#birdpri

[wisteria-lodge]

I make an attempt to translate Lion Primary into Bird

I don’t have anyone I know who is interested in SHC and I have a burning desire to ramble to someone about Lion primaries. Because I really just don’t understand them.

Honestly, when I look at Lions, it makes me wonder how it took me as long as I did to figure out that I was a bird primary. Because I just fundamentally… don’t. get. lion primaries. I can understand gut instinct and such but relying on that? And only that? How? Why?

I can understand snakes and badgers because it seems clear to me *what* they value and because I find certain parts of those values admirable. (Honestly, I could be modelling one or both of them. But that’s a whole other thing.)

I know there’s other birds with systems antithetical to mine, but I can at least understand how they think even if I can’t imagine coming to the same conclusion. But lions, man. Lions could be out here basing their entire lives off of just what feels right or wrong.

I mean, I get having strong beliefs/values/principles. I have some that I’m certain you couldn’t convince me to change. But I don’t get how people can have that certainty without thinking about, testing, and evaluating it. Does it spring forth from nothing? If you can’t trace why you believe something how do you know you should?

I’ve seen this in fiction - the classic cop who “always goes with their gut” jumps to mind - but I guess I always chalked this up to the same sort of “glossing over how reality works for the sake of a good story” that happens all the time in fiction. Because, surely, in real life your gut reaction is only right part of the time and it’s only because they exist in a narrative that they can be confident and have that confidence validated.

Ugh, it’s so hard to find a way to talk about my thoughts on Lion Primaries in a way that doesn’t just boil down to “but that’s the wrong way to do it!”, which I know isn’t fair. But, wait, I know it’s not fair because of things external to myself which I have taken to heart. If I was operating purely internally then I wouldn’t have a reason to change how I think about it. So if I were a lion primary then that first opinion would just be how I thought about it? I wouldn’t fix it based on what I know rather than feel? I guess? How do people live like this?

No, but seriously: do lions just develop beliefs and then just.. have them? Without evaluating whether they should have them? Only changing if their feelings change? Or am I misunderstanding something here? Because, as is probably abundantly clear, I genuinely can’t fathom doing that.

Okay. I’m going to do my best here. (Which is tricky, because like you… I’ve modeled Badger and I’ve modeled Snake, but there does really fundamentally seem to be a different Mechanism that Birds think with.) 

Clearly there are moral-absolutist-Kantian-ethics guys, who say some things are just Correct and are Always Correct because they Just Are. I absolutely do not think this way. I think this kind of worldview gets you in a lot of trouble, and causes a lot of trouble. When I say things are Right, I mean that they are Right For Me. BUT, I understand how a Lion primary could arrive at this conclusion. Sometimes, that is what it feels like. Something’s wrong and you Just Know. 

But then the next step is right, sure, so where do those morals come from? And most of those earlier moralists say - God, boom, done. Leave it at that. It’s God (or higher consciousness, or idk The Force) just beaming stuff into your head. But for one thing, that sort of implies that anyone who doesn’t think that way is like, evil, which just isn’t true. Also I’m not a moral absolutist. Also also - my gut sometimes gets it wrong. 

So what’s actually going on? Where is this information actually coming from? 

My current theory is that Birds primarily process with their conscious mind (logos, Apollonian nature, “right brain,” people have different terms.) And Lions favor their unconscious mind (pathos, Dionysian nature, “left brain.”) I could say that I think with my emotions, and that wouldn’t be wrong. My emotions clarify things for me, my *dreams* clarify things for me. And I feel more comfortable and secure in that space. 

But like, I’m a person, I live in the world, and I learn about the world though living in it. I will say that experiences, people I’ve met, and even stories mean more, and affect me more, than pure information. It sounds really bad to say, but I kind of distrust logos. I was a rules-lawyering little shit in Sunday school. They told me that I must never, ever, ever have sex before marriage. (They used the analogy of a piece of duct tape that loses its sticky after repeated uses.) But that didn’t like, mean anything? But then I saw that episode of Sex and the City (scandalous!) where Charlotte marries Trey and then realizes that they are *not* sexually compatible. And was like. Yeah. that seems like a really good reason to have sex with someone before marrying them. 

