#fantasy invader

[raxistaicho]

Revisiting Fantasy Invader's elemental nonsense

My recent post tackling Emblem Xeno's whiny anon got me to delve deeper into how the Chinese elements interact with one another, and it reminded me of an older post I did addressing some truly screwy symbolic analysis of the five elements done by Fantasy Invader.

The tl;dr is that he tried to tie the lords plus Byleth to the five elements, so as to demonstrate why the Bad Red Lady is Red and Bad. Mostly he did this because, just like Emblem Xeno's anon, he dug way too deep into shallow references to the Four Gods, and, predictably, his analysis quickly collapsed.

Firstly:

Here's how the five Chinese elements interact. One propagates the next in a wheel and also overcomes (usually by restraining or destroying the element) the next element after the one it propagates. For example, water allows for plants to grow and douses fire, ores extracted from the earth make metal, while earth obstructs the flow of water (in reality, it doesn't always do this, canyons being a famous example of water telling earth to shut up and fuck off and shut up and die).

Now where this gets spicy is that Fantasy Invader assigned each Lord (and Byleth, and also Dimitri twice) to a Chinese element to see how they interacted:

Edelgard got fire, because the Vermilion Bird, which associates with fire, is associated with the South, which is where Adrestia is. Ignore that the Saint that is meant to reflect that bird, Macuil, is hiding in the north. Edelgard, at least, is associated with fire, so this is strongest one. And his only strong one.

Dimitri got both Water and Metal, depending on which phase he's in at his character development. Boar Dimitri got Water, while Savior King Dimitri got Metal. The Black Tortoise (associated with Water) is associated with the North (though Indech is to the west), while the White Tiger (associated with Metal) is associated with West, but the Western Church are Dimitri's enemies, so I don't know why he'd be associated with them.

Byleth got earth because earth is associated with the Yellow Dragon, the Top God, because Fantasy Invader wants Byleth associated with the Top God, dammit.

Claude got wood because... fuck, it was the only one left! Claude's from Almyra and the Alliance, which are located to the east, and the Azure Dragon (which associates with wood) is associated with East.

Oh, and it goes without saying but Edelgard is the only character associated with her given element. Dimitri has no association at all with Water and is not uniquely associated with Metal (if anything, Edelgard wears more armor than him post-skip), Claude is associated with wind, which is not a Chinese element, not Wood, and Byleth is not associated with Earth.

Now obviously the propagate/overcome relations are completely fucked up. Going by Fantasy Invader's illogic:

Edelgard creates Byleth and defeats Savior King Dimitri.

Byleth creates Savior King Dimitri and defeats Boar Dimitri.

Savior King Dimitri creates Boar Dimitri and defeats Claude (fucking asshole lol).

Boar Dimitri creates Claude and defeats Edelgard.

Claude creates Edelgard and defeats Byleth.

Only a scant few of these associations are true even from a certain point of view. You could argue that Edelgard spurs Byleth to follow the path Rhea set out for them in the non-CF routes, and Byleth does sorta thematically create SK Dimitri by helping him get over his demons (which I guess means defeating Boar Dimitri), but as for the rest?

SK Dimitri is the only version of Dimitri who can beat Edelgard, he certainly doesn't lose to her. He also doesn't create his boar self, nor does he put Claude into a hammerlock and call him a bitch, and Boar Dimitri certainly doesn't create Claude in any fashion, nor does he defeat Edelgard.

Almost like the elements and the four gods are just window dressing that you tend to see commonly in Eastern media. Hell, Freedom Planet did more with them than either Fire Emblem game did.

[raxistaicho]

"God's gonna get Edelgard for this!"

Yup, we sure have gone there!

So a while, RandomNameless got an anon ask:

Insane that Sothis can watch Billy slaughter her children and subjugate Fodlan in twu piss, and still say she adores him. The devs were drinking the El Grey that day.

You know it's RN because the stupid nicknames.

So yeah, Anon's just angrily ranting that Sothis doesn't care about her daughter which established a false religion, made people suffer for a millennia, and tried to violate the laws of life and death, which, when Ashera did it in Radiant Dawn, was treated by Caineghis as an utter betrayal of her supposed core attribute of order.

“A blasphemy, you mean! How could the goddess of order violate the most fundamental natural law?”

Stay salty, anon.

RN herself weighs in on it next. I'm gonna let her go on a bit because the actual argument she's making needs to be stated in full.

That's what baffled me in Tru Piss lol, and first route bias etc etc meant Sothis was unsalvageable given how it became painfully obvious, even for someone who didn't complete the other routes, that the goddess Rhea calls "mother" is Sothis herself ! Bear in mind Hresvelg Grey meant Sothis couldn't interact with the cast bar Billy, will never talk to her relatives and will never have any influence on the plot. It's as if Elbert only talk to Mark, while Eliwood is still frantically looking for him, and Mark never tells Eli where his dad is.

So here, RN is misunderstanding the point of Sothis in the broader narrative. Yes, Sothis happens to be Rhea's mother, but "being Rhea's mom" isn't her role in the story. RN, because she's a huge fan of the Nabateans, wants the story to be more about the Nabateans, but it really isn't.

See, there's a reason the Agarthans are dispatched in one chapter in all routes and are never the final bosses or the true villains of the story: the story isn't about them. They're important to its background, but they're important for what they represent and what they do, not who they are. The Nabateans are the same.

Ultimately, the story of Three Houses is a tale of the conflicts between mortals and the divine, and the differing ideologies espoused by those who represent those sides. Edelgard firmly represents the will of mortal humans. Rhea, her antithesis, represents the desire of the divine to watch over mortals. Rhea, unlike her species is important because she is Edelgard's opposite. Thales, who might have been Rhea's opposite, is not as important because he isn't: Edelgard already serves that role. Dimitri leans more toward the necessity of the divine in human affairs, while Claude leans more toward the self-governance of humans while using the divine when necessary. There's a reason Claude sides with the Empire when he must, and the church only when he can control it for the purposes of promoting humanism.

Byleth is smack in the middle, fitting their dual-nature as both human and god, but they must choose a side in the end. In CF, they fully embrace the human, while in SS they fully embrace the god. VW and AM are something more in the middle.

Sothis is similar in a way, as a being who was once a god, died, came back as something less than a god, and chooses to sacrifice her powers to Byleth, thus remaining something less than a god. Sothis willingly chooses not to resume her role as the goddess (in Zahras when she decides to give her powers to Byleth rather than taking Byleth's body as her own in order to escape), and so her role in the story is not to be the goddess or Rhea's mother, but to be Byleth's guide, setting them at the start of their path and then departing so they might make the rest of the way.

But Rhea BaD BaD BaD,

And now we dip into the anti-Rhea conspiracy theory...

so her mother cannot take over Billy (something she canonically does in Nopes) to save her,

Here's another fact RN can't accept - and she calls Sothis a horrible mother for it - but Sothis doesn't approve of Rhea. Furthermore, Rhea's downfall in CF is almost entirely of her own making. She set the groundwork for Fodlan's oppressive social system, she refuses to allow it to be reformed, and she never questions why anyone would disagree with her. Because, for Rhea, reforming the church and Fodlan means resurrecting Sothis and submitting Fodlan to her divine rule, which becomes impossible without her church (it's already impossible because Sothis knows her time as the goddess is over and she's respecting the laws of life and death, but still).

and to erase Supreme Leader who hilariously tells everyone she doesn't exist.

It's not even that "hilarious". Edelgard's right in that the goddess worshipped by the Church of Seiros no longer exists: she's dead, and when she had the chance to come back, she chose not to. The Church of Seiros might worship a being with the same name as the gremlin in Byleth's head, but Sothis the head-gremlin and Sothis the goddess are a whole life apart from one another, and the Sothis we know chooses to remain the former.

