A very niche and random Tywin ask, Cersei feels physical revulsion over the Blue Bard's fate, do you think Tywin ever gets moments of "how horrible this thing that I am doing is happening to this person, lets take a break for a minute" ? I could see it going either way and whatever the case he'd never *show* a squeamish side.
No, I think overall Tywin feels fully justified in the horrible things he does, because Tywin is so much more “lawful evil” than Cersei’s "neutral evil.”
When I say that Cersei is a different kind of evil alignment, I mean that Cersei has a very different framework by which she views the world. She feels revulsion over the Blue Bard because her framework is so much more about her, and the blood and torture are making her uncomfortable, and how unfortunate it is that Margaery ~made~ her do this and “soiled” her. Cersei is concerned with herself and she prioritizes herself above all, so the torture is having an effect on her. (I love Cersei and I say these things with love.)
Meanwhile, Tywin views all these horrible things he does as good / right / just / necessary, so doing them is Righting The Universe. It’s (slightly) less about him and more about restoring the natural order of things through atrocities, or at least that’s what he thinks.
Consider that we’re talking about the man who smiled while innocent women and children were screaming and drowning, because it was Restoring The Rightful Order To The Westerlands. There is a touch of Joffrey in Tywin, a part of Tywin that delights in cruelty, even if it’s kept on a very tight leash.
Also, I don’t think Tywin takes breaks.
EDITED TO ADD: When Tywin is like,
[Tywin] shrugged. “I grant you, it was done too brutally. Elia need not have been harmed at all, that was sheer folly.”
There’s a distancing from himself, like, ~these other people like the Mountain did some horrible things that weren’t necessary~ and Tywin deflects the blame, which is very much like how Cersei blames the Blue Bard’s torture on Marg. But I don’t think his reaction is emotional the way Cersei’s is, it’s more, “My minions didn’t follow the precise plan I had laid out.”
I think the closest we get to Cersei’s revulsion is this:
“If Lorch had half the wits the gods gave a turnip, he would have calmed her with a few sweet words and used a soft silk pillow.” His mouth twisted in distaste. “The blood was in him.”
Lannister relationships question. Would Tywin disown/withdraw his limited emotional and extreme material investment in Jaime as he did in ASoS earlier if Jaime ever publicly championed Tyrion as heir to the Rock over say Cersei or Tommen if someone else brought it up? It seems that for over a decade the issue of the Rock's inheritance was just not brought up so I'm wondering if Jaime making it clear earlier that the KG is not a phase for him. Would Cersei feel betrayed or outraged?
I guess I disagree with the premise of this question, that Jaime would disagree with Tywin over the Rock’s inheritance earlier on, because I don’t think Jaime was in the right mental headspace earlier on. Tywin is an abuser, and it can be very, very hard to stand up to the person abusing you. I don’t think that Jaime suffered the same kind of abuse that Tyrion or Cersei suffered, but just because Jaime’s abuse took a different form doesn’t negate or diminish the abuse Tywin inflicted in that abusive household.
That leads into one of the beautiful things about ASOS, to me. You have all three of the Lannister children standing up to, or at least trying to stand up to, Tywin, and tell him - no more. I do not think Jaime could have been in a position to stand up to Tywin without his introspective journey through the Riverlands, which gave him proof that True Knighthood is more than just an ever receding mirage. True Knighthood is real, and Jaime still hopes to grasp it (while also still trying to hold onto his Lannister identity - but as Joanna says, “Count your hands”)
Also, I feel like Tywin was always thinking about Jaime leaving the Kingsguard, he just hadn’t figured out how until the precedent was set with Barristan. If anyone did dare bring it up that Jaime had been disqualified from inheriting, I feel like Tywin would immediately shoot it down, like, he would say, “I’m working on that” before Jaime even had a chance to open his mouth. Tywin is like a steamroller.
"What do I want, you ask? I'll tell you what I want. I want what is mine by rights. I want Casterly Rock."
His father's mouth grew hard. "Your brother's birthright?"
If anyone asked for Casterly Rock, Tywin would be like, “Jaime’s bIRTHRIGHT?!?!”
Also, I am not convinced that Tywin did withdraw his limited emotional and material investment in Jaime in ASOS. Remember that Tywin sent Kevan around trying to win Jaime over to his way of thinking, and he gave Jaime a priceless sword. Giving someone a priceless sword is not withdrawing your investment, that’s investing more. Tywin is just. Really bad at emotions and interpersonal relations and being a person.
