#hotd discussion

[mejcinta]

Alicent could have taken the catspaw dagger as evidence that she's killed Aemond. Rhaenyra will believe he's dead because Aemond would never let anyone take that symbol of legitimacy away from him.

[blackcat419]

Maybe a hot take but is Hugh’s wife Kat a wife in a refrigerator? She faces disproportionate harm from sexual assault, physical assault, and death to act as motivation for Hugh.

[mejcinta]

Maybe Rhaenyra kicked out Mysaria because she was afraid that Daemon would know about their affair

BTS video also confirmed that Rhaenyra has chosen Daemon officially as her example for power wielding, and Daemon is allergic to Mysaria's perspective on ruling. Plus, Daemon can't stand Mysaria, so if she's chosen him, Mysaria will have to go.

[blackcat419]

George R R Martin was right, Helaena’s death doesn’t have a fresh horror to make her end herself. From how the show is laid out, it makes it look like she either foresaw her own death and did it, was saddened by Tumbleton so did it, or she hated being force fed so did it.

Helaena killing herself because she knows she’s a prisoner doesn’t make sense for what has been established earlier because she’s so adamant about making sure her baby lives and wanting to be reunited with Jaehaera. She is depressed but she is not suicidal. As someone who’s been in this mindset, being depressed and self harming does not make you automatically suicidal.

[meleys-the-red-queen]

In the same vein as claiming the book is told by unreliable sources and the show is what actually happened, saying that “it’s hard to do a 1 to 1 book to show adaptation” to excuse the writers changing l everything about the story and the overarching theme of it is also a lazy cop out and a long winded way to say that you’ll just accept whatever slop is handed to you.

They had George RIGHT THERE to help and they spat in his face and on his story. AKOTSK is damn near 1 to 1 and it was a hit. Ryan is just a cocky little shit who thinks he’s a better writer than George and he’s not.

[ggwatches]

In an interview with TV Insider, Ryan Condal explained the reason behind Rhaenyra's dismissal of Mysaria that it was Rhaenyra choosing to abandon Visery's peaceful philosophy and embrace violence, represented by Daemon.

While this makes sense on paper, I don't think the storytelling itself earned this interpretation. The connection between Visery and Mysaria has been poorly established to begin with, but by the end of episode 7, it simply fell part. If she really was an advocate for the smallfolk, why have Sylvi question her integrity? Having Rhaenyra seek validation through Mysaria's empty praises then muddled the connection further because Mysaria was no longer the conscience. Inadvertently, it also shifted Daemon to the position of being the pragmatic, logical voice.

The writers could have given us an in-world reason for the dismissal, such as Mysaria's incompetence as a spymaster, but they decided to leave it out and opt for a dramatic cliffhanger with Rhaenyra saying "no" to Elinda, her lady-in-waiting, expecting the audience to make the connection themselves.

I know that characters are complex and dynamic, but by the beginning of episode 8, the show had already humanized Daemon too much, and stripped Mysaria of her moral authority too much, for that scene to carry the intended thematic weight.

I'm sorry but you can't have your cake and eat it too.

Condal's quote from the interview is below the cut.

"We had always looked at Rhaenyra being torn between Viserys’ philosophy, which is somewhat embodied by Mysaria, it’s somewhat embodied by Alicent in her conversations with them, and then Daemon, which is the fire and blood, ruled by dragons, uncompromising. It’s very, very black and white to him and his empire building and his dreams and ambitions, all the reasons that Viserys passed him over to be king." "Rhaenyra is torn between those two avenues: Asking yourself, can I rule as a woman during a time of war and still be true to the reasons that Viserys chose me to rule? Or do I simply just have to become Daemon in order to win and to hold this whole thing together? From Rhaenyra’s perspective, it wouldn’t be to be an authoritarian, it would just simply be to keep control, to hold the center. She has to make all these compromises as she goes along, and then finally she literally casts Mysaria out and throws in totally with Daemon in the end, thinking that that’s her only way to be seen as legitimate to all of the lords and the people that she’s so reliant on in the end."

[meleys-the-red-queen]

Ulf was literally THE worst person to tame a dragon and absolutely proved Jace’s concerns single-handedly.

The moment he got a dragon, he saw himself as above everyone else and entitled to whatever he wanted (which, so did the Targaryens, hence why they’re the ruling family at the time), but during the Dance of the Dragons, someone inexperienced with no history or education on dragons, and little to no self control is super dangerous.

