Another (I know, I am so original, aren’t I?) TMNT Fandom(s) Rant
Author’s Note:
Alright, I had been really, really hesitant to post this, because I honestly feel like I have done too many of these (even though I have only like, done some posts and rb’s on this kind of stuff. And usually spaced apart too, but whatever), and because some of the stuff I am saying, I see even creators that I like sometimes say, and I don’t want to seem like I am mad and that kind of stuff at them. Even with creators I like less or I am more neutral towards, I don’t want to seem mad at them or too mean and stuff like that, you know?
But I came to the decision to just post this. Largely because I just really feel the need to say this, and because someone I know on here helped me give the courage to go ahead and post this. Thank you that person a lot btw!
Alright, now that my AN is done and out of the way, let’s get to more of the actual contents of the post itself. Starting now:
Like, I can not fathom, how people complain about the Rise turtles being nerfed, and will hold up certain fics/comics/whatever and say they love those fics/comics/whatever because they don’t nerf Rise, but usually/most of the time, those same comics or whatever that supposedly nerf Rise, will nerf the other version instead (usually 2012. Though sometimes other versions like 2003).
So nerfing u hate when it is done to Rise, but other versions, it is a-ok!, to nerf them! Wow okay, just wow.
And on the topic of Rise being nerfed, I won’t say it never happens, it does. But I honestly don’t see that much myself.
And I honestly, at this point, I more so see Rise getting so hyped up to (sometimes) ridiculous amounts, than I see them getting nerfed.
Rise are better, stronger, smarter, more amazing and awesome TMNT (and not just in ability/powers/strength/etc., but character and/or etc. too). They are also more violent and scary when they snap. And/or could be more scary when they get violent and/or snap. And I am not saying they couldn’t and/or wouldn’t be so. But that is REALLY downplaying other versions when you say stuff like that. Like, some of the other versions can be so violent and murderous and completely terrifying when they snap (and/or you just know they would be utterly terrifying if they completely snap) too.
Moving back to what I was saying before/earlier, not only are they better and everything I say above in the beginning of the last paragraph. But they can also beat any other version no matter what in anything basically. Because like, the TMNT Fandom(s) (or at least some parts of it/them) has now became the Shonen fandom where we argue about what, for example, our usually favorite person or group of ours can beat another person or group or whatever. This coming from someone who actually likes Shonen. But God, do I find power scaling, and “x can and/or can’t beat x” arguments to very annoying, stupid, and pointless most of the time, and usually just detracting from actually just talking about story, or character, or themes, or/& etc. And they are just tiring honestly.
Putting the rest under a cut, because this post gets long/is getting long, and some of the stuff below is the stuff that was making me worried about posting this. So I am putting this under a “read more” cut due to long, and in case people don’t want to read some of the (other) stuff I have to say here.
Seriously, I have literally seen posts and stuff, that basically say and/or imply that Rise are just BETTER than their other versions.
Which in turn, usually puts down both the talents of previous versions (i.e. for example. And this is just an example really, but it valid in most points. Leo and/or Raph’s own (innate) talents will be downplayed, and people will act like they don’t have their own talents instead are just the muscle and/or use their (strong) emotions to help them maybe win, in the case of Raph (which, nothing wrong with this actually at all), or Leo isn’t talented and strong in his own right, and only gets all of his skills and strength through hard-work and experience (which, there is nothing wrong with that. Some of the strongest and best people in the world in their own fields and/or etc., got where they were through mainly/a lot through hard-work and experience (even if some of these people were talented, they almost certainly, most of the time, wouldn't become the best, without actually trying and through hard work and experience).
And honestly, the amount of downplaying some people do. Not all, there are people who really respect hard-work and experience in this fandom and/or in general. And/or they are people that think characters or whatever or even cooler and/or better because they they work hard and/or etc. and become (even more) awesome. But the amount of people that downplay hard-work, experiences, learning through example, and all that is kind of sad.
It is like some people only care about (innate) talents (which, I am not saying are’t cool and awesome stuff too, but like, still) and not any of that. Or, and again basically, don’t think that even people that have (innate) talents still need to you know train and to learn and all that? You don’t (most of the time) become a master without experience and hard work. Even if you are talented), which in reality, all the turtles (and Casey, April, Karai, splinter, etc.) are a combination of both talents and hard-work and experiences imo.) and skills and strengths and experiences and even just their general character and personality and development.
And I am just like ?????? to (all) that.
I find all/some of that stuff I mentioned above (esp. the development stuff and/or etc.) funny, considering, saying that kind of stuff/some of that stuff, not only undermines other versions and other versions of characters and their characterization and development, but also (imo) Rise’s characterization and development, because it almost seems like you think they have less flaws as people and stuff than other versions (which, I don’t think actually think is true. I think all the versions basically have both flaws and strengths as people), and that they don’t go through development/don’t need development/need less development than other versions (which again, I don’t think is true. I think like other versions, Rise needs and goes through development and goes through their own awesome development like the other versions).
I mostly bring up characterization here too, since sometimes (not always), characterization and development can go hand-in-hand. Anyways yeah, when some of you say this kind of stuff, I wonder if you/they realize that they are also, in a way, kind of undermining Rise’s characterization and development too; along with the other versions.
Back on the whole “Rise is better” thing.
So like, I do see characters like Rise Leo to basically be everything (all the Leos) that has come before him, for example.
Which I love.
However, that doesn’t mean he is better. He wouldn’t exist, if not for the previous Leos, for the previous versions (and sometimes even current Leos and versions and their characters if you include IDW, which I do) and their characters.
Seriously, it almost seems like, and pardon my language, a pissing race. Instead of respecting and honoring the other versions, some people (seem to) instead act/talk like Rise are just stronger, most powerful, more skilled, and all around just better in every way (including their actual characters when I say in this like I have said previously and not just powers, skills, and all that).
And this all not even in taking into account genres. For examples: 2012 is more dramatic and serious, Rise is more comedic and light-heartened (not saying 2012 or Rise can’t be the other. Or have more genres in them. They can and do. I am just talking overall). Nothing wrong with either of those things. They are both great though. But different genres, are also important to take into account when you try to compare the different versions (in all way different ways). Though, I try not to do that, unless it is more positively/in positive ways. And because they are all great in their own rights. I find comparisons a lot of the times (not just with TMNT) to not always be the best thing to do, but that is just imo.
