i kinda want you to sort holden caulfield now... what do you think?
Hmm. Loyalist primary for sure. Holden spends The Catcher in the Rye in free-fall, and the only touchstones that ground him are people: his crush Jane, his little sister Phoebe, his little brother Allie. When he's heavily in crisis, Holden starts actually praying to Allie, asking for protection. (In terms of *structure* this is mostly a book about Holden processing Allie's death.)
So I thought Snake primary at first. That's a short list of people. But on a read-though... I was struck by how much Holden thinks about groups. He's extremely class conscious. He angsts about the wealth divide. He doesn't know what to do about it (that's one of his problems) but dwells on it constantly. Situations where he might have to potentially out himself as a member of a different group than the person he's talking to stress him out. A really clean example is when he's all worried that the nuns might ask him if he's Catholic, out of the blue.
Holden is also super concerned with etiquette. He will judge people for doing things like ordering a Tom Collins in December, or not having a handkerchief with them. He is very aware of and will comment on the correct thing to wear in any situation. "The father had on one of those pearl-grey hats that poor guys wear when they're trying to look sharp" is a very nuanced fashion critique. This focus on the way things should be done also feels very Badger primary to me.
I think Holden has this cultural reputation of being a lone wolf, a rebel-without-a-cause, on-the-road type. But he's been retroactively colored by the characters he inspired. He's running around in the late forties, not mid-fifties like James Dean and Jack Kerouac. Holden Caulfield is a contemporary of like, Steve Rogers. And this kid is the absolute opposite of a lone wolf - always striking up conversations, always trying to make friends, offering to buy a drink for practically every person he meets. Cab drivers. Piano players. Tourists. Random people he doesn't like but thinks might be in town. His older brother's ex-girlfriends.
So anyway. Holden is a Badger primary who doesn't have a community, and is desperately trying to either find one, or make one. His fantasy is running away to either work on a ranch, or work in a gas station. He's been shipped away to four boarding schools in three years (away from his family and his support systems) and it's kind of been the worst thing for him.
*
Holden's secondary is hard, because he spends the book in crisis mostly trying to avoid things and distract himself. And he very much needs to eat a sandwich, drink a glass of water, and have a nap. Can't live on cigarettes and daiquiris, Holden baby.
So his secondary is definitely burnt, and he also definitely has PTSD. But underneath that... Holden has a really weird relationship with honesty. He reacts very, very badly to anyone who he perceives to be acting (including like, actual actors in movies.) Holden Caulfield hates it when people are "phony." It's his catchphrase.
But. Holden lies a lot. He tells multiple people that he's going to have a semi-serious operation the next day. He fakes a leg injury to get past a doorman. He deliberately lowers his voice to seem older. He gives fake names (Jim Steele lol) He pretends that he knows people to keep a conversation going. And he's super aware of this -"I'm the most terrific liar you ever saw in your life. It's awful. If I'm on the way to the store to buy a magazine, even, and someone asks where I'm going, I'm liable to say I'm going to the opera. It's terrible."
There's also this bit early early on where he's saying goodbye to a teacher, and I bring it up because it's the closest thing to baseline Holden I think we ever see. And... he's doing some Snake secondary arms-length shifting. He's deliberately using a mask to charm somebody, but also not really feeling it, and not at all bothered by that. This is easy for him.
Well, you could see he really felt pretty lousy about flunking me. So I shot the bull for a while. (...) I told him how I would've done exactly the same thing if I'd been in his place, and how most people didn't appreciate how tough it is being a teacher. That kind of stuff. The old bull. The funny thing is, though, I was sort of thinking of something else while I shot the bull. (...) I'm lucky, though. I mean I could shoot the old bull to old Spencer and think about those ducks at the same time.
So that's my diagnosis of Holden. He's got a strong Badger primary, and a burned Snake secondary that he feels guilty about using. Which actually seems to be a pattern for Badger Snakes.
Hello, I hope you’re doing well! I’m having a lot of confusion over my secondary, so a second opinion to help me untangle things would be lovely.
I’m pretty confident I’m a Snake with a Badger model that determines what I do when my people aren’t involved. Essentially, people are always important, but my people are most important to me. When push comes to shove I will protect them first (or feel worse about myself if I fail to).
So far, so good.
I think my secondary is at least a little burnt, in part because I’ve always struggled with interacting with people and don’t tend to think of myself as someone who’s capable of making an impact in people’s lives when it matters. I can remember several situations where I didn’t reach out to someone who needed my help, especially one of mine, because I was convinced that person would never want help from me.
That’s proper burnt secondary talk. You knew what you wanted to do, you knew what would feel good to do, but you DIDN’T do it because you didn’t think it would work.
I know better than to do that now, and I’m trying to get better at believing in my own abilities (and the fact that other people can want me around). I’m hoping it’ll help to get a better idea of what those abilities even are.
You’re unBurning. Good.
