#kuro103

[midnight-in-town]

Uhm, sorry in advance if this ask doesn't make too much sense but at the end of the Green Witch arc, Sasha says 'You hear about deserters once in a while' and wonders why they would try to leave the Shinigami Dispatch Society; however, would he have questioned this if he and Ludger were seriously considering the possibility of a shinigami being part of O!Ciel's lineage a couple of chapters ago? Do you think this could refute the UT grandfather theory?

Hello Anon and sorry for the delay ! Don't worry, you make sense, but actually I think these are two different topics. :)

Considering this scene in ch103, I just don't believe...

...that Sascha and Ludger were hinting that Cedric was a deserting Shinigami, which is why "it runs in the family". Because of ch105 and discussing deserters like you said, but also, how would they even know by looking at that family tree ?

Sure maybe, Cedric's birth and death years are hidden to us readers in that panel because he was several decades or centuries older and it's written on the tree but, since Shinigamis technically aren't allowed to interfere with life and death, I don't think noticing weird birth and death years would have immediately led Sascha & Ludger to the conclusion that "Cedric K. Ros- is a deserting Shinigami".

No, I rather think that Sascha and Ludger put two and two together that the Phantomhive family is burdened by the Watchdog duty because they have this weird lineage "running in the family".

Because, as I explained before, I don't think, even if Cedric is UT, that he's the explanation behind the lineage thing. Because I'm sure Claudia also had weird abilities, which is why she received the Watchdog title despite being a woman, like our!Ciel and like Frances.

So I rather read this scene in ch103 as Sascha realizing that "Earl Phantomhive, they who undertake the dirty work of the British royal family... oh, because they have this ability that runs in the family and allows them to detect supernatural beings !".

Keep in mind, I could be wrong, but I don't think ch103 is meant to draw attention to the whole Cedric = UT thing, that has more to do with ch105. Ch103 is purely about the Phantomhive lineage, so it has more to do with our!Ciel's direct predecessors.

I hope it makes sense ? Have a good day Anon. :))

[midnight-in-town]

About Vincent’s attitude in the flashbacks (ch131/132)

I want to address two different things, the first point because it is strange, the second point because I saw a lot of possible misunderstanding.  

1) Vincent and foreshadowing

I want to talk about this scene that left me a bit ???...

because nothing particularly important is being said and yet Vincent says something that sounds like a premonition with a rather ominous face and what made me address this is that it’s not the first time. 

So, here I am, wondering if the possible regular pattern doesn’t mean something in particular, because we also had a possible foreshadowing moment about the current arc (probably referring to the twins’ conflict itself) from his own mouth in ch107.5…

And I already made a post on the subject, but in ch131 we had several Evil Nobles showing up on the same day as Vincent asking Diedrich for a favor, namely, to look after his sons should anything happen to him, 3 years before anything actually happened to him, as if he was expecting something to happen to him soon.

…going as far as to add after “You never know”:

In case you were wondering, yes I know this sounds crazy and I had never considered something as random as “Vincent had small precognitive powers” before this chapter, but I find that this makes for a strange and regular pattern.  And yes, for all we know, it’s just Vincent breaking the 4th wall because Yana enjoys writing him like that, but still...

We also know, thanks to ch103, that the Phantomhive family share a special lineage, even if the details are still unknown to this day, aside from the fact that it allows our!Ciel to see Shinigamis when he shouldn’t be able to. 

Obviously it’s hard to reach any conclusion until we see more flashbacks of Vincent, but it’s something to keep in mind in my opinion, just in case it’s useful later. x)     

2) Vincent and our!Ciel

This other point focuses solely on ch132 and starts with this scene:

Judging by Vincent’s silent glance, I agree with @akumadeenglish‘s interpretation that he was carefully observing his sons’ reaction and ideas at the time. The big question is, whose words did he appreciate the most?

