Hello all! Since it is Halloween/Samhain/Calan Gaeaf/the start of harvest season, today's post will be about spooky moments in Greek mythology! There are plenty to choose from, but I'm going to go with one in particular.
(I'll also be making a similar post on @kalatordevesta about Roman religion & mythology!)
The story I choose is the one I chose in the title! Persephone going into the Underworld. Now, katabasis (descent into the Underworld) myths are a dime a dozen, found everywhere from Shinto (Izanagi descending to find Izanami) to ancient Mesopotamia and Sumer (Ishtar/Inanna finding their lovers) to Greece, of course! (Orpheus, Heracles, Odysseus...) Even Egyptian mythology's sun god Ra makes the nightly trek into the Duat on his solar barque.
There are a couple different versions of the Hades and Persephone myth, which is the specific one I'm discussing in this post (and even more in modernity, i.e. Hadestown.) One I particularly like, however, is the Homeric Hymn to Demeter's version.
You can read it here!: Homeric Hymn to Demeter - The Center for Hellenic Studies
A couple things I really like about this story; one, the focus on the mother and daughter relationship between Demeter and Persephone, two, the fact that Homer never actually uses the name "Hades" because the fear of death was so prominent in Ancient Greece, and three, the fact that Hekate leads Demeter through the night with her torches. I find it both really sweet and a good example of a narrative guide.
Horror aspects of this story: Kidnapping, of course, including the fact that Persephone is simply picking flowers when she's taken. Demeter turns around and she is gone. That's terrifying for any parent.
The torches & night. Hekate guiding Demeter through the night with torches feels like classic horror symbolism to me - night is already scary; having a small light like a torch is almost scarier, because you can only see some of it, not all of it.
The pomegranate. Persephone eating a pomegranate and then being destined to spend six months every year in the Underworld? Trapping. Also horror; to be trapped by your own actions and unaware that they will do so.
The winter. Demeter causing a winter and humans to starve - a natural, primal fear, that humans have feared since first walking on this planet. Now; an interesting thing is originally this may have described summer, because summer in Greece is very, very intense and horrible for plants. Scorches the earth and dehydrates the plants; often with droughts. I like both versions, but I do found the summer fact fascinating.
Now! Some other stories that I find fit right into the horror genre:
-Erisychthon. Also a story involving Demeter, this king chopped down a tree in Demeter's sacred grove and she sent the spirit of hunger, Limos, to be with him forever. He ate and ate and ate and could never be full, and so, eventually ate himself.
-The entire concept of Medusa. When I was little, the idea of a monster that could turn people to stone absolutely petrified me. (ha!) When my afterschool program put on The Lightning Thief movie, I covered my eyes and cowered in fear from Uma Thurman. (The sole thing that movie did well - besides eating the lotuses - is the woman turning to stone and Annabeth HOLDING HER HAND WHILE IT HAPPENS. Terrifying.) I'll also talk more on @kalatordevesta about this, because of course the Ovid story involves further horror.
-Odysseus and the Sirens. Your ears clear, hearing exactly what you want? Tied to the mast and desperate to dive into the water, knowing it will drown you? Absolutely terrifying. Also, I like the look of the traditional bird ladies, nice monster design. (Though, I appreciate Jorge Rivera Herrans' take in Epic.)
-Heracles. When Hera drove him mad, he killed his first wife and children - it's what set him on the path of his 12 Labors. It's tragic and horrific.
How to apply this to worship: While this post was largely focused on the myth side rather than the worship side, I still apply these things to worship! The first part is acknowledging that the gods - and heroes - aren't all good. They aren't bad or good, just like humans. They have emotions. They can feel terror and fear. Simply acknowledging this - Demeter's grief, Heracles' madness, Medusa's terror; shows that the gods and heroes (and even monsters) aren't just one thing. The other thing I do is apply these stories into worship. For example, one time when I prayed to Demeter, I recited the Homeric Hymn. This isn't a traditional practice by any means, but I felt a sense of eusebeia (piety) doing so. These stories can be used for meditation, recitation, or just something to think about.
Khaire Demeter, Khaire Persephone, khaire Heracles, khaire Odysseus, khaire Limos, and happy Halloween! Happy Calan Gaeaf and happy Samhain, and may your fall be prosperous. :)
I don’t know if this is something other people find funny, but I do get a little laugh out of it every time a piece of modern media portraying Greek mythology treats the daimones (daemons) as something completely separate to demigods. Because, um, what the fuck did you think daimones translated to?? Hello? That’s literally just the Ancient Greek word for demigod?? Why are we acting like the daimones are some totally different species of monster??