How do you see Cersei reclaiming power before her ultimate downfall? Even though she is Lady of Casterly Rock and Queen Regent on paper there are few Westerlords left in the city, her smallest council is dead or missing and the Tyrells are enemies now, the Faith are probably going to side with Aegon and clearly don't think much of her...how does she regain enough authority/ do enough damage to be worth deposing once Aegon shows up? It seems unlikely that she remains a non entity and then dies.
Most of these things haven’t happened yet in the books tho as of August 2019. House Lannister is still a major force in King’s Landing, and House Tyrell is not their enemy because Margaery’s own position as queen depends on Tommen remaining in power. While Pycelle and Kevan are dead, the rest of Tommen’s Small Council is not, at least not yet.
I don’t think the Faith is even aware of Aegon yet? If we’re speaking speculatively, @nobodysuspectsthebutterfly suggested to me previously that the Tyrells may side against the Faith in TWOW if Margaery’s trial ends badly, and then get turned on by their own bannermen. I don’t know what that might mean for House Lannister if it comes to pass, but that seems like an opportunity for Cersei to neatly rid herself of the ~Faithless~ Tyrells.
I do not think that Cersei is ever a non entity, either now or in TWOW; I think she will be a formidable opponent for Aegon, but I think events in TWOW beyond everyone’s control eventually force Cersei and her armies to retreat to Casterly Rock.
Are there any potential brides for Tyrion that interest you? I was thinking earlier about a world where Tyrion married someone from a great or near great house and how delicious that story could be. The wife's feelings about her family 'sacrificing' her for ties to the Lannisters, her thoughts and feelings or lack off regarding her husband, the potential for able bodied grandsons to muddy Tywin's calculations, a potential powerbloc for Tyrion etc. etc.
I’m sorry, I’m not really an AU kind of person! If we do go with an AU, the bride I’m most interested in for Tyrion is Tysha, where they get to live a happy and long and loving life together in a tall manse at the end of a curving street on one of the high hills in the nicest part of Lannisport, and they wake up every morning with the smell of an ocean breeze in the air and a flower box outside their window.
I’m sure there’s lots of political matches that could be done in an AU, like Lysa or Catelyn or Lyanna or Lynesse or Arianne, and I’m sure they could all be interesting, but they’re not for me, sorry!
Hi, you’ve mentioned a few times now the somewhat unfortunate fact that Cersei is saddled with literally every trope from fairy tales and medieval cautionary warnings about evil women in power and its kind of noticeable that she lacks her brothers and uncle’s flirtations with humanity. They all do horrible things but Cersei lacks the virtues that occasionally poke their head up even in service to evil causes and feels in some ways just a life long punching bag of the narrative.
With Tywin and Roose you kind of see them built up and built up before being torn down but the story takes the time to do both and reveals both their monstrous nature but also teasing about how fascinating it would be to see Roose and Domeric or Tywin and Joanna because you know that those loves are a part of them and you want to see how that fits with the rest of them. Cersei doesn’t seem to merit the moments when you desperately want to see her winning Tywin’s secret smiles or dreaming of soaring above the clouds with the wounded soulful Prince she healed with love. Her bits of longing, joy and grief always seem rapidly undercut rather than making me wonder who that person is like the other villains and anti heroes dotting the series.
Sorry for the monologue but I wanted to put some context to the question. If you had five minutes in GRRM’s head or at his ear regarding Cersei would there be anything you would add or take away from her character and plotline or do you think she only works because she is dysfunctional and malicious even by ASOIAF villain standards.
P.S. I adore Cersei I just sometimes can’t help but feel she’s given the least to work with out of all the important Lannisters good, evil or both.
Yeah, I definitely know what you’re talking about; this paper is probably my favorite on this subject. So how would I change ASOIAF when it comes to Cersei? idk I think it would be interesting to have a Cersei POV earlier on, before Robert’s death (maybe the last 3rd of AGOT) to add some more complexity to Cersei’s “Evil Queen” persona in that book. I’d also be interested in her POV in ASOS, because we look at her grief and trauma from the outside for so long, it would be cool to get another perspective. Whether it would work ... I couldn’t say. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ GRRM’s the writer, not me.