I know many might think that it’s real!Ciel’s, since he seemed like the perfect heir when our!Ciel was weaker and not supposed to inherit anything, however I think ch132 is actually full of hints that Vincent took a real interest in how our!Ciel was thinking.

If you don’t believe me, take a look at the discussion with Frances:

...because Vincent initially seemed to be quite out of it as she made her point that the Watchdog duty would be too dangerous for our!Ciel, going as far as to answer pretty dismissively to his sister...

But I personally didn’t read this scene as Vincent just shrugging it off because he didn’t care about his second son dying, or what should happen to the family if his heir died, but rather because he simply didn’t agree with Frances on the matter of our!Ciel not being strong enough to take on the Watchdog duty. 

The second hint is that he took both his sons with him when he went to inspect the domain...

...even though many readers interpreted his words from before as not being very trusting of our!Ciel’s abilities. However, if he really didn’t think that our!Ciel could be a good and strong heir, then why did he even take him with him and real!Ciel in the first place? Why didn’t he appear to educate them differently, except maybe when it comes to fighting?

Finally, not everyone might want to call these hints, but this is Vincent in the side story With Father! and ch107.5:

And he doesn’t seem to particularly dislike the fact that our!Ciel is the current Watchdog (in case you were wondering, he never calls him “Ciel” so we can safely assume he knows which son’s adventures he’s reading x)). 

So back to this scene...

I think he actually found our!Ciel’s words interesting because, compared to the twin, our!Ciel’s proposition seemed more genuinely good-hearted and thus different from what he might have been expecting from a potential future Watchdog. However, this isn’t really surprising when we know what our!Ciel wanted to do as an adult and why.

Our!Ciel is kinder at heart and appears to be more selfless than his twin brother and I believe Vincent caught on that through our!Ciel’s answer (”granting everyone’s wishes sounds difficult”) & that it's what possibly interested him.

Because friendly reminder again that Vincent said that Kuroshitsuji (so literally our!Ciel acting as the Watchdog) was “interesting” and that it was something “the Undertaker recommended”, which means that Vincent seems to agree with UT when it comes to our!Ciel:

3) Conclusion?

1 => I don’t know how seriously we’re supposed to take Vincent’s words when he speaks about the future (see the examples above), because there is still a possibility that Yana enjoys breaking the 4th wall with using his character.

However, considering we still know nothing about how supernatural the Phantomhive lineage might be, I’m going to keep these examples in mind just in case there is a reason Vincent can foreshadow things.

2 => I don’t think Vincent ever casted off his second child (our!Ciel) as being weak, useless and not making for a good heir because:

he didn’t want to address the subject with Frances

he took our!Ciel along with real!Ciel when he explained what the duties of a lord were

there are hints that he shared UT’s opinion on how interesting it is that our!Ciel appears to act and think differently from the rest of his ancestors.

I hope it was understandable, thanks for reading!

[midnight-in-town]

In BB chapter 116 do you think the man before Cloudia is her husband (Cedric?)? Nina created a dress for Lizzy too in the past, she doesn't dress just watchdogs.

Hi Anon! Ah, of course Nina doesn’t outfit the Queen’s Watchdogs only but still, nope, I think the man we see before Claudia is her predecessor (her father maybe?) because… 

you can also catch sight of him in ch15, when Randall explains about the Watchdogs & the Phantomhive family.

The only way for this man to be Cedric would be to say that he was Claudia’s predecessor and she became the Watchdog after he tragically died one day because Vincent was still too young, but…

Cedric clearly wasn’t born a Phantomhive, so he couldn’t have been the Watchdog. So I strongly doubt it’s him before Claudia on these panels.

I hope it answers your question Anon, have a nice day!

[midnight-in-town]

Ch14 & ch108: parallels?

As a follow up to this post about what the family lineage might be.

I definitely spoke about this before, when ch108 came out and for an old analysis I did of Frances’ character, but it’s been over two years since then and lately I was wondering once more...

...if what awoke within Ciel during the arc in Germany, allowing him to see the Shinigamis, was activated only from time to time or became permanent.