I have noticed a lot of people saying that there's "no such thing" as a harmful spirit or a spirit who means you harm in Hellenism. Aside from no religion, cultural, or spiritual belief system being a monolith, I wanted to share an alternative perspective on this notion. In my beliefs, there are harmful spirits within Greek teachings, lore, etc. If humans can suck, so can anyone else lol (don't @ me this sentence is a light-hearted joke lol). Whether you believe this or not is up to you (some Hellenists do, some Hellenists don't), but I thought I'd share in case this does resonate with anyone.
Disclaimer: I would never classify every single spirit within one spirit type as harmful, as all (or at least most) spirits naturally have autonomy. This is just stuff in general in Greek teachings, oral traditions, etc. I likely won't be touching on tricksters because I've mentioned them many times before, but you can read about them briefly here and read other potentially related posts by viewing this table of contents. Additionally, this does not apply to every region, era, community, family, or individual, who is Greek or follows Hellenic teachings. This is simply a brief intro based on historical findings, cultural teachings, etc. Lastly, just because a spirit is harmful, that does not make them evil or negative in nature (many are neutral), and I am not implying otherwise with this post. Please keep this all in mind. Thank you!
Table of Contents:
Keres
Nosoi
Phonoi & Androktasai
Lyssa
Eris
Cacodaemons
Uranus
Cronus
Zeus
Cyclopes
Kampe
Sisyphus
Tantalus
Common Responses / FAQ
KERES
The Keres (Ker when singular) are female spirits, personifications of violent / cruel death (as opposed to daimon and psychopomp god Thanatos, gentle / peaceful death). They are inescapable by man, but directed by Zeus and other gods. Sometimes they are recognized as agents of Moros (Doom). At times, they are recognized as daughters of Nyx, and / or sisters of the Morae. They are often described as scary or terrifying to see visually. Naturally, spirits like this on-duty don't fare well for the lives of men. You can learn more about them here (Theoi) and here (GreekMythology.Com).
NOSOI
The Nosoi are described as spirits of plagues, disease, pestilence, and / or sickness. They are daimones, personifications similar to the Keres or Thanatos. They were some of the many harmful spirits that were released when Pandora's box opened. It is noteworthy that Apollon and Artemis' bows were givers of disease or contagious fatal sicknesses (like plagues), which showcases that even deities can be harmful as needed as well (something a lot of traditional practitioners often note, highlighting the natural neutrality and duality of some deities). The Nosoi are noted by Hesiod as well, which you can learn more about here (Theoi). Though the Percy Jackson books, written by Rick Riordan, are controversial in the modern Hellenist community, Riordan also serves to highlight various traditional monsters and figures in Greek lore such as the Nosoi, which you can read about here (Riordan Wiki). Project Greece also talks about the Nosoi briefly here (Fandom Wiki). You can also read an alternative take about how the Nosoi possess various boxes as Horsemen of Pestilence (a common association) here (Tumblr).
PHONOI & ANDROKTASAI
If you aren't surprised yet, then learning about the Phonoi may or may not shock you. The phonoi are personified spirits (daimones) of murder, killing and slaughter which happen throughout daily life (such as serial killers, assaults, and so on). Their sisters, the Androktasai, are the personified spirits (daimones) of murder, killing and slaughter as it happens specifically on the battlefield (so wars, organized attacks, etc). I'd like to take this opportunity to highlight even more spirits, written by Hesiod in Theogany, all of which are siblings of the Phonoi:
"But abhorred Eris (Strife) bare painful Ponos (Toil), and Lethe (Forgetfulness), and Limos (Starvation), and the Algea (Pains), full of weeping, the Hysminai (Fightings) and the Makhai (Battles), the Phonoi (Murders) and the Androktasiai (Manslaughters), the Neikea (Quarrels), the Pseudo-Logoi (Lies), the Amphilogiai (Disputes), and Dysnomia (Lawlessness) and Ate (Ruin), who share one another's natures, and Horkos (Oath)."
You can learn more about these spirits here (Theoi), as well as here (GreekMythology.Com) and here (Myth & Folklore Wiki).