At least the dragon riders on both sides (Green and Black) were raised around dragons, taught how to ride and command them, and taught the history surrounding them.

He had no experience or discipline. He drank…a lot. He had no respect for anyone or anything.

Him being slapped by Daemon (and Ormund) was justified. Both instances, he disobeyed his leader/commander and did whatever he wanted. In Daemon’s case, you have gold cloaks, TRAINED SOLDIERS, being offed by some random that no one knows or will say who it is. You know who would be a VERY valuable target to take down? A dragon rider. If Ulf dies, that leaves a very large and very powerful dragon vulnerable to be claimed by someone on the opposite faction, or unusable at all. They’d be down a dragon either way.

In Ormund’s case, their entire army relied on Ulf being out there on Silverwing taking out Daemon’s army or at the very least being a distraction for Caraxes (plus putting children on the front lines so that maybe the army/Daemon wouldn’t attack them).

Ulf is a liability to both teams and to himself and everyone around him because look what happened when someone didn’t put up with his bullshit? He threw a temper tantrum and burned a bunch of innocent people. You want people to take you seriously? You want respect? Fucking earn it.

[baelatargaryen]

.....so what are your thoughts on episodes 7&8?

Episode 7: Just a very strange episode, imo - I feel like they wasted the potential of the Rhaena/Nettles stuff? Overall, one of the episodes I liked less this season.

So, first thing: they're obviously speedrunning Helaena's decline in this episode. There is, in fact, an huge issue with how they've written Helaena (well, multiple issues really), and it's not so much Maelor's absence but the complete lack of the long-term effect Blood & Cheese had on Helaena because the show is uninterested in consequences from these major deaths. (See: Jacaerys. See: Jaehaerys. See: Rhaenys. See: Lucerys). So, now, you have a Helaena whose grief was parcelled and packed away two episodes after it happened and who has for the most part been very well adjusted. Yes, Alicent's actions two episodes ago have had some consequences but materially not much has changed for Helaena, so now the show has to pretend that room arrest is bad enough that Helaena's condition is deteriorating at a rapid pace, black eye bags and all. On that note, I don't much care for this season's assertion that "dragons change you", which is oddly backwards, inconsistently applied and unoriginal.

I realised back in season 2 that this show was always more interested in using Helaena as motivation for Alicent or for Dreamer foreshadowing than it was in fully fleshing her out as a character and this has been my biggest issue with her as a character to date.

Onto Aemond's Oedipal dreams at Harrenhal... I'm not against the idea of the show either exploring enmeshment or the blurring of boundaries in a family with incestuous practises, I just don't think the show has a) the time, and b) the capability to write it with nuance or the subtlety it deserves. The entire Aemond-Harrenhal arc feels like they realised can't do a 1:1 repeat of Daemon, or have the time to do it, so half of it just happens offscreen and is alluded to. There was opportunity there to really flesh out Aemond - you could have had Helaena appear to him, or Aegon, or his mother (in a...different manner than this), or a younger version of himself, or a childhood memory. Btw, I do think there is at this point a pattern to how the show utilises Alicent sexually while other characters/relationships remain de-sexualised.

I found myself confused about Baela - she's an adultified teenage girl modelled after Rhaenys who is used by the writers, like Rhaenys was, solely to comment on the inner workings of other characters. Her own motivations remain largely unexplored, as do her relationships to other characters beyond Alyn and Addam this season who the show shoehorns into a random love triangle. If the show is trying to sell me on Baela feeling ostracised or chafing at her duty, it might consider actually giving Baela a scene with Rhaenyra or Daemon at any point in time. Or have her mention Rhaena. Also confused by the 180 of Baela two episodes ago insisting she continue patrolling even when Rhaenyra says she needs rest, to her now saying all Rhaenyra does is use her. Do anyone's motivations in this show remain consistent or are all these characters just convenient puppets for whatever agenda the episode has that season?

On Alicent, I did expect some sort of scene pre-arrival at Harrenhal or perhaps on the road there, or something to indicate perhaps that she would struggle with the act of poisoning her own son but uh...I guess not? I did like Aemond being unable to take her comfort since it uncomfortably paralleled his vision, and I did like the scene of him confessing to Alicent what he did to Aegon. I did find the dinnertable conversation to be incredibly funny - Alicent's "I still don't know who this woman is" did crack me up, although I do find it weird how unexplored Alys' bastardry is given that Aemond was staunchly anti-bastards, a Valyrian supremacist, and is now claiming theirs will be a line of "unsullied kings".

