#pro iw

[kitkatopinions]

I have this theory that rwby white knights and anti-rwdes are really into pushing the idea that Ironwood pre-shooting Oscar is some horrible clearly bad dictator with no good traits because they actually don't have any arguments against people saying his over-the-course-of-two-in-universe-days fall to villainy was rushed, unnecessary, and severely lacking in emotional depth. So the only way for them to try and make it not bad writing is to say that James was always a villain and therefore his villainy arc wasn't 'rushed' (though this ignores the fact that a villain with standards rapidly changing into a villain with zero standards with no real depth is still bad writing.)

But funnily enough, the whole thing with pushing the idea of 'Ironwood was always a bad guy, clearly a dictator, clearly everyone needs to have seen that or they're a pro-dictator bigot themselves' take... Really just makes both the team of RWBYJNROQ and the narrative that the RWBY writers painted seem worse if you ask me. Like, Team RWBY and co were actively and willingly working with IW for like two months, right? Like, they were down in the thick of it in Mantle sometimes, they saw the security camera that some people swear means that James kept the citizens of Mantle under constant surveillance, they saw the broadcasting of James and Winter that some people swear means that James was obviously feeding Mantle propaganda, they saw how he worked on a project that they actively believed in apparently instead of using the easily transferable resources of a communications tower to fix a broken wall. They saw James put things in place like curfews, which some people are swearing is proof of the ironclad hold Ironwood had on those poor defenseless citizens. They saw that he pulled his forces out of Mistral (on the advice of Winter,) which apparently is heartlessly hording protection, and they also saw him bring some of his forces into Vale which according to some people was a show of power. And despite the fact that there was every indication that IW was fully authorized to be in Vale and fully authorized in bringing over weapons, and despite the fact that he only brought them because he thought there would be an attack (which there was,) and despite the fact that he clearly didn't bring his whole fleet - No, he was invading Vale. And Team RWBY and co also saw his 'over-reliance on machinery' and his 'hatred of humanity' at play, and they saw him let teenagers do any fighting and saw that he was running a child recruitment school (ignore if this breaks the premise of the entire show by implying that Ruby shouldn't be allowed anywhere near a fight,) and they saw that he was supposedly grooming Winter. And they saw that he *gasp* was put in charge of security for an event after an attack that could've been really bad while Ironwood and the rest of Oz's inner circle was anticipating worse I MEAN he was completely unnecessarily put in charge of obviously completely unneeded security for your average everyday not in danger at all sporting event that can easily be compared to sporting events in our world where Salem and Grimm don't exist, and so that was clearly an act of aggression and exercising control.

So, if Ironwood is really a terrible dictator who has clearly been doing off the charts bad things that prove that he's a bad dictator since his very first appearances in volume two, then the options are A. Ruby and co are all so hopelessly naive that they completely ignored the clear and obvious signs of a dictator and then made shocked pikachu faces when he 'tried to leave all the poor people behind to die because of nothing but laziness, cowardice, and classism,' which makes them look really bad. B. Ruby and co are all so dumb that they just didn't realize that all the obviously bad stuff he did was obviously bad and should be a deal breaker because they're just that oblivious. Or C. Team RWBY and their friends can be slotted into the same category that the anti-rwdes put IW fans who say that the fall to villainy was rushed and that he wasn't always clearly bad, and written off as pro-dictator probably classist bigots. Ruby literally shared information on the war with him after a bunch of stuff in season seven because she and Oscar decided to trust him.

(Just to be clear, I don't believe any of that. I believe that Ironwood wasn't clearly super bad until he shot Oscar, and Team RWBY weren't in the wrong to work for and help Ironwood and believe in some of the things he was doing.)

But, using that 'James was always a dictator who was always clearly bad' logic, what does that say about the narrative RWBY the show was presenting us with. Because... Team RWBY and co weren't treated as in the wrong for working for and helping Ironwood and believing in some of the things he was doing. They doubted him a little, here and there, but for the most part just worked with him, and then nobody was like 'we were so stupid to trust him after everything he did' and nobody was like 'We need to be more careful because we were working with a dictator FUCK." In fact, Yang and Ren saying anything against Ruby was still treated as completely bad and something they needed to take back, even though she was the one who told the supposed clearly evil dictator important war secrets. Sooooo, if Ironwood really was a dictator, what was the 'Ruby did no wrong' stuff supposed to tell us as viewers? XD Like I honestly truly prefer thinking 'these writers just screwed up their fall to villainy arc pretty badly' rather than thinking 'these writers deliberately made the heroes willingly and happily work for an evil dictator for months and trust him with important war secrets.'

Once again I'm wondering how RWBY simps manage to make RWBY seem eight times worse than it is while they're trying to defend it.

