#demon roster

[eirikrjs]

I can't believe we don't have a good insect race to counter the Vermin. if this "good bug" race were to be introduced, which characters do you think would make the cut?

Hmm. Such a "good bug" race would have to be the inverse of the Dark-Neutral Vermin, so Light-Neutral. It might be called Insect. What might be in it?

Let me list (it won't be a lot):

(Solomon's) Shamir: The maybe worm that could cut through hard materials like stone for the construction of Solomon's temple. Asmodeus is involved in its acquisition. The stories surrounding this thing are quite interesting!

Ah-Muzen-Cab: Maya god of bees and honey. One of the difficulties with a non-Dark "Bug" race is that there aren't many bug-like figures from myth or folklore that might be considered Neutral or Light affinity, at least that would justify being placed in such a themed race grouping. Cultures worldwide seem to agree that bugs are kinda icky and like to exist in the shadows. Bees are exceptions, if only because they produce honey. But even then, it's not like bee gods are incredibly numerous. Ah Muzen Cab from Smite:

Penanggal: My favorite little bee protector fellow. Being in a "good bug" race like this would be quite the glow-up for it.

The "Myrmex Indikos"/Gold-digging Ant: An ancient game of telephone that somehow turned small mammals/marmots living in desert zones of India into giant, furry ants. Would the people who believed such things were possible back then be the equivalent of today's Bigfoot truthers?

[eirikrjs]

We all know that the Japanese media has a strange obsession with Europe. Do you think this obsession has influenced the demon roster?

A "strange obsession?" I don't think there's anything strange about it. Japan is one of the countries that successfully resisted European Christian attempts to proselytize. That's going to leave a mark. Of course, it's much more complicated than this.

This is a topic I touched on for the Fan Myths series:

DEBUNKING 30 SHIN MEGAMI TENSEI FAN MYTHS, PART ONE: #1-15

2021 marks the 17th year of Shin Megami Tensei’s existence in the West and while that’s not exactly an auspicious number it’s certainly long

Under Myth #7. Also note the bit about the cultural "booms" (ブーム; crazes/fads) Japan used to go through. As far as I understand, these booms often resulted from NHK documentaries about said subjects. Apparently Cu Chulainn/Irish myth was one such boom during the 80s, and is why Cu was even in Megami Tensei in the first place (apart from "Fairy King").

So yes, I think Japan's own history with the West, not something "strange", has affected the SMT demon roster, as evidenced from this old demon origins bar graph done circa Nocturne in 2003:

How the categories are defined is not as straightforward as you might expect, though--"Europe" is mostly stuff like Norse and Greek and Fairy demons more than Christian ones. Angels and demons tend to get slotted under "Middle East." Some examples from SMT2 Akuma Daijiten:

For both Archangel and Gagyson here, the "Origin" (出身地) is given as Israel.

[eirikrjs]

In your opinion, who is the most surprising absence in the entire SMT franchise that hasn't become a demon/persona/beast/etc. at this point? Really not sure how to word this better, but you can think of the question involving the entire history/mythology of the world.

OK, this is going to be a two-part response along with another ask.

Great question, though it's one with near-limitless answers. Many of those listed here are included thanks to input from the likes of @purseowner4thequalityanimation, @yamayuandadu, @blazescompendium and others:

Gilgamesh: Pretty much everyone agreed on him straightaway.

Marduk: Another huge Mesopotamian omission, SMT's track record with this region is pretty lousy, tbh--here's looking at you, Inanna.

Indra: Has technically appeared before but it's been so long he's due for an update. Could even be Buddhist-tinged.

Hermes: Very well represented in Persona, but for some reason has never crossed the aisle. However, in the Doi era, the Greeks have garnered increased attention and new designs on the regular and I think it's only a matter of time until we see Genma Hermes.

Kappa: Just a regular ol' kappa is the first creature that came to mind. Have it be a low-level buddy and make it cute and Doi should have an easy win on his hands--instead of the creepy one that's likely to remain in limbo.

Buer: There's no reason why Buer couldn't be as popular a Goetia demon in SMT as Decarabia! All he would need to do is simply exist and roll around. I guess Bloodstained beat them to the punch on that front, though. That's what Atlus gets for sleeping on so many perfectly good If... designs.