Seems like Corlys being prisoner to Ormund at least gave him some of his personality back. I'm not sure why Ormund, a supposed scholar, would question why one of the last houses from Valyria, the Velaryons, would ally themselves with House Targaryen which I feel is obvious, even without taking into account the might of House Targaryen and that they have in fact been the reigning House for over 100 years. Seems like an odd choice, although I did enjoy the very obvious misstep he took in badmouthing Rhaenys. Good way to bring that relationship back up.

The biggest part of the episode is also the most disappointing. I was 100% on board at least emotionally for the betrayal of Rhaenyra finding out about Rhaena, and it feels like the show completely squandered it. I don't really have much to say apart from that the set-up was all there, and I expected it to have devasting consequences and for the lie to be dragged out to fuel Rhaenyra's paranoia or at least, double down on the betrayal. The entire scene feels like they just wanted to get it over and done with because they themselves understand the merger of Nettles and Rhaena doesn't work. The show is unwilling to make Rhaenyra the type of character to act on feeling betrayed, which means Daemon and Rhaena keeping it hidden ends up feeling largely nonsensical. There's almost no weight given to the moment Rhaenyra finds out - compare this to how the scene plays out when Rhaenys for example gives Rhaenyra the news of her father's death and the usurpation in season 1. The aftermath of it is at least done more justice with Rhaena in her rooms, and Daemon defending himself to Rhaenyra while Rhaenyra purposefully emotionally withdraws from him which sets the scene for Mysaria to get her claws in. But on the whole, it felt like the show did the Nettles-Rhaena thing for the "betrayal" arc, only to then wrap it up prematurely - it didn't actually feel like Rhaenyra was that betrayed by it at all, she even defends Daemon to Mysaria.

I think the Mysaria/Rhaenyra scene was very well done in terms of being transparently a scene of manipulation - her conversation with Silvi reminds her of the first tools of her trade and then Mysaria falls back on them. I'm not sure how I feel about Rhaenyra seemingly calling out Mysaria's transparent attempts at manipulation, only to then fall into her arms anyways? It seems odd and there's not really enough time on screen to explore why Rhaenyra turns to her here - maybe there needed to be some time between these two scenes for Mysaria to ingratiate herself again. I did like the subtlety of them reusing what sounds like Rhaenyra and Daemon's love theme from 1x07, but a more discordant version of it I believe to indicate the underlying wrongness.

The Ulf-Ormund reveal was something that's a nice twist, but I did wish there was some hint of it beforehand. The conversation indicates they've been meeting for some time - it would have been nice if there was some subtle nod towards it, for example Hugh coming to Tumbleton for his watch and Ulf being late and Hugh asking where he was. And the "no, they will burn" did seem weirdly, uh, fanatical from Ulf.

One other side note is the Torrhen Manderly stuff: I may have missed it but is there an in-universe explanation given for why Rhaenrya isn't enforcing a tax? (I do, by the way, question the overall pattern of making show!Rhaenyra the person who wrongs everyone, as opposed to being the one wronged.) If show!Rhaenyra (unlike her book version) wants the support of the smallfolk who have been made vulnerable without the protection of the Goldcloaks, the majority of who resigned due to lack of pay, it would seem like a tax should be something to be considered. And at the very least, they could have had someone advise Rhaenyra against it to provide a reason as to why no one! is installing! a tax! Instead Rhaenyra shrugs her shoulders and quips, "I don't know what you want me to do about it", which is pretty much on par actually with how interested this show is in actually doing politics. If the show wants to explore the struggles of statesmanship, you'd think it would take more interest in it than this. Remember when in Game of Thrones the Iron Throne being in debt was a major issue?

Lastly, Aegon/Sunfyre. I was looking forward to this moment, although I didn't expect it to happen like that. I guess I can appreciate that the show didn't do a complete cop-out and evidently is playing up Aegon's mania once he has Sunfyre burn the men sent after him, but I did originally think it would be a more emotional reunion. Evidently, they've given Aegon a kind of version of Rhaenyra's last stand in the book, with him refusing to flee from his death.