Hi Fedon. I don't know if you already answered about this subject but what is your take on how D&D portrayed Jon's characterization in S8, I mean why they changed Jon's behavior so much throughout the season, it had a lot of inconsistencies, and how could this play out in the books? I haven't read them yet and I'm afraid I never will, it seems GRRM will never end the series :(
Hi there!
Season 8 Jon can rot for all I care (lol). No, not really, but Jon was probably the character who suffered most from the general agenda of season 8 which was: Let's hide the DarkDany twist until the very end. His emotional story was completely sideblinded for Dany. I mean we didn't even get to see how Sansa and Ary@ reacted to the parentage reveal. We didn't get to see how Jon came to terms with the reveal.
On the other hand they had to get in some hints that Jon was not totally besotted. So we had Sansa asking him if he loved her, we had that cringe kiss after the dragonride and the line "we'd be old". We had the fact that Jon gave zero fucks to protect Dany during the long night (not to mention the deleted scene where the Northerners spit at her and he grins).
If you pressure me to give an interpretation I would say that Jon was Political Jon from episode 1-3, trying to ensure that Dany would fight for them and prioritizing that over everything else. After the White Walkers were defeated he switched to SacrificialJon. He wanted Dany to be gone from the North as fast as possible (even against reasonable advice) and was fully prepared to a) never mention his own claim and b) to forsake the North for ever (I mean he let Ghost go with Tormund!) if it meant that his family was safe. He really did not want the throne because he thought that serving Dany would be the only way to keep his family safe.
Then he sort of stumbled into the war crimes that were committed in King's Landing and at the latest he decided that it was his task to kill Dany when Ary@ spoke with him and when he heard her speech.
It could have been consistent if they had not inserted that Tyrion-Jon convo in episode 6, the one that finally and completely threw Jon's character under the bus.
I think if you take away that scene, you get someone who wants to protect his family at all costs but not at the cost of seizing power himself (I mean that would have been an option, but one Jon deliberately did not try). And he hesitated so long to defect, feeling bound to an oath that had been given under duress, that it was too late in a way. By the time, he decided to kill the tyrant, too many people had died already. If he had been more selfish and had sided with Varys, the destruction of King's Landing could have been prevented. But everyone is wiser after the fact.
That's how I see him. Not exactly the smart guy I fell in love with in the books, but I think it's almost consistent, if you just cut that Tyrion-Jon convo.
As for the books: I try not to be too hopeful, but we might get at least the Winds of Winter.
I loved the man who fought for the living. I loved the man who loved his family, the Starks. I admired his moral strength. There was a lot I liked about his character.
This is not the Jon Snow I came to favor above other characters.
The Jon Snow I love would have seen Daenerys for what she was. He would not become a blind follower, parroting “My queen” to the queen of the ashes. He would not have to be convinced by fucking Tyrion Lannister that Daenerys is not the just ruler she proclaims herself to be—especially after witnessing the horror and devastation she rained down upon a city of innocents.
The Jon I know would not have easily brushed aside his best friend’s grief when he learned his family died by the hand of Jon’s lover. Jon would have sought, at the very least, an explanation from the woman who burnt his friend’s family alive, men who were prisoners of war. The Jon I know would not have continued to blindly follow a woman that burnt a man alive in front of him. Not when we have canonical evidence of him despising that method of execution when he shot an arrow through Mance’s heart to spare him a gruesome death by fire. Even though it was treason against Stannis and could have meant Jon’s own death.
The Jon I know would not have ignored his family’s distrust and advice.
Jon had already seen how volatile she was. He had seen how often she had to be talked out of burning Kings Landing to rubble. He had heard her more or less threaten Sansa time and time again. He was victim to her emotional manipulation when she told him to keep his parentage a secret—never mind that the Starks had a right to know that their lord father never betrayed their mother’s honor or love.
On and on and on.
Sacrificial/Political Jon were theories meant to salvage his character. Why else would a man who has placed duty above everything else unnecessarily give up his kingdom’s hard-won sovereignty to a woman they did not choose?