But now we get to the real meat of this post.

Fantasy Invader.

Oh yeah!

I think this is a translation issue as Japanese Sothis doesn't say that "the stone in your chest is gone," she says "the stone in your chest...shattered."

Teaspoon Translations has it as "crumbled away" and has no ellipse, but who am I to question Fantasy Invader trying to make things look as sad as possible?

It broke, which would mean something considering it's supposedly her heart.

We bwoke Sothis's heart by killing poor baby Whea T_T

What's more, the game changed Byleth's Nirvana class to Enlightened One, and part of achieving Nirvana is purging oneself of attachments that might cloud your judgement.

But only if it's Edelgard. If it's Dimitri or Rhea, attach yourself as hard as possible in the hope they come around.

Also, in the context of Three Houses, detachment is a bad thing. Byleth grows out of being the Ashen Demon through attachment to others. Edelgard, Dimitri, and Claude become their best selves when they open up and allow others in. Attachment is a good thing in Three Houses.

Ergo, by playing Safflower (the route being named after a type of thistle, a path of thorns if you will)

Ah, yes, I remember that one. It wasn't very good.

the player breaks Sothis's heart,

Oh he actually just said, "you break her heart :("

the thing that holds her essence,

No, because by then Byleth held her essence. Not the crude, physical matter Rhea shoved into their chest.

You'd think the person who goes all-in on religious symbolism would value the eternal soul over the ephemeral body.

causing it to seemingly disappear,

Except it doesn't? Her essence, I mean, not the Crest Stone. That's what the S support is for.

But sadly, Fantasy Invader has a way to explain that away.

It's a really bad way, but a bad way is still a way!

yet she leaves behind the Sothis you knew.

I'm sorry, what. Nothing indicates the Sothis from her S support is some... bizarre cast-off shadow of her.

Sothis, the real Sothis, abandons Byleth at the end of Safflower, leaving behind any attachment she once held as Byleth walked down the path of the Beast as per Dimitri's comment.

I'm sorry, what. Is it too much to ask that FI provide some evidence for this claim? I mean actual evidence, not his headcanon derived from his poor attempts at analyzing Buddhist symbolism.

Wouldn't leaving behind a part of herself to remain with Byleth go against this whole no attachments thing? That's a pretty big attachment! And if Sothis rejected Byleth, why would she do that? She can't just make a clean break from Byleth, she has to literally detach the parts of her... soul... personality, that care for them? Wouldn't that make her an incomplete being? It was a bad thing in the Tellius games when Ashunera split her soul into parts!

Combine this with the implications Sothis can come back if she recreates her body,

You know, that thing she demonstrates no ability to do! If Sothis could just make herself another meat puppet to incarnate into, Rhea wouldn't have had to spend a millennia trying and failing to do that for her.

and why Nemesis needed to kill her when she was asleep,

Because she would have defended herself and killed him if she wasn't? He didn't have a Relic or a Crest back then, he was just a bandit trying to kill the most powerful Nabatean in the world.

What, is FI trying to imply Sothis's soul just got stuck asleep because she died asleep and that's why she never bothered to come back the first time she died?

and you get an idea what's going to happen when that occurs as well as another piece of evidence Edelgard is an Agarthan in all but name.

And there we go, "God's gonna get Edelgard for this!" Sothis will totally self-restore herself at some unknown period of time in the future, kill Bad Red Lady, and make everything right.

Well if that's the case, why do you bother getting upset at anything Byleth does, FI? Just be like those Christians who are sure Jesus is coming back any day now and he'll fix everything on Earth when he does.

So yeah, yet more salty desperate self-assurance that Edelgard's totally gonna lose the minute the credits start, trust me bro.

I mean seriously, if her detractors are so certain she'll fail, why bother getting upset when she wins? It really makes you think.

[raxistaicho]

Fantasy Invader forgets whose paralogue is whose.

I couldn't help but bat out a quick post after I saw a truly incredible argument from Fantasy Invader.

I think there's one big, BIG indicator of how siding with Edelgard goes against Byleth's power. Their paralogue. They can't have their paralogue in the game if they side with Edelgard against Rhea.

He's obviously discussing Eternal Guardian, one of the few paralogues you lose access to by going into Crimson Flower rather than Silver Snow.

Eternal Guardian is not Byleth's paralogue, Fantasy Invader.

It's Rhea's. You have to gain support with Rhea to get it. You're invited to it indirectly by Rhea. It adds to the mystery of who Rhea is. If Byleth has a paralogue at all, it's Tales of the Red Canyon, which is about Byleth indirectly through Sothis.

And consider that said paralogue is unlocked through having a support level with Rhea, something the player needs to work at completely at their own direction

Yeah, kinda like how you have to build support level with Edelgard and work completely at your own direction to get into Crimson Flower :)

(I didn't even realize Rhea had supports until late White Clouds in my first playthrough, when the support had already locked),

Yeah, Rhea's supports are kinda pointless. Getting anything but C usually involves deluging her in gifts, though it got easier after she was given lost items and the option to have tea with her via DLC. I think it's very hard to get her C support purely though dialogue options. Now I'm interested in giving that a test...

and as a result the player is given a reward for it later on (a shield that has a constant regenerative effect).

Yes, because that's the true value of the Shield of Seiros. Not the small insignificant part where it halves incoming monster damage, which is very handy against the Immaculate One and the Hegemon Husk.

Christ, he's as ignorant on gameplay as he is on lore, incredible.

Side with Edelgard, however, Rhea takes that for herself to fight you.

I tried to steal it one time. You can't. T_T Ditto for the Ochain Shield.

Paralogues are tied to the characters, and Byleth's is one of three Black Eagle ones we lose when siding with the Empire.

How on earth would Eternal Guardian develop Byleth's character? It's not about Byleth!

Caspar's shows he's still pissed at the Death Knight for what he did during White Clouds, highlighting his sense of justice,

No it's not, The Face Beneath is mostly about Mercedes and Emile. Their relationship takes up most of the focus in both the introduction and closing cutscenes, and Caspar's only part is to protect her and criticize him for not being a good brother.

while Ferdinand's has him learn his father, someone he wanted to bring to justice himself, was framed for the actions of Arundel/Thales

Framed specifically for the destruction of Hrym territory. Edelcrits try to be slippery with this one and say Lysithea is saying he was innocent of all the things, but that's not what she says:

Are you aware of how Duke Aegir was ruling the Hrym territory? He imposed harsh taxes upon the people—much harsher than on his own—making their lives very challenging. People fled their homes in droves to the neighboring Ordelia territory. But they were sent back from where they came. The Empire was occupying Ordelia territory as well, as it turned out. Issues were further complicated when Duke Aegir fell from power. Aegir was dismissed from his position, only to be replaced by Lord Arundel.

Also, that's interesting, Duke Aegir was made governor of Hrym territory, which neighbored Ordelia, during the Imperial occupation of Ordelia territory. It's pretty easy to infer then that Aegir might have also been governor over Ordelia as well. Just a thought to nibble on.

Anyways, on to more of Lysithea's talk:

Correct. And [Arundel] imposed even heavier taxes on the people, squeezing them painfully dry. The people were conscripted for duty. Any who opposed were killed on the spot. Lord Arundel did this in the name of Duke Aegir. ... Your father was by no means a great ruler. But it was Lord Arundel who stoked the fury of the people and directed that fury at your father. Duke Aegir is not perfect, but he's not the villain in this.

"This" being the heavy taxes, conscription, and murders.

which also creates the implication for the player that Aegir was simply being blamed for the experiments (coupled with the fact Hubert reveals in Flower Ionius was Arundel's puppet) and not the monster Edelgard made him out to be.

Lysithea's speech implies nothing of the sort aside from the fact that Arundel used and discarded Aegir, like he does everyone.