I’ve thought ever since I first discovered this sorting system that I must be an improvisational secondary. I’ve never thought of myself as a fan of plans and prepwork - I get stressed out that I’ll forget important things and be left stranded. I remember back in high school when I was getting used to using public transport, my mum went with me to do a trial run of a route I needed to travel in advance. I was stressed enough about the event I was travelling to as it was, and the trail run made it so much worse, because there was so much to remember, what if I forgot something? What eventually made me feel more comfortable about it was trusting myself to figure it out on the day.
What a gorgeous way to explain the difference between a Built (prepwork) secondary and an Improvisational secondary. Trial runs make me feel so much better and so much more comfortable. And I’m a built secondary (and I bet your mom is too.)
Nowadays, when I’m travelling somewhere I’m unfamiliar with I’d much rather just leave half an hour early to give myself some breathing room in case I mess up.
Perfect. Excellent improvisational secondary problem solving.
Following strict schedules just trips me up too - say I’m doing classwork for the afternoon, for example, I need the freedom to be able to say that actually I’m more in the mood for Subject B than Subject A. I like having space to improvise, and I feel really proud of myself when I pull off something on the fly!
Once for a final exam in high school, we had to write an essay for The Lord of the Flies using a set of quotes from the text we’d chosen and memorised beforehand. The essay question was only revealed in the exam, and it turned out to be asking us to write an essay about one specific character - except I didn’t have enough quotes for any one character, I’d deliberately made them very spread out. What I did instead was to argue for the symbol of the Lord of the Flies as a character, and make each paragraph about each different character’s relationship to ‘him’ and what that relationship revealed about the characters, so I could make use of my range of quotes. I’m sure my writing wouldn‘t hold up now, I’ve gotten better at writing since then, but I still think of it as one of the essays I’m proudest of.
I would have given you an A. That sounds brilliant.
So that all seems to point to an improvisational secondary, but - reading about Rapid-Fire Birds has made me question whether that’s actually what I’m doing instead, and I have no idea how to tell. What‘s the difference between an improvisational secondary using information they already have to help them improvise, and a Rapid-Fire Bird doing the same thing? To what extent can Birds dislike relying on lists and planning?
You’re an Improvisational secondary. A pretty loud improvisational secondary (and almost certainly a Snake because you value the ability to pivot quickly so highly.) Rapid-fire birds can *look* like Snakes from the outside, but it’s a totally different internal experience. A rapid-fire bird might be comfortable improvising their bus route - but only in an area that they already know super well. Rapid-fire birds look like Snakes… as long as they are operating within their area of expertise, are coming from a place of strength.
And where does looking for more information while you solve a problem, rather than beforehand, fit within the secondaries?
Feeling more comfortable and confident looking *around* you while solving a problem (versus bringing in a bag of tricks at the start) is an Improvisational secondary thing.
When I’m involved in a debate about something that relies on a piece of information - a definition of a word, a statistic, some sort of other fact - I’m known as the person who’ll pull out my phone and say ’oh! I’ll Google it!’.
This might be a Bird [model] thing, but I’m inclined to think it’s just a person thing.
(Sometimes people don’t seem to get why I do that - they’ll say it looks like I’m taking things too seriously when it’s just a silly discussion for fun? But it just makes sense to me, we need information and that information is easily in reach, why shouldn’t I go get it, silly conversation or not?)
Okay, scratch that, I actually think this is a generational thing. *Baby Boomers* get annoyed at me when I do this.
I’m the same way when I research for writing. I don‘t tend to go looking for specific resources when I don’t have a story on them planned, but I love digging into specific subjects and resources and systems to ground a story in, once I have a concept to work with and I know what could be useful.
I love digging into complex systems in general, really (hello, sorting hat chats!). But it’s not like I do it because I think it’ll be useful later - unless I know it will be, because it’s relevant to a problem I’ve already been presented with. And I know just having nerdy interests does not a true Bird make.
I think you probably have a fun Bird model.
But if I’m not a Bird - or if it’s only a model - which improvisational secondary do I even have? I’ve always figured Lion seems more likely, because I’ve never related to the ‘silver-tongued’ skill of Snakes.
I wonder if you relate at all to the idea of single-player snake - constantly pivoting, using their environment, problem solving on the fly. I think of Scotty from Star Trek - someone I would never describe as silver-tongued, and who’s happy being solitary. But he still problem solves the way a Snake does.
I do tend to be pretty stubborn and dig my heels in when I’m challenged, in a quiet sort of way. But the difference between charging or swerving when you head for something has always seemed hard to grasp, for me. When you’ve got something to go for, you just… go, and some obstacles can be barged through and some you can’t, so you try and then go around.
I actually think that’s a very Snake way of putting things. A Lion would say that you *can* punch though everything, given enough will power and enough time. It’s what makes their energy so intoxicating, and where a lot of their power and trustworthiness comes from. They keep at something until they fail.
(oh and also ~ I have noticed that generally, Lion secondaries make no sense to Snake secondaries and vice versa.)
I do relate more to a Lion’s interacting with everyone mostly the same - with ‘varying degrees of awkwardness’, as I think another asker phrased it - rather than creating masks for everyone on the fly. But I’m not sure anymore if that’s powerful for me or if it’s just… all I can do. This goes back to being burnt socially, I think - I feel like I‘m working with nothing at all when I talk to people.
