#persona problems

[sillyfudgemonkeys]

Persona Q2 Problems: Lore-Summoning Discrepancy

Ok, so this is something that’s been bothering me for a VERY long time, it was something that caught my attention back when they were just advertising the game (if anyone is wondering, it was how the cognition worked in this game…and that questioned snowballed to say the least into what this was), but I wanted to wait till the game came out to talk about it (took really long cause I wasn’t sure how to approach it, I mean this thing came up as about 7ish pages in GoogleDocs so like....yeah 8U lotta writing). 

Before I begin, yes I know there are different ways to summon persona. Yes they can coexist in the same series, that isn’t the issue. The issue is how P5 and onward’s lore has been handled. I also wanted to do a complete replay of Arena, Ultimax (esp this one cause it’s a bit funky with the DH and red fog), and PQ1 buuuuuuuuuuuuuut due to events (aka me working despite Corona happening), I didn’t get around to it yet. So consider this a “version 1″ post, with the possibility of there being a “revised version” later. I also won’t really touch on P1/2 much (I’ll bring them up a few times), not because they aren’t important, but because this mostly pertains to PQ2 and the games associated with it.... as well as my sparse knowledge on P1/2 (so I’m sorry in advance if I mess something up while talking about those two games ;w;). We also aren’t talking about P3D, P5D, Royal or Scramble (maybe I’ll include Royal/Scramble in the possible revised/add on/sequel post to this but not now….cause spoilers….and PQ2 came before those so I’d rather focus on what built up to it rather than what comes after).

Also yeah some of this will contain a theory (the theory parts is me trying to reconcile canon and it’s at the end of the post, the rest is me pointing at a hole in the canon/lore tho.... so no this isn’t a glorified theory post, I’ll point out when I’mma enter my minor theory). Anyway, under the cut cause length! 8U:

So first we’re gonna start off with a question. At one point my bf asked me “What dictates why the characters summon the way they do in their games?” To which I replied, after thinking about it for a decent minute, “Setting......maybe with some god interference but it’s usually cause they created that setting, so really it’s just the setting.” If we look at all the games, they all summon things a bit differently (P1/2 being the closest in similarity, with P4 being the closest to them among the newer titles), but what also is different in each game is the setting. 

P1 does a Jojo summon cause of a Parallel world, P2 does Jojo poses thanks to the rumors, P3 uses evokers (but otherwise they can just make it appear if they concentrate hard enough, or if you are a VR attendant then you use cards) thanks to the Dark Hour (DH), P4 uses cards (but like P3, can sometimes just summon without manifesting a card similar to P3’s evoker-less summons and P1/2 summons) thanks to the TV World (TVW), and P5 uses their masks thanks to the Metaverse. 

So next (2) question(s).....What would happen if you take one team and put them in another teams’ world? How would they summon their persona’s then? Well.....it depends on the setting, but spoiler for the rest of the post....they would either use cards/no cards (ala P4 style, from here on I’mma just say “card style” but keep in mind cards may or may not be utilized), or have a PT outfit/mask summon (aka P5 style). OR, if they are struggling and have an evoker on hand, then they’d use an evoker (but not if it’s in the Metaverse). So to use an evoker, they’d have to struggle with summoning in a P3ish type area (which keep in mind is similar to a P4 type area), and if they aren’t struggling then the default would be P4 type summoning (I mean they could still use the evoker if you want, but the card style is the default tbh). Oh yeah there’s a lot to unpack there. You see, P3/4 can exist together without issues, P5.....can’t.....with either of them…..At least not without certain rules being established in a setting, and then ALL THREE having to follow those rules. (Tbh it feels like the P5 era/PQ2 specifically, they seem to prioritize iconography over logic. Aka “Well P3 used evokers because they are P3!” rather than looking at the implications of the world they are utilizing and instead prioritizing something the audience will recognize rather than following the rules they have built.)

Ok so I know I just threw a ton of facts at you, so let’s backtrack and explain how I know these are facts by going through the games (cause I know you can’t just take my word for it)!

Now, how do P3/4 work well together? It’s simple.....the DH and TVW are similar (TVW is a more...”potent” DH and makes it easier to summon things), well similar in feel as Arena states:

Ok so they are similar in feel, and tbh the means of being able to summon a Persona is similar too! P3 kids don’t NEED evokers, it’s proven that characters can summon a Persona without a need of an evoker in both the DH and Real World (ex: Labby in Arena when escaping the lab, Mitsuru in The Answer flashback, Fuuka in Arena iirc, Takaya all the time in P3, Chidori when her Persona tried to kill her, and possibly Tatsuya/other P2 characters prior to the rumors going rampant during the P2 game), HOWEVER it’s very hard to do so. It usually requires intense concentration, or a rush of emotion or a life/death situation (which all examples fall under one or both). The evoker is designed to help facilitate this life/death feeling (*cough* tho it takes the shape of a gun cause Mitsuru thought it’d catch Akihiko’s attention*cough* I mean Koro doesn’t need it being a gun so the shape could be whatever they just chose a gun so they could seduce Akihiko 8U). But regardless, the evoker is a man made tool that helps one summon a Persona (aka creates an artificial focal point), but it’s not a natural focal point made by the user (ie, card, clutching your head/no card/possibly P1&P2 style, or P5′s mask), so really anyone can use an evoker. (one more side tangent since we’re on focal points, as for how P4 can have two different ways of summoning, ie card/no card, it could just be that the TVW allows different forms of a natural focal point to form, either via thinking of summoning the Persona, or having your mind form a physical card in front of you, so the setting of the TVW gives a choice to the user)

Now remember when I said that the TVW is a DH that’s easier to summon Personas? Or that if a user isn’t struggling then the default is the card/P4 style summoning and not the evoker? Well Arena showcases how easy it is to summon in the TVW:

So there we go, it’s easier to summon in the TVW than the DH. Can’t argue with that! The reason is probably because DH is a layer on top of the Real World, so it’s closer to reality, while the TVW is closer to the Collective Unconscious/aka CU (aka the TVW is an alternate world, rather than a camera filter like the DH is), so that could explain why it’s easier. 