LYSSA
Lyssa (alternatively, Lytta) was the god (sometimes considered one of primordial status) and personified spirit (daimona) with domain in divine wrath. She was the spirit of things like blind rage and crazed frenzy (which at times can be fruitful in a protective manner, other times - as seen in myths regarding Heracles, which are mentioned here (GreekMythology.Com) - are unnecessary and detrimental), but also rabies (which is never not harmful, even if philosophically viewed as necessary or natural). She is depicted in ancient Greek art next to victims, such as Aktaion (Actaeon), which you can read about and more here (Theoi). She is noted as the daughter of Nyx (primordial goddess of the night), who sprung from the castrated penis of Uranus. You can read another perspective on her influence on Heracles here (Greek Legends and Myths). You can also learn about the illness called lyssa here (PMC). Lastly, you can read here (MAIRC) which refers to Lyssa as Mania and provides further citations.
ERIS
Eris is a goddess and personified spirit (daimona) of strife and discord (and sometimes, chaos, though that would not be her main domain or primary influence, as that would belong to the Primordial Chaos). She is also sometimes noted to be the goddess and spirit of contention and rivalry. She was noted in lore as relishing human blood and having disagreeable nature. As a deity, she of course had pros and cons to her domains and was worshipped for a reason, but that does not negate harmful nature or depictions of harmful behavior historically. You can read more about her here (Theoi). She is noted in modern media as evil, which I wouldn't necessarily suggest, but the depictions are inspired from her harmful behavior, which you can read about in Rick Riordan's books or here (Riordan Wiki). You can read about her here (GreekMythology.Com) as well, and here (MAICAR) for even more information. You can see this Reddit user noting her story of sparking the Trojan war here (Reddit). There is more perspective on her that you can review here (Greek Legends and Myths). You can go over her academically here (Study). This resource here (Greek Mythology Tours) talks about Eris too, and here (The Collector) as well.
CACODAEMONS
"Cacodaemon" quite literally translates to the name "Harmful Spirit." I could end that here, but I'll educate more. The evil eye in this belief system symbolizes misfortunate, which is his primary symbol - Agathos Daemon (Good Spirit) is the spirit who nullifies the affects of the evil eye, the opposition of Cacodaemon. Some think of Cacodaemon as an evil spirits like demons, others believe him to be the source of misfortune in general. He inspired the names of medical diagnoses which revolve around the concept of possessions, and noted for hostile behavior in nature. You can learn about him in this resource here (Theoi). You can read a perspective on him here (Demopedia). The encyclopedia notes him here (Encyclopedia). Even non-Hellenic witches take inspiration from stories of Cacodaemon, and you can read one of those resources here (Occult World), which is not inherently historically accurate (compared to the resources given above) but again, is a work of inspiration based on the stories and nature of the Cacodaemon. There is also an insect named after the Cacodaemon - this insect feeds on fungi, and you can read about it here (iNaturalist) and here (Insect Images), and here (Tumblr). Again, the Cacodaemon has been noted in modern media as a villainous character with interesting (or even despised) archetypes, which is reflected in the Percy Jackson series as well, which you can read here (Riordan Wiki). Lastly, you can read more about him through an academic lens here (Study).
URANUS
Uranus. Need I explain more? But on a serious note, this guy has been noted to rape Gaia violently and was slain by his son for it. This is taught in some Classics courses in various universities, including one I attended as a Classics student. This is a resource that censors this situation, but does note his "cruelty" and you can read about it here (EBSCO). Uranus is also noted to have locked his children away, causing Gaia much grief, which you can read about here (Theoi). In this written perspective, Uranus is noted to have castrated his own son, learn about that here (iAltEnergy). This resource also mentions how various deities in myth sexually assault various figures, read here (EBSCO). Spiritualists also note the "oppression" of Gaia, which you can view noted here (Medium).
CRONUS
Many Greeks considered Cronus to be a personification of both positivity and negativity as a figure of Time, but that doesn't exactly negate the fact that he ate his children. Again, as noted in my disclaimer, not all harmful spirits are evil ones. You can read an overview of Cronus here (Theoi). We all know his stories and tales, so I don't think I really need to spend time adding more resources, but do feel free to send an Ask if you'd like to see some anyways!
ZEUS
There are tales after tales about Zeus. He is noted as a grand, kind deity, but also a disloyal and offensive one, in myth. One story I would like to highlight is that in which he turned into a shower of gold in order to "consummate his lust" (as this person from Quora put it) and assaulting Danae. I would also like to highlight another noteworthy story known as "The Rape of Europa." It inspired a movie that you can learn about here (IMDB), it's depicted in various museums which you can see displayed here (Gardner Museum) and here (Liverpool Museums), and in specific art pieces as noted here (Gardner Museum). In this story, Zeus turned into a bull - a creature known for its capabilities to be brute and dominate humans - to rape Europa. In some academic texts, such as this one here (Brill), Zeus is titled the "Master Rapist." There are other stories as well of him assaulting other women, including Hera, Alcmene, and Leda. All of these are popular stories that you can look into and find various takes on.