Whatever secondary I’ve got, I don’t think I’m capable of using its ‘multiplayer’ skills very well. Or at least, I haven’t learnt to yet, and I feel like I‘ve gotten worse. Although, more than a year of not being able to talk to most people in person hasn’t helped.
Yeah, you and me both. You’re a little burned about this, which makes sorting hard. You might just be a Snake who… isn’t very social.
And as for Lions valuing authenticity… I do and I don’t? I’m not sure if that’s just because I’m a private person and I don’t like exposing all of myself and my interests and opinions, it makes me feel vulnerable.
I know it sounds crazy, but if you were a Lion, that would make you feel strong.
But I won’t lie about myself if someone asks about something I’m not willing to share, I’ll usually find something that’s still true and answers their question but’s less personal. To what extend do Lions do that?
Generally, “I don’t owe strangers the real me” is just… not something Lions secondaries think. Sometimes they lower their intensity. But they are unusual because they feel best and strongest when they put themselves out there.
But I also think that any ‘mask’ you create is still, to a great extent, a part of you and a reflection of who you are. People talk about it like you have a ‘core’ that is completely you and then a performance you make on top is automatically ‘fake’. That doesn’t make sense to me.
That’s because you’re a Snake. If you were a Lion, you would relate more to this idea of an ideal presentational “core.”
Performances can be helpful to express yourself, in a sense. And everything you make is self-portrait.
That is an incredibly Snake thing to say. Also, Snakes have a tendency to conceptualize their masks as “art.”
In any case - I hope this wasn‘t too long. Thank you for helping me sort through all of this!
You are very welcome. I thought this one was really interesting.
I reckon my primary is Lion, maybe? My values often boiled down to “if I care about it, I care, if not then … **** it.”
Probably an internal primary. Lion is certainly possible.
I’m normally very ambitious. It’s almost impossible imagining my life without this cause. At some point in my life, I’ve become my cause. I embodied it completely I couldn’t see anything outside of it. All my relationships, all my decisions were in service of the cause. However, lately I learn that it doesn’t do to hide myself behind to cause just to avoid my insecurities.
Ooooh, someone seems a little Exploded. Is it possible that you’re healing from an Exploded Lion primary? (and if so, the note about insecurities is some good insight on what it feels like to be inside an Exploded Lion primary.)
I realize that I can just risk getting myself exposed and it’s ok that not everything in my life relates to my cause. I mean … my cause will always be the most important things in my life. But having fun and cherishing relationships are important too, because in the end, when I’ve done all that I want to do. I wouldn’t be alone surrounded by charred bridges and enemies on all sides.
Yeah… that can be the problem with being an Exploded Lion primary. (I’m really thinking Lion for you. Snakes explode and burn a little differently.)
I’m not content working under anyone. I want to dictate my fate and my cause. I want power but not to satisfy my ego. I want it so I can dictate my cause and see it happen. I loathe those who yearn for power just for the power’s sake. Power must be earned and it must be used justly to make a positive change in this world rather than to satisfy one’s ego.
This cause is not really learned though. I’ve never second thought it. I only know I have to do it and it is right for me. It just makes sense on its own and it would be betrayal of self not to do it. There is not much to be said here, because this cause has been rather stable for as long as I remember.
Oh you’ve got a Loud lion primary.
It might vary in intensity (from ‘all that matters’ to ‘vital, but not the only thing that exist’) but it never changed.
You might be a Double Lion (a Revolutionary.) This bit about changing intensities is starting to sound kinda Lion secondary.
Ideally, what I want to build is a fishing company that will empower indigenous communities. I will use the resources harnessed from it to better the environment, support ethnic issues, cultural preservation, community growth and environment conservation. If I could manage to go that far, the dream would be to give full, unconditional scholarships to anyone with the heart and desire to do some good to society. I don’t want anyone to struggle like I do. I don’t want to see any more people ripped from their home, their culture. I don’t want to see any forest or sea crying in pain anymore. That is my ambition. That is my cause.
The fire you’ve got! Yeah, you’re intense. You’re really intense. I’m doubling down on Double Lion. Sure, your cause might be focused around people and communities, but it’s coming from a Lion place. The Righteous Cause.
(and also this tendency to just… not really care if you burn bridges. Very Lion, not so much Badger.)
There is a ruthless side to my morals, because I have no qualms about crushing those who might get in my way. I will offer peace and negotiate first but if they refuse, I will delete them.
Like, I know English isn’t your first language, so that’s probably influencing your word choice here - but I have to say. I am kind of loving the ice-cold rawness of I will delete them.
I don’t care much if people will love or hate me. I don’t do it to be loved. I only do it because I believe it is right. But as I mentioned, cause comes first, but relationships will be cherished too.