If Cersei married Rhaegar and the stars align and they're happy together have a bunch of children and she feels content at least in regards to her marriage and family (I know this is very unlikely given their actual personalities and Aerys) would she still try and cut Jaime out of his inheritance both to have it both ways and keep her lover/ mental self image intact but also to get the Rock for herself? Her part in him taking a white cloak always seemed very self centred or at least careless.
I think both Cersei’s society and Cersei’s upbringing are deeply flawed, and I think these two things contribute to her unhappiness in many AU scenarios, including this one. So unless this AU vastly changes Westerosi society AND it drastically changes how Cersei was raised (preferably away from Tywin) - unless both of those things change, I think Cersei would still be unhappy.
And I think that’s key, because I think her unhappiness at the injustices she suffers is a major factor in her persuading Jaime to give up Casterly Rock. It’s about sharing the misery. (That’s what the Lannisters’ retaliatory policy leads to.) And honestly? In a society that denied me even the most basic human rights and working to deny Tywin his heir was one of the only ways I could protest? I would do the same, I would make sure Jaime couldn’t have it either. idk if I would call that self-centered, if I were the one in such a violently misogynistic society.
I’m not sure that what Cersei did in the books was done to get Casterly Rock for herself, as you suggest. Remember, Tyrion would inherit before her. To me, there was an element of, “Well, if I can’t have Casterly Rock, I’m going to make sure no one else can have it either. Not Jaime, and certainly not Lysa.” I don’t think Cersei wanted her twin to have something that was denied to her.
And remember, it’s not like Cersei issued a royal decree to take Casterly Rock away from Jaime in the books. Cersei talked with Jaime and they had sex, but Jaime was the one who made the choice to give up his inheritance. He took his vows willingly. We know for a fact he wanted to be the white knight Arthur Dayne.
Also, I think Jaime and Cersei love each other. I think Cersei and Jaime have loved each other since before they can remember. It’s love born of Tywin’s Lannister superiority complex - if only Lannisters (and sometimes Targaryens) are people, and everyone else is something lesser, something not quite human, who else is there to love but another Lannister (or maybe a Targ)? - it’s a terrible but love all the same. Cersei and Jaime have a love as twisted and malformed and shadowed as the weirwood at Casterly Rock, “choking out all other growth.” (Choking - get it?) The twins in canon are VERY possessive of each other, and even in an AU scenario like this one, I don’t think Cersei would like the idea of sharing Jaime with anyone else.
In the books, I think the thought of Jaime marrying Lysa was unbearable to Cersei. Cersei was A Lioness, Cersei was A Lannister And Worth More, but here comes little Lysa Tully - who does she think she is, trying to become Lady of Casterly Rock, a title Cersei was *denied*. Well, we’ll see about this. So Cersei ~chokes out all other growth~ and makes sure Jaime takes vows forbidding marriage. So I wouldn’t call that careless - I would call that very careful, very calculating on Cersei’s part, very cold, very Tywin-esque. If Cersei can’t have Jaime, no one can (and vice versa).
I think, in every universe, Cersei would try to keep Jaime for herself, or at least try to keep anyone else from having him. I don’t think she would be a Lannister otherwise.
(If you’re looking for an AU where Cersei could be at least somewhat happy, I think it’s an AU where Westeros has no taboo against incest, and she can marry Jaime, and have Casterly Rock.)
1. Do you think that Alcoholism runs in the Lannister family? Tyrion, Cersei, Gerion and Tytos all seemed to spend much of their later lives drunk and even though there were other factors including basically their entire lives a tendency towards alcoholism can be genetic.
2. Do you think Joffrey is an alcoholic or turning into one? A lot has been said about how he gets Sansa drunk and his rapey reasons for it but he also got her drunk in the very public setting of the Hand’s Tourney whilst Cersei was pestering him to win her over as well and he himself drunk quite a lot on both occasions and then later at Tyrion’s wedding and his own he got very drunk as well. I think that a lot of that is growing up as Robert’s son but if the Lannisters tend towards alcoholism that doesn’t help.
First thing, let’s get some sort of working definition for alcoholic. Wikipedia defines an alcoholic as someone drinking alcohol to the point of mental or physical health problems. My personal definition of alcoholism is frequent excessive drinking over long periods, resulting in serious health / social problems or a failure to fulfill responsibilities.