Thus here’s a reminder of the parallel between Frances and Ciel both staring at Seb’s face for no particular reason (Ciel more than Frances, since he literally said it was nothing when Frances called Seb names afterwards), when they both share the Phantomhive lineage.

I can’t be sure whether it was made on purpose or not (I do agree it sounds super random though), but I personally always took that part (above) from ch108 as a possible hint that the lineage thing somehow activated in ch103 and is now permanent, meaning that Ciel’s eyes can see things that he couldn’t before: 

like shinigamis even when they’re supposedly hiding themselves from humans

and possibly even through Seb’s human disguise as well.

TL;DR what runs for generations in the Phantomhive family may be the ability to spot either just Shinigamis or supernatural beings in general, and: 

this could be how Claudia met UT

and what the guy who spoke to Kelvin was implying when he emphasized on “that Phantomhive family”

Feel free to share your thoughts!

[midnight-in-town]

Random thought is random and probably wrong, but I wonder why the “that Phantomhive family” is emphasized on, in the flashback of ch32?

I mean, initially I thought it was because the people from the cult knew about the Watchdog’s duty being the Phantomhive family’s responsibility, so they thought it was joyful to use the Watchdog’s sons as their lambs, because the Watchdog was dead and wouldn’t go after them.

However, now that I noticed the clear emphasis (warning, cracky thought)...

...since that cult was dealing with demonic and occult topics, if there somehow were rumors in those circles that the Phantomhive family was... different (as in “gifted”), then maybe that’s another possibility as to why the man who talked to Kelvin (and the whole cult) seemed so joyful about the Phantomhive twins becoming their lambs for the sacrifice?

Something to keep in mind. Feel free to share your thoughts. :)

[midnight-in-town]

Hiya! I have a quick question that may already have been clarified but I can't stop thinking about it! We learn in the series that generally only humans close to death can see Shinigami (I believe?) yet it appears that Lizzy can see Grell on the cruise ship. Does this mean that she will die soon? I'm just a little confused and was wondering what your thoughts were! Thank you!

Hi Anon! Ah, I believe there are two possible explanations for this but they come down to basically the same thing. I’m aware it’s something that’s often misunderstood frequently though so I’ll explain the full thing. :)

First of all, it’s often forgotten but Shinigamis have the power to hide or reveal themselves to human eyes, it’s something they choose to switch on and off by their own will. Examples of shinigamis allowing themselves to be seen by humans:

when Grell was Madam Red’s butler

or when UT was working as a mortician

or when William was investigating the circus,

or when Ronald was on the Campania

or Grell and Othello in ch125

However, when Shinigamis choose not to be seen by humans, they become invisible to human eyes, except in two very specific cases:

1) the human who can see them is actually going to die soon

2) some humans have a very specific lineage allowing them to see Shinigamis, that’s the example of Ciel and his family:

In Lizzie’s case during the Campania arc though, her seeing Grell never was meant to imply that she was going to die because:

either Grell chose to be visible to human eyes at the time

or Grell chose to remain invisible to human eyes but Lizzie being a Phantomhive could still see them regardless.

That would be the two theoretical possibilities as to why Lizzie might see any Shinigami in general, despite not necessarily dying “soon”.

Back to the Campania, the explanation that is the right one is that Grell chose to be visible to human and demon eyes at the time

and that’s how Lizzie, Ciel and Seb could see both them and Ronald back then.

I might as well include a friendly reminder that it seems that Seb, like most humans who don’t belong to the two exceptions stated in ch103, can’t see/sense Shinigamis unless they choose to be seen.

TL;DR no, Lizzie was never meant to be dying “soon”. It’s just that on the Campania, Grell and Ronald (and UT) chose to reveal themselves to human eyes. :))

I hope it helps, have a nice day!