The theory I believed in was more of the sacrificial variety. That, after seeing how easily she forgot and cast aside her Dornish and Ironborn allies, he needed to be assured of her aid even if Cersei didn’t accept the truce. And so Jon would have bent the knee, and gotten into a physical relationship with the dragon queen, knowing that she was interested in him. And why not? They were both single, she was apparently barren so he would not father any bastards, and he most likely found her attractive. I was of the belief that, although he didn’t love her when he bedded her, Jon hoped for an amicable future with her for as long as she wanted him by her side. Sacrificial!Jon would be wary of the dragon queen. He would see how volatile she was and not be blinded by her dragons and speeches of Targaryen superiority. Sacrificial!Jon would have seen and understood what Daenerys was.
The signs were there. Jon Snow saw them.
And there were moments where I believed he—well, it doesn’t really matter now, does it?
I had thought he was acting out of caution or even fear. Caution to calm and placate her temper and impulses. Fear of the danger her dragons could bring to his family and people. That maybe he was truly afraid of his aunt’s increasing paranoia. But it seems that was not the case.
Because, in the end, the Jon Snow I loved apparently ceased to exist the moment he bent the knee out of love and betrayed his kingdom for a woman that would rain fire and blood over Westeros.
From that point onward there was no forethought to his words or actions. There was no agency or motive. He was a blind man. A stubborn man. A man who still insisted on being loyal to a woman who burnt thousands of men, woman, and children after they had already surrendered.
He acted like a lone wolf, demanded trust from Sansa Stark without giving it in turn. Over and over he questioned her intelligence. Over and over he ignored her council. And she was right. And even then, she was ready to go to war for him in the council at the Dragon Pit. She told Greyworm she had thousands of northmen ready to fight if they didn’t give her Jon... If the Jon Snow they showed on screen tonight is the real Jon Snow, I am more than fine with Jonsa not happening in canon. And honestly, I do feel bad for the Jonerys ship. It was not written well and I cannot even begin to imagine how they must feel after tonight. To not even know what happened to Drogon or Dany’s body, no resolution at all... It is not a satisfying ending at all.
So, yes. I loved Jon Snow.
But I cannot understand or like the character that he became.
An Archive of Our Own, a project of the Organization for Transformative Works
Chapters: 4/?
Fandom: Game of Thrones (TV), A Song of Ice and Fire - George R. R. Martin, A Song of Ice and Fire & Related Fandoms
Rating: Mature
Warnings: Graphic Depictions Of Violence, Major Character Death
Relationships: Jon Snow/Sansa Stark, Jonsa - Relationship
Characters: Jon Snow | Aegon Targaryen, Jon Snow, Sansa Stark, Arya Stark, Daenerys Targaryen, Bran Stark, Tyrion Lannister, Brienne of Tarth
Additional Tags: Hurt/Comfort, Post-War, Angst, Family, Love, Incest, Cousins, mention of rape, Torture, Death, Suicide, War Crimes, Post Season 8, Canon Compliant, Jonsa endgame
Summary:
My name is Aryana of House Stark, First of my Name, The Promised Child, the Dragonwolf, the Summerborn, Lady of Winterfell, the Auburn Queen and Protector of the Seven Kingdoms. And this is the story of my parents, Queen Sansa of House Stark and King Aegon Targaryen, Sixth of his Name -once known as Jon Snow-.
Following Season 8 and fixing EVERYTHING for our King and Queen in the North!
Chapter Three Preview:
He spoke no Valyrian but from the reaction of her war-thirsty armies, she promised them more, King’s Landing had only been the beginning. At the mention of Winterfell he felt his knees going weak. Tyrion moved close to Daenerys, she told him something and he nodded before he could throw away the pin of the Hand. He was arrested immediately after. Varys was gone, Tyrion was soon to be destroyed too and then it was his turn, and she knew only half his betrayal, she didn’t know of the fake feelings he had persuaded he had for her. And he very well knew, after himself, it would be Sansa.
JON: I need your advice. There's something I want to do, something I have to do. But it'll divide the Night's Watch. Bitterly. Half the men will hate me the moment I give the order.
AEMON: Half the men hate you already, Lord Commander. Do it.
JON: But you don't know what it is.
AEMON: That doesn't matter. You do. You will find little joy in your command. But with luck, you will find the strength to do what needs to be done. Kill the boy, Jon Snow. Winter is almost upon us. Kill the boy, and let the man be born.