Really loud Lion primary… but keep an eye on that Explosion risk. Make sure you’ve got people who sometimes tell you you’re wrong. Don’t go all supervillain on me. :)
For secondary. I’m not sure… maybe not Badger? Nah, it’s hard. I’ve never really analyzed my actions.
lol lion
I’m comfortable with both planning and improvising. I think it’s impossible to stick to either improvising or planning. A plan without improvisation will be rigid and stale, but an improvisation without purpose or plan will just be another waste of energy. So, I use both at equal amount all the time.
Hmm. I’m hearing models, but that’s also generic enough to apply to almost anybody.
I’m inclined to trust my instinct more than apparent fact though.
… because you’re like, a REALLY LOUD Lion primary.
Even if the fact of the situation might point out ‘NOPE!’ if I feel it’s alright, I’ll still go for it. My hunch saves my skin for so many times I usually just trust it.
You just live in your primary all the time, huh?
I can relate to bird because I’m avid reader and I love gathering random knowledge just for the fun of it. Excuses be damned, if I want to learn, I learn. If anything, I don’t like learning because I need to. I want to learn when and what I want to do.
Again, could apply to any secondary (filtered though that lens of LION PRIMARY of course.)
I usually plan out the objectives, what I need, why I need and how I will make it happen, then execute it by improvising, but it’s still in service of the preplanned objectives. But if the plan doesn’t work anymore, I will just ditch it and go with whatever in front of me. Sticking perfectly within the plan will usually hamper my effort. But not having plan at all will make me aimless too.
This is very interesting, because I think we’re working with different definitions of “plan.” When you say plan, you seem to mean “goal” or “endgame” ie “What I want” (which of course goes right back to all the Lion primary business.) Like, you gave me a really coherent rundown of your objectives. You want to start a company doing a specific thing, eventually progress to giving out scholarships, etc.
But to my mind, that’s motive, and it’s different from the “planning” a Bird secondary likes to do. Bird secondaries like hoarding tools. They like steps. But you “execute by improvising.” “Go with whatever is in front of me.” You’re a very driven, very focused Improvisational secondary.
When I deal with people, the more I think, the worse I become.
… improvisational secondary
Yesterday, I had a big fight with my family. I exploded out, like really loud. But that was all a ruse.
Wait just one second. Are you a SNAKE secondary? Who likes to present as (or possibly even model) Lion secondary, Captain Kirk style?
Because I changed midway to being quiet and understanding which get me on top of the fight. On the inside, I felt neither angry nor happy. At that moment, I just … did it. I did not plan it. My temper just rose rapidly and then it dissipated when the moment came. And when the fight was finish, aside of adrenaline rush, I didn’t feel anything.
I think you’re a Snake secondary.
I’m not very comfortable with intentional deception. I’m a terrible liar when I tried to actively lie.
Yeah, see. “Actively lying” is a skill, it’s something you’ve got to prepare and plan for. It’s really more a Bird thing. What you do… probably doesn’t feel like lying.
But misleading or trickery are quite ok for me.
Exactly.
If some people want to think they are the top dog, let them. They will do all the work and I can just work on whatever I need without interference. It still bothers me sometimes when people think I’m omega dog but it’s fine, so long as I get what I want.
You’re not the Revolutionary, you’re the Robin Hood. Of course you are.
I’m normally very blunt and tactless. I have terrible temper that explodes quickly but I can just ignore it and perform too.
Some of this (who am I kidding, a lot of this) probably goes back to that semi-Exploded primary, but it’s also possible that you either model Lion secondary, and/or spend a lot of time in Neutral.
This might be unrelated but I’m often ignored and blend into the background, rather than apart from the crowd. One of my friends mentioned that while he knew how passionate I am about the cause ‘I’ve never seen to take any actions about your cause before’ until I went and made a speech in the mob. I am that unseen. I prefer working in the shadow, spinning webs and emerge into the light when no one can do anything about me anymore. Working so openly in the light feels odd for me.
… I think that’s the most Lion Snake thing I have *ever* read.
When I work in team, people tend to either love me (because quality of work is usually high) or hate me (because I can be really demanding.) When I work, I expect effectiveness and independence from my team. I don’t like micromanaging.
Another little hint that you’re an Idealist/Improvisational combo. You are the definition of a Big Picture person.
I give them the catch, and criteria. How they want to accomplish it is completely up to them.
Which is a really, really Improvisational way to work.
I believe there aren’t a correct way to do things. So long as the job gets done and all underlines met, it’s fine if you want to take short cuts.
Yep.
It is … very long. So, I thank you for reading it to this paragraph. I genuinely really appreciate it. I really, really love this tumblr and I hope to learn more about SHC. It’s just sooo interesting and refreshing. Keep it up :) Additional info: I’m ENFP 9w8 So/Sp
I think that the people who write in for sorting help fit into two general categories. There are people dealing with a Burning issue that masks their sorting… and there are people who are SO INCREDIBLY LOUDLY one sorting that they simply can’t see it. The way you can’t hear your own accent. Anyway, you very much belong in the second category.
Sorry if this is the improper channels, I just created my first ever tumblr account to follow you haha I would love help with sorting, you’re quite astute and it would be such a service to me as I’ve struggled for years with it, despite (or perhaps because of) reading so many posts about it! I’m much better at speed-reading randos, than I am at categorizing myself.