Anyways, that is all I have to say about genres for now (at least, until I can figure out a way to word what I am trying to say there better. I am still working on that).
Seriously though, I am getting so tired of all this.
I love both 2012 and Rise (and basically most/all the TMNT versions basically) so much; they are both a couple of my favorites.
But this kind of stuff is just getting out of hand. Imo.
My goodness.
Tagging some people here, because maybe they got more stuff to add, and they have made some good posts/replies/reblogs/etc., about this kind of stuff already, so I am curious on their would-be, maybe input (they don’t have to say or do anything with/about this post at all if they don’t want to ofc).
Disclaimer: I tried (and I think succeeded) not to name any certain people, fics, comics, etc., etc., in this post. I don’t want to cause anyone any trouble or grief here.
If you don’t want to read this post; either just ignore it, or block one or more of the tags I use in the tags. Like one of my rants and/or discourse tags.
Man, I wish there were more Good 2012 Leo analysis Posts on Tumblr (and just in general)
Like, I love, love seeing Rise Leo analysis stuff, and Leo is just such a good character in general, so I would love to even more analysis of him in other versions, you know?
Videos, posts, whatever; I would love to it in anyway.
Like, I do find some good analysis and meta and stuff for Leos besides Leos, but it/they are a bit harder to find.
And it doesn’t help, that when I looked up 2012 Leo character analysis, so many of those posts were just bashing 2012 or comparing Rise to 2012 (in usually not the best ways or even when it is not bad/bashing, I don’t really agree with the takes all the time) or etc., etc.
This is why, despite 2012 being one of my favorite versions,
(and honestly, I am starting to get a bit scared to look in the tags of a lot of TMNT versions (not just 2012; 2012 is just one of main ones/esp. ones/however you might describe it ones) besides Rise - who I am mostly okay with looking in the tags of, for the most part that is, besides crossover stuff, which I have grown to be somewhat careful about in general- , because there is just so much bashing going on nowadays and people going like “My version and/or my version of characters is better, and/or yours is worse”, “My version of characters are stronger, and could beat your version’s characters. They are better fighters”, ridiculous power-scaling stuff, etc., etc. Just a lot of somewhat annoying and tired stuff, that I have seen in other fandoms, and never really liked, and so ofc I don’t really like in TMNT. And with TMNT having so many versions to love, there can also be more of these kind of comparisons than even in some of my other fandoms. Including fandoms that have multiple versions or a lot of AUs and ATs and/or etc.
(Man, I wish people could just enjoy the good TMNT versions we have, which we have a lot of, instead of the almost/sometimes seemingly constant arguing. I know I am a bit hypocritical in me saying this. Like, as just a couple of examples, I do get into TMNT arguments and HxH (different versions) arguments myself ( I am not perfect), but I try not to the best I can. And when I do argue, I try to be respectful and/or to space out my arguments/”rants”/etc. Also, and most/a lot of the time I do, it is defend a version or etc. or to be like, “Yeah, that version is great and/or those characters are great too and/or strong/powerful and/or awesome/epic and/or etc.”, but so are the ones in other versions and/or etc., so we can not bring down (and/or etc./whatever) other versions and/or versions of characters or/& etc. please”?)
I kind of dread looking in it’s tag, and me looking up what I looked up, kind of cemented me still dreading looking up 2012 much at at all on Tumblr. Like, I found some good 2012 Leo character analysis (though most I had already read at some point), but I don’t know if that made me seeing the bashing and complaining and misunderstandings of 2012 as well, all worth it.
Man, I just wanted some more good/great 2012 Leo analysis. Damn.
Like, Leo in so many versions has major doubts about himself and his leadership and will think he is a failure, and also just in general has many character flaws, as well as strengths too.
Like, Leo is a perfectionist in most versions (including in Rise), but he is far, far from perfect. He tries to be perfect, he tries to not show his vulnerabilities, but that is because he is insecure about himself and scared of failure and scared of failing the people he cares about and losing them, and also because while Leo is/can be (very) smart (including in Rise for sure), he is not always the best at emotional expression and he tends to hide a lot of stuff.
Also, Leos and self-worth, self-doubting, and self-hating issues go hand in hand; not just Rise Leo, but basically most Leos.
Also, “stoic, perfect” leader. Yeah sure, Leo, the major dork, the huge fanboy/fan, who loves jokes, puns, space, space heroes (or Jupiter Jim in the case of Rise Leo), swords, martial arts, figures/figurines, stuffed animals, is a LARPer and/or role-player, (probably) likes DnD and/or has been the DM basically, gets excited about stuff/very excitable, will argue and/or talk about what show/comic/superhero/thing he loves is best and/or why something is worst/not as good, petty/can be petty, childish, pouty, show-off/a (utter) show-off, a showboat, is competitive/super competitive, can get very pouty about losing, can be a sore winner, can be a sore loser, will try to do anything to win at games/video games/whatever thing he is being competitive about, likes games/to play/has done games as training, trains hard, is such a child (at times), is such a teen, can hold a (major) grudge, rage/hatred/can have a very deep and/or slow-burning and/or cold and/or etc. rage/hatred/etc. basically, knows guitar, (I think) he likes rock and/or all types of different kinds of music, (this is more a head canon, and I am trying to avoid those, but I totally head canon a lot of Leos are also good at singing), some versions are quite decent/good artists, this is more of head-canon, but I “head canon” him to be a good writer and/or loves to write fanfic (I know I say I am trying to avoid head canons in this post a couple times, and for the most part, I am!, just let me have a couple) can be quite the good/a pretty good dancer, has fun partying (at times), him and Raph and/or Donnie and/or Mikey or depending on the version have silly handshakes and codes and all that, him and whoever is his “twin” that version doing twin stuff, him doing “stupid” stuff with/for his family and friends, has (silly) codes/code words/gestures/hand gestures, can get really into things.
Likes to mess around and do (sometimes messed up and/or weird and/or stupid and/or etc.) stuff just out of boredom/for fun/for shits and giggles/, because he thought it was funny, tea, bladed objects, martial arts, fighting and/or violence and/or patrolling and/or life and death battles and/or etc. because he is bored/for fun/because he is used to it, so without it he gets kind of antsy, paranoid (but just because you are paranoid doesn’t mean you are wrong and/or they aren’t out to get you), Japanese culture (and/or other cultures too), gossips/gossiper/loves gossip/loves to gossip, loves people who can go toe to toe with him in fight and/or beat his ass, does impressions of people (both out of love and to make fun of and/or mock people), is a jokester, who mocks people, will do and say really silly stuff and is just overall (very) silly, loves cute stuff, is funny, (, very unique, very interesting, and/or very different to me/imo) who gets flirty sometimes/can be flirty, who puts on makeup and goth/emo/punk outfits.