Brahma: Why has completing the Hindu Trimurti never been a priority? I would surmise it's because Brahma is significantly less important than Shiva or Vishnu, plus he's not much of a martial deity; I think this significantly limits his utility in the God-battle-shonen framework of SMT.

Fujin (and Raijin): A trip to Kyoto is surely all that's needed to remind one or more Atlus staffers of how iconic this pair is to the old capital.

[eirikrjs]

Do you think they tend to intentionally steer clear of certain well-known mythological characters in the series(like brahma,gilgamesh,greek demigo heroes like Heracles and achilles,rest of 12 greek gods,frey and freya,kappa and more)?

I swore there was a comment that shed some light onto this, like that the Greek gods are already too popular or something, but I can't find it where I suspected it might have been. If any one can corroborate that they know what I'm talking about, chime in!

The best I can do is suggest that the extra Greek demons in Kyuuyaku Megami Tensei were rather difficult to encounter, like they didn't even want you to find them.

It's flimsy "evidence" but between stuff like this, the very obvious gaps in the compendium, and early SMT's penchant for obscure creatures and minor divine figures, it's easy to notice a pattern.

[eirikrjs]

Why are there so few Korean elements in Japanese media in general (even though the two countries are geographically closer to each other than to China)? smt features only two characters, in contrast to the dozens of characters found in Chinese mythology. other works. In other works, I can't even recall a single Korean character.

OK, I can't say I can explain the lack of Korean stuff in JP media in general, but @yamayuandadu told me this when i shared the question:

"Despite the geographic closeness and early influence, China and even India played a much larger role in Japanese imagination than Korea for centuries at a time.

"Ex. compare how rarely Korea is to be found in medieval Engi narratives VS. random small time Buddhist kingdoms immortalized via Buddhist sources."

And, finally, this one surprised me:

"Mizuki offers little Korea-wise too for instance."

And then @hmoneytuts added the folowing:

"Cultural erasure from colonization could be a part of it.

"The Abacus and the Sword" is a book about Japan's colonization of Korea. EDIT: I flipped through this one a while back, it's a collection and translation of diplomatic communications leading up to Japan's colonization, and you see a lot of insults on both sides."

"I personally think it's an immature thumbing-of-the-nose sort of thing which isn't uncommon in China-Japan-Korea.

"Like how Korea calls itself 'Han-guk' and Japan calls them 'Kan-koku,' how China called Japan 'Wa'"

I can chime in on SMT and my own experiences in Japan, foremost of which is this incident:

Eirikr is Stealing Knowledge

And now for something completely different. A few weeks ago while waiting for friends in Osaka near Yodoyabashi Station (which is near Osaka

Yeah, I was standing pretty much exactly right here. I can also add the anecdote that, when I was teaching at the high school in Osaka 12-14 years ago, the kids there loved K-dramas and K-pop. So maybe more Korean rep in JP media is just something that's going to change with time as younger, seemingly more pro-Korean generations get their shot at it. Especially now with Korean pop culture's popularity being at its zenith worldwide. I mean, I live in rural Pennsylvania and I heard KPop Demon Hunters songs on the radio, two days in a row this week.

As for SMT, Korea is just one of the many cultures underrepresented in the series. Really, it can't include everything. It's almost kind of a miracle Baek Yong and Dokkaebi (read the Profile section here for some illuminating design insight) are in there in the first place. By far the most represented culture in SMT is Japan. And who is going to argue why it shouldn't be? Unless the scenario calls for it, SMT is going to default to Japanese demons for its China-Japan-Korea needs. And now that we get only one new game every 3-8 years, the roster is only going to continue to stagnate. Not sure what else to add except "we have no idea who calls the shots or why" to the eternal question of "why is or isn't X or Y in SMT?"

[eirikrjs]

Muspell is a bit of an odd demon, anthropomorphizing Muspellheim, I wonder why Nifelheim wasn't done in Soul Hackers. What would that even look like? Would it be a similar concept to Muspell?

Oh man, Muspell. It's one of those demons that I seriously researched once upon a time and didn't come up with anything definitive. I think it's just supposed to be a generic jotun of Muspellheim, though--one of those under Surt's command. From the Prose Edda:

A "son of Muspell"? I guess that's the best bet.

