#lemongate

[magmachan]

🔥❄️ 𝐋𝐲𝐚𝐧𝐧𝐚 𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐡𝐞𝐫 𝐝𝐚𝐮𝐠𝐡𝐭𝐞𝐫 𝐃𝐚𝐞𝐧𝐞𝐫𝐲𝐬 , 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐩𝐫𝐢𝐧𝐜𝐞 𝐰𝐡𝐨 𝐰𝐚𝐬 𝐩𝐫𝐨𝐦𝐢𝐬𝐞𝐝 ❄️🔥

[dxrksister]

“She had loved the scent of winter roses.” — “never a breath stirring the still blue air... The whispers became a swirling song...” — “Promise me, Ned”

"Not everything is a clue. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. But sometimes it's not." -(Live Journal,2013)

"The timeline of the Tower of Joy events is tricky. I might have gotten some details wrong." -(Entertainment Weekly it, 2015)

"Keep reading" and added that the red door is not just a memory of Daenerys' happy childhood. There will be a lot more about these doors in TWOW."

[greenbardasoiaf]

Lemongate VIII: Spider Spins, Cheesemonger Ferments (Foments)

Thus far in the series we’ve covered how GRRM switched the real location of the house with the red door in Tyrosh with the false location in Braavos. We theorized that Dany and Viserys’s in that house was sabotaged by Illyrio Mopatis and Varys in a conspiracy to put Aegon onto the Iron Throne, while foiling Dornes plot to support Viserys. We also discussed how the 4 loyal men that rescued Dany…

[sleepanonymous]

I almost captured lemongate when I was in Albuquerque and I need to SCREAM about it 😭😭😭

At least I caught IV looking cute in his mini spider weed sombrero 🥲

[canthelptoloveit]

Like okay. Unsure of the popular opinion (on tumblr, at least) bc im only on my first read but it's VERY clear to me that Lemongate (intentional or not) doesn't function as an actual conspiracy or "plot twist" like some people think. Like I don't believe it "means something deeper" along the lines of a Dornish or Tyroshi or whoever conspiracy. Like I feel like that's pretty obvious at least from my own interpretation. I also don't think it's too terribly far out of the realm of possibility to suggest that it arose out of a mistake or firstbookism (and the rumored scrapped idea of Dany growing up in Tyrosh) but i also very much believe there's something to be said that the 'no lemon trees in braavos' thing has been doubled-down on in more recent stuff. And it's not like the red door & lemon tree line is some one-off. It's a very significant piece of character motivation. Which is why lemongate is significant to CHARACTER MOTIVATION & Dany's journey rather than some plot conspiracy thing like ive seen predicted.

Like maybe I've just spent too much time on asoiaf reddit recently where the only form of subtext or symbolism or authorial intention they've heard of comes as plot foreshadowing but like. It's very clear to me lemongate is about Dany as a character, not some plot point. Like she longs for the house in braavos with the red door and the lemon tree growing outside her window -- in short, a home. Yet Dany is an exile, and this dream of home in her head is just that: a dream, because just as lemon trees don't grow in braavos, Dany has never truly had a home anywhere. THATS what lemongate is about. It's about how the only home Dany will ever have she will have to make herself. "Dragons don't plant trees" -- but they will have to learn to if she ever wants to make that dream a reality.

[istumpysk]

OPERATION ICEBERG: THE TIER LIST

THEORY:

Lemongate

TIER:

People's Choice! I swear to god, if you guys screw this up...

Under Consideration: These theories haven't garnered strong or extensive evidence, but they're worthy of discussion.

vs.

50/50: These theories are complete toss-ups.

vs.

Low Probability: While not impossible, these theories are unlikely based on the current evidence.

vs.

Long Shot: These theories are largely speculative, based more on wishful thinking or obscure hints than on solid evidence.

vs.

Debunked: These theories have been directly contradicted by the text, George R. R. Martin, or other authoritative sources.

[Tier list overview]

EVIDENCE:

What is Lemongate?

That was when they lived in Braavos, in the big house with the red door. Dany had her own room there, with a lemon tree outside her window. - Daenerys I, AGOT

The theory argues that lemons can't grow in Braavos, therefore something about Daenerys' childhood has yet to be revealed.