Loves gardening and plants and the night air, loves nature, can be a major city boy, has a lot of self-control/restraint, sometimes is other people’s self-control, sometimes is the only brain cell/one of the only brain cells/share of the brain cell(s) of the group, mature, immature, responsible, irresponsible, savior and/or martyr and/or hero complex, wants to be a hero (and/or a criminal), thinks powers and superheroes and/or whatnot/etc. are SUPER cool, spiritual, mystical, magic/loves magic, is sly, cunning, and clever, ethical and moral (but also sometimes, not really--it can depend), interesting morality/ethics/etc., observant, intuitive/strong intuition (him and Mikey are the intuitive and/or intuition bros!), skilled/highly skilled/talented, (but also,) very hard-working and trains extra/super, super hard, the world and/or universe(s) and/or etc. is important, but at the end of the day Family and Friends basically is always above all/comes first, honorable, though can and will trick and play dirty, emotional, unemotional, repressed, emotionally repressed (and/or constipated) calm, level-headed, patient, but not even his patience his infinite, so even he can get get/be impatient, & also so when he does actually blow up and/or lose his temper and/or snaps, God can be cold and/or scary and/or etc., scary/frightening/etc., tense (? Not sure how to describe this one), (ever-) evolving/changing/grows a lot/develops a lot/always more room to grow/can and will reach great heights but there is (probably) almost more room to grow (I know some of these are less traits or whatever, and more statements, but just bare with me with these/those, okay), and intense.
Can (very much) think he is useless, thinks he is nothing and his brothers/family/friends are everything/better than him/just thinks very lowly of himself in general, thinks he is nothing without his brothers, thinks he is nothing without Splinter, thinks he is nothing without his friends and/or family, thinks he is nothing without other people, always thinks he needs to do something, so much of the time he places others before himself; even at the cost of himself/even at the risk/danger of himself, wants to be useful, seeks love and affirmation and approval, a very external character in a lot of ways, but also a very internal character in a lot of other ways, introverted, more extroverted, something in-between or both in some way(s), secretive, sneaky, stealthy, a good/great liar, a bad/terrible liar, expressive, unexpressive, closed-off/guarded, pranks/is hard to prank/curious and/or is impressed by people’s pranking/people actually being able to prank him (he does get mad and annoyed too, but who wouldn’t), resistant, resilient, trauma/traumatized/tends to get traumatized, curious, playful and/or mischievous, earnest, eager, quotes his favorite things and people, probably write fanfics honestly, has a crush on Captain Ryan (and would probably kin that man), has legit mental issues honestly (I hope this didn’t sound harsh or anything like that; didn’t mean for it to be. It is something I find to be very interesting, relatable, and realistic about his character(s)), basically all versions of him are insane and/or crazy and/or feral (including Rise), doesn’t always have the best role models (probably needs some better ones and/or more ones), needs help; needs help in so many ways.
Cautious and careful, reckless, one-man army, solo player/can go solo, team player, rebel/rebellious, “goody-two shoes”/goody-two shoes (or is it “goodie” or is it goody two-shoes? Or something like that. Hm?), just genuinely so much angst and/or angst potential (as well as comfort and fluff potential. But the angst (potential) man, the angst (potential)), “mom” and/or “parent” friend and/or just mom and/or parent and/or dad kind of in general, leader, sensei and/or the/a boss, ninja, ninja master, ninja in training and/or still with a lot to learn (always) (even if they don’t think so), brother, good brother, never gives up--tries; just tries so much (though sometimes he just wants to give up. But God, he can be so stubborn and determined (and never give up about stuff) too ofc), headstrong, bold, confrontational, peacemaker/mediator, tired; just wants a break, doesn’t want a break/know the meaning of a break/is just so used to always (needing to) do/doing stuff, so he feels like he must always be doing something, does stuff till he collapses and/or his body gives out, self-care (but not most of the time, not really, really, the guy needs to learn better self-care and to love himself), disciplined, strict (sometimes), bossy, sarcastic, sassy, snarky, self-blaming, guilt-ridden, grief-ridden, criminal tendencies and crime (be gay and/or bi and/or etc. and do crime is the Leo way), can be very violent and murderous/murder (-y/-happy), but also very caring, loving and protective, self-sacrificing, self-destructive, sometimes even suicidal, has (had) hallucinations and stuff.
Can be a control freak/controlling for various reasons, will die and kill for the people he loves, is very relatable in a lot of ways, has had to deal with his own anger issues sometimes, smug, cocky--can be very, very cocky to the point of (seeming) arrogance, can be and/or seem self-righteous (and/or righteous), can be and/or seem hypocritical, can and does make mistakes, tries to make up for mistakes, thinks they might never be able to make up for a/their mistake, beats up themselves up over any mistake (no matter how small or big, or even if wasn’t their fault)/beats themselves up a lot in general, very hard on themselves, can have high standards for others at times (for various reasons; both good, some not as good, some in-between and/or both), but even higher for themselves, can sometimes be quite naïve, optimistic, innocent, and starry-eyed, can also be also be quite jaded, cynical, hardened, and disillusioned (depends where they are development wise and/or the version ofc).
Nice, mean, and everything in-between, tough, brutal, kind, gentle, compassionate, cringe (-y) and embarrassing /affectionate, cool, badass, determined, stubborn/stubborn as all hell!, the “Leonardo Hamato Instinct” since the 80′s; a term coined by @misteria247 that I just love and it is very true, prideful, internalizes and bottles emotions up like there is no tomorrow!, coping mechanism galore!, some bad, or better, and everything in-between (like Rise Leo’s humor and pretending he is okay and fine and that there is nothing wrong and all that; Leos in general go hand in hand with coping mechanisms), pretending he is okay and fine and that there is nothing wrong (I know that I said this with Rise Leo already, but it bears repeating; this is such a Leo thing, humor, dark humor & dry humor, dad jokes, corny, corny jokes, cheesy, cheesy jokes, ironic/ironic humor, can be stoic and/or serious, but there is just so much more to him than that, blunt, light-hearted, lively, tired, confident; sure of himself, not confident (insecure, like I already said), doubtful/doubting of himself and/or others, self-deprecating, self-deprecating “humor”, “therapy, what is (a) therapy? You think I need therapy. Nah, I am fine, I don’t need therapy; nope, not at all” Leo.
