#robert fagles

[22ndiliad]

you’re my man of war

[soundbuster]

Iliad Epithets Ramble

Something I really like about Robert Fagles' translation is how he handles divine epithets.

I don't know if other translations have done the same, but there's a weight in them that makes the gods feel different.

One of Artemis's epithets is Potnia Theron—meaning "Mistress of Animals"—and Fagles translates it to:

But his sister, Artemis, Huntress, queen of beasts, inveighed against him now with stinging insults... - The Iliad Book 21, Line 435-436

Here, she's not just a huntress or mistress. She's the queen of the beasts, and the wild bows to her as the top predator there.

Then there's Athena's spoil-gatherer epithet:

"'Leap to it then. Launch Athena against him-the queen of plunder, she's the one—his match, a marvel at bringing Ares down in pain.'" - The Iliad Book 5, Line 879-881

I will give you gifts if Athena, Zeus’s daughter, Queen of Armies comes to my rescue, grants this fighter life and brings my son to manhood!” - The Odyssey Book 13, Line 408-411

And here Athena is the queen of armies and plunder, pushing her control beyond strategy but dominance, victory, and its aftermath—the kind of control over war that Ares doesn't fully command.

The titles hit harder like this.

Not ornamental, but as claims to power.

Artemis and Athena get to be sovereigns in their own right.

[nuttythenut]

Iliad book names…

No because the Iliad book names are sometimes so ridiculous that when I think about them too much I never fail to laugh. Most are aptly named, but you can literally tell when they started giving up

What do you mean Book 10 is mysterious and called "Marauding through the Night" and then Book 16 is straight up "Patroclus fights and Dies"???

Like, that's it. No fancy name, no fancy vocab.

Book 10 is enigmatic and shit, whereas Book 16 just says exactly what happens. Spoiler alert! Basically, he fights and dies. The end.

[lesbodysseus]

what is the longest thing you have memorized?

Briseis' speech for Patroclus Iliad book 19 Robert Fagles' translation

Here is my recitation THOUGH KEEP IN MIND IT'S BEEN A WHILE SINCE I READ IT SO I MAY BE A LITTLE RUSTY AND MAKE MISTAKES

Patroclus dearest joy of my heart my harrowed broken heart I left you alive the day that I left these shelters now I come back to find you fallen captain of armies so grief gives way to grief my life one endless sorrow the husband to whom my noble mother and father gave me I saw him cut down by the bronze before our city and my three brothers one mother bore us my brothers how I loved you you all went down to death on the same day but you patroclus you would not let me weep not even weep you vowed you would make me Achilles' lawful wedded wife you would sail me in your warships west to phthia and with the myrmidons hold my wedding feast so now I mourn your death and I will never stop you were always kind

Rate how well I did 🥹🥹

[pastellus]

Treated myself to the Fagles Penguin Classics box set since they were on sale. Working towards owning physical copies of all Iliad and Aeneid translations I like...

[dreaming-mushroom]

The Odyssey: Bed Scene Translation Comparison

Emily Wilson wrote a substack on her process translating the famous bed scene in Book 23, where Penelope tests Odysseus to prove his identity, intending to upset him with knowledge only he would know. She says the bed he carved from a tree trunk had been moved, implying that another man could move it, and therefore “move” the marriage.

I was curious, so I compared this scene across several more translations, including my own notes on the translations discussed in Wilson's post.

First, I made the most literal translation I could with a Greek word study tool and syntactic context (apologies to people who actually know the language, please feel free to correct me):

She raised this to her husband trying to get proof: but Odysseus

Was sorely angered, and called his diligent, skillful-minded wife:

“O! woman, surely what you said has deeply grieved my heart:

Who has moved/could ever move my bed?”

The core notes of this scene are:

Penelope is clearly testing Odysseus

Odysseus is angry and feels hurt

Penelope is referred to with virtuous qualities, praising her intelligence and her careful/trusty/diligent/loyal nature, depending on how you choose to translate a word

Penelope is referred to in the narration first as “wife" (alochos), but in dialogue Odysseus calls her “woman" (gunai). As Wilson notes, “The use of these two words emphasizes the central question of the scene: whether Penelope is permanently Odysseus' wife, or not (and what it means for her to be his wife, rather than just a woman that he used to know).”

Odysseus calls the bed “my” bed, taking ownership of it with a singular possessive pronoun rather than "our" bed.

Keeping these details in mind, let's look at a selection of translations!

(NOTE: * denotes translations included in Emily Wilson's original substack)

George Chapman (1615):

This said she to assay him, and did stir

Ev’n his establish’d patience; and to her

Whom thus he answer’d: “Woman! your words prove

My patience strangely. Who is it can move

My bed out of his place?