Everyone remembers this scene. Jon Snow seeks Maester Aemon’s advice with regard to bringing the Wildlings south of the Wall into Westeros. He knows it will be controversial and he knows he will face scorn.
Aemon concludes that Jon must do what he believes to be the right thing, not matter what.
I believe this serves as a perfect mirror to Jon’s navigation of the alliance with Daenerys and the moral dilemmas he is sure to face in Season 8 with his family, the North, and Daenerys herself.
Let’s examine how it perfectly parallels political!Jon:
The Setup: In both circumstances, Jon Snow must leave the relative comfort and safety of his “base” of operations.
In Season 5, Jon was a newly elected Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch. He had made moves to reinforce his authority by having Janos Slynt beheaded for his repeatedly refusing to follow orders.
In Season 7, Jon was newly chosen as King in the North. There, too, he made moves to reinforce his authority by mending alliances with the Karstarks and the Umbers.
The easy thing to do is stay there where he’s relatively popular (even if not universally) and also relatively safe.
The Conflict: In neither scenario does Jon WANT to leave. It’s a matter of what he MUST do. He must go towards danger to gain allies in the hopes of positioning the realm better against the WW threat.
In Season 5, Jon feels he must go to Hardhome to bring the Free Folk back south despite centuries of war between the Night’s Watch and the Free Folk.
In Season 7, Jon feels he must go to Dragonstone to bring the Targaryen army back North despite the fact the Mad King killed his uncle and grandfather and the North fought to overthrow the Targaryens.
The Setting: Jon, unique from every other character, is routinely presented as the most democratic political leader on the show. The High Sparrow talked like a populist but made unilateral decisions. Daenerys, Cersei, Stannis, etc. have all had councils to advise them but have ultimately never had their feet put to the public fire like Jon. Daenerys tried when she had Mossador beheaded, and it caused a riot.
Jon is different.
He answers concerns. Some of the other leaders on the show would consider many of the earnest opinions from his subordinates treasonous. No one allows people to speak out against him like Jon does. Part is his temperament, part is his undervaluing his own abilities, and part is his upbringing.
In Season 5, it’s at Castle Black with all the other brothers of the Watch having their say. It doesn’t mean Jon will be swayed by their opinions, but he will listen.
In Season 7, it’s at Winterfell. Some of his most important supporters speak out against him.
The Inner Struggle: In both situations, Jon knows that one course of action is right, even if it causes people to hate him.
That’s part of letting that man be born. Aemon wasn’t saying that you have to be ruthless to rule. He was saying that you WILL be faced with choices where both options are bad and people will be hurt but leaders are in their positions because they are required to do difficult things.
Some of those things might include leaving home. Leaving loved ones. Putting yourself in danger.
In Season 5, Jon’s most difficult disagreement comes with Edd.
In Season 7, Jon’s most difficult disagreement comes with Sansa.
However...Edd stuck by Jon and is basically the biggest reason why the mutineers were unable to destroy Jon’s body before he could be resurrected.
Similarly, Sansa stuck by Jon while he was gone by refusing to usurp his power, focusing on the WW threat on Jon’s word that it was more dangerous than Cersei, and eliminating Jon’s biggest (current) political problem by sentencing Littlefinger to die.
*SIDENOTE* All this talk about the Northerners (and Jon) so focused on the threat from beyond the wall that they’ve not yet understood the threat on the other side of the Wall.......... Ice and Fire ........ anyway...
The Decision: In both instances, Jon is forced to make an unpopular decision.
In Season 5, he makes his final pleas for understanding, not for permission.
In Season 7, he does the same thing.
It’s interesting that when Sansa decides to speak, the camera emphasizes an unbroken and prolonged period of direct eye contract between Jon and Sansa whereas the other criticisms focus much more on the rest of the room. The cinematic reason is to show that essentially this became an intimate conversation between Sansa and Jon.
The difference in Season 5 has Jon at a super close up showing that the scene is primarily about him and how he is dealing with this situation. Before Sansa speaks, it is about Jon primarily. However from the time Sansa speaks, it shifts to equal zoom shots of both Jon and Sansa and it’s as if they see only each other.
It’s pretty cool. But why does that matter on a narrative level?