What could it be?

It depends on who you ask. The problem with this theory is that it serves as the foundation for many other theories, making it extremely difficult to cover.

The possibility that Daenerys never actually lived in Braavos has led to various speculations, including but not limited to the following:

The big house with the red door was in Dorne.

Daenerys Targaryen isn't really Daenerys Targaryen, and has false memories of her childhood with Viserys Targaryen.

Daenerys is the daughter of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark.

Daenerys is the daughter of Ned Stark and Ashara Dayne.

And that's just scratching the surface.

For the sake of my sanity, we won't delve into all that nonsense. Instead, we'll focus solely on the question of whether lemons can grow in Braavos and, if not, what the hell is going on.

Okay, do lemons grow in Braavos?

Maybe? Daenerys seems to think so.

That was when they lived in Braavos, in the big house with the red door. Dany had her own room there, with a lemon tree outside her window. - Daenerys I, AGOT

But there's some issues.

For starters, trees don't really grow in Braavos.

Beyond the harbor she glimpsed streets of grey stone houses, built so close they leaned one upon the other. To Arya's eyes they were queer-looking, four and five stories tall and very skinny, with sharp-peaked tile roofs like pointed hats. She saw no thatch, and only a few timbered houses of the sort she knew in Westeros. They have no trees, she realized. Braavos is all stone, a grey city in a green sea. - Arya I, AFFC

x

The stony maze of islands and canals that was Braavos, devoid of grass and trees and teeming with strangers who spoke to her in words she could not understand, frightened her so badly that she lost the map and soon herself. - Samwell III, AFFC

Braavos is built on a lagoon at the northwestern end of Essos.

(map!)

It is often described as foggy, with a damp, cool, maritime climate. It draws significant inspiration from the city of Venice, Italy.

The day looked to be a rare one, crisp and clear and bright. Braavos only had three kinds of weather; fog was bad, rain was worse, and freezing rain was worst. But every so often would come a morning when the dawn broke pink and blue and the air was sharp and salty. Those were the days that Cat loved best. - Cat of the Canals, AFFC

x

"Winter is nigh upon us. The day I left Braavos, there was ice on the canals." - Jon IX, ADWD

It's not an ideal climate for growing lemons, as the text humorously notes.

"Seven hells, this place is damp," she heard her guard complain. "I'm chilled to the bones. Where are the bloody orange trees? I always heard there were orange trees in the Free Cities. Lemons and limes. Pomegranates. Hot peppers, warm nights, girls with bare bellies. Where are the bare-bellied girls, I ask you?" "Down in Lys, and Myr, and Old Volantis," the other guard replied. He was an older man, big-bellied and grizzled. "I went to Lys with Lord Tywin once, when he was Hand to Aerys. Braavos is north of King's Landing, fool. Can't you read a bloody map?" - Mercy, TWOW

It's nothing like Dorne, a more suitable place for a lemon tree.

Anguy shuffled his feet. "We were thinking we might eat it, Sharna. With lemons. If you had some." "Lemons. And where would we get lemons? Does this look like Dorne to you, you freckled fool? Why don't you hop out back to the lemon trees and pick us a bushel, and some nice olives and pomegranates too." - Arya II, ASOS

x

There children frolicked naked in the sun, music played in tiled courtyards, and the air was sharp with the smell of lemons and blood oranges. - The Captain of the Guards, AFFC

And to the author's credit, he appears to fully understand the conditions under which lemon trees can and cannot thrive.

Sweetrobin loved lemon cakes too, but only after she told him that they were her favorites. The cake had required every lemon in the Vale, but Petyr had promised that he would send to Dorne for more. - Alayne I, TWOW

So you can see why it's a bit puzzling.

Has anyone ever thought to simply ask George about it?

Of course. If you had the opportunity to ask George R. R. Martin anything, why wouldn't you waste your moment on something as stupid as this?

George was asked about the discrepancy, and surprisingly, he was uncharacteristically forthcoming. He acknowledged that it's very perceptive to pick up on a detail like that and playfully hinted that it points to something else.