Wants to believe in the good people and give people chances, but sometimes is disappointed (and sometimes awarded for it) and/or even grows disillusioned with people, things, humanity, etc., has issues TM, total mother hen, can seem selfish/can be selfish, but really he is just/can just be selfless to the point of not giving a shit about himself at all, his loyal to a fault (for better and worse), can be under a lot stress/can get very stressed, has anxiety, probably some versions have PTSD and OCD and/or etc. as well, fearless (ofc he is, that is literally a nickname of his), but can also be quite very fearful/afraid, catchphrases/has catchphrases, rehearses lines, catchphrases, quotes, and stuff, is dramatic and/or a drama queen, likes fashion and fun outfits and stuff, manipulative, has eldest daughter syndrome, is both very rational, smart/intelligent, and logical at times; a great strategist; a planner--the/a plan guy, but can also be a big ol’ dummy, a true dumbass, stupid, a moron, etc. /affectionate, not always a team player (I know mention this somewhere else already, but I got a bit more into detail here kinda); can go solo for various different reasons (and this is something he needs to learn), and I mean various.
Has a huge burden on him and sometimes has just wanted to give up/quite/wanted a break, actually wants and craves freedom/to be free/to have less responsibilities, probably both loves being the leader and hates it, has identify issues/problems, has/had to be a/the parent a lot, resolute, can be cruel, cold, calculating, bloody, bloodlust (-y), will do what his enemies do, will go against what he believes to be good to protect the people he cares about, (I have more to say, but I don’t know how to word some of it, so I am not), etc., etc.; I could go on and talk about Leo forever, he is that deep and layered and just has so much depth.
(I also know some of these traits are kind of repeated and/or similar to other ones, but they are still, mostly different in some ways, and some things are explained differently and/or more in-depth/detailed, and/or etc. Most of these are very different from each other though).
Seriously, one of the most characterized, multi-sided/faceted, complex, human, interesting (just has so much range to him) characters in the TMNT franchise (including Rise, but previous versions too), is just the “perfect, stoic” leader; how laughable.
(The stuff I listed above about Leo; most of them applies to most and/or all(-ish) Leos, including Rise; some are more version specific. Also, some traits can be core traits, some traits are there or not there pre or post development and/or etc. Basically some traits and stuff depends on the timeline and where they are in their arc(s) development).
Might add some more stuff to this later, but I am not sure. This is already a lot/has gotten to be VERY long (though, like I said, I can talk FOREVER about Leo/Leos, hahaha), and some of the stuff I want to add I think gets more into/too head-canon-y territory (though, some are (more) canon and/or canon/real to me), or I might not really feel exactly comfortable posting; at least not in this post, because I don’t know if this is the right context for that/some of that, and I am not really sure how I to word it/ if I can word it right/correctly right now/for now. Anyways, might add more to this later, might not.
This is getting long, so more/the rest will be under the “read more” cut.
Also, saying Raph and Mikey are usually the ones to get the more interesting character arcs; which, I am not saying they don’t get good, and interesting characters arcs themselves, they do, but like, Leo gets some fricken great and interesting arcs too (heck, sometimes even tragic and/or dark(er) arcs/ones). Like, he is not one of the most complex characters in the franchise (imo) for nothing. He has had/has plenty of room to grow and has grown lots in so many versions.
Plus, Donnie is a very interesting and complex character too himself; with quite interesting arcs too.
Also, acting like the other Leos didn’t have their own doubts as leader and people and didn’t have to grow into their own as people and leaders is just ridiculous; did they even see/watch/read any of the other versions, like really?
Also, just severely boiling down Leo and Raph’s dynamic in other versions and why they butt head a lot sometimes.
Like, for example, Leo and Raph arguments about leadership isn’t even over who can be the better leader, or at least, it is not JUST that.
And a lot of their arguments stem from them wanting the same thing. Them both wanting to protect and/or do the right thing, but just having different approaches.
And etc.
And then there is the stuff about Rise Raph, and how they act like previous versions of Raph (or Leo, who like Rise Raph was also the oldest and the leader himself)
Like, they are trying to boil down and water down other versions and act like they don’t get mad out of protective reasons or because they need help and for someone to share the burden (Leo and Raph defin. get mad for protective reasons) with them; even if they won’t admit that or not and/or it takes awhile/a bit for them realize it is okay to share the burden and/or for it takes a bit for them to realize the other person has a huge burden placed on them, and/or etc.).
The also hella water and boil down Rise Leo’s character so much; both in that article and others. Like, some of the stuff they said about Rise Leo is as insulting and/or untrue as the stuff they said about previous and/or other versions and it’s characters (mainly Leo and Raph for this article I am mainly talking about here).
Uggghhh, it just makes my brain hurt. Like, so much.
I fricken love Rise Leo a lot (he is my favorite), but I also love Leo in general (Leo is just a favorite of mine in general), and not just Rise Leo. And while he is certainly a unique take in a lot of aspects, he is still very much a Leo; it is just certain traits of Leo’s are either shown or less shown with Leo and he starts off a with a different role and age position in the family, and finally has more of that freedom that Leo had always wanted. Rise Leo, still is a Leo at his core though, and God do I love Rise Leo (and Leo in general).
Rise Leo is still a Leo and I love him.
(Seriously, people sometimes seem to really misremember and/or misunderstand Leo’s character and/or don’t look under the surface enough. This includes both Rise Leo and other Leos).
Rise is able to be great and new and interesting, because previous versions were as well, and helped pave the way.
So many TMNT versions and versions of characters are great.
And love it/them.
Seriously though, CBR (and sometimes Screenrant and/or other sites like those two) annoy me so much sometimes, but I should have expected this, it is CBR after all; they don’t always really have the best takes.
Okay, rant over, lol.
Man, this got into more full-blown character analysis in some way and TMNT and/or TMNT retrospective in some ways, huh?
I guess I am just very passionate about all of this.
(Once again, like I have already said earlier in this post - though in this case I am talking about the whole post genially, instead of just the part(s) before the “Read More” cut - I might add more to this later, but for now, I think this is good/fine enough/enough.).