(Sex in the City did give me bad morals. They were right!) 

So that’s how I keep myself on the straight and narrow. I meet a lot of people, consume a lot of media, and I try really, really hard to get myself to see where everybody’s coming from. And doing that overwrites the bad data, the learned prejudices. That’s the idea anyway. I’ve got to constantly keep re-calibrating myself, I’ve got to keep interrogating *what* I’m feeling and *why.* Is the emotion coming from a place of love or a place of fear? (My very patient Bird girlfriend sat though my whole thing about how there are only two emotions, Love and Fear, and how sadness is Fear except when it’s Love… and basically said I’m sure that’s very nice for you. Not what it looks like in my head.) 

It might be helpful to think of Lion primary processing in terms of thin-slicing? Lions trust the split-second reasoning. I don’t know why, but something seems wrong here. I’m going to act on that now, and figure out what part was off later. 

12 Angry Men is a very Lion Badger movie (which I’m sure is why I love it so much and find it so affirming.) The hero, Juror #8 just thinks that Something Feels Wrong about this murder trial. He doesn’t know why it feels wrong, can’t quite articulate it at first. And spends the rest of the movie re-tracing his steps so he can lay it out for the other jurors, and is ultimately proved correct. 

My problem solving process is go off by myself (distinctive Lion trait) and try to get a clean read on my emotions. And if I can’t do that, then we bring out the journaling, or maybe one of my trusted people who can say, your anxiety seems to be coming from X place or Y place. There are a lot of books and movies I keep around as basically medicine, as factory resets or ways to keep an eye on what my subconscious might be up to. 

I hope that one of these examples makes sense, or pings, or makes sense to you. It *is* hard to talk about, because none of this is stuff I’m used to processing in words.

[wisteria-lodge]

bird primary (system in progress) + burnt badger secondary (really loud bird model)

Howdy! I’m still trying to figure out my own houses and was wondering if you could provide some insight. I haven’t exactly mastered the system so I don’t know how accurate/inaccurate my claims are, so bear with me.

The “why”/Primary: I am extremely motivated by knowledge. I want to know things, not just out of intrinsic curiosity (though that does play a role), but because knowing why things work helps me protect myself more effectively.

One of the trickiest things about this system is separating motivation from method. Because yeah, they are related, but they're also really different. Like this example: "I protect myself by learning things." That's a how, that's secondary stuff. (Bird secondary of course.)

A recent example is this— a group of my former friends all ditched me because I discussed a heavily stigmatized mental disorder that I show symptoms of. And my first response (other than bawling) was to ask them why. And when I got the answer, I was hurt, but I understood. I don’t say this for you to show me pity, but rather because it illustrates this model in action.

This is a really interesting example. Your friends acted in a way that emotionally hurt you. First you processed your feelings (which you talk about in a dismissive, lighthearted, jokey way) then you asked them for more information... which hurt you, but also made you more secure. This is very Bird primary. You feel feelings, but they're whatever. What actually bothers you is not having the data.

(I suspect you're going to end up being a Double Bird. And Double Birds are unique in that their morality and problem-solving are SO interconnected, that they think I'm crazy for saying that for most people, they are in fact two very different things.)

When I got the why and processed my emotions, I cut off ties and realized that their severe judgy-ness had hindered my life for 2 years. And now that I know the “why”, I won’t bring up said disorder again until I know it’s safe. It might never be, but I still have hope.

You updated your system, and you cut away the parts that aren't serving you anymore. Bird primary.

Morally-speaking, I am very sensitive to the views of others around me.

External primary.

I’m not proud of this. In fact, it’s a detriment.

A lot of Birds feel this way. It's a big part of why they tend to like Lion primaries. Lions are much more able to dismiss things with "sounds like that's a them problem."

I won’t go into details, but my parents are… bad. Not wholly, but they are bad. I’ve tried for years, and still do, to escape their opinions because I know it’ll influence mine.

Parents are sticky. They do that. I've been a happily UnBurnt Lion primary for a while now... but I still sometimes hear that voice in my head that sounds like my mother.