If both situations look so similar, doesn’t that bode poorly for Jon? He was murdered for his actions regarding the Wildlings. If he’s to become deeply unpopular from bringing Daenerys back (and he will, that’s why the show paralleled the Wildling scenario) - isn’t Jon’s death basically a guarantee?
My answer: No, due to one key difference.
The Difference
Sansa is the difference for Jon. Whether you think it will become romantic or not (I happen to think it will) the fact of the matter is that Sansa represents the exact opposite to Jon that Aliser Thorne represented in his absence.
Thorne represented the knife in Jon’s back that Littlefinger refers to as the more dangerous enemy in the books. While Jon SHOULD have earned his trust by naming him First Ranger, he instead plotted to have Jon killed.
Conversely, Sansa has worked tirelessly to maintain Jon’s political support. She has refused to entertain usurping his political power. She grew his army (if you think the number of men referenced by Jon and Sansa means anything) and she’s taken measures to make sure their fed (unlike a certain Dragon Queen who would prefer to burn the food). She’s juggled Bran and Arya’s returns, each with their own difficulties for her on a personal level - and yet the North remains intact upon Jon’s impending return with Daenerys.
When Jon was killed in S5/E10 he had no support system to fall back on once he returned. He granted Samwell's request to leave for the Citadel to protect him, Maester Aemon died, and he was left with no one to watch his back. Whether he got lured to the gate by Olly or not, his days were numbered.
When Jon faces political scrutiny, first for bringing a Targaryen back to the North and seemingly giving away his kingdom to her, THEN when it’s found out that he actually IS a Targaryen himself...there will be trouble. And the only person positioned to protect Jon in a way that he couldn’t be protected at Castle Black is Sansa.
It’s very possible he will be “unnamed” as King in the North - or his crown will only be allowed to stay with him on the condition that he “prove” himself to be loyal to the North. Those are possible scenarios.
Season 7′s Mr. Honesty will be the most disliked character in the North for a time. Daenerys is bound to have her suspicions regarding his loyalties and if there comes a rivalry with Sansa over Jon’s affections, it’s also possible that will factor into her mistrust of the Northerners as a whole. The Northerners, on the other hand, will find out that their king is the son of the man who caused a destructive war. They’ll learn that his grandfather is the one that killed Brandon and Rickard Stark. Even if he hasn’t lied, his existence will be seen as a lie - - unless someone whom the Northerners DO trust is there to pick up the pieces...and that person is Sansa.
A choice is coming for Jon. He will be faced with the prospect of losing either the support of his own people and severing his identity with House Stark or be faced with the scorn of his new ally (who also happens to be in love and/or infatuated with him) and risk imploding the alliance that he believes is the only way to save the world from the Night King.
If R+L=J is a problem for Jon from the Northerners AND with Daenerys...it puts Jon in a vulnerable position. It makes narrative sense that the only way in which Jon can survive this turmoil is for someone to be able to fix the problem for him.
Sansa Stark is that person. A marriage with her solves his issues with the Northern lords. It does NOT solve the problem of Daenerys’ scorn and suspicions. The alternative is Jon staying with Daenerys, embracing his name but not his claim, and severing his relationship with the North. If the Northern lords won’t back a Targaryen, it’s irreparable with regard to his relationship with the Starks.
That’s the nexus of the Dance of Dragons 2.0. Jon CAN’T serve two queens. There’s too much incompatibility between the Jon, the North, and Daenerys.
Jon cares about his home.
Jon cares about his family.
Jon cares about his people.
Daenerys wants to rule his home.
Daenerys wants his family to be politically subservient.
Daenerys wants to subjugate his people.
For Jon, it’ll be no choice at all.
There’s a reason they’ve shown Sansa to be Jon’s partner in a way that positions her as a wife rather than a sibling/cousin. She’ll be at his side because she’s already been at his side since they reunited.
His choices have already been difficult. He faces one more tough one in Season 8. I’m pretty sure I know what his choice will be. It will cause fallout and the fallout will be his song.
You know there's another reason I really want to believe Jon has ulterior motives when it comes to Dany, that he didn't just stupidly fall for her like every other man and gave her the North because of those feelings. It's not only to salvage whatever's left of his character, but also because him not being fully or genuinely in love with her bodes well for his chances of survival. And not just because it would mean he finally learned to the play the game (though of course, that skill is also key to his future survival).