So what have we established so far?:

DH and TVW are very similar, but TVW is probably more is closer to the CU than the DH (while the DH is closer to reality), which makes it easier to summon in the TVW. 

Evokers can be used by anyone because they are a man-made tool, but they aren’t natural ways of summoning like show cased in P1/2/4/5. 

P3 cast can summon Personas like P4 cast, and theoretically vice versa is probably possible if they ever gave the P4 cast evokers.

Now from Arena, we will go to PQ1, then Ultimax, then briefly on P4D before we get to P5. (I’m doing PQ1 before Ultimax because I’m doing the it in the order of the JPN release not the US release, and no I’m not counting the arcade Ultimax release 8U)

So let’s look at PQ1. Now from my memory....I don’t recall them really talking about the P3 cast specifically not being able to summon their personas without their evoker in the PQ1 world. Like they talk about their differences in summoning, but I don’t think the P3 kids tried to summon without their evokers. And the reason I bring this up, because we could probably say this is a discrepancy too, is because the P4 kids still use their card style, which means the PQ1 world is similar to the TV world, where it’s easier to summon via using the cards. And since the P3 kids can use the card style, in a setting that allows card styles…..that means they could summon the same way the P4 kids can in PQ1! But the P3 kids don’t have the same thought process as they did in Arena, where “oh we summoned our personas without our evokers! Only just thinking about it!” And like....that’s a red flag....BUT, as I said before, evokers and cards can exist at the same time. In Arena/ Ultimax the human P3 users (minus maaaybe Junpei) use their evokers when doing a finisher. So we could just chalk it up to them being used to it out of habit. It also helps that Arena was released not long before PQ1, so we know they can both exist at the same time thanks to prior knowledge. So like yeah there’s a tiny issue here, but nothing glaring or a very big deal, it’s just them avoiding addressing something rather than creating a contradiction. Maybe in a remake they’ll add a line saying “huh that’s weird, still gonna use my evoker cause we’re used to it.” XU And it’d be all good.

Now Ultimax is a little.....more concerning. Technically there’s a dark hour....but you can summon without your evoker (and also they call the Fake!Dark Hour F!DH taking place in the “real world”):

Now I can’t remember the rest of Ultimax to that specific of a detail, so I dunno if they 100% explain why/how the F!DH it’s easier to summon than the DH, but they really seemed to hint at the red fog in these early scenes (where I rewatched to get the screen grabs), with it having some influence and possibly being the culprit behind the anomaly (I’d say the same thing for the TVW, but Teddie says Shadows have been there since forever, and Izanami only found the TVW not created it, she did bring the fog, so it’s possible the fog isn’t what dictates summoning in the TVW just TVW as a place, but in Ultimax the combination of the red fog and the F!DH makes the setting more palpable like the TVW rather than the original DH. So yeah F!DH needs special fog to work, but TVW doesn’t really need for summoning to exist it seems). There’s also the fact...Kagutsuchi is also there and his power might also have something to do with this cause, remember at the beginning I said sometimes there’s a god messing with the place to make that setting viable for summoning Personas? Yeah that’s probably what’s going on. Red Fog+Special DH+Kagu’s influence=TVW levels of card/natural summoning. Not the cleanest, but hey they at least tried giving us a reason! I’m at least happy for that! ;w;

So after briefing on the small issues (or just plot questions with PQ1/Ultimax), now for P4D. P4D it’s possible to summon your persona like in the TVW, but you can’t fight. So you instead dance to defeat your enemies.... So the area is similar to the TVW, BUT it has special rules (implemented by the god, so yeah a little god influence on the setting, but still the setting nonetheless is what dictates the summoning). Yeah that’s it, but it just strengthens the setting dictates stuff. 

So again, to reiterate what we know:

If a place is like the TVW, then card summoning is the default. 

DH and TVW are similar, but DH is a….”less palpable” TVW (probably cause it’s farther from the CU), so while card summoning is possible, it’s better to use the tool/evoker to help you. 

The F!DH, PQ1 world, and Midnight Stage are all similar to the TVW so card summon is the default. 

Evokers can be used in card summon settings, but they aren’t needed. 

Anyone can use an evoker

So....let’s get to P5. P5 has the Metaverse, which has A LOT of distortion and cognition. I mean it’s possible that P1-4 have some cognition, but the Metavers is just…..there’s an abundance! Anyway, we know that P5 has outfits because it protects the user against the world (kinda like the TVW glasses, but unlike those, they aren’t a tool anyone can just.....use. Teddie makes the TVW glasses, PT outfits come with the summons). But they only get their cool outfit once they obtain their personas (either via fully or partially awakening their Persona, the persona has to at least be awakened). Thus the Persona is connected to the outfit, and the outfit is connected to the environment/setting. I should note that unlike the above screenshots, which are explicitly stated in the lore, this is implicitly stated instead. Something that isn’t outright said, but it’s backed up via consistency and repeating it (also this is the first consistent thing I found in P5! Yay! ;w;)

Anyway, it makes sense right? And without the need for an evoker (which...causes issues thanks to that world’s rules on guns), it seems that the natural way for summoning in a Metaverse-like setting, is a mask summon.