And, much like them, I tend to get over-passionate in what I stand for. Unlike them, I’m willing to change if evidence supports this change. I always, however, carry the burden of my former hatred. I always feel guilt over my old beliefs. Even if I’ve changed, the pain I’ve done can never be reversed. And this guilt eats me alive, this shame of being fundamentally wrong.

Okay. You got really emotional on me really quickly here. This could mean a couple things. Your parents sound like fairly toxic Idealists, either Exploded Lions or Exploded Birds (I'm sort of leaning Lion due to the more emotion-heavy words like "passion" and "hatred.") Birds can feel bad, feel guilt, feel shame when looking back at an older version of themselves that they now consider morally repugnant. (Birds are human.) Idealists struggle with the angst of worrying that they are fundamentally wrong about the world. So you could be a guilty Bird, especially if your emotions feel wrong or unhelpful somehow. But you could also be a very Burnt Lion modeling Bird - because Bird seems safer, and you don't want to be a Lion the way your parents are.

When the friend-event happened, I thought that I was in the wrong, and that I had once again fucked myself over because of my passion and sureness in what I have.

"I thought I was wrong because I was acting like an Exploded Lion primary." Yeah, I'm thinking there's some sort of outside influence here that needs to be unpacked.

It took a lot of convincing and evidence for me to see that they were the assholes (albeit I wasn’t pure either— I was their friend, after all).

I'm definitely leaning Bird for you. A bird surrounded by Lions maybe, who sometimes uses Lion terminology. But Bird.

I am a planner and system-lover at heart. I’m not proud of it, but it’s just part of me.

What's with all this negative language? Being a planner and a system-lover is a wonderful thing to be. There's some Burning here.

The caveat— I have autism, so I’m not sure if it’s due to that or not. Hence the shortness of this section. Take it as you will, regardless of if it’s evidence or not.

I have autism and I'm a Lion Badger. People are different. The only real pattern I've observed is the way nerodivergent people disproportionately build Bird secondaries as coping strategies.

Honesty is maybe not the best policy, it’s still an admirable one. I wish, frankly, that my moral system was more honest. I feel like I have no set morals. That it all comes from elsewhere. Lion primaries have this set, intrinsic morality that I envy. My friend is a lion primary, and while my views have radically changed, hers haven’t inched. She’s always been honest about herself and what she holds true.

I'm doubling down on Bird primary for you. This is the perspective of a Bird looking in on a Lion. Lion morality isn't set or intrinsic - it's built, and it changes, but it builds and changes differently than a Bird's does (more slowly, usually). But there really is a pattern of Birds seeing it as more moral/easier/better.

And I’m still trying to figure out what “truth” means to me. I mean, yes, I’m a dry and blunt asshole, but that’s not really the same as gut morality. Internal honesty is what I want, and external honesty is what I have to some extent.

It sounds that you are going though a lot of very intense shifts in your life right now. You've got a diagnosis that has you questioning your place in the world. You've followed your parent's system all you life, and are now deciding that you don't want that. But now comes deciding what you do want, and that's a lot harder (especially for a Bird, who has to build it from the ground up.) You like the way Lions do things, but Lion primaries do not feel accessible.

I’m very clear with who I like. I can admit their faults, and even get annoyed or angry at them, but not even betrayal can stop me from loving them. I’d compare myself to the Twelfth Doctor from “Doctor Who” and Ponyboy Curtis from The Outsiders in that regard.

So maybe you are building a system with very Snake values.

Loyalty is one of my weaknesses. I get overly-attached to people, and so if/when they leave me, it shatters my world. But my brand of loyalty is mostly to people, not philosophical ideas.

... but you're not *really* comfortable with Snake either, if you consider it to be a "weakness."

I would consider myself somewhat philosophical (well, as much as a fucking teenager can be)

Teenagers are *extremely* philosophical, stop being so down on yourself.

but I can be somewhat vague in my beliefs.

Because you're still building them, give yourself a *second.*

If I were to rate the likelihood of what primary I think I am, it’s something like this:

Bird: 9/10 probability (maybe burned)

Snake: 7/10 probability

Badger: 6/10 probability (maybe burned)

Lion: 2/10 probability

What is it with Birds and numbered lists?