[kitkatopinions]

Well we know the person who made those shitty takes saw all our reactions to it. They turned off the replies in the notes. Though I doubt they feel they're in the wrong for those takes since the post is still up, maybe they'll think a little harder about the internalized ableism they're currently dealing with.

Honestly, I doubt they're gonna re-think anything.

In my experience, most anti-rwde IW haters spewing ignorant bullshit when confronted with the fact that they're saying bigoted stuff just start whining about 'getting attacked by the mean htdm' who are 'misunderstanding their perfect rwby take' and saying it's because we're like.... Man obsessed or something.

I'd love to be proven wrong though, I blocked them after seeing their shitty 'Ironwood proved he was internally ableist when he sent Yang a free assistive device because that was somehow proving he only saw her as a soldier who needed to get back into the fight despite the fact that he did not do anything else to indicate that he wanted that until Yang showed up ready to fight and a-okay in volume 7 at least a year after the Fall of Beacon' take. But I heard that they also said way more and a lot of it was pretty bad.

IW haters have so much to actually hate on, I'll never understand why they can't just say 'I don't like Ironwood because he tried to bomb people' instead of making shit up and walking the line or often times crossing over the line into being absolute ableist pieces of shit jumping on the 'Ironwood's third prosthetic is a sign of his fall to villainy' and 'Ironwood is the bad disabled person because he (insert thing irl disabled people do or face here that isn't palatable to able-bodied bigots.') Like, literally, the ableism in this fandom gets too much to take sometimes.

Hint for all the IW haters out there, just stop trying to connect Ironwood's evil to him getting or having a prosthetic or helping another amputee or him having PTSD or ANY of that, point blank period. If you can't talk about Ironwood being evil without tying it back to his disabilities and trauma, that is a problem.

[kitkatopinions]

You realize that you're both ignoring Ironwood's glaring flaws and vilifying the protagonists for not obeying him, while vilifying the protagonists for working with him despite his flaws?

I'm not doing either of those things, you just don't listen. But thank you for at least attempting to refute what I said instead of just churning out the same thing. Let me explain to you how you're wrong.

I'm not vilifying the protagonists for working with Ironwood, because I don't believe they were wrong for working with Ironwood, because I think that he wasn't a clearly bad dictator until he shot Oscar (which started him being shot through a villain arc at the speed of light.) I believe that Ironwood was a flawed good guy who was doing some morally dicey things while stuck between a rock and a hard place, and Team RWBY and co were flawed good guys too who rightfully believed in some of the things Ironwood was doing (like trying to launch the communications tower.) I'm simply pointing out that the belief of many anti-rwdes that Ironwood was clearly a bad dictator throughout his appearances but especially in volume seven - if true - wouldn't make Team RWBY and co look good and would actually reflect very badly on them. I don't believe it to be the case that Team RWBY and co were actively working with a dictator for months. Therefore I'm not vilifying them for willingly working with a dictator for months because I don't believe that they were doing that. But the anti-rwde posters who are of the opinion that Ironwood was always a dictator and that it should've been obvious and anyone who doesn't believe that to be the case is either stupid or a bigot do believe that Team RWBY and co willingly worked with a dictator for months. They're the ones accidentally vilifying the mains, you're just getting angry at me for pointing it out. By their logic (and assumingly yours) Team RWBY and co (and the writers) all belong in the same category as me.

I also don't think that I've really vilified Team RWBY and co for going against Ironwood. either. I've been very clear about the fact that I think that the essentially trolley problem at the end of volume seven was one that had absolutely no 'right answer' or perfect solution, and Team RWBY's stance of 'we should risk it all in the hopes of saving everyone and leaving no one behind' - while a little idealistic - could've been written in a good and very hopeful way. I'm not sure it was a good choice of the writers and I think it could've been done a lot better, but I don't think Team RWBY were wrong to take the stance they did as characters. I feel like I've been clear about that. I don't start getting frustrated with Team RWBY and co until Volume Eight, and I don't think anyone comes out of that volume looking good, and I know I've been very clear about the fact that I think the writers are to blame and still love the characters of Ruby and Yang and stuff even if some of the things they do frustrate me at times.

I also don't think Ironwood is perfect. I've said that over and over. I'd love to know what 'glaring flaws' you think I'm ignoring, lol. Because all I've said recently as far as I know is that I don't think he was a dictator doing things like invading Vale and ruling Mantle as a dictator. If you believe he was, cool. But again, the main protagonists all worked with him and for him willingly for months. I don't think they were wrong to do that, buuuuut..... It kind of feels like you might. XD

[kitkatopinions]

I don't think the "ironwood was always a horrible evil dictator" crowd get that if he was then their beloved winter is literally complicit in being second in command to a cruel dictator in a fascist state but alas we all know oppressive systems are always only held up by Just One Guy, and if we just get rid of That Guy then everyone else will trust love 💕

Yep yep yep. For the sake of the argument, assuming that Ironwood was always a horrible evil dictator, Winter looks way worse than Team RWBY and co, especially because the line for what they couldn't take for them was - according to some anti-rwdes - 'abandoning thousands of poor people to die out of nothing but cowardice and classism' after they worked with him despite being a dictator crushing Mantle beneath his heel, but for Winter the line for what she couldn't take was Ironwood saying he wished he could've tortured children and threatening to bomb civilians or something, and not literally murdering anybody who said anything against him.