And that's on top of the game showing the unrest in the Empire over Edelgard starving her people to fight in a war they don't support.

No, the unrest in Hrym was over Arundel's misrule. Amazing, Fantasy Invader's apparently watched that scene, but only took from it the points that he thought helped him.

Not at all a surprise, given who we're talking about.

Byleth's shows that the relationship between Byleth and Rhea is a key part of their character, hence why they're always worried about her in Snow, Wind and Moon. Choosing the options to side with Edelgard, framed by the game as "changing the story," goes against Byleth's story arc.

...Only if you develop said relationship. If they aren't at C support then it's skipped entirely. It's not integral to the game and you admitted yourself it's so missable that you couldn't unlock it yourself! Compare this to Edelgard's C support where you'd have to be trying to miss it.

Phew, it's not often that FI graces us with new theories, but when he does they're often amazing in all the wrong ways.

[raxistaicho]

Fantasy Invader: Master of all five elements!

Wake up losers, Fantasy Invader is analyzing symbolism again!

So to give a bit of backstory, this all began with Ezralahm making a joking post comparing the four saints to the Four Holy Beasts.

I wouldn't at all be surprised if IS drew from them for Macuil and Indech - Eastern media LOVES using the four beats for symbolism - but it just kinda crumbles to pieces with anything more than a basic examination.

For instance, the Black Tortoise is associated with the cardinal direction of north, but Indech is to the west, and the Vermillion Bird is associated with the south but Macuil is to the north. All the Nabateans are dragons so they're all kinda the Azure Dragon, and none of them have tiger-like traits so who is the White Tiger? But she was mostly just joking around with how Flayn's latest Heroes skin (at least at the time) had her dressing as a cat, so I'm not gonna fuss.

But then Fantasy Invader took a crack at analyzing it more seriously. And I can't pass up the opportunity to demonstrate why his analytical ability is both underdeveloped and extremely motivated.

Another thing is the Yellow Dragon connects to the story of the Yellow Emperor as when he died, the Yellow Emperor is said to have transformed into the yellow dragon and ascended to the heavens (which, in turn, is why dragons are a symbol of enlightenment). Now, why is this important? Because the Yellow Emperor was the one who defeated the FLAME EMPEROR.

The problem, because of course there is one, is that the Yellow Emperor was associated with water, in contrast to the Yan Emperor being associated with fire. Byleth is associated with fire, not water.

Byleth doesn't have any water imagery associated with them at all.

Also, as Ezralahm pointed out, the Yellow Dragon would be Rhea, not Byleth, but the issue there is that the Yellow Dragon is associated with earth, and... well.

The Nabatean Earth Dragon is not Rhea, but Seteth. Rhea was a Sky Dragon.

Also, bringing in further issues, the Vermillion Bird is associated with Fire, but Macuil was a Wind Dragon, and the White Tiger and the Azure Dragon were Metal and Wood, respectively, but Seteth and Flayn are Earth and Light, respectively.

Like I said, there are relations to the four beasts, but they're very very surface-level.

Anyways, moving on,

Not only that, but the Yellow Dragon is tied to the element of earth as well as the Chinese version of quintessence (ergo, heaven and Earth), and changing of the seasons (as well as late summer). Changing of the seasons, in a game with each route tied on one season.

Okay, but the problem is Byleth and Sothis are associated with fire and the stars, not earth. And Byleth's route, Silver Snow, is associated with winter, not all four seasons.

The Chinese element of fire begets the earth Element, as fire reduces everything to ashes where they become part of the earth again. While fire can be positive, in excess it is said to represent hatred, impatience and impulsive behavior. Or, in other words, this can also be tied to how Edelgard brings about Byleth being the leader of Fodlan as Byleth succeeds Rhea as the leader of the Church in the center of Fodlan.

Then who's the wood person that got Edelgard to where she was? Wood begets Fire, as Fire begets Earth. You can't just stop partway with your symbolism, FI.

Hmm, the Eastern Church is in the Alliance. The direction of East is represented by the Azure Dragon, which would make it appear as though it's blue. But the ancient Chinese treated blue and green as simply different shades of the same color, much like how pink used to be just a very light red. Green is also used in relation to Almrya and Claude's route is Verdant (read Green) Wind.

And the Azure Dragon is associated with wood. Okay, so Claude got Edelgard to where she is? Well, no. In Verdant Wind, Claude doesn't create but defeats Edelgard, which reverses the wheel.

And, obviously, Claude is not ever associated with wood. He's associated with the wind, which doesn't fit any of the five elements.

Oh, and also, while he was right that blue and green are kinda confusingly synonymous in eastern cultures, Claude is associated with yellow. Not green.

Does this mean Ignatz is the true Azure Dragon!?

Considering it uses the banner of victory symbolism as Silver Snow does

The banner which looks nothing like the Buddhist banner of victory, mind you. And it uses that scene because VW is SS with Claude clumsily inserted.

the route is not just Byleth having obtained Enlightenment but Claude obtaining it as well. Claude doesn't give into his poison and remain a snake, he gets on the same level as a motherfucking dragon.

Which is changing the story as he so often says you do when you play CF over SS. In the "normal" story, SS, Claude does not join with the church and tries to go his own way.

So really, Golden Wildfire Claude really is more in line with his "canon" 3H self. At least, if you follow FI's logic and be consistent with it, which he never ever is.

And yes, he does call SS the "canon" route in this very post.

It would also put his route as the true Spring route, as that's what the Azure Dragon is tied to, tying in to how he accomplishes what Edelgard said she would except through proper means.

What blooms in spring, FI?

The fact the azure Dragon is tied to the Element of wood ties into how Byleth is supposed to be “a great tree that kindly embraces (the Golden Deer) and watches over (them) as (they) perch on its branches.”

But that's Byleth being the tree, not Claude. I thought Byleth was supposed to be earth, not wood? In that very quote FI grabbed, Marianne compares Claude to the wind, not the tree.

And Claude is like the wind, pushing us forward as we soar across the open sky…

Claude is associated with the wind, FI. Both games are very consistent about this.

While there is no Northern Church yet, the North is linked to the Black Tortoise (sometimes called the Black Warrior) intertwined with a snake (TWSITD and the damage they've done to his life and his country). It represents Winter. It wouldn't be hard to think of this as Dimitri in his black armor.

And winter, as I mentioned earlier, is Byleth's route. Snow. Autumn is Dimitri's.

But the Kingdom does have the Western Church,

The Western Church are Dimitri's enemies. Consistently.

linking it to the White Tiger. Dimitri ditches his black outfit for a white one as he becomes the good king, leader of the Blue Lions.

Heheh, NOPE. Dimitri unlocks the Great Lord class at the start of chapter 16, a full two chapters before he snaps out of Boar Mode.

So while Dimitri starts in Winter, he ends up in Autumn which corresponds to the Moon part of the game's Japanese title. This could also mean that Dimitri represents both the elements of water (which is tied to the moon, hence Azure Moon) and metal.

Except that Dimitri's not really associated with any element. Three Hopes made him associated with lightning, but eh, typical Fire Emblem trio with Edelgard and Claude had no remaining things to use but lightning. In any case, he's definitely not associated with water.

Metal can be beaten by flame (Edelgard) but water can beat fire, hinting at how the battle between the two can go either way. Earth though gives rise to metal (hence Byleth helping Dimitri succeed) while Metal beats wood (Claude, who hands over the Alliance)

So the good Dimitri will lose to Edelgard while Boar Dimitri won't? But that's not how it goes. Also, Water begets Wood and Wood begets Fire. So Dimitri created Claude created Edelgard created Byleth created Dimitri?

(Chinese, how does Metal beget Water? That doesn't make any sense!)