[midnight-in-town]

Now that Yana confirmed Vincent and Francis had the same parents, if Cedric is really Undertaker then that means he was committed to Claudia? Because one child could mean an "accident" after a passionate night but two children? And Claudia raised as if they were born within marriage means that maybe Undertaker and Claudia were an "official couple" and maybe married? Too many thoughts, I'm sorry...

Hello! Haha, I love how you’re presenting this and I can totally understand the confusion. :) Honestly, I have one hint that I once introducedhere and that might help if we’re to try and make Cedric K. Ros–” fit somewhere in Claudia’s life (whether it’s UT or not), but this is all really hypothetical.

Anyway, assuming that Yana is aware of how inheritance used to work during the Victorian era (seeing the twins and the fact she likes to research about what she writes), if Claudia was the Watchdog, then there are two big possibilities in my opinion:

she was trained by her dad, who was the previous Watchdog and Victoria allowed her to take on this duty because it’s a special title

she married the man who was supposed to be “Earl Phantomhive” and the Watchdog, but he died when Vincent was very little and so she became the Watchdog in Vincent’s stead, until he would be old enough to act as the Watchdog

Possibility one => the most complex and we’re assuming that her father was the one who was the Watchdog before her…

and thus that he probably also held the title “Earl Phantomhive”, two generations before Vincent. 

The thing is though: if Claudia ended up becoming the Watchdog, it was probably because her father had no direct male heir (no son) which means that, while he might have been able to train his daughter to be the next Watchdog, the lands and title of “Earl Phantomhive” were to be for the man who was his heir (which is to say, a nephew or a cousin).

But the thing also is: Vincent became the Watchdog and “Earl Phantomhive”, which means that the only way for Vincent to receive both titles was because Claudia married her father’s heir to the “Earl Phantomhive” title and Vincent was thought to be his son.

AND YET, THE THING IS…

…That the family name of Vincent’s dad’s isn’t “Phantomhive” (it’s “Ros–”) when Claudia’s is, and when the family name of whatever cousin or nephew who was her father’s heir should have been. 

So, in that situation, it seems that…

…No matter if “Cedric K. Ros” is UT or not, Claudia wasn’t married to the father of her children (*whispers* naaaasty….).

Possibility two => Claudia was a cousin to the main branch of the Phantomhive family (or whatever) and she married “Earl Phantomhive”, who was the Watchdog for a very short while because he soon died, leaving behind a very young Vincent as his heir. 

So Victoria, who really needed a Watchdog but who couldn’t use Vincent because he was too young, asked Claudia to become the Watchdog in Vincent’s stead until he was old enough to replace her. 

However, the conclusion here is the same as above if we’re to stay coherent with the family tree of ch103:

because “Ros–” from ch103 means that it’s likely that Vincent’s biological father wasn’t the husband of “Lady Claudia Phantomhive”, otherwise Vincent wouldn’t have a different family name from his father.

Obviously this theory (Cedric =/= “Earl Phantomhive” & Claudia’s husband; Cedric = UT?) only works:

if Yana decides to follow inheritance based on primogeniture where the Phantomhive family is concerned (which, considering the twins, is what it sounds like but I don’t want to assume anything)

if we’re to also assume that the Watchdog title was always held by the man who received the “Earl Phantomhive” title (or his wife, in Claudia’s case)

if Claudia didn’t do something crazy, like managing to give Cedric K. Ros the “Earl Phantomhive” title somehow (because she was allowed to choose as the Queen’s watchdog for example) even though he was not blood related to the Phantomhive family.

TL;DR since according to ch103 the family name of Vincent’s (and Frances’) father is “Ros–” and not “Phantomhive”, it might be that Claudia’s husband most likely wasn’t the father of Claudia’s children. So, if UT is Cedric K. Ros, then he might be the father of Vincent and Frances but he wasn’t Claudia’s husband and the previous “Earl Phantomhive”, which would fit, when you look at the relationship he apparently had with Vincent: 

Because Vincent called him “Undertaker”, and Diedrich and Klaus didn’t seem to think he was anyone special, meaning that if there is any actual blood relation between the two, then Vincent didn’t know (or didn’t show he did). 