Ok. Now what’s the issue with PQ2?! 4-5ish pages in and still no answer I know. Well the answer is all three can’t exist at the same time. P5 can’t compliment either P3/4. Either P5/4 has to adapt to P3’s way of summoning, P5/3 have to adapt to P4′s way of summoning (aka everyone needs an evoker or everyone card summons), or P3/4 have to adapt to P5 (aka everyone gets an outfit and mask summons).  And here’s why:

We know P3/4 characters in a TVW like place can summon their personas like P4 kids. So it doesn’t matter what game you are from, if you are in the TVW you summon like the P4 kids. P5, if one has a persona in a Metaverse they should have an outfit, because P5 vanilla establishes that (again it’s implicit but nonetheless it’s established). So P3/4 kids should get an outfit if they were in the Metaverse because it’s the only logical thing that makes sense (aka this isn’t confirmed by Atlus, but by following the logic of their lore, the explicit content, and the implicit content, it leads to this conclusion). 

The issue is…. PQ2 tries to apply DH’s, TVW’s, and the Metaverse’ rules all at the same time.....that doesn’t work. While DH and TVW complement each other, TVW becomes the default if the two are combined. “But Silly you said that P3 cast can use Evokers in the TVW” Yes! But you see PQ2 doesn’t understand that....Because..... Minato couldn’t summon his Persona when he lost his evoker and had to rely on Aigis the entire time:

From what I can find, he’s never shown summoning his persona (even in a life/death situation, which is also odd in and of itself and a whole other issue) during this time. I don’t think it’s ever mentioned it’s because he’s tired, just because he lost his evoker. Except this shouldn’t be the case, because P4/5 can summon just fine WITHOUT an evoker, so an evokerless summon should be possible. And that’s the issue with PQ2 that PQ1 avoided, PQ1 didn’t call attention to this, while PQ2 made this a plot point and...well...made a really big plot hole (and a side plot hole with the whole life/death thing).

 Then there’s the DH and the Metaverse. Now Atlus was trying to fix the gun and evoker issue that well…..was created because of….(what is what got this post rolling) “Cognition.” Cause the Metaverse is like “If the gun looks real then it’s perceived as real! Even if it’s a fake gun.” And well….evokers are real guns who have been hollowed out (in english releases they changed it to fakes tho, but they are actually real guns). And well evokers and the Metaverse don’t mix well, and we’d have a lot of headless SEES. So Atlus tried to be like “Oh it just doesn’t work here!” But…….that reasoning doesn’t work, because the PT still have their outfits, and Mona is still in mascot form, which exists because of….you guessed it…”cognition”. And because of all that it leads to these questions:

Does this mean there’s a specific quantity of Cognition that needs to be met for there to be outfits but for fake guns not to work?

So how can there be enough cognition to dictate that they can have outfits but NOT guns?

How can Mona still be in his cognitive cat form at the lobby, but the rest of the team reverts back to their normal clothes despite both being connected to? He’s only ever in that form when the other teams are in their PT form (only time he isn’t is in PQ2’s lobby, and the early PVs of P5 which never appeared in the game)

Why doesn’t the P3/4 cast have PT outfits, despite the fact having a persona in a cognitive world indicates a PT outfit (at least implicitly via P5 vanilla)? 

Basically how is it that the P5 Kids are the only ones that seem to be affected by the Cinema’s World Cognition but no other groups are? Answer, there is no answer, it just doesn’t make any sense! And that’s just P3 and P5!

Now we have Metaverse vs the TV World. While they are both natural means of summoning, they can’t coexist at the same time. They are like night and day, they can’t exist at the same time in the same place. If there is that much cognition in the Cinema world, then everyone should get an outfit! Otherwise they’d just use cards! You have to choose one!

“But Silly! What if it’s how they obtained their personas? Like maybe the way P5 got theirs is why they are special?” And…...that’s the thing dear reader….that’s not the case. Because let me introduce my Smoking Futaba Cannon! You know what Futaba has in common with the P4 group? THE SAME KIND OF AWAKENING! Her awakening is different from EVERY OTHER P5 CHARACTER! Her awakening is the same as the P4 kids! She accepts her shadow, and gets her persona! But do you know two things are different between Futaba and the P4 kids? 1) The setting, and 2) She gets an outfit! :0 Oh dear, she gets an outfit….and…..the only thing different from the P4 kids is the setting? Wow it’s almost as if….the setting dictates how you summon a persona! :D So because Futaba, who’s awakening is a P4 awakening, gets an outfit. Then ALL P4 kids, who have a P4 awakening, now get an outfit when they are in the Metaverse! But wait! Remember how P3 was able to easily change to the P4 style of summoning? Well since P3 is similar to P4 in this sense, and P4 is similar to Futaba, who has a PT outfit…..then P3 would get an outfit as well! You get an outfit! You get an outfit! EVERY PERSONA USER GETS AN OUTFIT! 8D 

So what do we know now?

DH and TVW are similar, but if combined then the TVW rules overrule the DH rules

The DH seems to be closer to reality, while TVW and Metaverse seem to be closer to the UC which is why it’s easier to summon in the latter two.

The F!DH, PQ1 world, and Midnight Stage are all similar to the TVW so card summon is the default. 

TVW and Metaverse can’t coexist at the same time (one has to overrule the other)

Evokers most likely can’t work in the Metaverse the same way they can in DH or TVW. 

Evokers can be used in card summon settings (aka TVW) tho, but they aren’t needed. 