Also, how does metal beat wood? Metal's not adjacent to it, and your previous line of reasoning was that the earlier element in the wheel begets the next one. If metal coming before wood "beats" it, then wouldn't Edelgard beat Byleth? And also also, Dimitri doesn't kick Claude's ass and take his lands, Edelgard almost does!

If you're getting confused trying to follow along, I am too lol. This whole Pokemon-esque type advantage symbolism is a gigantic mess.

South is the Vermilion Bird, linking it to Edelgard (who wears red), her many bird-themed elements and her Southern Church. It's also linked to fire, indicating she's the Flame Emperor, as well as the season of summer.

Except Crimson Flower and Scarlet Blaze are the seasons of spring, not summer. Flowers bloom in spring.

Fire is also very, very destructive. Fire can melt metal or be defeated by water (again, how Dimitri can either defeat her or lose to her),

Except, again, he's got which Dimitri beats her reversed. By his own logic, Boar Dimitri is water, while Savior King Dimitri is metal, but SK Dimitri is the only time he can win against her.

it uses wood as a fuel (her invading the Alliance to fix her totalling the Empire's economy with the war)

FI just pulled that one completely out of his ass.

but creates earth in turn (Byleth ending up as Fodlan's ruler after defeating her in VW/SS).

But I thought Byleth was the tree!?

That's the end of that post (more or less, he rambles a bit but it's nothing important), and while I'd like to just stop here because following along with FI's train of thought is giving me a headache, but he had another post! Luckily this'll be a lot shorter.

Houses tries to link Claude to wind, but wind isn't one of the Chinese elements. Those are fire, water, earth, metal and wood unlike the western elements of earth, wind, fire, and water (no heart though). Ergo, Claude being wind makes him an outsider to this.

Well shoot, it seems like you analysis doesn't really work, does it?

Again with the blue-green stuff, this would also make Byleth a blue-haired lord/player character (the only real outliers in this regard are Corrin. Eliwood, Leif and Roy) But this would also denote that Rhea, Seteth and Flayn are trustworthy by hinting at the connection. Meanwhile, Edelgard's associated with red and black, villainous colors.

Red sure is an evil color in this series!

Edelgard's not associated with black herself. The Empire uses black for its armor, but the Black Eagles, aside from Hubert, are not associated with black. Edelgard herself wears mostly red, white, and gold in her Armored Lord and Emperor clothes.

And meanwhile,

If anyone's associated with black, it's Dimitri.

(Also fuck you for forgetting Celica and Micaiah, sexist asshole)

When you think about the game's usage of flowers, Edelgard's intendedred flower being the safflower would indicate it's a route of attraction (only revealed post-timeskip and altered to a rose in the English text),

Safflowers symbolize good luck and attracting love and marriage.

whereas the white lily Rhea wears would symbolize purity.

Very pure. Bountifully, bouncily pure.

Also wait, does this mean Rhea is a lesbian?

Whatever you have with Edelgard is meant to be superficial,

Love and marriage are superficial? Man, and I thought I was jaded.

whereas Byleth's real connection is meant to be with Rhea. That's the pure relationship.

You sound like a damn conservative, lol. Yeah, nothing purer than dating the woman who delivered you, tried to indoctrinate you, tried to eliminate your personality to get her mom back, and then called you by her mother's name during a tender moment.

Well,that's enough for now. There's only so much Fantasy Invader a man can stand. So, as usual, his symbolic analysis isn't consistent or well-researched, and it crumbles like a shitty jenga tower under the slightest scrutiny.

[raxistaicho]

Using Yellow Edelgard to attack Red Céline!

Somehow, Fantasy Invader's analysis of Engage manages to be even more sad than his analysis of 3H. So let's dive into more of it :)

Also, Céline is my favorite characters from Engage, so Fantasy Invader is kinda stepping into my lane by talking about her.

One of the things about Celine is how despite her cute appearance she is quite ruthless.

Oh yes, that took me by surprise too. I was sure she'd just be the third rendition of Lissa and Elise, but she went her entire joining chapter without bringing up her tea quirk, unlike... every single other character in Engage to that point, who make their gimmicks immediately known...

Thank god Céline was way more interesting than that! Its plot is pretty vapid and zero-effort, but some of the characters were at least way better than anything Fates or Awakening squirted out.

This is rather curious to me, as the Houses devs said something to the same effect about Edelgard. Namely how her being the game's would-be conqueror and stuff was meant to take players by surprise, and how this gave the character depth.

Oh boy. No, you fucking idiot, the dichotomy when it came to Edelgard was her endearing moments and her strong will. Not her physical cuteness and her ruthlessness.

I don't expect Fantasy Invader to read my blogs and learn why he's wrong (he has asks off and immediately blocks anyone who tries to engage with him without response, so he's pretty clearly arrogantly confident in his delusions of intelligence), but I do expect him to occasionally recheck his assertions. I always double-check myself. But then, I'm not burdened by such unearned confidence as Fantasy Invader.

It also doesn't help that alternate-timeline Celine advocates conquest herself, and in the final map of the DLC talks about how great it is she's free from her responsibilities (and can crush her opponents) while equipped with Emblem Edelgard.

Yes, alternate Céline, who was murdered and risen by a rogue dragon who is then given headpats and forgiven for all the things because uwu Nel cawed fow him :'3

Also, I like how they only acknowledge it's Emblem Edelgard, also starring Dimitri and Claude, when they can use it to attack Edelgard, roflmao.

Lastly, given that Fell Fogado and Fell Ivy, the most openly villainous and wretched of the Fell Royals, respectively had Tiki and Soren, does that say something about them? Dragons bad actually? Mixed race people abuse their siblings? It's funny how reliably self-defeating Fantasy Invader's arguments are because they always stop the second he thinks he has a win so he doesn't get to the parts where they don't fit his narrative.

That last one sticks out a bit, since Edelgard had a similar event in FEH where she talked with Lissa about how awful it is that she has responsibilities thrust upon her simply for being born a noble.

I don't play Heroes and I don't know where I'd begin to look to double-check this, but I'm just going to assume FI is wrong about something. I'm certainly not going to take his word for it.

Hubert and Monica's support also talks about how this is part of Edelgard's plan.

I believe he's referring to:

It's amazing how "you'll be free to live the life you choose and remain at the side of the woman you love" got twisted into, "Edelgard just wants to free everyone of icky responsibilities!"

Just as Edelgard wants to enable commoners to rise up and enjoy the benefits once afforded solely to the nobility, she also wants to allow those who don't want to be noble to live ordinary lives.

Three Houses is full of people who, despite being born into nobility, don't want to live ordinary noble lives. Bernadetta, Caspar, Marianne, Linhardt, and Lysithea are examples of this. There's no inconsistency here: Edelgard's motive is to allow people to live the kinds of lives they want.

Not a huge surprise that an Edelgard detractor is against a person's right to self-determination. FI believes Fodlan needs Byleth to become a Nabatean and rule them compassionately.

This is a core piece of morality to the franchise since the beginning with Marth's “I'm a prince before I'm a son or brother” line at the end of the first game.

The difference there is Marth chooses to shoulder that kind of responsibility. Most Fire Emblem lords do, Edelgard included. While she only wants an ordinary life, she still dedicates herself to a cause that will surely consume most of her life.

The whole concept of Oudou, whereas Edelgard is supposed to represent Hadou.

Hadou means self-determination? Well damn, Hadou is pretty based then!

And we know Celine protects the people. She wiped out bandits who were preying on villagers without mercy... Edelgard, on the other hand, is willing to sacrifice as many people as it takes in service to her ideals

I have a feeling Céline herself would disagree with the idea that she would not sacrifice some of her people to protect the rest.

ideals she shares with the bandit Nemesis.