This is the first English translation of The Odyssey, and one that takes several liberties. The use of “assay” is an interesting word choice to describe Penelope’s testing of her husband, and mentioning his patience twice downplays his anger, making it seem that he’s just a bit upset and impatient, but not angered and hurt as the original text implies. This translation also leaves out mention of Penelope’s virtuous traits. I do like the flow of it linguistically, though.

John Ogilby (1665):

Thus said the Queen, her dearest Lord to trie.

But He offended, made this rough Reply;

Strangely you talk, your Order's something od,

Who can remove that Bed, unless some God?

This translation seems to focus mostly on rhyme, which necessitates the warping of some words to keep consistency. Much of the wording feels clunky and archaic to the modern reader (me), and the meter is inconsistent, so it isn't very smooth to read. However, the use of “dearest lord” conveys her loyalty towards Odysseus, and “rough reply” conveys an interesting tone of anger, though his words sound purely questioning and lacking hurt.

Thomas Hobbes (1675):

Thus said she, but to try if that were he,

Yet griev’d him to the heart, and made him doubt.

Woman, said he, who has remov’d my bed?

It cannot be but by a force divine.

This one is a fairly straightforward translation, though Oddysseus' anger is dampened, and it is lacking mention of Penelope as his wife or her virtues. I like the way the meter flows.

Alexander Pope (1725):

Thus speaks the queen, still dubious, with disguise

Touch’d at her words, the king with warmth replies

“Alas for this! what mortal strength can move

The enormous burden, who but Heaven above?

Like Ogilby, Pope is trying to make things rhyme, and this one deviates quite far from the original text. Rather than Odysseus being angry and hurt, he’s instead touched by his wife’s test, and responds with warmth. This completely changes the context of the scene, even though later Pope keeps Penelope’s line “be not angry.”

William Cowper (1791):

So spake she, proving him, and not untouch’d

With anger at that word, thus he replied.

Penelope, that order grates my ear.

Who hath displaced my bed?

This one includes Odysseus' anger, though "grates my ear" carries a different connotation than a grieved heart. This translation also lacks Penelope's virtues and does not refer to her as wife OR woman, just by name.

*Richard Lattimore (1967):

So she spoke to her husband, trying him out, but Odysseus

spoke in anger to his virtuous­ minded lady:

"What you have said, dear lady, has hurt my heart deeply.

What man has put my bed in another place?..."

The double use of “lady” lacks the differentiation between “woman” and “wife” that changes some of the underlying meaning of the scene. He also adds “DEAR lady,” an endearment that is not present in the original and softens his anger somewhat.

*Robert Fitzgerald (1961):

With this she tried him to the breaking point,

and he turned on her now in a flash raging:

"Woman, by heaven you've stung me now!

Who dared to move my bed?"

The use of “to the breaking point” and “turned on her in a flash raging” add metaphors not present in the Greek, which feels more dramatic and makes Odysseus’ anger more eruptive. This translation lacks the acknowledgement of Penelope’s virtuous qualities, focusing on how her testing makes Odysseus react. The inclusion of “by heaven” feels anachronistic, though one could argue it’s a suitable translation of the exclamative word it stands in for.

*Robert Fagles (1996):

Putting her husband to the proof -- but Odysseus

blazed up in fury, lashing out at his loyal wife:

"Woman -- your words, they cut me to the core!

Who could move my bed?"

Wilson criticizes this translation pretty scathingly, but personally, I like it. While it uses dramatic metaphors of “blazed up” and “lashing out” like Fitzgerald, it feels more fitting for the emotional context, and does not put the onus of Odysseus’ anger solely on Penelope. I also like the use of “who could move my bed”; Wilson criticizes this, saying, “This Odysseus apparently thinks it's really impossible to move the bed.” But I feel that with his self-confidence and the way he describes how he made the bed, that is an apt interpretation of character, as well as a suitably accurate translation as far as my untrained eye understands it.

*Stanley Lombardo (2000):

She was testing her husband. Odysseus

could bear no more and he cried out to his wife:

"By God, woman, now you've cut deep.

Who moved my bed?"

This translation notably removes Odysseus’ anger, as well as Penelope’s virtuous traits, once again putting the weight on her causing him anguish. “By God” is also a clear anachronism; Wilson points out it may be inspired by Fitzgerald’s “by heaven,” but at least the heavens could still be understood in a greek pantheon sense, while a singular capital-G God feels entirely out of place as an exclamation.

