#engage discourse

[problematic-fe]

fates and engage only caring about royalty and reiterating time and again that the health of a country's leader is the health of the state is suspicious as shit. but the fates/engage communities aren't ready for this conversation. or any conversation involving negative aspects of the games for that matter

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[skelezomperman]

On "Discussion = Good Story" with FE3H

I wrote this originally as a reply to someone on Discord, but I think I want to dump this on Tumblr for future reference. The person whom I was talking to asked about a point that I see being made a lot with the Three Houses vs. Engage discussions: "Three Houses had a better story and you can see because it had enthralling discussions that lasted for a long time." I don't really take a side because both of these games are degrees of "eh" to me (though I'm currently playing Engage) but here's my thoughts on this point.

Firstly, I need to address the elephant in the room. There are indeed people who spend hours every day looking for opinions about fictional characters that offend them about fictional characters and hunting them down. I don't exaggerate - there are groups of people who still do this to their day across various platforms for a game that came out nearly four years ago. It is very, very sad that this evil has not only taken control of their lives but has compelled them to cause harm to other people (and I don't mean "they said mean things," I mean actual harm like stalking). But this isn't unique to our fandom. People do this a lot because people are susceptible to misbehaving. I'm personally bitter about this entire affair, but I don't want to immediately bring down 3H just because of the bad behavior of a few people. That's immature.

To the broader point of discourse, it was really bad around late 2019-2020 and even into 2021. I think a contributing factor was that people had retreated into echo chambers which make them think their side is good and think the other side is bad. If one keeps seeing "bad takes" from the other side and keeps getting exposed to that and circlejerking about that, it makes one get a very warped perception of the community. Many people still have this warped perception, even, that the community has an inherent bias towards or against one side. I cannot underemphasize how bad it was and to an extent still is - it even caused a moderator on the r/fireemblem subreddit to resign, citing the 3H debates as the cause.

I will say, however, that I don't think people who are citing increased discussions from 3H are wishing for these kinds of crazy shitfests. It's more that people perceive that deeper discussions were happening at all with 3H's story, whereas with Engage there hasn't been too much deep discussion on story. I don't think people are wishing for Engage to have generated "ultras" in the same way that Three Houses did - they're not saying that 3H is good because of the tribalism it caused. (I would also note that most people have move passed 3H discourse to the point where even an innocuous post asking "why did Edelgard start war?" will get mass-downvotes and accusations of OP being a flamebaiter.)

That said, I still personally disagree with the point that 3H is better because of discourse. I don't think increased discussions is an inherent sign that a story is better written. There were a lot of holes with the Three Houses story which contributed to confusion which in turn contributed to discourse. Let's not mistake confusion between different points for an intricately crafted story.

[problematic-fe]

"engage fan persecution complex", y'all are exhausting.

when people will literally attack or harass you for liking the game, when you simply want to talk about anything outside of the gameplay and are always told that none of it - or your thoughts - matters, when people love to constantly remind you how bad engage was? (don't get me started on the 3H comparisons) it does grate after a while, and makes liking engage in this fandom a hellish experience. at some point, you do have to block out the haters. and i'm fortunate to have a group of friends I can have nuanced and thoughtful chats about this game with, but that's not always so easy to find because people treat it with complete indifference, or such extremes at both ends.

just because you don't see the shitty behaviors engage (and I'm sure fates) fans have had to deal with, doesn't mean it hasn't, and isn't still, happening.

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[problematic-fe]

The franchise queer representation is pretty bad. Between Fates being frankly offensive on multiple point (Only gay options are a stalker and a depraved sado-maso guy, Soleil entire character, Forrest, no kids despite the child mechanic being nonsense of the highest degree), 3H being queerbaiting the video-game (feat english translation censorship for some reason), and Engage just giving up and making everyone bi (improvement I guess) while also cutting any paired ending because god forbid someone marry someone else than the self-insert.

The older game solve this issue by being painfully straight (outside of a few bait). How did Tellius ended up being the best about it ?

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[problematic-fe]

Maybe we could've gotten a paralogue in which Mauvier explains why Elusia worships the fell dragon in the first place.

Engage has so much going on with its setting that it is frustrating to see it all take the back seat because Engage it's not just its own setting, but a celebratory title.

I remember a post that went into detail about the kind of materials each nation provides and that was cool but not everyone picked on that because the game itself barely did.

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[problematic-fe]

I feel like Dimant/Ivy's greatest sin as a ship is that it has potential to be interesting but in canon, the writers immediately makes sure that there is zero conflict between them for reasons I can't fathom. I guess it's the writer's being too obsessed with Diamant being a wise and level-headed future king, so he can't be shown harboring any resentment about Ivy being complicit in his father's death? Or Ivy being distrustful/mad at him because Brodia has tried to invade Elusia multiple times.

Which kind of makes the ship "enemies to lovers" for people who don't actually like "enemies to lovers".

That being said, I don't know how the ship's fans handle it in fic. If they do more with their drama than the writers, then kudos to them.

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[problematic-fe]

fe engage is 100% over the top cartoon insanity with design and story, exactly like Tokyo mirage sessions, but without any of TMS' camp silliness.

I got into the series from playing engage, and thought it was alright, and the characters were mildly endearing, but after playing so many of their other games. Dang. Even TMS - fire emblem's most disliked video game probably - is better. Heck the first fe warriors was more fun and endearing.

and the more I play other games the more disappointed I am with engage. like that cool story beat I thought was fun and original - taken from fates (most of them are tbh), that mechanic? done better in 3h, the vocaloid/ v-tuber design vibes? Tms did it better, small-ish map with travel and conditions? awakening already did that. Every story beat is awakening and fates rehashed into slop, every mildly interesting character trope-y thing - already done with more depth in other games. I thought the alfred twist was amazing, but Lysithea almost does it better, and she has so much more in terms of personality. Alfred had illness and fitness and goof, Lysithea has so much more and the illness. Like. Alfred was my favourite character in engage, and Lysithea is not even top 10 in 3h, but I can see she's better written.

I know there's backlash against engage hate because 'you guys only hate it because you hate whimsey' or 'you are clouded by nostalgia' or 'you only liked big political fodlan and aren't a real fire emblem fan' but as someone who got into the series from engage, the only positive thing I can say about it (aside from some mechanics, and three or four fun characters) is that it looks really exciting on the box art, which is the reason someone bought it and introduced me to fire emblem.

Also I love Mika Pikazo's work by the way - so its not that I just hate the style or anything

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[problematic-fe]

Alfred is possibly the worst way to deal with chronic illness and pain ever.

Well if I pretend I'm fine and over-excersize and over-work and ignore the fact my body hates me and this lifestyle I'll be fine!

His dialogue is so weird and concerning. Like I just want to him and the rest of his friends and colleagues to sit down and actually discuss what disability support he might need. He lives longer with the pact ring, but I'm sure like 90% of that will be Alear telling him "nah you need to rest and eat and sleep properly. Come on now. Overdoing it is not telling everyone you're super healthy and making sure no-one worries, it's just being stupid."

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