It's funny how Fantasy Invader insists Edelgard is following Nemesis's ideals when Nemesis's ideals of warrior pride is most-reflected in Faerghus's warrior/knighthood culture.

She's guided belief that she's going to make a better future by doing so. Celine helps support her brother Alfred, whose upgraded class is Avenir. Avenir is french for Future, ergo Celine is fighting for the future by supporting Alfred.

Ironic, considering Alfred usually dies young, implicitly leaving Céline to succeed him. This is further hinted at that Céline, not Alfred, is linked to Celica, the national Emblem of Firene, much as Diamant, Ivy, and Timerra are linked to the Emblems of Brodia, Elusia, and Solm. So really, I think she's the future here.

In addition, Alfred is a blonde who has a talent for lances, horseback riding and will die at a young age due to his illness.

We're going somewhere stupid. Very, very stupid. You know where this is going, I mocked it myself ages ago.

Edelgard's step brother Dimitri

Dimitri didn't learn Edelgard was his step-sister until after she returned to Fodlan, and Edelgard never even learned it at all. Their friendship during their younger days is what was important to them, not that their parents were married. So, I'm sorry, but you're reaching mightily trying to portray these two as siblings the way Céline and Alfred are.

is blonde, specializes in lances, has a hidden talent for horseback riding, is mentioned to die to illness before his partner and is stronger than Alfred could ever dream of. Coincidence?

Yes, it actually is a coincidence. I can say that with very little margin for error, because Dimitri and Alfred are so distinct in terms of design outside the most basic traits that it's insane.

Just look at their designs!

Alfred's dressed in blue, white, and gold, wears very fancy and impractical clothing for the battlefield, has a very friendly and confident air about him, is boundlessly optimistic, and lives for the moment and the living.

Dimitri wears blue and black, dresses very practically and militarily, is insecure, guarded, lives for the dead, and dwells in the past.

The only true comparison between them is their hair color and weapon of choice, so you might as well argue Camus and Clive fit into this too, somehow. Hell, Clive's a brother, too, so I think we really need to dig deep into the relationship between Edelgard, Céline, and Claire, while we're at it. Oh! Claire and Celine both have blonde hair and a refined disposition!

Lastly, Dimitri is never shown riding a horse unless the player puts him on one. He's always shown on foot in anything related to the lore. Hell, we see Claude ride a horse one more time than we do Dimitri.

This is so typical of Fantasy Invader's style of analysis, he ALWAYS does this. He focuses hard on what supports his arguments and just totally ignores the parts that don't. Motivated reasoning is the name of the game with him.

Celine's personal class is Vidame.

In the localized version. In the JP version it was the French word for "flower", which fits her nicely.

Now, Vidame was actually a type of French noble associated with the Church. In order to protect the Church's, uhh, earthly interests they would perform acts that weren't considered appropriate for the Church to be involved in. This usually meant violence, even in the event of it being an act of justice or to protect others. So Celine's class does have a religious tint to it, a link to her family's connection to the Divine Dragons...and honestly fits her really well.

That said, the localized name isn't exactly bad, but the thing is Celine isn't motivated by her religiosity. Much like... nearly everyone in Engage aside from Ivy, Mauvier, Pandreo, and Panette, religiosity is just a small thing they do to facilitate the worship of Alear. Because Engage isn't really interested in the deeper meaning of faith, it just wants the player to feel like a god.

But then look at the Empire, founded with the support of the early Church that formed around Seiros.

For the sake of killing Nemesis. That's why the Empire exists. Not so Rhea could guide the lost sheep.

One of the original ideals for the nobility, according to Hanneman, was that they protect their people but that has fallen to the wayside as nobles instead used their positions for their own power.

And, again, Fantasy Invader thinks Edelgard twisted things to not be that way, when the reality is she's trying to drag it back to fulfill the role it was intended to fulfill and failed to fulfill.

This is partially why the Empire is supposed to represent hadou, the other is Edelgard ruling through military power.

Celine's class is closer to what the emperor should have been.

Hmm. I wonder how silly Edelgard would look wearing the upside-down teacup dress.

Edelgard's route is named Safflower/Crimson Flower, Firene is the land of flowers.

But wait, Alfred is the prince of flowers (he references them far more then Celine does) and earlier on Fantasy Invader was trying to compare him to Dimitri, whose route is not named after flowers.

Amazing how flimsy FI's arguments are.

Houses banks on tea-time, to the point of selling teas IRL, Celine is a tea expert.

Tea is a big thing in Firene in general. It gets brought up most with Céline, but it's mentioned frequently in most of the Firenian characters' supports.

I don't see why Edelgard detractors think tea-time is such a big deal in Houses, it's honestly generally a waste except on birthdays when it doesn't cost you explore points.

I've talked before about Hortensia's connection to Emblem Byleth, how her story parallels Silver Snow and how defecting from the Empire is supposed to be the right thing rather than continuing it's decline by fighting for it.

Yup, that was pretty bad.

Elusia is also the Kingdom of Knowledge, whereas the Empire's original meritocracy was, in addition to protecting the people, supposed to be about valuing knowledge.

The Empire was not a meritocracy. Ever. Aristocracies and meritocracies are antithetical.

But when you look at Celine, it just seems to be that they intentionally made a character that was supposed to be like Edelgard

So, in spite of my joke that Céline is "yellow Edelgard", they share little in common aside from being short young women who are willing to take extreme measures to protect people. Céline most notably lacks Edelgard's sense of class-conscience (that her solution to banditry in Firene is to kill the bandits rather than resolve the socio-economic conditions that gave rise to banditry is pretty telling), mostly because Engage has very little of substance to say on the matter of social conflict between the nobility and the commoners. The solution, much as it is in Azure Moon, is just to place the "right nobles" in charge.

I mean hell, even in gameplay they differ. Céline is a squishy mage with some capacity to fight on the front lines (though she only seems meant to fight fellow mages) and use staves, while Edelgard is a pure bruiser.

And no, it's very unlikely Céline was written to compare her to Edelgard. The two games were created at the same time, the Edelgard DLC Bracelet was pretty clearly a late addition, and Fell Céline isn't even especially bad compared to the rest. She comes across as not as bad as Fell Ivy, Fogado, or Alcryst. If she was meant as an apology for Edelgard, she'd be more openly villainous, as Ivy and Fogado are, not motivated by desperation.

Granted, considering how Fogado is supposed to be just like Celine in the service to his sister, and how Houses likes to say Claude is similar to Edelgard initially, I guess we have all three lords having their Engage counterparts.

Ah, yes, Fogado is a brown guy who acts friendly and Claude is also a brown guy who acts friendly! Perfect counterparts!

Except they're not. Fogado is genuinely a friendly, tactful, empathetic man who deftly conceals a machiavellian side for the sake of his sister and people, while Claude plays at being friendly to conceal the fact he's actually rather untrusting, plays at being a schemer as a front, and is rather tactless and insensitive. They're pretty different, and assuming they aren't is kinda racist.

[raxistaicho]

Invading Engage

Who's ready to see Fantasy Invader try to analyze Engage and compare it to Three Houses, now? :D

As I've mentioned before, repetition of his chief bonkers points is a pretty regular occurrence, so more often than not if I were to continue refuting his newer points I'd just be repeating myself, and that'd be tiresome and pointless. Thankfully, we do have a new one!

And it's... uhh... Sombron raised his kids like a meritocracy. Oh boy.

I feel like if you look at Engage, while not mentioning her the game is pretty good to Rhea. As I mentioned before, Byleth's trial theme song uses tracks that associate it with Silver Snow. Song of the Nabateans,

He's referring to Trial of the Academy.

So first, he's referring to the bit going to 0:40 to 1:00

Song of the Nabateans, which is remixed into A Funeral of Flowers, Rhea's boss theme from SS.