This resource specifies "illicit relationships" in reference to Zeus, you can read it here (USA.Edu). You can learn about Zeus in general here (Theoi). In most stories of Zeus sexually assaulting women, he did so via transformations, which you can learn a tad bit about here (Pink Dolphin). This resource highlights "adultery, pedophilia, rape and incest" performed by Zeus, read here (Ancient Origins). I would like to again specify that I don't inherently believe that Zeus is an assaulter, especially of this nature, but just because I don't believe that does not mean I can discount the importance of such oral traditions and the messages they carry. Many Hellenists base their beliefs on these stories, so I decided to include Zeus for a more myth-based example, as compared to spirits such as the Cacodaemon that just exist spiritually in Hellenism.
CYCLOPES
In some stories, cyclopes are positive and even helped Zeus during the Titanomachy. In other stories, they are monsters or beasts who eat animals and heroes. This resource here (GreekMythology.Com) notes this duality throughout the eras. The Homeric hymns noted them as "gigantic and insolent" giants who "devoured humans" and "neglected agriculture," which you can read more here (Theoi). You can read more perspective on these beings here (Greek Legends and Myths) and here (ThoughtCo). In modern times, Cyclopes are depicted in modern media usually as an opposition to various heroes - yes, again, this is seen in Percy Jackson, but it's also noted in retellings of Odysseus' story, such as showcased in Epic the Musical (though I would argue that the young Cyclopes in Epic the Musical was right to be upset about his baby sheep being hunted lol).
KAMPE
Kampe (alternatively, Campe) was a monster who guarded the imprisoned Cyclopes (slayed by Zeus when he was freeing them). In most depictions, she is a guardian, but that doesn't change the fact that she was guarding an unjustly jailed race. Depending on how you see this, this could be considered a depiction of harm, and certainly is seen as such with other spirits and even humans in modern times (the story of the Cyclopes in this case was that of oppression and freedom, after all). You can learn about her here (Theoi). You can read about her briefly here (GreekMythology.Com), too, if you like. This resource here (Mythus Wiki) talks about her also, as well as this resource here (Greek Myths and Legends) and here (Olympioi) where she is noted as a spirit her invokes dread and tells a story of bridge and conflict. This resource here (Tumblr) I didn't fact-check but thought I'd include as a more modern depiction of Kampe rather than a historical one, highlighting her name as a species of positive spirits but with rageful fighting tactics.
SISYPHUS
Sisyphus, in an act of defiance, inconsideration, trickery, and cruelty, bound Thanatos. Not only was this noted as a traumatic experience for Thanatos, but spirit bindings are incredibly harmful, dangerous, and unnecessarily torturous, often equated to kidnapping, forced labor (enslavement), imprisonment, restriction of autonomy, and trafficking. People who do this without much education in new ageist communities consider themselves "Spirit Keepers," which alone is a questionable name in this case. Thanatos was bound twice in Greek Mythology and Ares was bound once as well, and in one story Hephaestus bound various Olympians, but for purposes of this post I'd like to give a long list of resources highlighting Sisphus' binding of Thanatos specifically. They are as follows:
"This punishment was a result of Sisyphus tricking Thanatos, and binding him in a dungeon, causing mortals to cease dying. The gods were disturbed by this abnormal phenomenon and sent Ares to release Thanatos who then came looking for Sisyphus once again. This myth highlights the importance of Thanatos, as if he were to stop his job of delivering shades to Hades, then men would stop dying, which even the Gods cannot ignore." - "Art in Death"
"Thanatos then fell for the oldest trick in the book, though, to his credit, it was perhaps less old at this time. Sisyphus asked Thanatos to demonstrate how the chains in Tartarus worked and so trapped the god of death in his place. Soon, there was chaos on earth. While death being unable to fulfill his duty would have been good news for the mortals, Ares, the god of war, was sent into a rage; the battles he orchestrated were now futile. Releasing Thanatos from his embarrassing bind, he turned Sisyphus over to the god of death once more." - "Thanatos: The Greek God of Death"
"In a few memorable myths, Thanatos found himself bested by mortals. Sisyphus, the king of Corinth, was even so bold as to bind Thanatos in chains when he came to take him to the Underworld. Sisyphus was thus able to escape death for a time. But his actions led to a dangerous crisis: with Thanatos in chains, death had been—temporarily—abolished." - Mythopedia
"Zeus then ordered Thanatos, Death, to chain King Sisyphus down below in Tartarus. Sisyphus was curious as to why Hermes, whose job it was to guide souls to the Underworld, had not appeared on this occasion. King Sisyphus slyly asked Thanatos to demonstrate how the chains worked. As Thanatos was granting him his wish, Sisyphus seized the opportunity and trapped Thanatos in the chains instead. Once Thanatos was bound by the strong chains, no one died on earth. This caused an uproar especially for Ares, and so he intervened. The exasperated Ares freed Thanatos and turned King Sisyphus over to Thanatos." - Greek Myth Wiki
"In another myth, Sisyphus was a criminal who trapped Thanatos in a sack so that he wouldn’t die." - "Thanatos: Greek God of Non-Violent Deaths – Personified Spirit of Death"
"He [Sisyphus] may have asked Thanatos to demonstrate how a pair of handcuffs worked and then locked them on Death himself, or he may have used some other trickery to entrap Death in heavy chains.