Anyone can use an evoker (or have Teddie glasses 8U)

Only Persona users (either fully awakened or partially) can obtain a Metaverse/PT outfit.

Awakening doesn’t define how you summon Persona, the setting does (see Futaba vs P5 and compared to P4).

Because of Futaba, P4 kids should get outfits in the Metaverse.

And because of Arena and how the P3 kids have the same summoning in the P4 setting, it goes to say they’d also get outfits in the Metaverse too.

If reverse engineer this, then that’d mean P5 kids would get cards in a TVW-type setting (or would have to use evokers in a DH type setting).

I spent way too much time on this

It all comes together! Nice and neat! Arena establishes that you get a card summon when you are in a setting like the TVW, and P5 establishes that Persona users get PT outfits in the Metaverse (with Futaba showcasing  it doesn’t matter how the awakening goes down you still get an outfit, which applies to P3/4). So, if the setting is like the Metaverse, they get outfits. If the setting ISN’T like the Metaverse, BUT INSTEAD, like the TV world, they do card summons. There the lore is nice and neat and clear cut!

…..EXCEPT! PQ2 …...just….makes no sense. ;w; It messes with all that is good and neat. ;w; And why? I don’t know! I can only think that, again, they chose the iconic looks of each game over the lore’s logic. Even if they were to say Enil made it so that the three types of settings could exist at the same time, it’s just…..too messy and wishy washy, and still doesn’t logically make sense (because of everything explained above). You can’t just mix water and oil! It’s just easier to choose a Metaverse or TVW type setting. 

Now how do we fix PQ2? This is something Atlus can fix in a re-release on like the Switch, and it shouldn’t be too bad depending on how they approach it. But before I get to that I’m going to explain a theory, this theory makes it easier to break down the different settings, and thus gives Atlus a nice binary choice.

My theory is that there’s a cognition spectrum in these settings. Real life has the lowest to non existing cognition, the P1/2/3/4/4U1/4U2/4D/Q1 are all on the “low cognition” side (there’s some but there’s not a lot) while the Metaverse is “high cognition” (aka there’s a lot). Like here’s a rough (aka not 100% accurate, it’s just a general idea) depiction of what I mean:

Again it’s just a general idea on where they fall in terms of high and low cognition. P5 is obvie a new entry with us now exploring high cognition, which can lead to maybe a couple cool things. Maybe different places on the high cognition spectrum give us different ways of summoning too (give me a sec for a side tangent to explore that concept). Here’s an example, we have one high cognition plane called the “Metaverse” and another one called “Uverworld.” In the Metaverse you get a PT outfit, and summon with a mask. In the Uverworld, instead you take on your Persona’s appearance, either Digimon Frontier style or Digital Devil Saga style. We could say the Uverworld has even more cognition/distortion than the Metaverse and that’s why it’s different. And if any persona user from P1-5 were to summon their persona in the Uverworld, they’d summon it the same way as the Uverworld Persona users. And the Uverworld Persona users would summon the same way as say P4/5 depending on if they were in the TV World or Metaverse. This is how we can keep the lore consistent.

Now how does this high and low cognition apply to PQ2, and how could it have fixed it (and still could if Atlus makes these changes in a remake/re-release)? Well basically….they’d have to choose between a TV World type setting or the Metaverse, and have all three teams adjust accordingly! And they can either do what I call low asset route or a high asset route (which coordinate with low and high cognition respectively). 

A low asset route, would’ve worked better for the original release on the 3DS (but I don’t recommend this for Switch re-release tho). It’d be that the PQ2 world operates like the TV World, everyone uses cards. That’d mean no one would get PT outfits (so less assets to make for the devs, and yes this includes P5 kids). Morgana, however, would have to remain in cat form (which shouldn’t be a problem, if we can give a dog a knife we can give a cat a knife 8U you can even have his character stats reflect something similar to Koromaru for the meta too!). P3 could still use their evokers if they want too! P5 the kids would probably crush the cards doing a similar pose they’d make if they had a mask, but tbh PQ doesn’t really show the characters in battle so we wouldn’t really need to worry that much. 

Or we could go with a high asset route (which I recommend for a re-release), in which there’s high cognition, aka the Cinema world is more like the Metaverse. Everyone would get an outfit, and cause it’s the metaverse you can introduce a gun mechanic into PQ2! It’d require more assets, making outfits for all the characters (tho keep in mind Mona should transform back into a cat and out of his outfit in the lobby like everyone else!) Which we’d probably really only see in cutscenes rather than battle. While this could complicate some scenes (such as Hamuko dressing up as a police officer-wait that scene already doesn’t make sense considering P5’s lore-no no stay on topic DX), the rewrites wouldn’t be as as if you took the low asset route (which would work if thought of from the beginning but….yeah). It’d just be a few convo lines, and like a scene or two. One big thing they could add is adding the gun mechanic (they can even add a fun convo with the P3 kids saying it’s hard getting used to the new summoning method). Fans would love to see outfits for P3/4 kids, lore would make sense, you could have funny conversations, new combat system. Def a thing people would love to see added into a re-release! Plus it gives it more of a P5 flair, and considering this has P5 as the main focal point it fits! You can even say that the 3DS ver is still canon, but it was an incorrect recollection of a character’s dream, which could explain the inconsistencies I have mentioned before. 

Oh and Minato/SEES can still carry their evokers in both scenarios, but Minato just gets tired from all the fighting and can’t summon his Persona anymore cause he ran out of mana. There that fixes that scene.

So there you go, PQ2 fixed (well summoning lore wise), Persona lore intact, and even a little guideline thrown in to help keep the lore intact! I know I didn’t go into how to rewrite every scene to adjust these changes….I could but not today. 