There are excuses for her that anti-rwde people sometimes make (that don't exist for Team RWBY and co) like 'she was groomed' and 'she was brainwashed.' But like, first of all, I think that's hard for me to believe because Winter was a very certain stubborn kickass woman who had created her own way out of an abusive situation and rose through the ranks on her own merit before the majority male writers were like 'actually what if she was a sad girl who had never done anything herself and had her actions puppeteered by a man,' and second of all... Because there's only so much excusing you can do if the thing you're trying to excuse is 'working for a dictator,' especially one that was clearly and obviously a dictator like some anti-rwdes think.

Again, I don't believe that Winter was working for a dictator until volume eight, and the whole villain arc was so rushed and badly done that I struggle to blame her as a character for it - what I actually blame her for isn't part of the conversation atm lol. But yeah, since I don't think Ironwood was a clear and obvious dictator or bad guy until shooting Oscar, I don't blame Winter for working with and for him. But for the sake of the argument, pretending that he was, there's only so much Winter can get away with under the excuse that she was brainwashed. Like, I think Kylo Ren was brainwashed too, but that doesn't mean that his actions are suddenly easily brushed aside and don't matter at all. I think Azula was brainwashed and controlled by her evil father, but that doesn't mean that she wasn't a villain who did terrible things who needed to be held at least partially accountable for her actions, and she's fourteen unlike the grown adult Winter. I think Emerald and Mercury were brainwashed and groomed by Cinder, probably, but I still think they're responsible for doing things like murdering people, and any redemption for them shouldn't be as easy as 'I'm a good guy now' 'oh really?' 'yeah,' 'cool we'll trust you and laugh alongside you and now you're part of the group and we can exchange fond looks.' Like...? So if Ironwood was really always a clear and obvious dictator, Winter is just... Completely forgiven easily? With no preamble? With no one treating her with suspicion? And while we're at it, the Ace Ops? Same category as Winter as far as I'm concerned. And Qrow and Team RWBYJNOR and Ozpin and even Pyrrha and Glynda who worked with Ironwood in the third season while he was 'strongarming Vale' and 'betrayed Ozpin' and took over as head of security for an event which was 'definitely a sure sign of him being a bad dictator' ...all of them at least fucked up and did bad for working with and having no real problem with a dictator from season two to the eleventh hour of volume seven.

It's like you said, if Ironwood really was a dictator in a fascist state, then the message the show seems to be sending is 'there is only one bad guy in charge who must be taken out, everyone else is fine.' It'd be like if Snoke had died in Star Wars the Last Jedi and then everyone in the Empire was just like "Well we're all friends and we're all good and we're all fine now that Snoke is dead,' and former high ranking First Order officers and the Knights of Ren were invited into the resistance happily with nobody really questioning their morals or trying to hold them accountable. Except it'd be like that plus if Rey, Finn, Poe, and Rose had all actually been working for the First Order for two months and only started having problems when Snoke was like 'maybe let's destroy a planet,' and then they were like 'well we've done nothing wrong, we don't have to examine our own morals either.'

Again, I don't believe any of these people were willingly and happily working with and for a dictator for two months (or in Winter's case, years,) but the logic of some anti-rwdes just doesn't make anyone they like actually look good and it feels like they just ignore that because they want to have their cake (Ironwood was always a clearly bad dictator) and eat it too (the characters they like didn't do anything wrong.)

[kitkatopinions]

Another option for RWBY working with Ironwood and sharing important information with him: They're not actually bothered by working with a dictator until that dictator is no longer on their side. Which would make them pretty vile, tbh. So it would reflect better on RWBY and co if he wasn't a dictator until the end of V7.

Exactly. Like, I've been paying attention to things like Miles Luna saying they'd originally written Ironwood to be a bit of a dick but then 'discovered he had a heart' and the writers saying that he was a 'fallen hero' and had paved the road to hell with 'good intentions' and that the ethical dilemma at the end of volume seven (rescue Atlas, the already evacuated Mantle citizens, and the Relics Salem wanted at the cost of leaving behind the remaining Mantle citizens or trap Atlas, the already evacuated Mantle citizens, and the Relics Salem wanted at the risk of losing everything on the off chance they might be able to save more people) was meant to be one with no clear answer and no clear right and wrong. The 'Ironwood was always an evil bad dictator' people should logically see that sort of thing and actively think the writers are incompetent or liars, or that they're so opposed with 'Alpha Males' that they didn't even realize they were writing a dictator, or... They're pro-dictator. Either way, it would - using their logic - reflect badly on the writers and would inevitably also make the group of heroes look really really bad in universe.