Just a Post (Kind of a Rant) about TMNT Fandom(s) and (Certain) Crossovers (also just kind of me talking more generally about TMNT?)
Okay, so this post was inspired by some other posts and reblogs I have seen (and just my own experiences in the TMNT fandom so far, and reading/looking/watching/etc. TMNT crossovers, esp. Rise x 2012 ones, and/or Rise x Whatever Version(s)). So of those posts I was going to reblog and/or link here, but I literally can’t find them right now, so for now, I am not going to. I might still link some stuff in this post (might be those specific posts if I can find them again and/or it might be other posts and stuff), I might not, I might /link/reblog them at a later date instead.
Anyways, I am making this post, because I am a huge TMNT fan, and I LOVE both Rise and 2012 (and many other versions as well! Like IDW and 2003 just to name a couple); they are a couple of my favorites, and I just want to see both versions portrayed well, and to see good crossovers between the 2 (and/or other versions), where both series are respected, and not bashed, mischaracterized(and/or demonized, infantized(?), and/or made fun of/mocked) a lot, nerfed to hell (I am not necessarily against *some* “nerfing, but it has to be used well, in modicum, and/or in a way that makes sense. I also don’t like it when only one of the series/versions/etc. is nerfed, and not the other. Not the like either being nerfed, but if they were being both nerfed, I would be *a bit* more okay with it), or/& one and/or one(s) is put on a major pedestal (I do this with series and/or stuff too though, so once again I don’t necessarily have an issue with people doing this, my issue, is when another version is put down while doing this). And/or etc.
I have genuinely become sick of seeing this.
More under the cut/”Read More”, because this gets LONG, and (maybe even more) rant-y.
I love Rise, I really, really do. It might have taken me awhile to get into and really love it, as an older fan, who got into it through 2012 and the OG TMNT live action movies, and then got into other TMNT stuff later on, like 03, IDW, 2007, etc. (still getting into stuff like Mirage and 87 and other comics currently), because I found some of the changes--to be kind of weird. However, I have grown to really like it too, and I have also read and/or watched stuff that actually explained how some of the changes weren’t as major as I thought. For example, Raph and Leo, are still them at their core (like, I have seen about both of them about this, but the stuff I have seen about Rise Leo and 2012 Leo and/or previous versions were really eye-opening to me; esp. as a major Leo fan), despite the changes. They are still Raph and Leo. If that makes sense.
It is just, as I have seen some other people say (I will try to find these posts and/or whatever and link and/or reblog them) how they would be if one was given the role as the oldest (Raph), and such, had to calm down more, and the other was given a role of a younger sibling (specifically, a middle child) (Leo), and thus, was given the freedom he rarely got to have, and always wanted (for example, 2012 Leo defin. wanted it). It is still them, just placed in slightly different positions, and we are shown, how they/these characters would/might be like in these new(-ish) roles/positions. At their core though, they both still share many characteristics of their previous versions, but their new(-ish) roles causes some dynamic changes (Leo and Raph’s dynamic is still great, like most other version, but now there is a slight twist to it), and certain core traits/traits of these characters from previous versions are either more amplified and/or get explored more and/or shown in (sometimes) different ways, more tampered down, or something in-between.
So yeah; once I realized this and/or was helped to realize this (since I have always really loved Leo and Raph and their dynamic; love Donnie and Mikey too though and their dynamic with each other and Leo and/or Raph), I enjoyed Rise more, and now, like 2012, and some other versions; I also love a lot. It has also been fun to see new, but also paying homage and/or respect on other characters and relationships/dynamics! Like, I have always been interested in Leo and Donnie’s’ dynamic, and wish it was explored more, and Rise certainly delivered on that for example! And so on (might add more to this later).
*Cough cough*; got a little off-topic there kinda. But the main point I was trying to get at, while I was admittedly somewhat put off at first by all the changes as an older fan (and it didn’t help that Rise came out so quickly after 2012 ended. That might have caused some of the older fans to be sour towards it; esp. with some of the changes, because it might been a bit “too much/too many changes, too soon”. So that is one of the reasons that caused Rise to unfortunately not be as well-received as it could have been imo. Like, I love TMNT a lot; I always want more good TMNT stuff in my life, but I do think it might have been prudent and better for it if Rise released a bit later), and as a major Leo fan and etc., etc., I grew to love it very much too. And I do understand why Rise fans might have been upset or might still be upset at how some older TMNT fans treated Rise at first and/or still are; esp. with Rise’s uncertain status (here is to hoping for another season and/or movie); however, I do not think that means Rise fans (this is coming from a Rise fan as well, and I don’t mean all Rise fans when I say this ofc) should be doing the kind of stuff (negative stuff) they are doing to the previous versions that they are (esp. 2012 for some reason?). Like for example, crossover type things/stuff.
Like seriously; good thing someone like me, who is an older/longtime TMNT fan myself loves Rise so much, and is so not easily turned away from stuff I love and enjoy (I am basically ride or die with stuff I love most of the time), because the way 2012 and previous versions have been treated lately by some Rise fans and/or in the fandom(s) might drive me away from the fandom(s) and/or Rise. Like I said, that won’t happen; I love Rise, and love so much of the fandom, but at the same time, I am starting to get very much sick of how some of the Rise fandom is treating 2012 and/or previous versions.
Like, it has come the point that even stuff (fics and so on) that say they aren’t bashing 2012 (I am using 2012 here, because it is 2012 a lot) and/or that they love 2012 honestly seem quite bash-y to me anyway.
2012 will seem majorly mischaracterized (esp. Leo and Raph. But the others too also don’t escape this treatment), and some of the time and/or some of it is sometimes just growing pains; them getting used to writing the character better. And that is something most people can relate with, so I give more leeway with that.
Or maybe they just need to refresh their memory on the/a version, or research it more, or finish the version, or etc., and I can understand and give leeway to that; I don’t expect people and/or stuff to be perfect or anything, ofc. My issue is, if they don’t get better at them, or just get worse, or they seem to be making them (kinda) ;OOC, for bashing reasons.