Giving him a second epic but tragic love story à la Ygritte kind of reads to me like one last hurrah before his demise, a bit like Robb x Talisa. On the other hand, if his relationship with Dany proves to be something less than straight up romance/true love from his POV, I'd say that's a good sign that Jon will survive past the last episode, that his chance at love and happiness is yet to come. The same goes for Sansa. The fact she has yet to experience genuine romantic love gives me hope it's still to come. Like Arya said, their stories aren't over yet.
In contrast, you have Dany who I'm almost positive won't live to see the end of the story. Her being truly in love with Jon makes sense narratively, giving her (and the audience) the false impression she's getting the whole package: the North served on a silver platter, the love of the brave and handsome hero, even a pregnancy most likely. Before pulling the rug from under her feet with RLJ and/or Targbowl and/or Jon's betrayal and/or a miscarriage and ultimately her death. It would also make Jon's potential "betrayal" that more painful. Just to REALLY pull at our heartstrings, you know?
Friendly reminder that Jon Snow who is supposedly together with the love of his life is so full of self-loathing at the moment, that the only answer he has to his best friend who wants to call his son after him is to express the wish that the baby will be a girl.
He feels so bad that he sends away his direwolf because he wants at least a part of his soul to be free....
Jon Snow is trapped in an abusive relationship, and that is the truth Sansa and Arya face.
Jonsa fans don't believe that Jon ever loved Daenerys as I've noticed . Abd I tend to agree. Eithef Kit is an aegul actor or yhe script simply didn't make him look in love. Maximum he had some lust mixed with cautious respect. Never love or even strong crush. Maybe he felt more fondness and gratefulness after saving. However, do you think Daenerys loved him? Was she able to truly love anyone?
Dear nonny,
Kit does know how to act in love. Even if you maintain that he was good at playing in love in the Ygritte arc because he actually fell for Rose Leslie when they filmed, there is still Pompeii and Testament of youth, where he knew perfectly well how to play in love, and had chemistry with the female leads.
Of course and actor’s performance is always up to debate. Even acclaimed actors like Meryl Streep might not convey everything they want all the time. Still, what I got from Kit’s acting was that he took a dislike to her at their very first meeting, but then proceeded to treat her with caution and persuasion (in the cave). When that did not work to make her fulfill her damn duty to protect the realm she wanted to rule, he went on a suicide mission just to get away from her. When he woke on that boat which was bent south, he knew he had to go all the way. Pledge allegiance so that she would finally be committed. I do think that lust might have come into it, when he knocked on that door, but the way boatsex was filmed, I still tend to interpret it as Political Jon.
I think, he then decided, that he had given his word and that for once in his life, he would stand by his word, and that all his actions in season 8 there those of Sacrificial (if incredibly dumb) Jon. We still saw some of Kit’s micro expressions, when he was unobserved by Dany (like at the war council when his eyes tightened when she said something stupid) or after the feast, when she came to his chamber and his back was to her.
As for Dany... I like to call it infatuation. She was more in love with what she thought Jon was: someone ‘special’ like her. Someone who would be a price for her. Someone who would add to her own glory. If someone who came back from the dead is her lover, she must be special as well, a jewel in her own crown so to say. Through him she can show herself to be oh so generous and help the North in Jon’s war. As with every narcissist, her relationship with Jon is about her, and then she even becomes abusive. She demands (!) of him to love her and her goals (which are nothing to him) more than his own family. I do think that one of the reasons she blames Sansa for the truth getting out, is that she ultimately feels betrayed that Jon did not keep his mouth shut, but she probably knows, that she has asked too much of him, and therefore she lashes out against Sansa. The fact that she lashes out against Sansa is maybe a sign, that she still cares about Jon. She is like the goddess Hera who kills her husband’s lovers but never threatens her husband. So, she wants to get back at him for betraying her and yet she still wants to keep him (as a trophy?).
So, that is not love, it is her need to be worshipped. Like every narcisssist she needs to come first.... All the time.... And woe to the people who show her that they put others before her. It is no wonder, that Dany had the feeling that it was only Jorah who loved her truly.