"In any case, Thanatos found himself a prisoner in Sisyphus’s house. With Thanatos (Death) locked up, no one could die—no matter how gruesome the injuries suffered. The headless, bloodless, mortally wounded, and disease-torn continued to walk the earth, racked with pain and begging for release. Finally, the war god Ares set Thanatos free and delivered Sisyphus to him." - Greek Myths
"As Thanatos was granting him his wish, Sisyphus seized the opportunity and trapped Thanatos in the chains instead. Once Thanatos was bound by the strong chains, no one died on Earth. This caused an uproar especially for Ares (who was annoyed that his battles had lost their fun because his opponents would not die), and so he intervened. The exasperated Ares freed Thanatos and turned King Sisyphus over to him." - Brewminate
"Sisyphus, however, tricked Thanatos into trying on a pair of handcuffs and thus took him prisoner." - Garg Wiki
Various bindings of Thanatos have also been recorded here (Theoi), to the point that the link to the Theoi I just included is a direct link to Thanatos' page, not any binding-specific stories. You can read another depiction of this story here (A Classic a Day), but I will note that they describe Thanatos in a historically inaccurate way ("merciless").
There is also a non-religious book inspired by Thanatos' binding, "The Thanatos Syndrome" written by Walker Percy. This novel utilizes Thanatos (referencing his story of being bound by Sisyphus) in metaphor. Description of this story: "Set in the near future in Feliciana, it tells the story of an imprisoned psychiatrist who is freed and returns to his town with the active members demonstrating new mysterious behaviors." You can check out this book here (Amazon).
Aside from the binding of a literal deity, most tellings of this story note that a lack of death is good for mortals, but many also note the certain imbalance this unnatural phenomenon creates (which is also showcased above). Sisyphus did this for selfish needs or desires in almost all of these stories.
Because I figured why not, here (Theoi) is also a link describing Ares' binding in a jar. Briefly put in this source, "When the Aloadai giants laid siege to Olympos, Ares battled them but was defeated and imprisoned in a bronze jar. He was later rescued by the god Hermes." However, this source also has the full recorded story if you scroll down more.
TANTALUS
Tantalus is a guy who killed his son, chopped him up, and served him to the gods as a way to test them or win his freedom, depending on the story. Yeah, simply put, it sounds bad. And, guess what? Read the full story, it sounds bad too. I don't see how this could be described as anything other than harmful. For this cruel deed, Tantalus was given the punishment of eternal strife and hunger in Tartarus, but what makes is life even worse is that this was not his only offense. You can learn about his story broken down digestibly here (GreekMyths-GreekMythology.Com). This source here (Pantheon) has an overview of him as well. This source here (GreekMythology.Com) outlines his cruel actions against his son and the gods, this source here (Greek Legends and Myths) and here (Mythopedia). Lastly, this source here (Theoi) shares that Tantalus was "[a] king of Lydia who served his slaughtered son at a feast of the gods. As punishment he was condemned to eternal torture in Hades."
Now, some of you may be wondering . . .