Like, the way that I see it is that the writers made Ironwood with the vague concept of maybe potentially being a bad guy later on, but using their flying by the seat their pants writing style decided that Ironwood worked better as a good guy during the Beacon arc and tbh also the Mistral arc, and then continuing with their fly by the seat of their pants writing style, decided to try to do a morally complicated plot with the whole volume seven, and then decided they wanted villain Ironwood and started making him a 'villain with a point' who was against Salem but also way too 'ends justify the means' and also needed to be stopped. And although I don't really like fallen hero arcs as a general rule, the concept itself isn't a bad one and I just think it was really poorly executed. But the way this angle of the 'Ironwood was written as a flawed good guy who did morally gray things with his back to the wall and then was suddenly written to be villainous evil for the sake of it scum' thing reflects on the characters in universe... Isn't super bad actually. Sure I think Ruby and co could've made some better choices and some of the way the writers decided to characterize them is annoying and again, badly done. But 'they were working for a good guy despite the fact that they didn't always agree with him on everything and he wasn't always perfect, they had a pretty big ideological difference of opinion that drove them apart, and then Ironwood started going absolutely off the rails bad seemingly out of nowhere, making Team RWBY and co have to take him out'... While I still think it was badly done, that reflects so much better on Team RWBY and co than the 'they were willingly and happily working for a dictator for months and the only explanation for it is incompetence or them actually not minding dictators' that comes with the 'Ironwood was always a bad evil dictator' angle.

Like, seriously, what is the angle that the anti-rwde posters think they're taking when they say that the only people who don't think Ironwood was a bad evil dictator are either stupid, pro-dictator, or misogynists who love alpha men, when TEAM RWBY AND CO didn't think he was a dictator, and the writers talk about him as a fallen hero with good intentions? If Ironwood really was a dictator, than Miles Luna and the other writers and Ruby Rose and the other heroes are in the exact same slot that I am.

[kitkatopinions]

Nitpick Number Twenty Seven for Nitpick November:

I love that RWBY has a new opening theme song and sequence every season, but a lot of what they choose to put in their opening sequences often bugs the life out of me. This is a long one, so I'm gonna put it under a read more.

Volume One opening title sequence:

You see references to the Red, White, Black, and Yellow trailers. Cool, I guess. Then you see a bunch of Grimm, and Roman Torchwick with the goons he got from Junior, which makes sense considering that those were the early enemies. But then you see this.

I'm not mad about 'Cinder in the shadows' because Cinder had at least one real appearance in volume one. But that's... Emerald and Mercury, in the back? As completely in shadow blank people and Emerald looks like she had completely different hair back then? The only appearance they had in volume one was as cardboard cutouts floating behind Cinder for three seconds right at the end. Why are they even sort of in the opening theme song? Especially considering that Sun and Penny don't make any appearance in the opening sequence for volume one despite being in multiple episodes.

Also, for such a dynamic show with a lot of fight choreography as one of the main appeals (in these early seasons that is,) this opening sequence is a lot of 'people standing around looking serious' and not a lot of movement.

Volume Two opening sequence:

This one is much more fast paced with some nice visuals (the clock gears and then Oz is just everything,) and it also happens to have my favorite of all the theme songs. But just-

Tell me why they felt the need to put Junior and those two twins Little Miss Malachite's daughters in this shot at all? Junior barely does anything, he isn't an 'enemy' in season two so much as he's kind of an informant Yang goes to, which I don't like. And the twins only exist for two seconds so Neptune can flirt with them! Why are they in the theme song when again Sun and Penny don't exist in it at all?

They have Pyrrha fighting Team CRDL, which... Okay? I guess they made that part of the opening sequence because the only other important thing anyone in Team JNPR did that season was dance to Shine, but I find it weird. And then they show Team RWBY fighting various people and instead of featuring Yang fighting Neo and Weiss fighting that one guy with the chainsaw, they have Yang fighting Mercury which she won't do until volume three, and Weiss fighting Emerald, which she won't do except maybe technically kind of when they both exist in the same place in volume five even though Weiss mostly fights Vernal. With Yang and Merc I can at least dismiss it as weird forshadowing, but why is Weiss fighting Emerald? Ruby at least encounters and wants to fight Cinder in volume two despite not knowing it's her, and Blake fights Torchwick, so that's fine. But the Weiss vs Emerald thing is really what gets me. Why?

Volume Three opening sequence!