Engage wanting to remind us Rhea is the final boss on half of the routes. Checkmate, atheists.

pointing to Byleth's draconic heritage,

...No. It's referencing one of the major pieces of the Three Houses soundtrack. Song of the Nabateans is reused in a lot of pieces. You know, like how Bearer of Hope, which features in Trial of Dawn, first plays during Elincia's most profound moment in Radiant Dawn?

Edge of Dawn, a song that depicts Byleth and Edelgard's relationship as they end up as enemies and isn't used in it's full version in Flower,

Again, no. Jesus. Edge of Dawn depicts Edelgard's fears for the future and her certainty she'll end up Byleth's enemy.

and Paths that Shall Never Cross, referring to Byleth and Edelgard goin their separate ways.

Paths That Will Never Cross is used for battling any unrecruited character in part 2 - aside from the three house leaders, which includes Edelgard. This song lends more evidence to the notion that Seteth is fated to be Byleth's enemy then that Edelgard is.

This is all associated with a Byleth that's held in the same esteem as Revelations-Corrin and True Ending Roy, in addition to every other past FE lord.

You know what's different between Byleth and Corrin and Roy? Their games have true/golden endings. Byleth's does not.

While the House Leaders do get their bracelet, they don't get much else. No paralogue chapter like the other DLC emblems, nor do they show up in the xenologue. Nothing, just a cutscene where we get them for free.

There's quite a bit of reason to believe that Emblem Edelgard (with Dimitri and Claude) The Emblem of Rivals was a late addition to Engage. Houses and Engage were initially developed side-by-side, and though they had to use Byleth because main character, there was no way to be sure who would or wouldn't be popular from Three Houses. Then it turned out all three lords were well-liked - much to the chagrin of Edelgard haters - so Intsys developed a scheme to throw them all in.

Ironically, not having a map associated to them probably increased their general visibility. I'd bet money that a hell of a lot more people have played around with Emblem Edelgard (with Dimitri and Claude) The Emblem of Rivals than they have the Chrobin duo.

And they do appear in the Xenalogue. Fell Céline carries them in the final map.

Considering how the Cipher card that came with Houses in Japan mentions that it's your story, it's ultimately Engage saying that the game is Byleth's story above all else. Not Claude's, not Dimitri's and not Edelgard's, Byleth's.

... Yes? Byleth is ultimately the avatar of Three Houses, who decides the course of the story.

Fantasy Invader is trying to argue that this means Engage is hinting at Silver Snow being the canon route, except the issue is further down he'll use as evidence the fact that you fight Nemesis in Engage... even though Nemesis is not fought in Silver Snow.

It's funny how self-defeating FI's arguments tend to be. And also sad and aggravating.

Edelgard also says that the three lords protected their worlds, but anyone who has played Houses would see that her route goes in the other direction,

Fixing their world.

working with TWSITD,

Until she turns on them and kills them.

killing/exiling the other lords

Poor Cwaude and Dimitwi. We must not fight for Fodlan's betterment if it means inconveniencing two men :(

and killing Rhea.

Because she lit a city on fire rather than surrender.

What Edelgard did to protect the world is the exact opposite of those routes,

What routes? You didn't mention other routes.

so who really protected the world?

This is just Fantasy Invader being mad again that Edelgard's story is treated as equally valid as any other. Three Houses isn't a story of good vs evil (unless the Agarthans are involved, anyways), it's a story of clashing ideals. And that, honestly, could help to explain why the Agarthans are greatly sidelined in all routes.

Hopes uses Nemesis as the big bad for Fodlan, not Rhea.

And not Edelgard either!

We all know where this next pinheaded argument is going, but I really need to make a post about how self-defeating it is, because it really really is.

Nemesis, who Edelgard makes out to be this champion of humanity,

She never did that.

is the one held to the same level as Loptyr, Grima, Ashera, Duma...

Keep this bit in your head.

Nemesis was the bad guy, Rhea killed a bad guy

Yeah and in KOTOR you kill Malak whether you're Light Revan or Dark Revan, but that doesn't meant Dark Revan isn't a complete monster.

Also, I guess this means then that Duma is a bad guy, responsible for all the problems!

Jeddah finally beating the "caused all the problems" allegations!

and Edelgard killed her while praising the villain.

Again, Edelgard never praised Nemesis, and again, Edelgard killed Rhea because she forced her hand.

Claude's route is the one that tackled the supposed big bad therefore it's the one more in-line with past FE heroes, and by extension Dimitri and Byleth's routes.

Woah, I hope you remembered to stretch before that reach, Invader. Maybe he played a version of Three Houses that I didn't, because I recall a distinct lack of fighting Nemesis in the end of Azure Moon or Silver Snow.

There's a reason people feel that the final fight against Nemesis in Verdant Wind, while undeniably cool, came out of fucking nowhere.

Also, FE tradition involves killing a dragon at the end of the game. Medeus, Duma, Medeus again, Loptous (via his meat puppet, Julius), Iduun, the generic Fire Dragon, Ashnard (riding a dragon), Grima, Garon, Anankos (also via his meat puppet, Takumi in Conquest), Rhea, and Sombron. The only exceptions are Veld in FE5, Fomortis in FE8 (because FE8... is really weird and involved demons when other games didn't), Ashera in FE10, and Edelgard and Nemesis in Houses.

Even how we get Byleth's ring calls back to Silver Snow. Hortensia was an academy student, a princess borne of a concubine,

The comparison to Edelgard is deliberate, he's framing Hortensia as the anti-Edelgard. It doesn't work, as usual.

her father was manipulated by Sombron's forces into doing their work,

mind-controlled, rather, but yeah. Also it's worth noting that Hyacinth probably would have done Sombron's bidding anyways since he worshiped him.

her former classmates defect to the Divine Dragon's side and she does as well in the end

You've got that backwards, dunderhead. Hortensia defects first, then her classmates defect to be at her side - which barely constitutes a defection since they're just following their liege's example.

even if it means fighting against her former country. Compare this to Edelgard, who joins the academy, is a princess borne of a concubine, implications Ionius was a puppet for TWSITD to push Edelgard into stating the war to kill their ancient enemy,

That last part isn't accurate, but Fantasy Invader gonna Fantasy Invader.

her classmates defect in Silver Snow despite fighting against their homeland

Not if they fell during White Clouds, actually. Then they just stay at Edelgard's side, much like Rosado and Goldmary do Hortensia's.

and possibly their own families while Edelgard...continues attacking the rest of the continent using the monsters that were once men TWSITD provided her. Her own version of the Corrupted.

Jesus, if Demonic Beasts in Three Houses were as numerous as late-game Corrupted in Engage, maps would get really fuckin' long.

Anyways, that's another reach. Edelgard has soldiers that are genuinely loyal to her and believe in her vision.

Bonus point is that Hortensia prides herself on being a "cute" girl, while Edelgard's depth comes from her both being a violent conqueror...and a cute girl.

Again, no. Edelgard's contrast the devs spoke up lies between her endearing and her strong-willed sides. "Violent" and "girl" are not a contrast at all, just look at Estelle Bright!

If anything, Hortensia went down the path Edelgard refused to do, hence why she's a hero in the end.

Hortensia's a hero in Invader's eyes because she fought the dragon who established a fake religion with himself at the center of it through which he dominated a country, while Edelgard's a "villain" in Invader's eyes because she fought the dragon who established a fake religion with herself at the center of it through which she dominated a continent. Checks out.

Lumeria being a dragon living at the center of the continent, worshiped as divine? GOOD GUY.

Ah, what an amazing argument. "Lumera is a good divine dragon, therefor Rhea is also good!"

Doesn't matter that she did something to Alear that changed them, it saved Alear's life and not treated as a bad thing.