I was that classic gifted underachiever.
ugh, I hate the word “gifted.” I’m so pleased that it’s falling out of favor in education circles.
I felt bad for some of my teachers, because I knew they probably blamed themselves. To make them see I appreciated them, I would study their teaching methods, and then give them positive feedback. I was the kid who would sleep through English, then write a collection of stories about the teachers, infusing classical literature and mythological references, performed them in the cafeteria, and sold them for lots of money to the students.
You sound like you were probably bored. Look, don’t feel bad about your teachers. Some students are just Anakins. High ability, low emotional maturity. We know that all we can do is give you guys a safe space until you figure yourselves out.
I wrote about my incompetent Math Teacher, Mrs. Malatestinic, as the Malatesting-Sphinx, an awful creature that posed mathematical riddles she herself did not understand. She didn’t like that (I failed math by 1 percent that semester lol), but when the math department heard me reading, he gasped sharply, his face went bright red and he started shaking in a way that looked life stifled laughter.
… this is your second, like, vengeance narrative? (slept though english class > made $$$ selling writing) (wrote hit piece about teacher > department head secretly agrees with you.) And you haven’t said anything that has anything to do with the Sortinghat Chats System???
I have almost no practical skills of my own (I find it hard to even change my lightbulbs, so I sometimes pee in the dark)
You must have some very understanding roommates.
but I pride myself on my interpersonal pixie dust. I seem to cheer people up, and I like to think I have a keen eye for people. One of my favourite compliments was when a young woman told me I had an almost supernatural ability for making others feel seen.
Okay, so a very social secondary, I can work with that. Going with *not Badger* as a hypothesis, since you almost seem to get kind of a kick out of not being exactly useful.
I naturally bond groups around me wherever I go, and I notice without this sort of found family dynamic in my life (a little team/group/family) I get depressed. I have fused my entire being with my job and have become a sort of mascot/face of the business, and despite not actually being the highest ranked/most senior employee.
… and we have a Badger primary.
I wish I was gentler, but my love for my people is pesky and meddlesome and I worry some day people will tire of me. I get overly involved in people’s lives (even when they ask me not to get involved, I take that as code for “I wouldn’t want to bother you, but secretly I wish you would get involved”).
I’m everyone’s unofficial therapist. This big mouth gets me into trouble sometimes, especially when I attack the powers that be on behalf of the underdog (something I can never resist)
Oh ouch. Yeah, that is some exploded, Authoritarian Badger right there. You get involved in peoples lives when they tell you to stay out? You view yourself as a universal therapist and righteous defender of those who cannot defend themselves? You write like you’ve got all the answers, and everyone else in your life is scared, or helpless.
I once flooded a grouchy old lady’s apartment by accident (ADHD) and then when she called to scream at me, she ended up telling me her whole life story instead.
I know this is the Badger secondary in me, but did you like… help fix the apartment? Untreated water damage can lead to black mold.
And yet, I cannot keep a secret to save my life, people should not be telling me things! My mom and boss often warn me about burning bridges. I know this is true in theory, but sometimes I just get triggered.
Impulsivity is something that people with ADHD can struggle with, but I can’t link it to a specific secondary.
I was bullied and abused a lot as a child/teen, but I never believed I deserved it, only that I lacked power, so I had to dig deep and outwit my opponents. I find story arcs of clever but physically underpowered oddballs like Mulan and Tyrion very satisfying for that reason! I tend to be a bit of a con for the cause at times—I toy with people and can be a bit of a “storyteller”. My saintly double badger mom strongly disapproves of this tendency in me, and half teasing, half scolding calls me Harold Hill (The Music Man).
Snake secondary, for sure.
I have an awful petty flaw of never forgetting a slight! When the people I love/invest in betray me, I am devastated, and that disillusionment can fester into hatred under extreme circumstances. Darker still, when people cross a certain line morally, they seem to forfeit their personhood in my eyes. Gloves are off, and since I’m kind of an empath I basically have all the destruct codes to people’s souls.
That is… the dehumanizing aspect of a Badger primary in full swing, which has been a through line this whole time. The math teacher was incompetent, so it was fine to mess with her. The old lady was grouchy, so flooding her apartment wasn’t a big deal.
Some examples of my dark fuckery (if tldr, skip to final paragraph 😊):
I will cut this out, actually. There are a *lot* of revenge narratives here, some of them get pretty dark, and in my opinion… these are situations where you either went too far or shouldn’t have gotten involved in the first place. I guess they re-affirm the ‘I know best’ of the Authoritarian Badger, and the improvisational problem solving skills of the Snake secondary.
Um yes, so sorry about how long this is, every time I went to edit it down, it got longer! I understand if you don’t have the time or inclination to read, let alone analyze all this! But at least it helped me a little to write it all out. Please know I love your posts, you’re brilliant! I will lose entire days studying and obsessing over your posts. Thank you for everything!