The “how”: I feel like I change in order to fit in. I mean, to some extent, we all do, but it’s far more drastic for me. With the lion primary friend, I act as a “Jason Todd” to their Batman. I challenge them, egg them on, crack jokes and become violently passionate and act like a nerd, and she simply watches, usually adding her own comments but mostly sitting on the sidelines by choice. We also joke that I’m the Ferris Bueller to their Cameron Frye. But, with another friend, I’m a parent figure. I listen most of the time, and sometimes jump in with creative ideas and we talk for hours about it.

I'm guessing Actor Bird, both because you can specifically list out the qualities that you "act" out. And because you're invoking and basing your performance off specific [fictional] characters. Which is a HUGE Actor Bird thing.

I go with the flow of a given situation as best as I can (with the added caveat of being autistic, because that does affect how well I can read a room). However, that’s where the adaptation ends.

Huh. I'm hearing Burnt secondary language here. "I'd like to go with the flow and read the room - but I can't, because I'm autistic." You can definitely *learn* how to read a room. Why do you think I'm so interested in (and good at :) personality systems? This is how I learned to use my Courtier Badger. I used to model Bird secondary like crazy, and I kind of don't bother anymore. I don't need the training wheels.

Planning: like I stated before, I’m a planner. I try to learn the most about a situation before jumping in. Sometimes, however, I stall the inevitable and miss my chance, so I jump in and wind up nearly drowning. And this dichotomy repeats. I overcompensate for a lack of knowledge in a situation by micromanaging, or I wind up sitting bored when I’ve already done everything I need to do. And yes, stress and boredom are equally as destructive for me. I try so hard to plan to avoid both of these outcomes, but it only works half the time. So, I guess I’m a bit of a “planster” overall.

I want to learn about a situation... but sometimes I "stall" or "drown" (Burnt language.) But planning also leads to "micromanaging" and "getting bored" (model language.) I think you've got a really loud Bird secondary model... but there might be something else underneath.

Collecting things is fun. Postcards, candles, lighters, crystals, rocks, 1940s hats, knowledge, stories, music, (original) characters, the list goes on. I’m a collector of whatever I can get my hands on. Hell, by this point, I can’t tell what’s my special interest and what I just enjoy (again, autism).

Oh my goodness gracious 'my special interest' and 'what I enjoy' are not two different categories!

But my systems and collections are my coping.

Figured.

I can’t say, though, that they hold any weight outside of emotional release. There’s nothing practical about knowing how they shot The Outsiders movie, or how crows have a flat tail and ravens have two main sections on theirs. All of this knowledge almost feels useless to me. I mean, sure, I’m great at school, but what else? Nothing, it seems like. And being good at school and nothing else makes a person go crazy when they can’t achieve their academic goals. But that’s a bit besides the point— I’m a collector, but I’m unsure how well this really fits into a secondary beyond a model.

Bird secondary model.

I invest in others more than I care to admit.

Oh man, are you a Badger secondary like me?

I genuinely believe in the goodness in humans, no matter how impossible it becomes. Even those who I don’t see any good in aren’t wholly evil. My perception isn’t law.

^ That's primary stuff. Maybe a more Badger-flavored system is going to work better for you than a Snake-flavored one.

But some people trust me: with their secrets, with homework, with relationship issues, with their religious struggles. And I try to help. I might not be good with it, but I do try to help as best I can.

Kinda sounds like a Badger secondary.

I use my planning and my categorizing skills and my knowledge to benefit others. I show up, I do what I need to do, and I don’t usually expect much to come of it. It’s nice when something does, but it’s not expected. And sometimes, these investments into others' lives and grades and relationships do pay off. I make friends. Those friends stick by me, and I trust them. I continue to invest in others, because I am a lover even though I’m cynical.

I think you're a Badger secondary.

And when that trust is broken, like the example in the beginning, I go to people who won’t abandon me to get a second opinion. When I say that I love someone, I mean it. So it hurts when they leave. It always does.

Oh that's your friends leaving hit you so hard. It's not an abstract morality thing at all, it's practical. You're a Badger secondary, and they were your base of support.