. . . why I included spirits, gods, and mortals in this list. That's because, again, Hellenism is not a monolith, and to strip an entire religion or culture of spiritual, witchy, folk, or traditional lore and customs and art and traditions because it doesn't fit your personal alignment would be irresponsible on my end.
. . . why I included traditional evidence rather than modern. That's because we should be learning from the very people we claim to be learning about, and respecting traditional practitioners as many still exist today. Additionally, I believe there is importance in these stories, they carry values and lessons and messages. Lastly, I did include a handful of modern sources just to appease the audience and find something relatable to those who were previously uninformed.
. . . why I include sources based on myth to be used for a religious practice. Though I do acknowledge that Greek myths were written to not be taken literally, not every single aspect of every single story was believed to be false. If that were the case, none of the gods would have even been worshipped, and their domains would have meant nothing. Yet, the gods existed in religious customs, the heroes existed in religious customs, the spirits and monsters existed in religious customs, and so on. Though they are stories, they weren't just stories, they did (and do) carry some weight. Additionally, some modern-day Hellenists do believe that the myths should be taken literally, and I respect that and wanted to include such in this post. Also, not all Greek practitioners just . . . post their sacred beliefs online, especially nowadays new ageists blatantly disregard their customs or drag their traditions through the mud (not all new ageists of course, but many). If you want to learn more, go find a traditional Greek practitioner to learn from, I'm not here to mentor you, just making an info-post. Lastly, I made a point to include resources that most modern-day Hellenists use for religious context because of their records of historical contexts and noteworthy pieces (art like pottery, writing, and more), such as the Theoi Project - if you don't like that, don't cherry-pick. I know this comes off somewhat aggressive, so I want to clarify that my intent is not to be aggressive, I'm just quite fed up with some people so I'm just not sugar-coating either. If this applies to you, it applies to you, and if it doesn't, then it doesn't.
. . . why I didn't include resources from modern Hellenists. This is because many modern Hellenists are uneducated, and also, I'm not going to search through random social media profiles and hundreds of posts just to find that one with the key word "harmful spirits" in it. My goal here is not to do the work for you - this is a religious practice for a reason. This is a starting point to your own research, and an info-post highlighting stories many of us are already aware of and that many acknowledge in their religious practices.
. . . why I didn't include tricksters. This is because I already have a couple posts about tricksters, and not all tricksters are harmful spirits just as not all harmful spirits are tricksters. Though people in Hellenism may experience controversy over believing in tricksters or not, there is also controversy about harmful spirits so I wanted to highlight that specific wave with this post.
"I still think you're wrong!"
That is completely fine. I'm not here to dictate anyone's beliefs or convert you in any way. This post is aimed to serve those who were previously uneducated, so that you have a choice in what you believe. I think education should be accessible, and as long as you're showing the initiative and taking ownership of your practice, whatever feels right to you is none of my concern and not my worry. If this post resonates you or teaches you something cool, that's all I like, but if you're just not into this whole concept, it's completely okay to just move on with your life and keep doing what you're doing. I don't judge anyone for following what they believe, and I think too many Hellenists fight about what's "right" or "wrong" these days and it's annoying. The factual evidence of historical context and traditional work is here, but your personal religious practice is intimate and your own to determine.
"I believe this is disrespectful to the gods!"
Did you personally ask every single god that and they gave you a clear, concise response saying so? No? Then I don't care because I don't respect when someone tries speaking for other autonomous beings as if there are zero methods to find out from them yourself. I think that is disrespectful and many spirits also do to my knowledge. I think we forget that deities are autonomous and more than just figures of light or power. They are individuals with emotions that you don't have a right to decide for them. I work with various spirits / deities, including many Greek ones, and I assure you that many of them actually agree with me. But that's just me and my practice, all I'm saying is I'd rather believe the direct source then someone who's been worshipping for five months telling me otherwise because that's what you personally thought. Now, if a spirit approached me and was offended, then alright I admit that I'm wrong. Just hasn't happened yet for me in my spirit work. If this post offends you that much because I'm noting various storytellings and historical artifacts, then keep scrolling because that just means this post isn't for you and that's okay. It doesn't make either of us wrong, it just means we have different approaches to how we regard others and your approach isn't mine to determine and vise-versa. You do you, boo, there's nothing wrong with that as long as you don't try to force it on others.
"How dare you accuse these spirits and GODS of being evil or doing wrong?"
With my own damn mouth.
JK.