So, let us come back to Wilson's translation:

*Emily Wilson (2017)

She spoke to test him and Odysseus

was furious, and told his loyal wife,

"Woman! Your words have cut my heart! Who moved

my bed?"

This translation is quite direct, and hits the important notes with a nice iambic flow.

This is what she says about her own translation, in comparison to the others:

“The others render αὐτὰρ as "but", but it can also mean "and": I used "and", because Odysseus' touchy fury is exactly what Penelope has been aiming to achieve, so it seems to me just as likely to be connective as adversative. I juxtaposed "wife/ Woman!" to underline the central question of which she is, and because it seems to me crucial that the original includes those two distinct words for her role (ἄλοχον ...

γύναι). I enjambed, to move that bed... The original doesn't enjamb "moved/ bed" as such, but it does create a linguistic gap in the line between Odysseus himself (μοι) and the bed (λέχος), which seems to me important in evoking his state of mind – the intertwining of anxiety and grief along with the explicit anger, which come from a horror at an all-too-possible loss of a piece of furniture that is intimately entwined with the speaker’s sense of his own identity. In general, I tried not to add too much; I felt the emphatic particles ἦ μάλα could be conveyed just by the exclamation mark, such that I didn't need to add "By God" or equivalents – which would also risk making the pacing feel slower than the original. I hoped to convey both the emotional intensity and the emotional complexity of this wonderful moment in the poem, without doing too much to ham it up.”

It's interesting to note that aside from Wilson, only Lattimore and Fagles include Penelope's virtuous qualities, and only Fagles and Lombardo include the wife/woman juxtaposition. There are plenty more translations in the years between Cowper and Lattimore, but these were the ones I was able to get easy access to, and I didn't want this to get TOO long. If there's interest, I'm happy to do what I can to compare more translations, or look at other scenes!

Also, for fun, I attempted my own t4anslation to see if I could do one with both rhyme and meter!

Dreaming-mushroom (2025):

She spoke of this to test him, and Odysseus indeed

Was angered to the core, so to his crafty wife he plea’d:

“O woman, these words of yours have deeply grieved my heart;

What man could move that bed of mine, unless a god took part?”

I'm sure this would be a huge challenge to keep up for the entire epic poem, but it was fun to try!

What are your thoughts on the differences in translation for this passage? How do they sound different on the page vs read aloud? Which is your favorite?

[rockalillygirl]

Iliad Book 1 Thoughts

I've been really tired the past couple weeks so it's been hard to get myself to finish this book but I finally did it.

So far, Fagles' verse makes everyone more likeable Except for Agamemnon lol. No amount of poetry can redeem such a repugnant asshole. Love that in this translation Achilles calls him a dog-face. Get him!

But in general my feelings about the book haven't changed from Pope's translation. Though the opening is certainly more affecting- Fagles' first 3 lines literally gave me chills.

Rage- Goddess, sing the rage of Peleus' son Achilles,

murderous, doomed, that cost the Achaeans countless losses,

Hurling down to the House of Death so many sturdy souls,

It's heady stuff.

Everyone is still unbelievably petty but at least they sound good doing it. Zeus is still everyone's abusive dad, but this time Hera is made out to be more of a shrew as if that excuses any of his behaviour.

The order of the Heavens reflects the order of the human world. Zeus and Agamemnon are essentially the same. Bullies that must be appeased because everyone is too terrified of their violence. Odd then that I haven't seen Agamemon or Zeus do that much violence. Achilles is the one consumed by it. But its the treat of Agamemnon's/Zeus' power which threatens even greater heroes.

I feel like I'm learning a lot about the mindset of these ancient cultures. They had some cool motifs but also a lot of poisonous ideas that we're still struggling to shrug off today.

I think the central question I'm going to be asking throughout this reading is whether any of this deserves the grief the poem is asking of me. Is Troy worth mourning? And what about the Achaeans or even Achilles?

I don't know how I'm going to feel about it by the end.

[yourgothicheroine]

She (Clytemnestra) describes her murder of Agamemnon in terms that invert the usual assumptions about gender roles. She was the hunter, he was the prey; she caught him in a robe as fishermen catch fish. He was in his bath and, therefore, presumably naked and supine; she stood over him, armed, as a warrior. These inversions of gender roles are shocking enough, but then she uses sexual imagery, recasting herself as female, that is more shocking still. She says that she enjoyed his blood splattering on her as flowers enjoy the rain of Zeus.Rain fertilizing plants is a commonplace metaphor for sexual intercourse. Thus, Clytaemestra seems to be saying that she derived sexual enjoyment from killing Agamemnon.

— Elizabeth vandiver, Greek tragedy lecture on Agamemnon by Aeschylus