We flash through a few different teams, and who do we see? Team RWBY and Team JNPR, all very important people, aaaand Team SSSN for some reason, and then Cinder, Emerald, and Mercury. Why the flip do we see Team SSSN? I'm gonna acknowledge that for the first time they showed Sun in an opening sequence (still no Penny though :( bummer) but like... They couldn't have done something that didn't include barely-characters Sage and Scarlet? Tbh it would've made more sense to show Team CVFY and then just include Sun and Neptune later. This is especially true because Sage and Scarlet are at the center instead of Sun and Neptune being at the center. (The 'Mirrors will shatter' part is always cool though.)

We see Ruby fighting Cinder (why not Roman?) Yang fighting Mercury, Blake fighting Adam, and... Again, Weiss fighting Emerald. Hmm. They have Winter with Weiss, and Qrow with Ruby and Yang, and then the two having a staredown before the old Team STRQ picture goes by, which is fine or whatever I guess, but I think I would've preferred something else, like seeing Qrow with the inner circle. Also, no Roman at all (which is really weird, since he was currently one of the main villains,) no Neo, and still no Penny. And despite her larger role in volume three, Pyrrha's screentime in the opening sequence was barely more than the screentime for Sage and Scarlet. Riddle me that.

Volume Four opening sequence:

We're reverting back to mostly having a bunch of people shown standing around and making facial expressions. To be fair, this was a volume where there wasn't a lot of big stuff going on, which I do not hate (if it was done better.) It's weird that they showed Blake fighting Adam when she was really fighting Ilia, though, but I'm willing to dismiss that as them wanting to get across how she's haunted by him or something. But I just personally find that opening sequence really boring. Idk what else to say about it. I like the song though.

Volume Five opening sequence:

Same as before except somehow even more boring. Why are these openings mostly just people standing there? Also when you see Raven she has this soft grin on her face and I'm like... Yeah, sorry, she was a smug jerk the whole time, why is she smiling in her opening credits moment? Weird.

Volume Six opening sequence:

Believe it or not, I like the sound of this song (especially the start of it,) but I'm not sure it was the right song for an opening sequence (and some of the lines are just blah annoying.) Also, more people standing around right at the start with JNOR and Qrow. And then there's this?

They're like, playing tag or something while Blake and Yang are sitting together all moodily? It's just like... I'm not sure. It's weird. Am I the only one that feels like if Ruby was playing tag on the train with anyone, it should be Yang who is shown to still have goofy antics with Ruby in this season, or Nora, who is very silly and rambunctious as a rule? Weiss didn't go through as obvious of a character change in this season as Blake did, but I think people stopped writing for Weiss and started writing for 'Ruby's best friend,' and it shows in little moments like this.

Also with Cinder's moments, they tried to be like "Who is this under the hoooood? We don't knoooow!" And then at the same time tried to be like "Ooooh, is Torchwick baaack? Look at his haaaat!" And it's like, just show us Cinder and Neo. Especially because neither of these things was set up as suspenseful in the show. There was no shadowy figure that people speculated on for episodes, it was just Cinder in clothes we watched her murder a person for. Gonna be honest, it was somehow better than the fourth volume opening sequence, but still.

Volume Seven Sequence opening:

I've already talked about hating the Trust Love song, but yeah, it's really not my favorite. It might be my least favorite. Also! Having them turn from their volumes 1-3 looks, into their volumes 4-6 looks, and into their volume 7-8 looks... Really just showcased how bad some of them looked. Also it's funny that they show Ironwood while they say 'your life's a masterpiece.' Like?? Weird placement for the character you hate. Also also, this?

Always makes me laugh. It's so... Disney channel spy cartoon. Like, it feels straight out of some kind of Kim Possible movie. Why did they choose this? And again, a lot of characters just stand there and make facial expressions. I can't tell you how annoying I find that.

Also, again with weird framing around Ironwood, when a Mantle citizen throws something at the image of James and it flickers into Jacques... Almost like they were signifying how Jacques was trying to make James a scapegoat despite the fact that he was the one hurting Mantle... Huh.

Also, they act like Weiss's main color is blue and Blake's main color is purple. It's so annoying that they can't even stick to one rule in this dang show, like 'the main four have a main color they're represented by.'

Last complaint for this theme song sequence, but why is Qrow so far from the group in the last shot?

If this season had featured Qrow kind of isolating himself from the rest of the group, then this would make sense to me. Instead, they had Team RWBY and co supposedly cool with him now that he started letting them do what they want without protest, had him and Ruby have a heart to heart about Summer, had him hug Ironwood, and launched him into a rapid friendship-possible partnership that consumed most of his screen time this season. So I don't get this choice of framing him as apart from the others.