I’ll be frank on this— I’m almost entirely sure that I’m not a lion secondary. I’m fiercely efficient and some people see me as a good leader, but that’s it.

Lion and Badger are the two Inspirational secondaries. They're the one who sort of manage to collect armies or families as a side effect of existing.

Even with the leader example, I prefer interpersonal relations or to be alone. I’m not a big fan of group settings.

That's fair. I am also a Badger who really, really likes my own company. Or small groups of interesting people.

If I were to rate the likelihood of what secondary I am, it’s like this:

Bird: 7/10 probability

Badger: 6/10 probability

Snake: 5/10 probability

Lion: 0/10 probability

Other systems for comparison: I’m aware that MBTI and enneagram are, at worst, pseudo-science, but I still enjoy them regardless. At best, they’re fun self-help tools, and that’s how I try to use them.

MBTI: INTJ (Ni-Te-Fi-Se)

Enneagram: 5w4, tritype 514

Sagittarius sun libra moon cancer rising in astrology

FLEV or LFEV in attitudinal psyche

sx/sp (sexual and self-preservation) in instinctual variants

MBTI, Enneagram, and astrology are all fun in their own ways. (I don't actually know the last two!) And I can talk about them on their own terms. But this system was the best, and the most useful, when I went looking for words to describe myself.

I hope this is enough information, and thank you again if you do happen to do this! If you don’t, that’s totally okay. Have a good day!

Thank you for writing in. That was a journey! Thanks @thesketchykid for the submission.

[wisteria-lodge]

exploded bird primary (lion system → burnt badger system) + lion secondary (bird model)

Hello, you have a really interesting blog! It’s fascinating to read the process of you sorting someone. I was wondering if you could help me find my sorting.

I don’t know my primary OR my secondary. They might be burnt, but I think this is mostly a result of me overthinking and being shite with self-analysis. Which is a horrible combination.

I’ve found my best work is usually the result of me taking what someone else has done, ripping it apart, adding or removing parts as needed (usually all of them) and then making a cohesive Thing out of it. It’s how I’ve made projects, stories, art, etc.

What an interesting thing to say. Wanting something to start with something which you can then respond to is making me think Improvisational secondary. Snake or Lion?

The process of picking apart someone’s work/advice gives me an idea of what I want to make. Which is why I usually end up doing my work at the last minute, by begging everyone else for their work.

Oooh we’re leveraging the community. So a social secondary like Snake is still very possible, especially with that description of pulling something together last minute using pieces. Very improvisational. But I’m wondering if there’s going to be any Badger in your sorting. Maybe as a primary.

It’s also how I treat advice and suggestion (which annoys my sister a lot, heh). I listen to someone’s suggestions on how to act or react to some problem, and then decide what I want to do. It’s like I need a base to completely disregard. A signpost which tells me, ‘Going left looks like a decent idea’ so that I can decide for myself to go whether to go right or centre. The metaphor is somewhat nonsensical but it’s the best I’ve right now.

So I could read this as just being contrary (rebelling to rebel), or maybe being in a situation where you need to utilize negative indicators. It could be a way to bootstrap a Lion primary - get some outside advice, then see if you emotionally respond positively or negatively. But the fact that you depend so much on your community when deciding what to do makes me think an external primary - Badger or Bird.

Making a plan makes me feel secure, because ‘Finally! A direction to move in.’ However, I’ve never been able to follow any of the plans I have. I usually end up just doing stuff at the last minute when I can’t worry about other things. You know, when my head is too full with an overwhelming sense of ‘I have to do this right now!’ to get distracted. The plan’s just to get me started.

Oh this is executive dysfunction stuff. And not to armchair diagnose, which is super not ethical… but a LOT of neurodivergent people write into me, and a LOT of them have helpful bird secondary models that function as toys/coping techniques.

My go-to method for solving people-problems is to think of the things I want to get across, psyche myself up for the confrontation and just barge on with it. Just, do it. Yeet myself into the tense and undesirable situation and we’ll see what happens. It’s the only good method. The other two are ‘pretend this problem doesn’t exist’ and ‘ignore that person/those people forever’.

Super DUPER Lion secondary. There are two choices 1) Charge at the problem, see what happens 2) Do nothing.