Or nerfing reasons, or to put Rise on a pedestal, and basically be like: “Rise is the better family”, “2012 is abusive and/or terrible”, “Rise are more powerful”, “Rise are better fighters and more skilled”, “let’s undersell/downplay 2012 version and it’s main cast, cast of characters, heroes, villains, etc.”, “let’s not undersell/downplay the Rise version and it’s main cast, cast of characters, heroes, villains, etc. Sometimes lets even oversell/overplay them” (I know this and some other stuff I mentioned are more opinion-based and/or subjective, which I know, and is fine and I get that. We all have different opinions. In this case though, I mainly have a problem with it if is overdone, &/or if one side/version so obviously being favored so much over the other), “Rise has no issues, while 2012 does”, “Rise is better”, “2012 is worse”, etc. Which is just pretty maddening and annoying ngl.
2012 and other versions (and I am talking about the cast in general for both), have been through and faced so much, and they, like Rise, have both their strengths and weaknesses, and own things they can bring to the table in battle, as people, etc. But nope, lets just ignore all that, to put Rise on a pedestal and act like they would just stomp all versions in a fight, writing wise, character wise, etc. When that is just no true (imo). Don’t get me wrong, Rise is a great series; I want more of it, but other versions are also great. And I do not like the disrespect of the previous versions going on here, and the specific kind of pedestal-placing Rise is being put on.
Like seriously, do you know hard it has gotten to find good Rise x 2012 and/or Rise x Whatever Version type crossover content?
It has become so hard.
I just have to read/look at/watch/listen to/etc. crossovers and just hope, both versions are treated well and with respect, and it isn’t a bashing fic, most Mikey-centric 2012 x Rise fics and stuff (if ur a 2012 fan, u will know what I am talking about here), that there is little to no nerfing, that both/all versions get some spotlight and awesome moments, and/or etc.
Like, even some of the supposedly good crossovers that people like, where there are supposedly no bashing, and people are actually loving how 2012 are characterized and think they are “on-point”.
(Which, honestly, just kind of makes me scratch my head, because with some of these crossovers, I just don’t see it. Like, I have read some really good 2012/2012-centric stuff which actually had characterization that was point; not like some of these fics and/or crossover fics where people say they are. Heck, even in comparison to some other 2012 x Rise crossovers which I actually love, and either have no or very, very minor problems with, I would say the characterization of the 2012 crew is better in those. This is all just my opinion though; I know other people have their own personal opinions and interpretations. And I am not even calling those crossovers, fics, and/or etc., bad; I just personally find some issue with them).
I am just like, but 2012 is getting pretty mischaracterized (sometimes very mischaracterized) here though (and in turn, so is Rise sometimes. Because a lot of the time, I see mischaracterization of 2012 and/or another version, Rise also gets mischaracterized too. Which, as a Rise fan, 2012 fan, general TMNT fan, I ofc don’t like very much. I love when people are as in-character as they can be), and/or nerfed, and/or I am seeing a “let’s highlight 2012′s issues; even though some of those issues were resolved, because characters develop, or don’t exist really in the first place”, and/or either “barely highlight Rise’s issues, act like they have none, basically show them as having none, or show so much later, that it sometimes kind of feels like, too little, too late”
(I don’t have an issue with versions working through their issues and stuff and/or teaching other versions stuff, as long as it makes sense, and isn’t being done in unequal, unfair, (very) biased way. I find this kind of stuff very interesting when done well. So much potential for stuff. Or like, imagine, all the versions getting therapy, but like, it is done in an equal way between the versions, if that makes sense, idk),
and/or “I am kinda getting some vibes that remind of those Mikey-centric crossover stuff (I am not saying all of them, but God is it a lot of them)”, “and/or etc.”
So it just kind of confuses me some. But at the same time; I can understand (or at least somewhat) understand why people like and/or love them. And while I say it confuses me; I do think I get why some people may think that, or at least I try to.
Like, the crossovers I am talking about here aren’t those weird Mikey-centric, 2012 fam are abusive and awful, and/or type crossovers here. Like, as someone who is a fan and loves the 2012 version; I don’t get why people like them, but I do some people do, for whatever reason. However, at least with stuff like this and/or similar stuff and/or some crossovers bashing on 2012/previous versions, I know more what I am getting into I guess, or I know soon enough? There are some crossovers that take longer for that to happen; to show their “true colors” so to speak, and crossovers where I almost feel tricked? That is probably too harsh of a word, but idk a better way to explain it. Maybe a better way to describe it, is that I don’t know what I am getting into as much??
Like a crossover will literally say no bashing/no 2012 bashing, and/or that they love 2012 (though sometimes when they say these things, their other tags, descriptions, posts, etc., will say a different story imo, but I digress. Maybe they mean that; heck, they probably do, but from an outside POV, it doesn’t always feel that way), and/or just seems like it will be a good, non-bashing crossover, but then as you go on/get into it more, you realize that nevermind it is, or at least kind of is, and/or the issues are just piling up, so even if I might really want to enjoy it,
(like there is this one 2012 x Rise crossover fic that so many people seem to be enjoying; people have made so much fanart of it, memes, etc., and it is already really long, and it is looking to be super long; chapter and word wise once done, so I would be fed on a really long, interesting premise, 2012 x Rise crossover fic for a long time. But the problem is, due to some of the reasons I listed in this post; I just can’t enjoy it. I really want to; I really do, but I am having so much trouble doing so, and that makes me sad. And that happens to other crossovers too. Other ones that have so much promise and potential, and/or say there isn’t any bashing and that they 2012 too (and/or that other version. So they love both Rise and 2012 and/or that other version)
and/or so many people seem to love it; even 2012 and/or previous versions fans and/or ones that don’t hate 2012 and/or previous versions, so I also really want to enjoy and love it. Sometimes, maybe even a lot of the time, there is stuff I do really like/love about it, but in the end the stuff that makes it unenjoyable usually gets to be too much (not always though), and I have to stop. Sometimes it takes longer though to happen, or shorter, or maybe, hopefully it doesn’t happen at all, and it gets genuinely better and even more enjoyable. But a fair amount of times, that last thing doesn’t end happening to me (at least not for me), and that makes me sad.
I just want more good (great even!) 2012 x Rise crossovers (I love these crossovers so much; when I can actually find an amazing one) and/or Rise x TMNT Version, or maybe even more than 2 versions crossover with Rise; is that too much ask!?
(Here is to hoping that the crossovers and/or 2012 x Rise crossovers that I do actually love, don’t go the way of some current crossovers that I don’t like very much and/or am starting to dislike, are going. And/or future crossovers also don’t do the kind of stuff I mentioned I disliked here as well, and are just, great instead, lol. Seriously though, there are some crossover(s) worry might start to become like I mentioned; esp., as of right now at least, the nerfing issue(s), for example(s).)