You’re welcome. And don’t take any of this too badly. Badger primaries get Authoritarian streaks sometimes, it happens. And if you’re worried that “people will tire of you” - I will say, as someone who has known quite a few Authoritarian Badgers. I didn’t get tired of them, I got exhausted, felt condescended to, and it was an all around unpleasant experience.
Hi there! I’m a little nervous to send in this submission but I so grateful that you’re responding to people! Sorry in advance for being a bother, haha.
Burned Secondary. Calling it.
I’m a fae lion primary (freedom being the main internal compass) but I’m very confused about my secondary. I think its really burned or I’m just bad at figuring it out, because I didnt really vibe with any of the descriptions of the secondaries, whereas I took one look at the lion primary and knew that it was me pretty much instantaneously.
… doubling down on burnt secondary as a definite possibility.
I think I picked up a bird model when I was really young, though. I love learning and studying, but at some point I feel like you actually have to *do* something, and honestly find it frustrating to work with people who plan a lot.
Yeah, I don’t think you’re a Bird secondary.
In school people always assumed that I was this really academic person
Which is not the same thing as being a Bird, not even close.
but I really floundered in uni and ended up going to a program that allowed me some more freedom in dealing with issues, instead of being very by the book.
Oh excellent! You found a program that catered more to an improvisational style, love to hear it.
I think the reason I’m struggling with finding my secondary is that the bird model was what I used to get through school, and I find it hard to tell what’s underneath that sometimes. Especially as I really felt pigeonholed into being the “encyclopedia” of the friend group, even when it makes me miserable.
So it sounds like you’ve got some sort of Bird secondary *performance* that you dislike.
Every time I try to make a plan I end up going totally off-script anyways, to the point that most of my “plans” are just me saying very confidently that I totally have a plan.
I’ve noticed that in video games I tend to be the one that really likes to go hunting for alternate pathways and solutions, and I love being rewarded for being extra observant about an area or a place.
Love looking for unusual workarounds, incredibly observant and turned in to your environment? That sounds preeeetty Snake secondary.
I definitely have a bit of an obsession with exploring. But at the same time, I kind of hate using guides for stuff like that because I want to be the one to find it myself.
You’re not a Built secondary (Bird or Badger)
Part of the fun is that I dont have anyone helping me out.
I do think that freedom-loving Fae Lion primary is showing here.
One of the things I remember super fondly is the time that I was able to break into an in-game prison and then break out of it again just because I wanted to see how the game would react and what it would throw at me in the process. I was also more than willing to get in and out of the prison a few times just to see if there were any other ways to get in or out.
I think that “stir the pot just to see what will happen” is a very Snake Secondary trait.
I feel like a bad person for even saying it but I’m also scarily good at bullshitting. I’ve been told by people around me that I’m super insightful, when I’m almost always just making up as I go. I remember that one time a teacher told me I had written the most interesting interpretation of a piece of text he had seen, but in reality I was just going off of a gut feeling and a lot of “yeah, that sounds like I know what I’m talking about”.
And you didn’t vibe with the Snake secondary? Because this sounds like a Snake secondary. And there’s nothing to feel bad about, it’s just an alternate way of thinking.
… but the fact that you *DO* feel bad about it means that, yeah, it’s burnt.
I also remember that I got into a huge debate at school, and people were talking about how much of a good debater I was, but I was literally just able to sound *very* impassioned about a subject I knew nothing about. I remember having a lot of fun trying to counter what people were saying in the moment, and there was a sort of weird enjoyment in knowing that it was me that was making them agree, not the argument, if that makes any kind of sense.
Snakes don’t have to believe the mask the way Badgers do, and this is WAY too improvisational and off-the-cuff to be Actor Bird. And Lions, well. They aren’t ABLE to convincingly sound passionate about something they know nothing about.
I’ve consistently been told that I’m a shit disturber (and proud).
Your secondary might be a little burnt, but that Lion Primary is doing JUST fine.
I think my best shit disturbing moment was when I realized that a friend of mine was lying about their beliefs, and pretty much managed to corner them into a place where they couldnt *not* admit it. I kind of feel bad about it because it sounds like I was being super manipulative, but I wasnt really doing it consciously so much as I was just watching the flow of the conversation and seeing that they were about to try and hand wave it away.
I guess overall my way of dealing with new problems is to just say fuck it and let things happen the way that they need to, with the confidence that I can kind of just do what I need to in order to be successful. So to me, I feel like I’m either a snake who lost confidence in the method, or a lion that just likes arguing.
I am definitely, definitely seeing a [somewhat] Burnt Snake secondary here. And a really loud Lion Primary that colors things in a way that could definitely be confusing on your end.
Anyways, thank you so much for the help! Im so sorry that this is very stream of concious-y but I really appreciate it!
I am pretty sure I am a snake/snake sorting, with my primary (burned snake) as a rock solid certainty. I am not doing so well on figuring out how models work, and if I have them. It makes me doubt my secondary sometimes. Let me give you a few examples:
Last autumn, I was making a lot of soup from scratch. I started with recipes, but pretty soon I was just throwing things together.
Definitely sounds like an improvisational secondary.