Anyway I dunno how else to end it but…...I hope PQ1/2 can be ported to the Switch (or another console as well?) soon! I just really want a dub of PQ2 ;w; orz

[aeolist-meg]

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[sillyfudgemonkeys]

Welp it’s official PQ2 broke me

Me: *writing the last bits of the Persona essay* Me: So yeah this might complicate parts, such as Hamuko dressing up as a police officer-Wait.... Me: Hammy dressed up because the PT said they couldn’t change out of their outfits.... Me: But P5 there’s an exact plot point when they were able to just.......take them off when fighting the pool deck boss on Shido’s ship.....(to which the PT outfit came flaming back when they got into trouble)....and wait P5 mentioned how we have no choice but to wear our thief outfits when deemed a threat but then....how could the girls have been able to change into swim wear..... Me: .....does......does not.....does not compute......d-d-d-d-does...no-no- does not-does not c--c-c-c-c- does not compute....  Me:.......... Me: *crying* This franchise is tearing me apart! ;w; The only thing not tearing me apart is Lisa tho! 8U

[sillyfudgemonkeys]

@moldygreenblue (tumblr why are you always like this? ;w; lemme tag) 

I believe I went off on her a little before (outside her dungeon, x) Anyway Futaba’s there for a number of reasons:

 I hate her dungeon, her shadow, just her whole arc from a lore perspective. The rules are broken....no...shattered for her, not just P5′s rules but previous games’ rules. (I think I mentioned it in these posts x, x, x, btw these are all pre Royal.....Atlus probs saw a post about it and was like “we need to add doubts in Royal maybe now it’ll make sense!” srry boo but she says it’s no her mom and her cognition should reflect that right away you still messed up, also too little too late).

I’m pretty sure I remember talking about how I do no think she is a good representation of mental illness, she basically is cured with the “power of friendship” after a week (of being conscious), and they only use her lingering issues when they need it for plot reasons (on top of the fact iirc the writing between main story and CoOp is contradictory, iirc she’s like “MC you’re the one who saved me! I can only go out if I’m with YOU!” and then the next day of one of my playthroughs Yusuke literally picks her up and she’s like “oh I’m fine now, and it’s thanks to EVERYONE!” and it’s just....pandering for a romance in that CoOp). It pisses me off she’s the rep for mental illness. 

She takes up too much screen time, and it feels like a lot of actual issues/obstacles we could just....overcome is instead made so we NEED to use her (I’m looking at you dungeon 3 of PQ2, you can suck it, Fuuka should’ve been the focus, literally makes no sense for Futaba to be the focus????) 

Ties into point 1 but still deserves it’s own point. I hate how she’s like “THEY STOLE MY HEART! THEY CHANGED MY COGNITION!” but....we didn’t.......we literally didn’t. Did we help/save her with our intervention? Yes, but it’s not cause it was supernatural, we just showed up for her. Did WE solve her issue supernaturally.....no....not really, we didn’t get a chance (remember how....there was no treasure! oOo yeah we go into her Palace, but that’s not really changing her, it’s us going in irl and being like “yo ya gotta go outside! get that sunny D!” than us screwing with her dungeon). She solved it herself, Yaldy gave her the app, she ran into her Shadow, she accepted her Shadow, she solved it on her own. Not only is it a straight up lie, and conflating someone changing their mind/”heart” with the PT way of changing hearts (as well as the fact you know....we didn’t change her cognition, she did), but it also reduces her own involvement in her own healing process and overcoming the obstacle herself. We were just the spark, the rest of the flame emerged from Futaba. Like listen, the IRL stuff we did was important, but when it came down to the wire, it was her own memory and faith in herself and her mom that helped her confront herself and her false memories (because y’know...she couldn’t hear us). And it pisses me off that the writers would take something important to a character and her message, away for some bullshit reason.

I dunno some times she acted like an ass and it was just annoying, I already had Makoto/Yusuke/Goro/MC(even Mona/Ryu at times, to other’s not each other, obvie they do it to each other) kinda getting away(or have gotten away) with that without much reprimanding. (and tbh, anything that could possibly be redeemable, is either nonexistent, or overshadowed by the fact she’s mostly just there for her be connected to a literal mother of a plot device, no her hacking isn’t needed you have superpowers and another world WHY do you need to rely on her????literally states in the first dungeon you can’t use a phone camera in the metaverse even, but for some reason a laptop is fully working?????I know one is part of the phone and the other is a comp but it’s our only tech we know/can relate back to, so what does it mean Atlus? Is the comp allowed but the phone isn’t? Why? Just explain. Here’s one I just made up for you: Phone has to have the app open at all times in the metaverse! Or, actually no tech works well in the Metaverse, which means no laptop, one or the other choose please)

Oh she kinda screws us over, until we joined we didn’t have any connections to doing anything illegal. Yeah she throws that out the window. I mean we can always sell her out, but we are her enablers/accomplices.

Someone I know who was studying hacking at the time (for their work) was like “she’s kind of pulling that shit outta her ass.” And it hurt them to watch any of her scenes play out (I think the wire tap was the one thing she got a pass on tho). It doesn’t help it’s not really explained enough (so they can see if it’s plausible). To them it’s cringe, to me it shows convenience for the story (obvie I care more about how it hinders the story skadlfj;alfj and if it’s like they say, it annoys me even more). 