……Also the funniest part of this theory (in my opinion) is that it means that Vincent, similarly to our!Ciel (even if not for the same reasons), took on a title (”Earl Phantomhive”) that wasn’t his in the first place. xD

Sorry for this insane explanation, Anon. :) Keep in mind that it can only work if the Phantomhive family was subjected to the same laws of inheritance as every other noble families (that is to say, if Yana knows about how it worked/makes it that way for them) and if I’m not mistaken in my understanding of how it’s supposed to work. 

EDIT: more information and possibilities on the subject!

I hope it was understandable, have a nice day Anon!

[midnight-in-town]

d'you think UT 'i love the twins equally' would have said the same thing to Vincent and Frances the first time he met them when he was helping their mom?

Hey Anon xD In my mind, it’s something he could have said, yes, though we don’t have any hint as to when UT met Vincent (and Frances), if it was when Claudia was still alive or not?

Anyway, hypothetically speaking, it doesn’t strike me as odd with his characterization, unless his theoretical promise to Claudia was meant to only be for the ones who would take on the Watchdog duty. It depends on why exactly he’s watching over the P family, but since he seemed to treat both twins as the same when one of them wouldn’t have become the Watchdog, I’m supposing that, as Claudia’s daughter, Frances would have been treated the same way as Vincent, at least until she married out of the family (since she would have been “safe” then). 

I like to think that this possible promise of him includes Lizzie too, since she’s supposed to marry into the P family and, as a girl who was taught to be strong and to fight, she’s bound to be interesting enough (when compared to her grandmother Claudia) for UT to enjoy keeping an eye on her. 

That’s all theoretical though. xD Ah, man, I’d really enjoy reading some canon UT & Liz interactions…. Oh, well.

I hope I answered your question, have a nice weekend Anon!

Hello, thanks for reading Anon! :) If you mean that theory then I guess some details have slightly changed, yes. It’s down to 50/50 for me but I still like the Cedric = UT theory, because:

it gives UT a name 

it gives a possible explanation to Ciel’s strange lineage in ch103 (and I like when things explain other things, it means spending less time on finding a different answer)

As for the matter of “can Shinigamis reproduce or not?” (since it’s the main reason that I’m fifty-fifty about this theory), some people have shared very good arguments that, as technically “dead”, it can be strange to think that they can make babies. However Yana stated that, despite their nature, they still need to eat and sleep, and we know that they can have the hots for someone else (seeing Grell’s innuendos), so I’m wondering if that really means that reproduction is out of the question. 

We don’t know how Shinigamis…exist when it comes to their soul. What I mean by that is that they’ve committed suicide so they are dead, but they obviously still have their soul otherwise they would be like Bizarre Dolls and the death scythe wouldn’t be deadly for them just like for any other human (or demon). 

So, for reproduction to be forbidden by the rules would be one thing, but I am still not sure whether it’s biologically impossible or not. 

The other thing is that the Shinigamis in ch103 mentioned a lineage so whichever explanation you go for, it has to involve at least two generations of Phantomhives, if not more. Besides the Cedric = UT as the explanation, I also like the theory that says that the P family was cursed long ago (?) and that this lineage of theirs is the reason they’re the family who is in charge of being the royals’ Watchdog.

Finally…

I could be totally biased here, but the fact that Yana went as far as to precise the initial of Vincent’s father’s middle name has me thinking that this Cedric dude will get a little focus at some point in the story (whether he is UT or not, I mean).

Anyway, all I’m saying is that, while this theory might not please some readers, we all know (thanks to the 2CT) that it is Yana’s thing to foreshadow important reveals and, for now, we’ve got only one nameless important character (UT) and one faceless grandfather, with Claudia as the common point to both. Might be an easy link to make, but sometimes I like simple theories. xD

I think that should be all that isn’t in the original theory. Sorry for the long answer, I hope it helps!

Have a nice weekend Anon. :)