(I'm a Badger secondary, and my baker friends make fun of me, because I treat recipes like spells I follow them so exactly. I only recently learned that the reason you put put in salt in water is to make it boil faster. I'd been doing it, but I might as well have been putting it in there to banish the bad spirits.)
But I always made sure I had some kind of home-made broth to hand, and some kind of soup magic stuff (heavy cream, milk, cream cheese, etc.)
This could be rapid-fire bird (or a rapid-fire bird model.) You feel comfortable improvising, but only because you already know a lot about soup.
I only went back to recipes when I wanted something new or specific. Then I went and posted a kind of improv instruction for soup making (take some meat, any meat, sear it and and pair with some veggies, any veggies, etc.).
So far, I'm agreeing with you. Improvisational secondary, maybe some kind of bird model to give extra structure and support.
I train new colleagues. When I start with a new group, I like to have all the prep-work done so I can concentrate on the social aspects and not get bogged down finding the right worksheets, or shit like that. I plan my first few words, and if there is no better opening, I use them and go from there. I have a general structure of what I want to teach them, what methods to use and in what order. It is adapted from experience, and the more rigid guidelines we are given by our client. I am constantly tweaking it when I'm not training. If I feel my group needs something different, I will abandon the plan, let them guide me on a detour, and bring them back when it feels right. Somehow, it still works out 95% of the time, especially now that I have found my confidence and know it works^^
This sounds exactly like how I teach. And for me, what is going on is the bird model prepwork making me comfortable enough to just vanish into my Courtier Badger. I've only recently been learning that I can... relax on the prep, a little. That sometimes too much prep gets me in my head, and sabotages me a little. Like I can just trust myself in the moment, and things work out just fine.
I have found the shc system a week ago, and I have been obsessed ever since. I got curious because a friend mentioned it. They were really into it, and I like sorting people if the system makes sense. I dug in, got hooked, and finally found words to describe everything I had figured out so painfully about myself in the last few years. Especially my snake primary was such a surprise and relief, let me tell you.
It's a good system. And it's... uniquely able to talk about certain kinds of things.
I am thinking there is at least some sort of bird model here, giving my improv some structure?
Took the words out of my mouth.
I was flirting with rapid fire bird as a secondary, but now I have put it into words, not a chance. I like my (contained) chaos too much^^
So far, I don't have too much to add. It's all very well laid out, and well understood. I do like the dramatic structure that happens when someone writes in convinced their a Lion and I start going into why they're actually a Snake but hey. This is nice. This is mellow.
Let's talk about badger secondary model instead. Just to get the elephant out of the room: I hate hard work, it feels slow, dull, and like there should be a better method somewhere. But I know that sometimes, you just have to do it if you want to build a reputation, or you know you need to rely on the goodwill of your community in the future.
This is so like... Rapid-fire bird processing Badger. Just the grudging respect of SURE badger secondary can be a useful tool I GUESS.
I feel awkward keeping shallow contact with my colleagues, I forget if they have kids, and I have been experimenting with discreetly taking notes on what they value.
This is so Bird.
It's not very successful because I can never remember them when it's necessary, so I nod and figure it out by asking "knowing seeming" questions, anyway.
This is so Snake.
What does resonate with me is the part of "becoming what they need" making myself into the tool I need, making myself seem reliable by being relatable. I mostly start a one-on-one conversation by mirroring the other person's mood.
Courtier Badger and Snake secondary can look very, very similar - especially from the outside. This right here could be a description of either.
It is only recently, and only with people I know well, that I have found the seductive power of railroading them instead. I can now cut short a friends whining by summarising what they're saying in a blunt and charming manner, and make them smile instead. Not always, but now I know it works, I use it more and more often.
... but this could only be Snake. Doing this sort of thing consciously and on purpose is so huge and so key. Courtier Badgers do have to believe it, and so they have a way of vanishing that Snake secondaries don't.
And I think I am exaggerating my "go and figure shc out, and be loud and open about it on tumblr" part, because it's what feels right at the moment, but also because the friend who got me into it is a burned lion secondary. They like me charging in, taking it for myself, and they admire anyone who can be honest and vulnerable in public.
Very Double Snake. Using a specific approach, specifically for your friend. Also you say your primary is burned... but I'm not getting burned primary from you. But you're also not really writing about your primary, so.
I guess I am making myself appealing, not just relatable like before.
What a perfect way of describing the difference between Snake and Badger secondaries.
Huh. Fading badger performance as snake gets confident? With another badger performance for work that I do grudgingly.
Performance is right. Just a shallow thing you wear over the top, that barely seems there anymore. You work like Bird, not a Badger.
Now lion. Well, lion is... difficult and easy at the same time? I have to take charge, be the boss, and make split-second, straightforward right-and-wrong decisions when I am leading my group: Call out anyone who doesn't play by the rules (though I usually don't care much if it is not annoying). Decide on, and hand out, the appropriate punishment for someone being late, again. Deal with brewing conflict in a head-on manner. But that is something I am still learning, and I am not very good at it.