Volume Eight opening sequence:

So! I'll start out by saying that just like with the volume six song, it's not that I hate this one, it's just that I'm not sure it was a good choice for an opening theme. Also, it's kind of just bad that they put the line 'we said goodbye to all the things we loved' right over shots of the RWBY girls now compared to who they were back in volumes 1-3. Aaaand I wish they'd stop being like 'look, look, do you guys remember back then? We're still just like that!' It's giving ''Steven Moffat keeps bringing in things from the Russel T Davies era to Doctor Who seasons five through seven and misusing them." It's giving "Disney keeps referencing Frozen long after the movie came out." It's giving "They brought in the kid of Will and Elizabeth to Pirates of the Caribbean 5 to try to trick people into thinking it's good."

ALSO: When they're doing that sequence, I get real annoyed at the way they animated Yang.

Some of them are kind of off considering the way the characters behave in volume 8, but Yang's is just bad. Ruby has this cute daring smirk, Weiss is making this serious concentrating face, Blake looks angry and intense, and then Yang - who spends most of her time in volume eight being angry and picking fights with people or being sad as she thinks temporarily leaving on a mission once is going to make Blake think worse of her... Has this like, floaty happy little soft smile and is the only one of the four not portrayed in an action shot? If Isabella from Phineas and Ferb was a RWBY character, this is the kind of pose and face she'd make while staring lovestruck at Phineas. Why is this what they went with?

Again, there's weird framing with James, as they play the line 'gave up our lives' while showing him, like they were acknowledging the sacrifices he made while they speed-run a badly done villain arc. Also 'hope has no place here' while they show Salem set playing chess with the black pieces that all turn into Grimm against James who has all his white pieces dissolve into dust, like they were... Saying he's the only person actually trying to stop her... while the others all left to do other things... In the same season they turn him into an evil bastard. The rest of it is just kind of boring

So yeah, those are my criticisms of the choices for the main sequences of RWBY volumes 1-8. I still consider all of these Nitpicks, because I've enjoyed plenty of shows without liking every choice they make for their opening sequences, but yeah.

[kitkatopinions]

The 'James was always bad and you can tell because he doesn't trust or listen to others' argument is always just... So weird to me. XD Because James does display trust and listen to others.

When James fans point out that he openly accepts the council of others like Glynda and the Ace Ops, they say “he only trusts the people he keeps close to him.” And then when we point out that James shows open trust to Team RWBYJNOR when they first arrive, they say “he only trusts until he's given the slightest reason to distrust or there’s a disagreement or people challenge him, then he won't listen to anyone.” And James fans could point out that he literally trusts Team RWBYJNOR despite them stealing a plane unnecessarily, and works with Robyn willingly even after she started stealing needed supplies, and forgives Ruby for lying to him, and trusts Qrow to tell him to lead his men in V3 even after they’ve been arguing pretty severely and right after it seemed like Qrow was literally trying to kill him. But the response to that is usually “HE'S ONLY EVER NICE TO PEOPLE TO MANIPULATE THEM, SO IT WASN’T SHOWING REAL TRUST, YOU IDIOT!” Which is always fun.

So it’s not that he never displays trust or listens to others, it’s that people don’t want to believe he’s sincere. That’s fair and I honestly don’t care. So long as hate against Ironwood is tagged as 'anti ironwood,' I couldn't care less. People are well within their rights to headcanon what they want to make RWBY more enjoyable for them personally. My problem is that a lot of people get mad at IW fans for not subscribing to the ‘right’ headcanon that lines up with the ‘villain James’ that we believe is severely out of character.

But also the ‘trust and love and friendship will see us through’ theme is so badly done. And Ironwood is supposed to be the horrible anti-friend, anti-trust person who contrasts Team RWBYJNOR (And more specifically Ruby’s) pro-friends, pro trust beliefs. The main protagonist team wins because they trust, they’re good because they love their friends, we should root for them because they give second chances and listen to others! Except that the writers did a terrible job, because their ‘trust’ and ‘second chances’ and ‘listening to others’ isn’t consistent at all. We’re meant to ignore the fact that they drew their weapons on Qrow for stepping forward and saying hey and told him to fall in line or get lost when he didn’t like their completely unnecessary ‘steal a plane’ plan in Argus, because also they think the Ace Ops should be friends. We’re meant to ignore the fact that every single person in RWBYJNOR was willing to consider Whitley a snotty unwanted nuisance and no one had a problem with Weiss pointing her loaded weapon in his face, because once Whitley starts doing what they want, Weiss gives him a hug. We’re meant to ignore the fact that Ruby lied to Ironwood literally because she was suspicious of him despite him having reasons she believed in for the things that he did, because also Yang and Blake randomly told a hot tempered vigilante stealing from the project they believed in all or their plans. We’re meant to ignore the fact that they act like doubting Ruby is some horrible, scandalous thing and that they act like Ren not always telling Nora everything and not just being her boyfriend when she wants him to and then doubting that they’re doing much good makes him a horrible friend and a bad partner, because the group laughs along with someone who was trying to help murder Penny yesterday because now she says that they’ve improved and are actually good and right and that they grew. The protagonists don’t always act with trust anymore. Sometimes they just randomly pick the people that it’s arguably unwise to trust and share everything with them. But then they’ll act like the slightest protest to Ruby’s desires is morally wrong, or only tolerate some people when they’re doing everything they want, or they play mean spirited pranks on people who are soldiers or Whitley just because they don’t immediately like them. Or they suggest someone is being like already evil Ironwood if they so much as say “maybe we should decide to do something that would help people” when Ruby doesn’t want to commit. And they’ll decide someone is probably evil actually if that person explains everything they’re doing in detail and has a plan that the heroes one hundred percent like and back up but also they look tired. But then they’ll be like “Yeeeeah Winter did suggest martial law, which is a concept we’ve acted like has horrified us, and she did work with Ironwood willingly, the person we’ve literally warned the entire world couldn’t be trusted because we distrusted him and thought he was evil that much, and we have no reason besides her sometimes cold displays of affection towards Weiss to believe that she’s randomly turned her back on everything she believed yesterday and honestly every ‘indication of evil’ that we seemed wary of with Ironwood is something Winter has displayed just as much if not more than he did in season seven, but we really want her to be nice, so of course we trust Winter! We love trust! We always give second chances and listen to others!” You know what the protagonist team’s morals are now?