I think it’s important to have this definition because alcohol is very popular in Westeros. Alcohol is a major export / import, expensive wine is a status symbol for the wealthy, drinking is a social activity, etc. Some people in Westeros, particularly in urban areas, drink alcohol as an alternative to bad water: "Shagga mislikes your muddy water here, so he must drink your weak ale and sour wine, and after his head hurts.“ Not everyone in Westeros is accustomed to wine, including the Stark children in AGOT: "My father only lets us have one cup, and only at feasts”. GRRM seems more fond of describing alcoholic beverages in his writing imo, but he occasionally mentions things like mint tea and milk and goat’s milk and buttermilk.
(Contrary to popular myth, people in the real Middle Ages commonly drank water, and records show that medieval cities spent a lot of money on providing access to clean water. Also there were many popular non-alcoholic beverages in the Middle Ages.)
Second thing, I am not sure where the information is coming from that Gerion spent much of his later life drunk? I am unaware of that in the text. If you or someone else could point me to where that is in the text, I would be happy to have the correction, but until then it is not my headcanon that Gery is an alcoholic.
I am also unable to find reference to Tytos drinking (excessively or otherwise) in the text. We know that Tytos’s bannermen mocked him when they were drunk, but I do not see a reference to Tytos being drunk.
Tyrion’s and Cersei’s excessive drinking probably qualifies as alcoholism. However, I don’t see evidence of alcoholism in people like Tywin or Jaime or Genna or Tywin’s grandfather Gerold or Jason, or if we go further back to D&E still nobody mentions excessive drinking.
For example, I know that we get this from Jaime in AFFC, before he fights Ilyn Payne every night: “Wine had become a part of their nightly ritual.” But I don’t consider that to be excessive or preventing Jaime from functioning. TBH I think this is quite understandable because he’s about to have someone attack him in a fight/training session, and I assume that can be kind of painful. And without modern pain relievers, well, a bit of wine does the trick. I also know that Jaime got drunk with Catelyn, but I do not consider that situation with Jaime locked in a dungeon to be typical.
I feel like if alcoholism ran in the Lannister family, someone would have mentioned it (like “that family of drunkards” or s/t), because many people in the books aren’t exactly fond of the Lannisters and they seem to be happy to make as many digs as possible at them. Even in TWOIAF, where Yandel describes the faults of various Lannister kings, he doesn’t mention drunkenness, which I feel would have been recorded.
Like, I know this is the joke to make, like “LOL those Lannisters, such alcoholics!” but I don’t think there’s much textual evidence for it beyond Tyrion and Cersei, and for them their alcoholism is more of a coping mechanism for all of the abuse and trauma they’ve suffered, because Westeros doesn’t have good options for mental health care.
Perhaps Joffrey might have eventually become an alcoholic, had he lived, but he was literally only 12 years old in AGOT. When he gets Sansa drunk on the Kingsroad, I saw that less as alcoholism and more as imitation of his idol Robert Baratheon. Robert drank and got women drunk and fooled around with them. Similarly, at the feast after the Hand’s Tourney in AGOT, Joffrey’s twelve. I don’t think he knows how to regulate his own alcohol content, let alone Sansa’s, and Septa Mordane – who was supposed to be monitoring Sansa – gets herself drunk and falls asleep, and no one with any power to say “No” to Joffrey is paying attention to him.
So I reallyyyyy don’t see Joffrey getting drunk in AGOT as alcoholism. I see that as a symptom of parental neglect and child abuse, because no one is taking care of this kid nor teaching him how to take care of himself.
When he gets drunk in ASOS, I still think it’s very much in imitation of Robert.
Compare:
King Robert had grown louder with each course. From time to time Sansa could hear him laughing or roaring a command over the music and the clangor of plates and cutlery […] Sansa was shocked to see the king on his feet, red of face, reeling. He had a goblet of wine in one hand, and he was drunk as a man could be.
King Joffrey lurched suddenly to his feet. “Bring on my royal jousters!” he shouted in a voice thick with wine, clapping his hands together. My nephew is drunker than I am, Tyrion thought
But again, this is how Joffrey thinks a king is supposed to behave at feasts, because he adored Robert, and he wants to be like Robert.
So idk, maybe Joffrey would have become an alcoholic if he had lived, but I’m really not sure that a 13yo abused child drinking alcohol should be branded an alcoholic. And if Joffrey had survived, I think Tywin would have done something to try to curb this drunkenness.