Like I said in my disclaimer at the top of this post, and throughout this post as well, I do not believe any of these spirits, deities, figures, whatever you consider them, are inherently evil based on these things. I think there's more nuance to any individual than that, and I think there's power in balance. Apollon himself was a deity of duality. Aphrodite was a goddess of both love and war. Hephaestus was dismissed as handsome or a husband but treated as the greatest inventor of all. To force perfection would disrespect my traditional teachings, and disregard a lot of important aspects of these lessons, myths, and practices, in my honest opinion. So it's not a matter of daring to question a deity or insult them, just admitting the complexities of a religion / culture that deserves to be admired for all of its hard work and beauty.
I will also note, I fear no person - human, spirit, or god. I do not care if you created the entire universe, we are all equal and I will treat everyone as such, and I expect to be treated as such. I am no lesser because I am different in nature - even the ancient Greeks did not believe such. So their status of "god" though I respect it, will never stop me from speaking my truth or highlighting someone else's nature. In fact, it's more respectable to different gods to be thorough and educated about the religion / people they originate from, in my experience.
"If this is all true, why do Hellenists not believe in protections?"
This is a nuanced question as some do and some don't.
Those who do usually believe in thinks like prayers, or just . . . magically expecting a deity to protect you because you asked them to. But I think that's really rude if you're not doing anything to protect yourself, and it's honestly disrespectful to ask a god to do his work for you. Even ancient Kings had their knights, and we put locks on our windows these days. Spiritual or religious or witchy protections are no different than mundane ones, and they're equally important, in my opinion. Traditional Greek practitioners had and have a wide variety of Greek protections, which I'm likely gonna make a post about soon.
Those who don't are either uneducated in traditional customs, don't resonate or align with those customs, or both. Usually. All of this is really up to the individual.
As someone who carries Greek teachings proudly, I can say that not all Greeks lack protections. Some of us just don't post the aesthetics on Tiktok for the world to see, and that's okay, it shouldn't be as looked down upon as it is.
"The gods will smite anyone who brings harm upon others!"
Even if I were to believe this was the case, you're still admitting that you need protections. In order to smite someone who brought harm upon others, they need to bring harm upon others. Make sure you're protected so you're not one of the people they're being punished for harming.
"What Greek gods would endorse this?"
Here's a list of Greek gods I work with or have worked with recently:
Hephaestus
Aphrodite
Primordial Eros
Persephone
Apollon
Hermes
Thanatos
and a few others.
I won't speak on their behalf, but I have shared with them that I am making this post and some of them actually guided some of my viewpoints or research. That's my experience, so take that with what you will, but you asked lol.
"How would I even speak to a god?"
If that's a path you wish to take, there's a few options. Before doing anything, I recommend cleansing and setting up thorough protections. I would also make sure you understand how to properly research different topics.
After that, I would learn about:
Proper vetting
Spirit communication basics
Spirit types and alignments
Tricksters
Divination methods
If you don't wish to communicate yourself but wouldn't mind going to someone else for it, my first recommendation is to find an Oracle. "But Oracles don't exist anymore!" Yes, they do, you just haven't found them yet. I know a Roman Omnist Oracle personally, I've trained in some Oracle teachings myself, and various spiritual, religious, and cultural communities still have Oracles or practice Oracle work. It is a highly respectable status. Oracles may be harder to find because they're usually very traditional, but that doesn't make it impossible, you just need to put in the work. Oracles are some of the most experienced, knowledgeable, and credible workers of any community.
If an Oracle isn't your preferred route, then you can try your average practitioner instead. Their quality of work won't reflect an Oracle, but that doesn't make their practice bad or wrong either. Just make sure you're educated on who you go to:
Where do their beliefs come from? Originate? How did they find them or verify them? Are they new, old, unique to them? Am I okay with this? Do they seem knowledgeable? Can they prove their knowledge? Do they have reviews? Have they talked to other knowledgeable practitioners - were they academics, new age spiritualists, traditional pagans? And so on.
Look into how they perform it as well, like tarot:
Are the trained in deep divination work? Do they know spirit communication basics? Do they have protections set up? Do they cleanse their deck? How do I know their interpretations are accurate? How do they come to their conclusions - intuition, hearing the deities, just assigning meanings to the cards? Is there nuance and the meanings they decide, is there space to question? Are they an ethical reader? How long have they been doing this, how much of that time have they spent actually practicing and learning? and so on.
I have many posts I made, and resources I didn't make, on various topics listed above. Check out my posts or the links in my bio to learn more.