It’s easy for me to fake my investment in things. I got into the Environment Club recently, and in the application form I remember writing about oil spills in a way that made it seem as though it was an issue I’ve been passionate about for a long time. It had only come to my attention when ‘Ocean on Fire in Mexican Waters’ became a headline. I was very proud of that one. While I won’t fake an opinion, I can and will control how passionate I appear about a thing. I am rather proud of this.

Still Lion. That is how Lions face-change - they can raise or lower their intensity.

Secondaries are easy to understand for me. The idea that there is a way of doing things that comes naturally to me is fairly plausible. Primaries on the other hand….they are murky as fuck for me. I always end up getting in tangles over it.

On one hand, it’s natural for a person to prioritise their loved ones and the issues that affect their people over other issues. On the other hand, this is the sort of mindset that stops us from caring about issues beyond our tiny sphere. The sort of things that makes us indifferent towards the suffering of those who are not a part of your group or one of your people. What is the correct mode of action here?

The way this is phrased, and even the way it’s framed as a search for the “correct” answer is already very Bird. I’m going to keep on using Sartre’s Loyalist vs Idealist example because it’s such a good one, but philosophers and moralists have been debating “objectively correct” morality for… a long time now.

Obviously, we can’t spend all our time caring about causes that don’t affect us. Not only will it make us laughing-stock it is also a foolish idea. A person’s priority, in my opinion, ought to be bettering their life and helping alleviate the problems that plague them and the people around them. Of course, it is every person’s right to choose what to care about, and to find what works for them, but in my opinion starting with what’s around will show maximum results and well, it just feels more right.

I think we have a Bird primary with a Badger-flavored system.

When I have to make an opinion, I first try to see if it’s something I can avoid. Seriously, having an opinion is so difficult. Socialising is easier than forming an opinion.

Oh ouch. I think it’s very possible that your bird might be a little bit… burnt. Or exploded. Specifically the frozen Chidi-style Exploded Bird, because how can you do *anything* if you don’t know *for sure* it’s objectively right.

I don’t have to make many moral decisions in my daily life, most of us don’t. I try to avoid passing judgements on topics I don’t know about or ones that appear too morally grey.

Primaries aren’t just about moral decisions. They’re also about things that you, you know. Want. The things that get you out of bed in the morning.

As a kid, I used to make snap judgments all the time and incessantly defend them in the face of opposition, but now it just feels foolhardy to do.

That’s definitely your stubborn Lion secondary combining with an Idealist primary. Immature Glory Hound Lion or Black-and-White Bird.

Not to mention having to change my opinion after realising that I made a mistake (which happens often) is really fucking embarrassing, even if it’s something I’m doing in private.

I mean, no one LIKES being wrong. But the choice of the word “embarrassing” is skewing me more Bird. I’d expect a Lion to say something like making a mistake is “miserable” or “stressful” or “disorientating.”

And not changing my opinion when confronted with new information makes me feel pathetic.

Yeah. Bird.

 There’s also the reality of ever pervasive fake news and showing + wording things in a light favourable to the people funding the news. I have zero trust in any of the media outlets I have around me (paranoia ftw!).

We have an Exploded Bird. No wonder you don’t like having opinions on things. You’ve cut off your ability to take in new information.

The same goes for what other people tell me, including my family. While I want to believe them (my family), they’re dead wrong about something I believe in with all my heart. So, what’s to say that they couldn’t be wrong about other things too?

Nobody can be right all the time. It sucks.

I love my family, and I’ll love them even if they disown me once I come out (I’m bisexual and they’re queerphobic).

I think it must be really, really brutal to have a loud lion secondary and also have to stay in the closet for an extended period of time.

As long as their mistreatment will be limited to throwing me out of the family, I won’t stop caring about them. They’re my family. They would have to become pretty terrible people for me to cut off ties with them.

So you’ve basically given me a set-up where you don’t feel able to have an opinion on anything, apart from a sort of generalized Badger worldview, and then you hit me with something as intensely loyalist as this? Is there a really Burnt Badger (or even really burnt Snake) underneath the Bird? Or is this a Loyalist talking point/model that you’ve picked up somewhere? Or is your Badger system just like, super intense? (also, is it just me, but have you kicked yourself out of your own system?)