Spinoff wise I hate how she tries to grope Anne and Makoto in P5D, and I hate how she takes up a shit load of screen time in PQ2 (I don’t care Hikari is a shut in, gdi Fuuka earned that spotlight in dungeon 3, it makes no sense why Futaba would do it, hell Fuuka should’ve been chiming in due to her knowing what it’s like to be bullied, same with Rise iirc she was also bullied, like god damn, PQ2 really went “We’re gonna give all the screen time to P5 kids even tho they won’t really do jack shit with most of it, and just have P3/4 kids chime in enough to remember they exist”) 

Basically I don’t like what she brings to the table, esp since the game makes us rely on her. She doesn’t spark the exact same amount of rage that Makoto does (tho if you saw me my last playthrough during Futaba’s dungeon I’d say it’s pretty close), but it does feel insulting from a long time fan/lore fiend/just a freaking viewer trying to consume the medium that’s seeing there’s some toxic stuff in her writing (and I don’t mean “toxic” I mean “it’s really bad to freaking think that friends will fix your mental health, it won’t, and it’s unfair to you and your friends to even think of putting that onto them” bad levels of thinking). 

I also find she’s a wasted opportunity, such as “oh what if we solved this mental illness with supernatural means? what could possibly go wrong? Esp with how drastic the change is for other people we’ve done it to! :D” *cough* *cough* If only they figured out that’d be kinda interesting *cough**cough* Oh mean what a violet coughing fit, I mean violent.... >.> *in a bad canadian accent* I really need soome air eh?..........8U ANYWAY, the biggest role she serves (besides spotlight stealing to justify having a hacker), is a connection to her mom and showcasing that even “good people” can have palaces.....sadly the latter seems to fall on deaf ears on even fans of this game.....and the writers/characters. So uhhhh good job failing at the latter (for awhile at least), and uhhh....we could just NOT have the former! I think the gov could be shady without them also getting in on supernatural stuff but that’s just me. 030

[sillyfudgemonkeys]

Persona 5 Problems: Makoto/Sae’s father

Everyday I’m more pissed that their father wasn’t some two faced cop who worked with the Mafia (yeah I know we already have two not so good father figures but EFF THAT developing an existing character is more important)......Because it would’ve been SOOOOOOO beneficial to their development. 

No you don’t understand a lot of things would make SO much sense! Sae’s attitude towards her father in this case especially. This time it’s not just “oh he off and died on us” (I mean he died from a mafia hit??? in the game it sounds like he was just walking around minding his own business when the hit happened, it wasn’t even in like a mafia shoot out where he tried to be a hero), instead it’s “This person who I looked up to, who I held as a moral beacon, turned out to not be who I thought he was. Everything about him is now tainted, even the profession I chose because I wanted to be like him and catch criminals, it’s now tainted. I hate him, but I still love him. I can’t let Makoto know who he really was, I won’t let her view be tainted either.” It makes more sense why she gets prickly about her father when brought up, it makes sense why she can’t/won’t talk about him in Makoto’s presence. Why Makoto thinks so highly of her father, but Sae does not. Instead “he just left us” becomes a cover up for how she truly feels.

Sae finds out via the higher ups at the police force (either they brought her in or she accidentally overheard and then confronted the people talking), apparently a few other officers were the same, it was the police’s way to make sure order was maintained between them and the mafia. But to the public, they covered that up with a lie, saying how upstanding he was. It saves the force’s face this way, and they talk Sae into the same thing. “It’d do horrible things to your reputation, it’d hurt Makoto, and so on and so on.” That’s why Sae keeps quiet, but it’s eating her up inside.

Makoto, she doesn’t know. Now it can go a few different ways (depending on the rewrite, but in this case let’s pretend it’s as close to the main game as possible). Her arc is more super focused on questioning authority rather than not following orders (I know it kinda has both, but in the game it’s more the latter or it’s framed as more the latter and it doesn’t really work since she still does follow orders, so we’re just gonna triple down on just questioning authority). And it’ll be more fleshed on on the why (which is not what the game did, which is key imo to fleshing out her character), and let’s change the whole “useless thing” to “you’re just a child who doesn’t know anything” and “can’t you just do as you are told?” (more broader and targeted towards her issues atm). Until the Kane arc she’s never needed to question authority, her father instilled that people in higher power usually know what’s best for society (yeah I know kinda insidious). 

Now let’s just hop and a skip to when she meets Kane, in this case after finding out his name she’s instead kidnapped instead of her running in like a moron. Because Kane heard her last name was “Niijima,” a familiar name in the underground. Both from her famous sister and infamous father. This is where she finds out about her father’s history, here world is flipped upside down. Instead of a pointless stress out that she caused to Kane, he instead proactively chooses this as a means to make money. Mako’s sister has been throwing her guys in jail left and right, which means less guys to collect money, which means less money for him. He doesn’t like that, and he has blackmail. Before no one in the underground opening revealed the Hero Cop Niijima was actually dirty, the reasoning could be because there was no real need plus info is profitable in it’s own right so don’t just give it out willy nilly. In this case, holding out proved that Kane can turn it liquid and get money outta it. He blackmails Makoto, saying he’ll go public with this info, with undeniable proof (maybe he had it on his phone to begin with), and ruin their lives. Sae would be disgraced, Makoto might even been looked over from getting into a good college or getting a good job. 