The writers just have things work out for Team Protagonists and their random as heck granting of trust and goodwill or doling out distrust and a complete lack of care and compassion because they’re the protagonists. It’s like Ruby has a script that lets her see who’s definitely going to turn evil and who’s going to be good, or she hears the same plucky or heroic music when some people talk and the same ‘trouble a’brewing’ and foreboding music when others talk that we as the audience do. Just like her choices don’t always make even a lick of sense, and somehow work out because protagonist magic and author-admitted letting her cheat the rules because they wrote themselves into a corner. Ruby and co don’t always trust, aren’t always nice, don’t always give second or even first chances, don’t always want to be friends, don’t always try to bridge a gap, definitely don’t always listen to others, and they oftentimes act like everyone should have to do what they say and that doubting Ruby is akin to declaring war or at the very least being a terrible friend. But if Ironwood so much as says ‘maybe Ozpin is wrong about some things even though we’re on the same side and are friends, and I shouldn’t just blindly do everything he tells me,’ that’s treated as proof of evil.

In short, the RWBY writers are not good and convincing writers anymore and despite the fact that they’re clearly trying to say there’s a theme of ‘Trust, friendship, and togetherness’ in this show, they just aren’t putting in the work of carrying that out in a consistent, well written, and thoughtful way. So I wish people would stop saying James was clearly always a bad guy ‘because he didn’t trust or listen to others.’ Trust doesn’t actually mean as much as the season seven theme song would have us believe in this show, and even if it did, James was one of the most trusting people in the whole show until the writers randomly made him evil at the speed of light.

[kitkatopinions]

So, since I’m a firm Ironqrow shipper and would love Qrow and James as friends even if I didn’t love them as a romantic ship, it’s always a bit frustrating for me when I see people say that it makes sense to them that they wound up hating and wanting to kill each other by the end of volume seven, which started like this:

And their reasoning is usually something like “They didn’t seem that close to me, it didn’t feel like Qrow actually cared about Ironwood at all, they were at each others throats in one of their first appearances, Ironwood said if Qrow was one of his men he’d shoot him :/” And it really seems to me like they blacked out for not only how Ironwood and Qrow were in the Fall of Beacon, but also anything after that until the Qrow/Robyn/Tyrian/Clover fight.

So let’s talk about why I think the show portrayed them as friends. As always, this is how I saw things, and I do recognize that my interpretation of things isn’t the only acceptable reading, as I am biased towards both these men and towards their relationship, but this is just kind of a ‘hey, this is why people think that whole ‘wanting to kill each other’ thing felt really OOC,’ explanation.

Pro IW content behind the keep reading, obviously, so if you’re one of those people who can’t stand to see any positive take or any fondness towards this character, this post isn’t for you and please leave it be. :)

So, let’s start prior to the Fall of Beacon. I won’t delve into it too much, but I really, really just want to reiterate that tension and arguing does not a hatred make, especially when both of their big complaints seems to be ‘why didn’t you call me?’ Both of them said horrible, rude things that would likely upset the other. But by the end of their conversation, both of them are more calmed down when Ironwood listens to Ozpin - and btw, that conversation really feels like the biggest thing Qrow was angry about was just that Ironwood wasn’t following Oz unquestioningly, which makes perfect sense for his character, but isn’t exactly logical.

Also, in their first scene together, it’s much more casual.

The energy in this single moment, I’ll tell you. The Ironqrow stuff comes through in the little moments.