...Yes, because what Lumera did to Alear was for the express purpose of saving Alear's life, and was done with Alear's implicit permission.

What Rhea did to Byleth might've initially been for the express purpose of saving Byleth's life - we only have Rhea's word, the word of a liar as evidence - but what she continues to do by the year 1180 is to erase Byleth's personality and replace her with Sothis.

Lumera would have never ever done that to Alear. Because Rhea is a deconstruction of the series theme of divine dragons being good, and Lumera is not.

Lumera - at least to the best of our knowledge - didn't craft worship of the Divine Dragons the way Rhea concocted the Church of Seiros and the worship of her dead mother (whom she supposedly speaks to). Lumera doesn't live above humanity the way Rhea does, nor does Alear. She didn't create teachings or rules to control humanity the way Rhea did.

Being the Divine Dragon in Elyos appears to be a life of service to the people, going to them and protecting them. Being the Archbishop of the Church of Seiros means living in luxury and safety in Garreg Mach while the rest of Fodlan burns. Just look at how blithely unaware Flayn was about how bad the rest of Fodlan was before the time skip in Silver Snow.

Rhea is a deconstruction of everything a divine dragon is supposed to be in this series, but Edelgard's haters just never got the memo.

Naga was reclusive, living apart from humanity except in times of peril to protect them. Tiki is humble and just wants friends, even into adulthood. Duma and Mila set themselves up as gods because they were prideful, and were banished by Naga for their pride. Naga wanted the dragons to set aside from their pride and live as and among humans to avoid madness.

But Rhea doesn't live with humanity; she lives over them.

Compare Rhea's bedroom with Alear's:

Alear doesn't even get a pillow, guys! That's how you know they sacrificed for their friends: they gave their pillow away so Sommie could have two. Because Sommie gets everything.

Alear's hair changing color is also seen as a good thing, with it returning to it's natural red is the bad ending.

It's like Fantasy Invader's brain just stops at "their appearance changed" when discussing Byleth after chapter 11, and not what it means that it changed, or what it would mean if those changes were allowed to deepen, as Rhea wished they would.

It would mean Byleth's death as a person.

Meritocracy isn't so good when people are tossed away for not serving their master well enough, people without merit being labelled as defects.

Oh my fucking god. "Sombron treated his minions like it was a meritocracy!" Somehow, Fantasy Invader's concocted an even more headass take than, "Edelgard is a social darwinist!"

At least if Edelgard genuinely was a social darwinist, as her haters have tricked themselves into believing, she would reward her successful minions.

Sombron doesn't do this.

Take Hyacinth: he succeeded as Sombron wished, returning him to the world and restoring his powers, and with barely any help from Veyle or the Four Hounds, no less. Hyacinth's reward? Om nom.

There is no measure of loyalty or success good enough for Sombron. As Past Alear says themselves,

If I lose to you, [The Corrupted] will kill me. No… No, they will kill me, in time, no matter what.

Past Alear knows very well that the only reward Sombron offers his loyal minions is inevitable suffering and death. This is not a meritocracy, this is a horrific autocracy.

Doesn't really surprise me Houses discourse hasn't died down after Engage, Engage made Edelgard look like shit. Especially compared to Hortensia.

Houses discourse hasn't died down after Engage because there's nothing to talk about with Engage. Engage has such a nothing plot with black and white morality, simple characters, and basic motivations that the most heated that Engage discussion ever got was over something as ridiculous as whether or not it's incest if Alear bangs the fell Xenalogue twins. Engage is that bare-bones, so of course the fanbase just stuck with the game where there's actually something to discuss.

So uhh, yeah, Engage doesn't support FI's anti-Edelgard take as well as they think they do.

In fact, the Fell Xenalogue supports it. the FX portrays one rogue dragon, when completely bereft of anything to stop them, destroying an entire world. The FX portrays the countries as falling into ruin if their royals were worse people, because really who's gonna stop them, they're the monarchs of absolute monarchies.

[raxistaicho]

Heggiegard needs to cover dem tiddies

With a title like this, you know it's Fantasy Invader.

Who else could it be?

(Also, by Heggiegard I mean Hegemon Husk Edelgard. "Heggie" is a nickname some of us for her.)

Thinking about the Hegemon Husk again today.

Oh no. He was thinking again.

It's a monster-class unit,

Yup, same as the Immaculate One. This'll be important later.

What is it that Dimitri says in Houses when seeing it?

Ah, yes, Dimitri, one of Edelgard's staunchest enemies, the house leader who thinks with his heart and not his head, and the one who thinks ends don't justify the means. Surely he will give a nuanced, balanced assessment of her activities.

“To be changed beyond all recognition... That is what lies at the end of the ideals you served so diligently.”

Yes, that sounds about right for him: a moralizing condemnation of his enemies, and a hypocritical one to boot given he benefits from and doesn't try to stop his own soldiers using Crest Stones to turn into Demonic Beasts to try to gain an advantage at Tailltean.

And yes, I know Dedue gave that order behind his back, Dimitri still had time to countermand the order and save some of his men. He decided instead to just make the most of it, because at the end of the day his true chief concern at Tailltean was revenge.

Cipher also titles the card version of it as Hegemon Edelgard: At the End of the Ideals She Served.

I can't speak for Cipher because I have basically no experience with it, but almost certainly that was just quoting Dimitri. Also, aren't Cipher cards all in Japanese, or are some of them translated?

And I can't help but feel that this is what is hinted at in Safflower,

I wonder if FI thinks calling it Safflower instead of Crimson Flower is a gotcha? I know he thinks the flower symbolism is spoopy, even though Safflowers have positive symbolism.

where Dimitri calls out Byleth and Edelgard on walking the path of the beast in the Japanese text.

Yes, when the man who destroys everything in his path and is out for revenge says you're going to hell, you should believe him.

Through Chrom Translate: Teacher. Why did Edelgard... choose the path of a beast, trampling on people's lives?

Also, he's still using machine translation, but that's basically close enough so eh.

So, Dimitri calls Flower the path of a beast, while fighting alongside Dimitri results in Edelgard transforming herself into a beast unit for greater power.

And fighting against Rhea involved her transforming herself into a "beast" unit for greater power. I thought Edelgard was the racist one, Fantasy Invader? I mean heck, the Immaculate One looks way more wicked than Heggie:

And that's just in her natural form, her Silver Snow - the route FI thinks is truest - form she's glowing red and looks like she's made of thorns.

I don't think the Hegemon is supposed to represent how far Edelgard will go for those ideals, nor is it TWSITD's corruption of her. I think it is meant to be representative of Edelgard's ideals themselves. Notice how Dimitri and Cipher both paint the Hegemon Husk as the end point of what Edelgard wants, it's symbolic of what she's actually trying to accomplish.

No, it absolutely does represent the first of those things. And given Dimitri accuses Edelgard of wanting to be a goddess, I think we can safely discard his assessments of Edelgard's actions.

Take the flavor text for the card."My progress cannot be stopped. The war's end will spell destruction for one of us. There can only be one ruler of the world..." Is that Edelgard out of her mind?

It's certainly her at her most dramatic!

Don't think so, not when Caspar's endings in Flower mention expeditionary warfare, Edelgard is invading other countries following the unification of Fodlan. Arundel also mentions that the world will be under Imperial rule following the war, with Edelgard saying she will do what she can. So ruling the world? That's something Edelgard is going to work towards after she has destroyed all those who oppose her, don't believe in her or support these ideals in Fodlan.

(sigh) No.

And also, now that Houses Datamining's search feature is back up, here's all the times "world" comes up in the 3H script:

Search

Search

Just look at how many times "the world" is used to refer to just Fodlan.

Meanwhile, Claude and Dimitri both have endings that talk about Fodlan improving foreign relations.