Is it too much to ask for us all (different versions and/or multiple versions lovers and fans and/or general TMNT fans) to be more respectful of each other and the other versions?!
Like seriously, we may not all agree on stuff, but we can still all agree on being TMNT Fans at least.
As as this post said (which I love the art and it so much. It is great. Please check out that creator by the way. They and their friend make a lot of good TMNT art, fics, comics(-ish), and stuff!):
"All that we are is made of those that came before us."
All current versions of TMNT and its character are built on what has come before. You don’t have to like the previous versions (even though I personally think so many versions are great), but at least try to treat them with respect or at least try not to needlessly bash it/them? You most likely wouldn’t have the version you love and/or the version of the character you love without that previous version. Also, almost ever version has it’s fans too.
Again, not saying you can’t dislike stuff, but can’t we all just be a little nicer (and I actually want more good 2012 again, previous versions stuff, crossover stuff, etc. Like how we are getting good Rise stuff. Instead of so much negativity and bashing. *Sheesh*!) to each other? Please??
Alright, kind of rant and really long post over. Might add some stuff to this later, like links and stuff. Maybe in the post itself, maybe in a reblog of it, but for now I am done with this post.
I say this post, because there might be some more posts and/or reblogs like this. And/or typing this; along with some other posts and/or reblogs I have seen, it kind of got me wanting to create my own post with good 2012 x Rise, Rise x ?, maybe even non-Rise Crossovers (that might be a separate post and/or reblog type thing though), and/or etc., like I have seen other creators do. It might take awhile for me to post though, because it is probably going to be long, thorough, and/or have sections, descriptions, the whole she-bang! This is only if I actually do it though; don’t hold me to it (and if I do end up doing it, it might not be for awhile, for various reasons, like I said) though.
Alright, done for now. I am going to actually tag the proper tags for this, because this took me awhile to do, and I also think people should see this. However, I am also going to be put discourse and rant tags as well, so for anyone who doesn’t want to see that type of stuff, just block that tag/those tags.
I am also put a “Read More” on this too, because it got long and in case people don’t want to read this type of post.
Man, I love my Last Recent Followers being Bots or Whatever
And when I say love; I mean not at all.
Like legit; my last last followers have been bots or whatever (who I reported and blocked).
And I have probably had more than too.
What disappointment.
(mind you, I am not that upset, but it is still pretty disappointing to be happy about getting some new followers; only to see they are all bots or what not)
Man, watching TMNT character analysis videos by a Fan that seemed pretty obviously biased towards one version over the other, that they weren’t fair AT all. Which just kind of sucks man.
Ok so, like, I found and was watching this person had made both 2012 and Rise character analysis videos (they had other, mainly analysis videos as well though), and they wee pretty obviously more biased towards and/or more unfair towards 2012 (like, I get everyone has their own biases, I get that. But they were just quite unfair w/ it/them imo). Like, I will give them credit for at least getting 2012 Donnie more than most, but they seemed to not have given Leo and Raph the same deeper dive. Which, to be fair, 2012 Leo and Raph have can be harder to “get”, w/ Donnie more in the middle, and Mikey kind of up down with that, but still.
Anyways, this person made analysis, though hey haven’t made one for 2012 Leo yet (can’t remember if they made one for Rise Raph yet either), though, considering what they said about him in the Rise 2012 video, I went from wanting to see someone trying to take a psychological look at Leo (there is A LOT to pack w/ him, like there is w/ the other 2012 turtles and he is a very interesting and complex character like they “tried” to do with others, because I think that is interesting, even if they didn’t really agree w/ their takes, I was still curious,) to not wanting to, because just from the bit I heard them say in Rise Leo’s analysis, I kind of don’t want to see that video anymore, if that is their take on Leo. Like, I love 2012 Leo and he is my favorite, Rise Leo is also my favorite and Iove him, and I get not liking either of them, everyone has their opinions. But like, for someone who is trying to look into the characters they are analyzing mentally/ psychological, it is like they didn’t even try to do so w/ Leo.
Anyways, it is the same old complaints people who are more prominently Rise fans tend to make:
Since this does get pretty long and stuff, I will put the rest under a “read more” cut.
The turtles are abusive towards Mikey, esp. Raph.
I am going to try to understand his anger issues, but at the same time, not understand that a lot of his anger issues is because of a fierce protectives and because Raph is a very emotional character (deep down), and also, ignore all the times Raph is very sweet and caring towards his brothers and people, because he is just “angry and abusive”.
Mikey is a perfect angel (even though Mikey has also pulled pranks, mocked, been sarcastic, and/or teased and etc. at times too) basically and people (like his brother(s)) are abusive towards him. I am not saying the brothers weren’t ever cruel or very mean to each other, but they are brothers of similar ages and teenage and ninjas and kids who lived in a very isolated environment and had a quite tough upbringing. Also, people rough house, esp. boys. Esp. brothers.
Heck, me and my own friends used to push and kick each other sometimes while playing and messing around (roughhousing and all that). And sometimes pretty hard/roughly too. Also, both Mikey and the rest of the turtles greatly matured as the series went on, and did that way less. Sure, they (and Mikey too) would/could still take things pretty far sometimes or be teasing and/or etc., but they were still young teenagers and/or young and had to deal w/ a lot of stress, stuff, pressure, and/or etc. no one of that age should have to.
God, I love Mikey too, don’t get me wrong, but it does get very tiring to see people (mainly Rise fans. And I love Rise myself too) saying that his brothers were abusive towards him.
Then 2012 Leo, while they they haven’t made a video on them yet (and kind of don’t want to them anymore. I used to, now I kind of don’t want them to), but they did say something in the Rise Leo video, which was that they were angry that 2012 Leo was just the stock stereotype “Leader” type, who just all like “follow my orders”. Which is just like, one of the most fricken shallow of his character I have ever seen. I have already rb’ed some Leo analysis on this post (you know, the more discourse-y one, where I got into a bit of an argument about 2012 Splinter), but I will probably rb some other good 2012 Leo analysis I have found later too on here, and I like those posts here. Because God, I get not liking 2012 Leo; 2012 Leo defin. has his flaws as a person. But he is a very good, well-written, tragic character, and to hear people be so superficial about looking into his character just makes me sad.