Now that her world has been rocked, this is probably when Makoto really starts questioning authority. The school staff, Sae, the police, everyone, all her doubts over the course of the arc start to come to a boil. She thinks about the PT. And here might be where I’d tweak how they are involved. See, Makoto got dirt on them, she was going to go to the principal, but the PT stop her. Instead THEY tell her “We’ll prove we’re just, please just wait.” She wonders how, and that’s when the MC reveals that they’ve heard rumors of a mafia boss hurting students in the area on the subway (which is true, in-game you hear this before Makoto mentions anything), you tell her mafia bosses are bad and that if they stop him that’d mean they were good right? Makoto isn’t.....completely convinced, but it won’t hurt her to hold out for a bit, not like she has anything to lose. This takes away the BS blackmail thing, and makes the PT more proactive. Flashforward to after meeting Kane. Makoto walks out of the building, the PT had just caught up to her, Makoto is fine but shaken up. She falls to the ground crying, saying how everything she knew was a lie, saying she can’t trust the adults. She says she doesn’t know if the PT are just or not, but she knows they take down those abusing their authority from how their past targets have been described. The PT tell her yes, she explains the situation. This leads to them realizing that Makoto is a “customer” of Kane and she can let them in (by the PT not being their like in the main game, we can’t say that they are also customers and thus don’t need Makoto btw). 

Everything else plays about roughly the same. Makoto awakens more to the fact of her rage at authority figures abusing their power. She doesn’t tell her sister of the knew knowledge she obtained, but she does see her sister in a different light (one that’s capable of lying, but also someone who was trying her best to protect her, is a mixed feeling). She feels more closer to Futaba too, knowing what it’s like to be lied to in a sense. Her CoOp also focuses more on her dream to become a Police commissioner, something she never forgot about and was actively striving towards, but now is questioning and seeing how she could handle it in a new light. 

Back to Sae, her sister’s dungeon has an additional somber taste to it. We see a woman who fought so hard to not be corrupt like her father, that she ended up going down a similar corrupt route. Her pure goal to not be like her father, almost turned her into him in a sense. Makoto is also fearful of this (possibly stemming from/explored in the CoOp).

Lastly, the dream world would make a lot more sense. Not only that he’s alive, but achieving such a high status/reward (I forget which). He’s not corrupt like he actually is! See he’s good? Everything is ideal! If we do have to wake our teammates up in P5R, it’s a lot more meaningful/understandable to have her go through the realization of what her father actually is, rather than just be like “yo he ded.” 

Last thing, I like this idea not cause it ties her into Kane being like “oh I killed your father” no in this case, Sae already prosecuted the guy who killed their father. There’s no revenge to be had here. Her father was just well known by the underground, possibly never even met Kane. But it does provide a way to connect her to Kane, using her as a pawn more naturally too. 

I dunno, I just feel like it makes more sense and it cleans up the story????? 

[sillyfudgemonkeys]

Persona Fandom Problems: Guide to legally buying Persona games so Atlus can see the money

So I guess I’ve heard this is a problem in the Persona fandom as a whole (aka both old and modern Persona fans) within the last few months (or at least I’ve seen complaints within the last few months)? So fans are demanding certain Persona *insert thing* but they don’t actually legally buy/support the thing when it comes out for....whatever reason. Is this really a thing? Like I don’t want to believe it (or at least believe it’s as rampant as it really is) but if that’s the case....well....now you know one of the reasons why I’m making this post. The other is that, more recently, I have seen people complain about how they can’t support these games so Atlus sees the money so they have to turn to emulation, which I’m not shaming you (you do you, I don’t know your situation), you can emulate but.....you can/have the ability to still buy these games in a way that Atlus (or I guess *insert game*) can still get the support. And fun fact, sometimes there are summer sales which can make the games go down in price even more, so yay you support the game and you save some money! So yeah not saying you HAVE to support them, but this is showing that you still have the ability to support them if you can......and tbh money speaks volumes for businesses so this is also to show how you can make your voice heard (aka if you want a P1/2 remake, you should probably buy the digital copies). (last note: inb4 someone says Atlus is financially alright now, yes that’s true but this is more for wanting your voice heard, not trying to keep Atlus from going under, financially they are fine but again.....you want remakes of a game you want? You probs should back it up by buying the game). 

Note if it’s bolded, it’s roughly how low the game has gone on sale on the PSN during an Atlus Summer day PSN sale(from what I can remember/find old archives of said sales) or other place if specified, otherwise the sale listed is the current price of the game digitally at the time of this posting. Also note this is mostly for the USA people (but I wouldn’t be surprised if the prices were translated to roughly the same amount outside the US), but since 90% of the stuff on this list is digital and Sony, and Play-Asia exists, it shouldn’t be that hard to make a USA account and get a USA PSN card off of Play-Asia (or other 3rd party website) so like it’s do-able outside the US....it’s a hassle but just an FYI that this post isn’t 100% alienating anyone outside the US. Anyway moving on. (Under the cut for the list)

If you have a PS3 only:

Persona 2: Eternal Punishment (PS1 classic, $3.99/9.99)

Persona 3 FES (PS2 classic, $5.99/9.99)

Persona 4 (PS2 classic, $5.99/9.99)

Persona 4: Arena (PS3, $14.99)

Persona 4: Ultimax (PS3, $19.99, or if you have PS+ during the month it was free, then it is free for you and you save about $20).