This attitude was the one I used to have with my friends. Until I realised that friendship doesn’t work out for me for some reason. I’m simply grateful for company now. I only show people the degree of care that I feel they will reciprocate. I don’t want to be taken advantage of by people whom I choose to become close to.

This is sounding intensely Burnt Badger? Like you want a community, but communities don’t feel safe.

A lot of Shonen anime at an impressionable age has left me with high standards for friendships.

… or maybe you’ve got Prince Charming Syndrome, only with friendships.

If one of my family did or said something that I disagreed with and which granted them public condemnation, would I stand by them or condemn them? I would do both. I wouldn’t pretend to agree with what they said (doing that would make me feel horrible) but I would stand by them.

Lion secondary. Some kind of Loyalist *something* primary.

I will never lie about my opinions. I don’t care what punishment I get. I’ll either make it really obvious that I don’t agree with the majority opinion, make myself scarce or just outright argue about it.

… because you’re a Lion secondary.

I can’t lie without feeling guilty. It’s a hassle really, but what can one do? I’ve settled on becoming more authentic and truthful. I don’t want to hurt people with my actions or words. Apparently, I need to show my anger (per my therapist) but how can I do that without crossing any lines? Without making people feel bad?

You’ve probably heard this from your therapist, but sometimes people are just going to find you unpleasant. It’s inevitable, and it’s ultimately not that big of a deal. In the end, everybody is responsible for their *own* emotional well-being.

What if I was wrong for no reason?

… and there’s that exploded Bird primary coming back.

If something has hurt me, I do my level best to never do it to other people. Basically, ‘not hurting others’ is a pretty big rule in my book. It’s one I’ll bend sometimes, but not without reason. After all, a rule that doesn’t have exceptions is either something really obvious (‘no murder’) or something incredibly vague (‘always do good things’).

bird bird bird bird bird

As a kid, I was really power/fame-hungry. Now, I just want to feel secure, without second-guessing myself and my actions. Massive priority shift. Kid me didn’t really think about stuff beyond wanting to be the most powerful person on Earth. I wish I could go back to that.

… do you really though? :) But it is interesting that young you sounds so much like a Glory Hound Lion. I wonder if your Badger-flavored system used to be a lot more Lion-flavored, or if this is maybe a side effect of having a really loud Lion secondary.

I wish I could do things that have a tangible effect on the state of affairs. I wish I could hand-wave the world’s problems away. I wish, at the very least, I had a book telling me what to do, and I how to do it.

THE BOOK FANTASY. You are like the fifth person who has written in with “I wish I had a book that told me what to do.” It’s always in exactly those words too. This seems to be a VERY common Bird primary fantasy.

Although on second thought, I would probably read the book and cherry-pick advice that makes sense to me. And that’s if I even believed the book in the first-place.

… and then the Exploded element of your Bird kicks in.

……..So, I suppose that’s about it. It feels like it’s all over the place, and at more than one place I’ve tmi’d while at the same time not giving enough information. Sigh. I hope though, that it’s enough to sort me with. I would be grateful if you would do so. Either way, thank you for taking the time to read this.

Hmmm. Well, your secondary is pretty straightforward. Lion, with a Bird model. And at the moment your Lion is pretty stressed out, because you’re in an environment where you do not feel able to be truthful and authentic. Primary is harder. Bird for sure, and I think you had a Lion-looking system when you were younger, which you sort of miss. Because at the moment… you’ve put together like a *Burnt Badger* system? Like, community is the ultimate good, but also impossible for you, personally? Trusting the community is impossible, to the degree that even trusting any *information* that gets to you is also impossible? Sorry friend. That sounds brutal. I’m glad you’re taking care of yourself, and I hope you find a better community soon.

[wisteria-lodge]

exploded bird + lion secondary (badger model)

Good afternoon Wisteria! I was hoping for your input with my sorting. This MAY become a novel, and i apologize ahead of time for that. Hopefully its interesting, if nothing else.