Conclusion
At the end of the day, your practice is your practice and I respect that. That's why I made a post instead of copy and pasting comments on other people's stuff. But I also believe it's important to respect those with different beliefs and practices, and especially those based in tradition, even if they don't align with what you do or modern-day trends, which I'm not seeing a lot of to be honest. We are all valid in believing what we believe, so I wish there was less dictatorship and forced conversion within the Hellenist community. I know you guys seek unity, but squandering diversity is not the way to go (this is directed at those who do shame others for believing in harmful spirits, not those who don't).
Spirituality, witchcraft, and culture, are deeply tied to Greek Polytheism, customs, and traditions. If you want to ignore some or don't include some in your practice, that's perfectly normal, but to steer others away from doing the same or to claim that "no one has ever practiced that way" because you don't think they should is just arrogant. Everyone should have access and the right to deciding what they believe for themselves. For those of us who do believe in harmful spirits, this is important lessons that actually help us connect deeper with positive spirits and deities and ancestors and the like. For those who do believe but are shamed against it, are put in real danger because they're encouraged to dismiss protections, knowledge, and their own autonomy. It is wrong. I know many people are hurt by forced conversion, but that doesn't mean you should go around and convert others back.
As a final reminder, this is not directed at the Hellenist community as a whole. If you're not hurting people or shaming people or what have you, then good on ya, this isn't directed to you. This isn't even directed to those who do to be honest, it just keeps them in mind as a likely audience. Like I said, the goal here is to offer an alternate perspective just in case somebody finds it helpful or resonates. I'm passionate about this as you can tell, and I believe that it's important to respect others. Even when upset, there's no need to force conversions or call names or make people question their beliefs and who they are because you don't like the sound of it. That's wrong, and I hope this post serves as ways to avoid that and opens some minds about some traditional Greek beliefs. Thank you for your time.
Thank you for reading!
Please share if you felt that you learned something valuable. It is much appreciated!
What do you think the difference between a spirit and a deity is (if there is one)?
Hi, thanks for the question! There definitely is one, but in my experience, it's neither an easy nor reliable distinction to make in every case.
For one, there is a lot of relativity: these are English words; other cultures and languages may have more specific and varied terms. And indeed "spirit" in English is very vague. And for another, many stories show us examples of individual spirits or mortals becoming divine somehow.
In my experience, there's a tangible difference in the way a divinity feels. This shouldn't be the main factor to distinguish deities from other beings, but I have noticed it, somewhat by accident. With deities there's a sense of vastness, like when I pray to them I am peering into another place. There's a multiplicity, like they are (or are in) myriad things and places at once. There's also a distance, not in terms of space but in terms of disposition or attitude maybe. As if they are seated, listening, smiling, not exactly reacting.
Spirits that I might categorize as daimones, sub-lunar beings, or similar entities often seem a little bit more solid, less expansive. They can certainly still be expansive, but there's a sense of a singular being that is in the room with you, rather than a sense of peering off into flashes of the cosmos. They tend to appreciate offerings in some ways similar to deities (the gesture, the dedication, the honor) but many kinds of spirits actually want the substance of offerings in a way that's more akin to human 'eating' than with deities. They also tend to be slightly more relatable or happy to meet you on a more egalitarian playing field.
Not only are these points subjective and insufficient, there are also important exceptions to them. For example, when I pray to my ancestors I get a similar sense of peering in somewhere else, and of vastness. When I pray to Hekate, I usually sense a more spirit-like presence or absence, solidity, and conversationalism.
Even within modern and modern-anglophone traditions, there are gray areas of this distinction that are (and should be) debated. Angels, for example - whether Christian or otherwise - could be considered a form of emanation from a divinity. They carry, embody, and concern themselves with the will of the divine/of divinities. Whether they even have free will is debated. Similarly, other more autonomous daimones can also wear divine authority like an emissary would.
Spirits can be vast and gods can be niche, but there are still noteworthy distinctions in their authority. Gods hold a greater authority in general, and spirits usually either answer to them or actively serve them in some capacity. Just like with human leaders, though, their authority can be hard to get in minor matters, and you'll have a hard time ensuring their investment in your concerns and will find them harder to access; unless of course you know them or know someone who knows them well. Therefore, other forms of spirits (and in this case especially human dead) are generally a little more invested and a little more accessible. But this is a great time to reiterate how intensely generalized I am being. Most of these points could be acutely refuted, and rightfully so. But I hope they painted a picture of what my experiences have given to me, grains of salt included.
Thanks again for your question!