Persona 4: Arena Story mode (Ultimax DLC, $9.99, aka you get the story of Arena and Ultimax for $29.98 instead of $34.98) 

Persona 5 (PS3, $19.99)

(PS3′s can cost around $80, rough total cost off all games[P4U+Arena DLC story only, aka not including P4A’s game itself)): $65.94/79.94 +$80= $145.94/159.94

If you have a PSP and a PS3 (*see explanation below, PSP games below listed only):

Persona 1 (PSP, $/19.99)

Persona 2: Innocent Sin (PSP, $/19.99 )

Persona 3 Portable (PSP, $/19.99 )

Persona 2: Eternal Punishment (PS1 classic, $3.99/9.99)

(PSP’s can cost around $70+PS3′s $80..... All games together= $63.96/69.96+70+80= $213.96/219.96, a lot but on the bright side, you’d probs just need one P3 game and you’d have access to roughly most titles in Persona between the two consoles)

If you have a Vita or a VitaTV (and a PS4 or PS4 controller**):

Persona 1 (PSP, $/19.99)

Persona 2: Innocent Sin (PSP, $/19.99 )

Persona 3 Portable (PSP, $/19.99 )

Persona 2: Eternal Punishment (PS1 classic, $3.99/9.99)

Persona 4 Golden (Vita, $/19.99 )

Persona 4: Dancing All Night (Vita, $/24.99 )

Persona 3: Dancing in Moonlight (Vita, $39.99)

Persona 5: Dancing in Starlight (Vita, $39.99)

(Vitas are about $150 at gamestop, but you can maybe get them for under $100 online. Luckily the vita has access to almost all the Persona titles, and is probs one of the best consoles to invest in for Persona, of course the games will run up a decent penny until they either A) go down in price mainly P3/5D, or B) there’s a sale.....so what’s listed now might get cheaper later....also the fact you don’t need to buy all the games all at once. All the games+at max GameStop costs is...... $188.92/190.92+150=$338.92/340.92)

If you have a PS4

Persona 5 (PS4, $19.99)

Persona 4: Dancing All NIght (PS4, Bundle only it seems, $100 on PSN and has gone as low as $49.97 new at Gamestop, but for 3 games for about $50 that’s pretty good)

Persona 3: Dancing in Moonlight (PS4, $59.99, individually it has gone on sale new at Gamestop but I don’t know how low)

Persona 5: Dancing in Starlight (PS4, $59.99, individually it has gone on sale new at Gamestop but I don’t know how low)

Persona 5: The Royal (coming soon)

PS1 retro console:

Revelations: Persona (has other games too, $19.99/59.99, the $19.99 price is at Best Buy at the time of this posting/making of posting). [probably the cheapest way to pick up P1 if you don’t mind playing the half finished butchered version......tho unlike the digital sales, I don’t know if Atlus is seeing royalties on sales of these]

For 3DS:

Persona Q1 (3DS, Nintendo Shop has it for $19.99)

Persona Q2 (3DS, $29.99/39.99

(I think the cheapest system is a 2DS Original preowned at Gamestop for $59.99....tho again you might find it cheaper online, with the games that’d be $49.98/59.98+59.99=$109.97/119.97)

*The reason you need a PS3 with your PSP, it is because Sony shut down the PSN shop for the PSP, BUT you can still get games digitally for those games via downloading it through your PS3 into your PSP. (also fun fact, the PSP games dropped from like $30-40 to $20 which used to be it’s summer day sale price but who knows it could go down more if Atlus feels like it).

**PSVita TV needs a PS4 controller

***Only did prices of PS3, PSP, PSV, and 3DS cause I know they are older and some people might not know the cheaper prices

*****I only listed the prices of consoles for people who might not own them, not saying you HAVE to buy the consoles but it’s there so you have an idea of what you are looking at (also not listed for the PS3, a bunch of MegaTen games are available in the PS2 classic store too: DDS1, DDS2, Raidou 1, Raidou 2, and SMT3 for about the same prices as the PS2 P3/4 games. So it’s a great way to get into the other MegaTen games too along with the 3DS). 

****** “I want to buy these games digitally but I don’t want to buy the console right now” fun fact, you can make a PSN account online and just buy the games from your computer! And if you ever get a console for said game, you can always log in with that account and ta-da you have a game to play! Not saying you HAVE to do that either, but in case people were wondering if they could.....well now they know. 8U

[sillyfudgemonkeys]

Just a couple questions Atlus

Me: I get the whole Madarame door lock thing is to set up our understanding of changing stuff in the real world can reflect cognition, but why can’t they just jump through the gd window nothing (that we can see/that’s established) is stopping them from going around the hedges and going through the window? Me: And why do we need Makoto to get into Kane’s dungeon? Because we’re technically his “customers” after Makoto effs us. I know a special attention is placed on her, but he says we’re in debt to him too so shouldn’t that mean we could’ve gotten in without her? Me: Also why did we even need that whole thing couldn’t we just fly up there on our Personas? We obviously can ride them, we find out later, but considering they float and one/possibly multiple (ie these are Joker’s personas) of them has wings, you’d think they’d at least TRY it without giving up. Me: And with Futaba, why didn’t Wakaba stop? Why did we have to keep fighting it? Futaba knew her mother wasn’t evil so why did we have to keep fighting it? Game’s gotta boss fight is NOT a valid answer, you literally just broke one of the few consistent world building rules in your game! Me: And why the tf did Sae have such a stupid roadblock? “We need her to see us in the court room” BITCH THE COURTROOM IS OPEN TO THE PUBLIC TO SIT ON! Why is it blocked off? It’s not like it’s super special. Seems like we just need some arbitrary thing for Sae to see us, and to waste ANOTHER GD DAY ON BULLSHIT! Me: And why don’t we just ramp over (Makoto)/Fly over (everyone else, but esp Futaba) the area where Shadow Sae want’s 100,000 coins? Hell even before she does that we could’ve done it! Goro’s so “smart” but he can’t think of that? And yeah why doesn’t Shadow Sae just keep raising the damn coin thing until we have to do the smart thing and just physically get ourselves across the area???? Atlus: 

Me:

YOu sit back down and answer my questions!