Dany remembers a lemon tree outside the house with the red door in Braavos, but citrus trees shouldn't really grow in Braavos's cold, foggy climate. Is this discrepency significant? Does it point to future revelations about Dany's past? Thank you so much. Very perceptive of you. Yes, it does point to . . . well, that would be telling. - George R. R. Martin

In that case, is Lemongate confirmed to be real?

No, not exactly.

Despite what he said, there's really no hints in the text concerning any secrecy around Daenerys' upbringing.

Ser Willem Darry was in Braavos, a fact that could be confirmed by several people.

"It is a secret pact," Dany said, "made in Braavos when I was just a little girl. Ser Willem Darry signed for us, the man who spirited my brother and myself away from Dragonstone before the Usurper's men could take us. Prince Oberyn Martell signed for Dorne, with the Sealord of Braavos as witness." She handed the parchment to Ser Barristan, so he might read it for himself. - Daenerys VII, ADWD

And while trees are rare in Braavos, they do grow in the gardens of the wealthy, where you'd expect Daenerys to be. It's not out of the question that a lemon tree could grow there. Lemon trees can also grow in Venice, Italy.

Trees did not grow on Braavos, save in the courts and gardens of the mighty. - Samwell III, AFFC

Compare one questionable lemon tree to how the author handles Jon Snow's parentage, and you can see why the theory has some issues.

Then what the hell is going on?

I believe one of three possibilities exists.

POSSIBILITY #1

Daenerys lived in a nice big house in Braavos with Ser Willem Darry, and there was a lemon tree outside her window. Nothing weird is happening.

POSSIBILITY #2

We have another instance of an unreliable narrator, who is rewriting a past event that never existed.

Daenerys is chasing a red door and a lemon tree that were never truly there, and she'll never reach her destination. It's a commentary on the futility of her entire objective.

POSSIBILITY #3*

(*also known as the real reason)

At the last minute, George changed the location of the big house with the red door from Tyrosh to Braavos, resulting in a humorous inconsistency in the story.

Yes, it's really that simple.

Blood of the Dragon was a novella published in the July 1996 issue of Asimov's Science Fiction magazine. It is based on the Daenerys chapters from A Game of Thrones and was released before the book itself.

Here's an excerpt:

That was when they had lived in Tyrosh, in the big house with the red door. Dany had slept in her own room there, with a lemon tree outside her window. After Ser Willem had died, the servants had stolen what little money they had left, and soon after they had been put out of the big house. Dany had cried when the red door closed behind them forever. They had wandered since then, from Tyrosh to Myr, from Myr to Braavos, and on to Qohor and Volantis and Lys, never staying long in any one place.

Whoops! Something's different.

The big house with the red door originally being in Tyrosh isn't surprising, given that ✨ we know ✨ Daenerys speaks with a Tyroshi accent.

The merchant must have taken her for Dothraki, with her clothes and her oiled hair and sun-browned skin. When she spoke, he gaped at her in astonishment. "My lady, you are … Tyroshi? Can it be so?" "My speech may be Tyroshi, and my garb Dothraki, but I am of Westeros, of the Sunset Kingdoms," Dany told him. - Daenerys VI, AGOT

You'd have to spend many of your formative younger years in Tyrosh for that to be the case.

As Irri and Jhiqui helped her from her litter, she sniffed, and recognized the sharp odors of garlic and pepper, scents that reminded Dany of days long gone in the alleys of Tyrosh and Myr and brought a fond smile to her face. - Daenerys VI, AGOT

Amusingly, this now-deleted part of her history was somewhat alluded to when her mirrored image twin from Tyrosh was introduced to the story.

The Tyroshi sellsword was not a good man, no one needed to tell her that. - Daenerys V, ASOS

x

"Is it Daario? What's happened?" In her dream they had been man and wife, simple folk who lived a simple life in a tall stone house with a red door. - Daenerys II, ADWD

Many inconsistencies and discrepancies are present throughout the series, but they are especially noticeable in A Game of Thrones.