Like, if they said “I don’t like Leo because he can be really mean and controlling sometimes” (I am kind of quoting a good Leo analysis I saw/read here) , because he can be; though I like that part of his character, and I think it makes sense in context of his character, and I think it is interesting and realistic (there is actually a post I am going to rb and link that really goes into this), I could understand why you might not like him for this.
It is kind of like how I can kind of understand why people might not like 2012 Raph because he is also really mean sometimes and can get be quite angry”.
(not abusive though. Because I just can’t agree w/ the whole, “they, and esp. Raph, are abusive towards Mikey” thing. They are far from perfect, but I put down on “abusive”).
Like, there are reasons why they are like that and/or they mature from that. Or in the case of Leo, he loses his innocence and starry-eyedness and gets more and more traumatized and basically severely mentally declines throughout the whole series, while also growing up and maturing. There is a reason why I called him a tragic character. Or in the case he matures and calms down more (not saying he can’t still be angry, he can be), and gets more and more open w/ this love and care for his brothers and people (and has had multiple pets that he has cared deeply for). And/or etc. I could go on forever talking about them, but I will stop for now.
Anyways, I could at least understand people not liking 2012 Leo and Raph for those reasons, even if I disagree, unlike those other reasons (and others I have seen) I have mentioned here too.
Also, some comments in that video talked about liking an insecure Leo (which I do like w/ Rise Leo a lot. And Leo in general), like 2012 Leo wasn’t either? That boy constantly questioned enough and got questioned and though he wasn’t good enough, and very self-worth, and was basically taught his own life didn’t matter if it came to protecting his family or saving the world. Like, 2012 Leo was insecure (and had anxiety too, another thing I saw brought up)?? I can get liking Rise Leo for that, I do too; I am always happy to see that in my Leos (because I am evil), but like, please just don’t ignore that 2012 Leo was too. Maybe people just forget, so I will give them the benefit of the doubt here, but like, boy.
Also, if you are wondering why I am not talking about Donnie too much (even though I have also seen some pretty unfair takes on him by, usually more so Rise fans, and how they also, like the others, don’t really try to understand why he is like he is, or they completely focus on one or traits while ignoring others. This is an issue peopled do with the other turtles too. And others too. Like Casey and April.), it is because this creator had a more of a decent take on Donnie than they did the others. So I am letting it slide.
Also, I don’t completely agree
(though I also agree in some areas. I just take issue, and this less just this creator thing, and more like some Rise fans in general. That they tend to minimize the parts Rise wasn’t always the best father, while basically the opposite w/ 2012 Splinter. Like, I don’t think either parents were “perfect” fathers, including 2012 Splinter. But like, Rise fans act like Rise Splinter was a WAY better parent than 2012 Splinter. When I think, they were both flawed people, with flawed parenting styles (though for different reasons),
but also just trying their best, parents. Like seriously) on their takes on 2012 Splinter, but I do admit that at least partially comes from the reason(s) above; that I really don’t how biased and unfairly some Rise fans treat Rise and 2012 Splinter in comparison to each other. Again, I far from think 2012 Splinter was a perfect father (I can go on and on about his parenting really messed with his kids. Ofc, it helped them too. And he obviously loved them very much, and they loved him very much in turn. But the turtles did get issues from it too), but Rise wasn’t either, and I dislike Rise fans treating Rise Splinter like he was a way better father than 2012 Splinter, or that he didn’t have his own issues.
If you think I am being biased myself, I will admit straight up that 2012 is my favorite TMNT show, however, Rise my 2nd favorite, and I am being harsh-ish to bother 2012 Splinter and Rise Splinter here, even though 2012 Splinter is my favorite and Rise Splinter is my 2nd favorite.
So I won’t deny that I might be biased some, but also trying to as fair as I can. Esp. since I do love both 2012 and Rise (and God, would I love another season of Rise or another movie. I really, really hope we get them. Maybe even get some of the cut animatics from the movie and/or show worked into the show somehow, like (some of) Leo and Raph’s Leader talks and/or etc. Though, I still basically consider some of those cut animatics as canon. Because, I want to, and that s that, lmao. Would love more 2012 too, like a season or maybe even better, a movie of the amazing quality as the Rise movie; which I loved so much. I know that/those isn’t very likely, but a person can dream. Would also love a great, and fair (no bashing of either, and/or putting one on a pedestal over the other) official crossover between the 2, but hey, at least I have found some good crossovers to fill that want for now).
I just don’t like bashing and/or people being unfair towards one series and/or it’s characters or the other.
When it goes either way. I am mainly talking about how Rise fans (despite being both a 2012 and Rise fan myself) are treating 2012 in this post, because that is what I saw with this creator and what I am seeing more of in the TMNT community/fandom as of late.
I know 2012 and previous iterations of TMNT weren’t always fair towards Rise, and that isn’t good as well. But like, that doesn’t mean you (some Rise fans) should basically do the same thing to other versions that people sometimes once did to it!
Like seriously, man!
Alright, I am done now; it is over. Sorry for my rant.
I love the TMNT fandom and Rise and 2012 (really love 2003 and the comics, esp. IDW too, to name some) so, so much, but I really hope this kind of stuff stops soon.
Can’t we also just show love and respect and fairness towards the versions of TMNT. Or at least, be less bash-y about it and/or more fair and stuff.
We are all TMNT fans here, even if we do have our favorites.
Welp, it looks I learned my lesson. Be more careful of takes and/or analysis I found, esp. when both 2012 and Rise is involved. And esp. when YouTube is involved! YT was my biggest mistake in this case. This is what I get.
Now the Ask Option Just Isn’t Showing Up For Me on Some Blogs
Thanks tumblr, truly. /s.
And I haven’t sent the max. neither 10 asks in 1 hour or 5 anon asks in 1 hour, so it isn’t that.
For example, on https://unofficial-underfell.tumblr.com/ blog, the ask option just isn’t showing up at all, even though there is literally asks from today (or at least they are posting them today) on that blog, so I should be able to send an ask, but I legit can’t find an option to do so.
So thanks tumblr, you hellsite. I still like u more than other sites though (like twitter and FB), esp. community wise, but you are still a glitchy hellsite.
I sent a help support ticket for this (and some tagging issues), so I hope they can fix this, but, my hopes aren’t too high for that.