But anyway, we’ve established in these early scenes that they are arguing and seem to have butted heads before. They both work towards a common goal and are part of the same group, but Qrow is angry at Ironwood specifically for going against Ozpin’s orders and bringing his fleet to Vale (although we as an audience don’t see the ‘fear’ that Ozpin and therefore his - at the time - loyal followers Glynda and Qrow believe everyone will have regarding bringing part of the Atlas military to Vale,)

Then we get the scene during the Fall of Beacon. Ironwood takes down a bunch of the hacked Atlas tech, and Qrow looks angry and pulls out his weapon, leading Ironwood to think Qrow is getting ready to attack him. However, after the first watch through, we know that Qrow isn’t mad at James, so his openly angry expression is likely directed at the Grimm that was about to attack James. This suggests that Qrow is protective of Ironwood.

Ironwood immediately tries to convince him in a desperate tone that he isn’t responsible for the Fall, but when Qrow keeps coming at him, which Ironwood clearly thinks is an attempt to go all out against him him, Ironwood turns his gun around, clearly indicating that he has no intensions of going all out against Qrow himself and doesn’t want to hurt him. Of course, some people read this scene as cowardice? Because apparently not wanting to hurt an ally when that ally thinks you’ve betrayed them while a Kingdom is getting attacked is cowardice, wonder why people might want to think that after the events of volume seven. Huh. But anyway, moving on.

“You idiot,” Qrow says. “I know you didn’t do this.” James gives a deep sigh with a relieved look and Glynda puts a hand on his shoulder. “So what now, General?”

People like to forget this moment, I think. Qrow calls James an idiot for even thinking that Qrow might blame him for something like this. Qrow calls James an idiot for not knowing that Qrow explicitly trusts him. Ironwood is relieved, he gets comfort from Glynda, and then Qrow explicitly asks for direction and leadership. The fact that Atlas drones started fighting them was a shock to Glynda and Qrow, but they never for a moment suspected that James was at fault for it, and instead look to him as a secondary leader when Ozpin isn’t present. Also, Qrow doesn’t say ‘we know you didn’t do this,’ he says ‘I know you didn’t do this,’ and that’s a very very small thing, but it’s still just another small indicator that Qrow isn’t speaking for ‘Oz’s inner circle,’ he’s telling James what he thinks, personally. And btw, Ironwood gives Qrow direction to lead his men? I mean, I just love that concept.

Ironwood says he needs to get to his ship, they see it crashing, and Qrow says it won’t be much of a walk, now sounding fond, more casual, and literally smiling.

It’s so hard during this scene not to see them as friends (or more.) All tension has been tabled and Qrow seems happy and relieved to have James there with them. Despite the horrible situation, James being there has made Qrow go from looking stressed and angry to smiling and quipping. Also just look at that fondness and warmth?

And that’s the last we see of their interactions together until volume seven, but we do get some moments like Qrow literally calling them friends to Cordovin and - more importantly imo - Qrow’s letter to James. Qrow’s letter, that says that he’s gonna tell Ironwood the full story and is coming to Atlas. And this is another Ironqrow sidenote, but the way he says ‘James’ always is like... Chef’s kiss.

And then even when they were already clearly trying to frame James’ actions in volume 7 as all unnecessary or suspicious, Qrow at least seemed to be sad when contemplating James. Ruby says James looks tired and Qrow looks sad and says “James, what have you been doing?” in a low tone like he forgot the kids were there. Pietro is talking about Ironwood and Qrow says he seems scared and slumps his shoulders and looks down (and also screw Pietro for dismissing James’ very valid fears that all wind up coming true as just paranoia, thus twisting James’ valid display of emotions into something we’re supposed to see as irrational and scary and screw the writers for making Pietro do that.) He listened to Ironwood’s plan and seemed on board as soon as Ironwood explained why his whole army was back and what he was doing. And then of course you get the infamous hug. A literal, long lasting hug, where Qrow gives a very fond eye-roll and smile combo.

So yeah, it really felt like all of that combined was pretty clearly telling us as an audience that these two cared about each other and were friends. Qrow trusted him explicitly, Qrow sent him a letter promising that he’d explain things in Atlas, Qrow melted into a long lasting hug with him, and there were several small moments in between that easily read as friendship. So when Qrow just assumed that Ironwood was one hundred percent at fault for everything without even wondering if there was another explanation, that felt out of character. And when he decided to kill Ironwood and needed to be talked down over it by Robyn, that felt out of character. When he didn’t even try to talk to Ironwood and help him, it felt out of character. It’s pretty clear to me that the writers just decided to make Qrow hate James and unquestioningly accept him as an evil heartless wretch because they wanted all of us in the audience to hate James and unquestioningly accept him as an evil heartless wretch. But I think it’s really dumb and I think it’s out of character. And I would much rather ignore it in favor of alternate universes and fix its and ship fics.