Dimitri has one: his own. Dimitri's ending really is just a pile of vague "Dimitri did real good-like" platitudes since his story doesn't really say anything about the kind of ruler he's going to be or what kind of world he wants to create other than, "the weak should be protected from the strong (but never become the strong)".

Likewise, remember her introduction as the Flame Emperor? That she will be the one to reforge the world? We know Edelgard wants to put the world back to what it was, due to the Japanese saying “Let's meet again someday. My name is Flame Emperor... I am the one who will return the world to its original state,”

No. She says return it to the way it should be. This is important, because he's going to try to argue Edelgard wants to return Fodlan to how it was with Nemesis, even though she doesn't in CF. She does not create a ruling class of warrior-elites like he did with his Ten Elites.

Anyways, FI goes on to babble for a little while about how Nemesis's time was really really bad, how Edelgard supposedly sends Caspar on invasions of other countries, and how Edelgard wants to bring Nemesis's days back, and also how,

Then consider that Engage used Nemesis, the guy who killed the Goddess and committed a genocide against the Nabateans to gain his power, for it's final battle...

Nemesis is evil because of his genocidal actions, not because he's a Dark Emblem in Engage. If we followed this logic then Duma, Iduun, and Ashera are the ultimate evils of their settings. And while Duma's pretty fucked up, Iduun's a victim and Ashera has no legitimate agency of her own.

Meanwhile, Dimitri's endings talk about giving the commoners a voice in government

Whatever the hell that means. His defenders like to argue he deadass establishes a House of Commons in his lifetime!

while Claude tells Cyril in their support that he wants to end oppression.

Oh, so incidental dialogue is sufficient evidence for things, then?

All right, there we go: Edelgard improves foreign relations, too.

FI then babbles about Claude for a while, saying he starts like Edelgard before "letting go of his hatred". That's one of his more recent memes: Claude's personality flaw is he hates the Church of Seiros, so I guess he's not ignorant and "animalish" at the start of the story anymore. It has to do with FI needing to twist the game to suit his terrible Buddhist symbolism.

Verdant Wind also uses a lot of the same symbolism that Silver Snow uses to say it's a path of enlightenment rather than one of the beast.

VW uses the same "symbolism" as Silver Snow because it's Silver Snow with a yellow coat of paint slapped over the top.

Dimitri is given the title of Saviour King by the people in his ending which is supposed to represent Oudou, benevolent rule.

Only in Azure Moon, his best route. In Crimson Flower he's given the title of "Tempest King" because he leaves nothing in his wake:

And considering how all the fighting he'd be getting involved in in Crimson Flower is in Faerghus... that doesn't paint a good picture, honestly. Dimitri's such a mindless berserker in CF that he's destroying his own land. See why I argue he's more boar-like in CF than his fans care to admit?

Edelgard represents Hadou, rule through force. Edelgard's ending title is... Flame Emperor, the same thing she called herself at the start of the game, and referred to as a hegemon by Byleth's ending title.

In Crimson Flower, Edelgard reclaims the title of Flame Emperor to mean something better than it used to: the revolutionary who saved Fodlan from divine control without losing her heart. Byleth becomes the hegemon's wings, lifting her out of the dark time in her life.

It's better than a meandering flame, wandering through life without purpose or attachment.

Likewise, her Emperor class also hints towards the Hegemon Husk form. She still has her curved horns

Well done, Fantasy Invader, you've noticed the ironic ram horns in Edelgard's post-skip design.

and clearly visible boobs,

Oh, shit. Don't worry, I can make her SFW! I can fix this!

Okay, we're good now.

she has feathers on her shoulders rather than the wings,

Okay, but the problem here? Hegemon Edelgard's wings sprout from her waist, not her shoulders!

Did FI even double-check the design?

Also, as you can clearly see there's very little in common between her emperor and Heggie designs. Heggie has big pauldrons, an enclosed "skirt", those... red lights, the head-back... thing... while the emperor armor has none of those.

and she's bearing a Crest-stone weapon equipped with the Crest of Maurice

You really are your own breed of dumb, FI. Hegemon Husk Edelgard's power derives from her twin Crests of Flame and Seiros. The game is very explicit about this: it has nothing to do with Aymr or the Crest Stone of the Beast.

tying her to the Devil Arcana

Which is no more inherently evil than any other Major Tarot.

which depicts the goat-horned,

Edelgard wears ram horns. Totally different kind of horns, dude.

They aren't even the same animal!

winged,

The traditional design of the Devil Arcana has back-sprouting, bat-like wings. Edelgard either has black feather decorations on her shoulders, or vaguely wing-shaped protrusions appearing from her waist.

boobs on full display

He's also got a bit of a gut on him. Edelgard, on the other hand, is slim.

demon

Baphomet's actually seen as a deity in some circles.

Baphomet.

He got the name of the figure right, at least.

In Azure Gleam, Edelgard transforms into the Hegemon Husk halfway through the route

For about five seconds, then she yields the position of villain and instigator of events to Thales.

and at the end of Scarlet Blaze, if the extra chapter was done the reward is the aforementioned Crest-stone weapon.

Which you get for sparing the goddess's host. So I guess it's a bad thing that Byleth is alive, now?

So, yeah. I think the grotesque Hegemon Husk is supposed to be a visual metaphor for Edelgard's ideals.

No, it's a metaphor for how far Edelgard will go to see them done without Byleth's positive influence. Just as she's willing to make monsters out of people, she's willing to make a monster out of herself. It's the ultimate irony that she espouses a world for humanity while symbolically and literally giving up her own.

But FI never let facts get in the way of a terrible analysis.

[raxistaicho]

Why does FI seem to believe that Edelgard being “cute” is like… some sort of insidious thing implanted by the writers to trick the player? And not just the end point of making *almost all* the characters in the game appealing and attractive to the player? By this logic than Dimitri is tricking people into thinking his mental illness induced massacres are okay due to the fact that he’s conveniently attractive. It’s such a shallow take, and it’s really strange how it only applies to Edelgard, aka one of the main female characters in the game. Misogyny is one hell of a drug.

It's because the devs specifically brought it up in an interview:

(Source)

He somehow seems to have confused the writers here (because of course he did), as he says the contrast is supposed to be between her "tyrant" and cute side, but actually the contrast, according to the interview, is between how strong-willed she is and how cute she endearing she is in private.

Even sadder, according to a very recent post of his:

He's gotten confused about which aspect of Edelgard is on the surface.

He seems to think Edelgard's endearing side is the surface and her "tyrant" (actually just strong willged) side is the hidden part of her, when that's backwards. We get to see Edelgard the poised, perfect, in-control princess before we see Edelgard the derp girl who wants to eat sweets and draws sketches of the person who metaphorically and literally saved her life. He seems to think that when the devs say Edelgard is cute, they mean physically cute. Her physical appearance doesn't contrast with anything she does in the story.

His ability to analyze fictional media is so bad that it wraps back around to being impressive in its consistent badness.

And, fuck you Fantasy Invader. No Edelgard fan has ever said she's completely helpless and lacking agency in anything, we just disagree that she's responsible for every bad thing that happens. You're the one insisting she has no agency.

Oh, but yes, Edelgard detractors absolutely think Edelgard's physical attractiveness is a dastardly plot by the devs to bamboozle us into forgetting that she's the evil racist genocidal imperialist villain so they would be able to sell more Heroes skins of her. Ignore that Sonia and Ursula are in Heroes and Ursula, in particular, has 2 alternate skins. Clearly villains can sell skins. You'd think if the devs wanted to sell skins of Edelgard they would have just dropped this bizarre 5D chess strategy to evidently confuse us into thinking Edelgard isn't the villain and just... not written her as a villain.

Except they didn't write her as a villain and only her detractors think they did.