Some of this is primary stuff - WHAT you do "be the boss, hand out punishments" versus HOW you do it. It's sounds to me like you're building a Lion primary model over your Snake primary, which is normal. Snakes with safe people almost always model something else. (And I already know you've got a friend that's a Lion primary... Snakes do like to match their People.)
It's possible that you're also building a Lion secondary model, or that one of your Snake secondary masks looks a little like a typical lion secondary, but my take is that most of this is coming from a primary model.
I tend to let conflicts slide, trusting they will work it out among themselves.
I feel that this speaks to the water-like nature of the Snake secondary, and a desire to always go around the problem.
or at least be professional about it and not bring it into the training. Definitely a lion performance here, and one I get frustrated with fast because I am not very good at it.
I have my lion moments, like I described with my way of being open and vulnerable about shc here on tumblr. But I wouldn't do it if it didn't feel right, or more specifically like something I need to heal and get better. I know I need to be vulnerable to heal, and it's relatively safe here, in the anonymity of my internet persona.
Hmm. Interesting. I'm not getting Lion from you... if this is a healing exercise, maybe you're practicing existing in your Neutral state?
I have to write it all out, and some of it just happen to come out as advice for other people's asks. It would be nice if I get some recognition for it in the community, and I love the fact that my friends reads it and tells me they like it.
My take on that sort of thing is going to be annoyingly Badger, so I apologize in advance. For me it's all about consistency. Lay a foundation and then build, one brick at a time.
Now that I have written it all out, I think it's probably the most snake way of arguing myself out of any secondary model I could come up with^^ I guess I don't have one, or if I do, I am dismantling it because I need things to be simple for a while. I am tempted to post this on my own blog, but I know it will get a bigger audience with you.
Yeah, no Lion secondary here.
and maybe help someone in a similar situation. So I will be patient, and I thank you for inviting us all to use you as a sounding board for our own shc issues. I have to stop going through your likes, I'm ruining my obsessive fangirl/shc vibes tumblr with beautiful rl-things and creative human interactions^^
Your blog has been enjoyable regarding the Sorting Hat Chats! I've been trying to figure out my own sorting. In terms of primary - I would rank most likely from Bird>Snake>Lion>Badger.
I do place a high level of loyalty and value for the people who I consider most important in my life like a Snake primary. I know there are some people who are more important to me than others [basically I don't have the Badger mindset]. However, I think I'm fundamentally guided by what I think makes sense and what is most logical like a Bird primary. I tend to get anxious when things aren't making sense but I work hard to dig out solutions from the madness.
Okay, that's sounding like Bird primary angst to me.
I am also focused on attaining towards an idealized world - something I have dreamt out for myself
I don't think English is your first language, so I don't want to read crazy-much into the word "ideal" - but that is something that I hear Birds talk about, the goal of an "ideal" world (at least for ourselves) that we could get to if we just made the flow charts work correctly.
basically goals that I hope to achieve some day and I take action to do my best to get there. I know ambition is mostly classified as Snake but from the way SHC defines the houses in primaries, I can honestly see any of the primaries being highly ambitious. Not sure.
Yeah, we've grown out of our parent system :)
On the whole - I see Bird or Snake being the best fit but I could be a Burned Lion given my idealism
I'm not seeing Burnt Lion. So far you've written about what *you* think and what *you* want (and that's a good thing.) Burnt Lions tend to go with ready-made external value systems. And be a lot more stressed :)
I consider my beliefs to be logical
The huge stressing of "logical" means you *like* Bird primaries at the very least. 'Logical' is associated with Birds, but it's also kind of a loaded term (because no one wants to say, "oh yes, I am Illogical.") Everyone's primary is logical... to them.
but I do follow my gut sometimes and it's often right.
The question is not 'do you follow your gut ever,' the question is 'would you still feel good about following your gut even if you weren't sure why you were feeling something.'
Secondary is tougher for me to decipher. I don't really know on this except that I think it would be cool to be a Snake secondary but not sure how likely that is for me.
So you like Snake secondaries. Very good.
I am the kind of person that works hard and is good at planning ahead for things. Badger secondary is a possibility because I am good at showing people that I am dependable/reliable particularly at work, basically the person that won't let you down.
So a Built (Bird + Badger) secondary, or a Built secondary model.
I place a lot of value on using my skills to make my way through life which seems Bird secondary. My tendency is to plan for contingencies and follow those plans to the best of my ability until it no longer makes sense.
Sounds pretty Bird.
But I also can improvise when needed and I know when something bothers me that my temptation is to act and charge which is more Lion secondary. A part of me has a belief that I am smart enough to adapt if needed but I do feel a lot more comfortable with having a detailed plan to help me with a situation rather than winging something.
Unfortunately there's not really enough for me to go on here. This could be an Improvisational secondary (and I'd go with Snake before Lion, because of the emphasis on *adaptation,* and the fact that you really like Snakes) with a Built (probably Bird) secondary model.
But this could also be a comfortable Bird secondary who is in the process of building a fun Snake model. Ultimately, that's going to be your call.