I don't think a generic "Nifl" would have a reason to exist, as equivalent giants don't live in Niflheim. The other major giant race is the frost giants; so one might this guy, only icy, I guess. It's the kind of thing that may have existed if they made model edits during the PS2 era as fervently as the sprite palette swaps and edits of the SFC games. They should honestly do this for the new games! It's interesting and would be a cheap way to add needed roster variety!

Like what if Daemon here could be reduced in size and finally become the Imp so many thought it was in the first place?

[eirikrjs]

What percentage range do you think this series has of featuring new demons from Chinese ethnic minority myths(especially those ethnic minorities that have never been seen before)? i think that most works about chinese myths neglect those groups. it would be great if we get demons from hmong,nuosu(yi),manchu,qiang and more. (you can check about nuosu book of origins. very crazy)

Do I really even need to answer? I think you already know.

The Nuosu Book of Origins is at least currently available on the Internet Archive.

The most obscure demon in Megaten with a verifiable source remains Tingkat. It will likely never be out-obscured. And it's only in Soul Hackers thanks to Shigeru Mizuki, who was a mainstream source in Japan for these obscure creatures from around the world.

Demons from the myths of these obscure ethnic minorities are improbable in this era of SMT because:

they're unlikely to result in palpable hype/excitement for the game (people who are not hardcore myth nerds, i.e., the majority of SMT's audience, are not going to rush to buy the game because Y they've never heard of from X myth system they've also never heard of is in the game--this is the "demons as promotional material principle.") This of course unless Doi can make one into a HOT BABE with like long legs, a huge ass, wide birthing hips, and classic FFs overflowing from a skimpy top. Never underestimate the gooner Doi principle.

The "Lone Wolf" principle--It wouldn't be very exciting or meaningful if one of these obscure myths gets added with a single design/demon, because, you know, new roster slots are scarce these days. How is it going to interact with the greater, established SMT demon roster? Nuosu demon Y would, at best, be forced to spend eternity accompanying mainstream Chinese demons like Nuwa or Zhong Kui, and that wouldn't be much fun, would it? It's like a Hydrogen Bomb vs. Coughing Baby situation within the greater SMT framework.

More to your point, SMT is no longer a series where many dozens to hundreds of demons are added for every game. At most we get perhaps 2 dozen now. If this were still 1997 and there was no need for the majority of the new to be plot-relevant...maybe you might see one of these.

[eirikrjs]

why is vasuki drake? he is shiva's snake and even if he spewed out poison, it was not his intention. his race should be dragon or snake

Ok, ok, ok, ok. Reminder that you only need to ask me something once, twice after maybe a week or so has gone by--not every day. Please follow some common sense (and netiquette!).

Anyway, I have a feeling the answer to this one won't be all that exciting. Vasuki's design has always looked a bit sinister to me--but not necessarily evil. We need to find out the intent behind him, so to the profiles we go:

They all seem to repeat this same info. Nothing particularly nefarious implied, it's all the standard myth stuff. And yeah, I don't think the "potent venom" is the reason.

So what gives? I think he's Drake (Dark-Chaos, 邪龍, "Wicked Dragon") for two reasons:

First, the other possible "Dragon" (species) races in Devil Summoner were already full:

Snake on left, Dragon in middle, Drake on right. Snake and Dragon sure don't look full , do they? Particularly Dragon. Okay, so "full" is maybe the wrong word, but with race selections you sometimes have to allow for a certain amount of gameplay priority or "balancing." Take that level 70 Vasuki is the highest-level demon of the Drakes, ranking him above Snake's level 67 Ouroboros but below Dragon's 78 Zhu Yin. Also, all three of these demons were new for Devil Summoner. One Light (Zhu Yin), one Neutral (Ouroboros), one Dark (Vasuki). Balance! And it's hard to argue against Ouroboros and Zhu Yin being where they are. This left Vasuki to fill the Drake slot.

And now the second reason (which I think may be more of a stretch):

Shiva is one of the series' most archetypal Chaos demons (and probably the best representative of Light-Chaos). So would it be proper for his neck-snake to be of a Light or Neutral race? Probably not! So why not Dragon, then? Yeah, that's where I gotta just 🤷‍♂️ Guess they just had to have Zhu Yin in there.

And as we all know, once a demon has been assigned a race, this (usually) never changes.