Lemons grow in Tyrosh, but they don't typically grow in Braavos. It's a detail the author overlooked when making the simple change, and I guarantee you this is him poking fun at himself (and the Lemongaters) for the error:

"Seven hells, this place is damp," she heard her guard complain. "I'm chilled to the bones. Where are the bloody orange trees? I always heard there were orange trees in the Free Cities. Lemons and limes. Pomegranates. Hot peppers, warm nights, girls with bare bellies. Where are the bare-bellied girls, I ask you?" "Down in Lys, and Myr, and Old Volantis," the other guard replied. He was an older man, big-bellied and grizzled. "I went to Lys with Lord Tywin once, when he was Hand to Aerys. Braavos is north of King's Landing, fool. Can't you read a bloody map?" - Mercy, TWOW

So, we can probably put it to rest.

But George himself said it was pointing to something??

Aww, adorable.

If you've been paying attention to George R. R. Martin for any amount of time, you should realize that if there were something truly significant about lemon trees not growing in Braavos as part of a secret plot yet to be revealed, there's no way in hell he would ever answer that question in that manner on LiveJournal.

Allow me to finish his sentence for him,

Dany remembers a lemon tree outside the house with the red door in Braavos, but citrus trees shouldn't really grow in Braavos's cold, foggy climate. Is this discrepency significant? Does it point to future revelations about Dany's past? Thank you so much. Very perceptive of you. Yes, it does point to . . . [my changing the story and overlooking a minor detail, like an idiot.]

Fine, but why did he switch it from Tyrosh to Braavos?

I don't know why, but you should stop overthinking this, and we should move on.

(because of arya.)

STUMPY'S THOUGHTS:

I'd like to think Lemongate has been debunked, but I'll leave it to the people to render their verdict.

Does Lemongate amount to nothing? Absolutely. Do lemons grow in Braavos? Not really. Is the house with the red door a symbol of an idealized past she'll never be able to replicate in her future? I don't doubt it.

Many things can be true here, but one thing that's not is that she lived in Dorne, and Lyanna Stark is her mother.

VOTE:

Which tier does the Lemongate theory belong to?

Under Consideration

50/50

Low Probability

Long Shot

Debunked

Voting ended onSep 18, 2023

NEXT THEORY:

Oberyn poisoned Tywin

[Main menu]

[breakincase0femergency]

THEORY: Stormborn Evidence

Both Stannis and Daenerys have contradictory stories about what happened at Dragonstone post-Robert's Rebellion. Stannis and Davos imply that taking dragonstone was a military feat comparable to the Battle of Fair Isle and withstanding the Siege of Storm's End. The other implies the garrison was willing to turn the Targaryens over and there was, "a storm so fierce that it ripped gargoyles from the castle walls and smashed her father's fleet to kindling." ASOS

Theory: the storm Daenerys claims destroyed the Royal fleet never happened (or wasn’t that bad) because there are ships in the BARATHEON Royal fleets at the Battle of the Blackwater named: 

Prince Aemon: Likely named after Prince Aemon during Maekar or Aegon V’s day or before.

Princess Rhaenys: probably after Rhaegar’s daughter, mb built during Aerys II's reign.

Queen Alysanne: named for targaryen Queen Alysanne, probably built and named during targaryen reign.

What does this mean? Somehow ships constructed during Targaryen reigns and a part of the Targaryen royal fleet ended up in the Baratheon fleet despite Dany's claim they would be destroyed.

THEORY: there was no storm. These ships were captured by Stannis at Dragonstone. Daenerys is named for the Storming of Dragonstone.

Counters to this: The ships were elsewhere! LIKE at King's Landing during the sack or they survived the big storm!

Ok, I say, but this is still probable evidence that can be added onto Daenerys' contradictory backstory (or Viserys' telling of it). I'm not saying Lemongate is real, just adding some new evidence against the idea there was a great storm onto the fact that special-irreparable-stone Dragonstone isn't damaged & no one else remembers the storm.

[renegadekaty]

Lemongate: Because GRRM has said that we will have an explanation at some point, I can't just write this off entirely, but I can't think of an interesting explanation for it. Like yeah, maybe she did live in Dorne for a bit. Or maybe the Sealord of Braavos had a greenhouse. Or maybe GRRM just made an error and has to fix it in post. But regardless I'm not really sure what it does for the story... Ideas? We already know the Martells were planning marriage pact(s), so unless Dany has hallucinated this memory or something because she has a brain tumor, IDK what it matters.