I am having trouble with both my primary and secondary. Ive thought i had it figured out so many times and then i would reanalyze myself and get confused. So i guess ill start with primaries. I can tell you for sure that i am not a snake primary. I just cant love another person quite like that. I grew up in a very snake primary environment and never felt i really fit in. I really appreciate snakes and i understand them, but i dont think i am one. I also very much pride myself on my individuality and dont bond to groups so i believe that may rule out badger. I think ive narrowed it down to exploded bird or really confused lion.

Interesting. So far so good. Let’s hear what you’ve got.

Right now in life, with all the information coming at me, all the data, all of the twists and turns, media bias, conspiracy theories, rabbit holes and objective realities, i cant figure out the truth.

… sounds like an Exploded Bird to me.

I think all theories are worth investigating and rabbit holes are fun. But i hate hypocrisy. And its everywhere.

I mean, everyone hates hypocrisy… but I think Birds find it *unforgivable.*

I cant organize all of this information.

Exploded Bird.

Dude. Whats gonna happen if deep fake becomes the norm?

eh, Photoshop has been the norm for a long time and we do okay. Some fakes have always been better than others, and there have always been fakes.

I feel like the safest thing to do is to fully understand myself. Then i can analyze and understand the world.

I would agree with that.

I would say that hands down i was an exploded bird, but i feel very strongly about things right away. But then i learn about them more and if my feelings were wrong, ok. Whatever.

This is still Bird. It’s not that Birds can’t feel strongly about things right away. They do, they just don’t feel safe TRUSTING those feelings. Instead they do… exactly what you’re describing here. Learn more, and then if it turns out their initial feelings were wrong… that’s fine, actually. The feelings are of secondary importance.

BUT i also WANT black and white. I want right and wrong. Grey, though necessary and true, bugs me.

… there’s a reason why I call young Birds Black-and-White Birds.

Deep down i crave to just understand something as it is. But one persons truth is not anothers. I get that. But it still bothers me in my bones.

That’s a very Bird primary angst. Birds can have this *fantasy* that if only everyone had all the information and thought it though properly, that everyone would come to the same (correct) conclusion. And then have to grapple with the fallout when they realize things don’t work that way. As a Lion… I’ve never had to fight that particular monster.

I can also seem like i make snap decisions based on feelings to others, but i just know what i want. If something sounds good, i want to do it. At that moment. No hesitation… i think im meshing into secondary territory here

I agree. Improvisational secondary, sounds like.

so ill just go with it. So my bedroom walls are lilac purple and my kitchen is BRIGHT yellow, because those colors sounded interesting. At that moment. I tend to jump into a project having no idea what im doing. I just thought it sounded like fun.

Comfortable making decisions on a whim, just jumping in. Very improvisational.

But thats not really a way to problem solve. When i start said project and then run into a problem, usually ill read about it, or ask someone who knows more than me. The “i know a guy” bird kind of applies here. I know how to make connections within my community and i plan for that. I think about who would be useful to know, based on my goals.

You know, this could be Bird. But I’m kind of skewing more Badger because of the emphasis on community and asking for help. And keeping an eye on ‘who is powerful, who is useful to know’ is a pretty common Badger secondary model manifestation.

But i dont think i build tools like a bird. In fact, binge watching videos on how to do something annoys me. Takes all the fun out of it.

I still think you’re an Improvisational secondary - and a Badger secondary model is *more* likely than a Bird secondary model.

I am always honest with people and i like that about me, but its not out of some need to stay true to myself. Its just because i have learned that honesty works the best most of the time.

So not Lion *primary* then. This is all about method. You don’t lie, because you don’t find it to be a very practical problem-solving method. Being very direct does work, so at this point… Lion is more likely than snake.

Now, dont get me wrong, i am an excellent liar. But only if its on the fly.

Hmm. Maybe a Snake who’s in neutral all the time?

This conflicts big time with my primary, however, so i rarely ever do.

Interesting. Lying conflicts with your (hypocrisy hating) Bird primary, so you don’t do it. Instead you are very direct, and that works well for you. You *can* lie (on the fly) but you generally don’t. Neutral Snake? Snake secondary model? Depending on how you define lying, could even be Courtier Badger. (I am ruling out constructed Actor Bird.)

I feel like ive gone all over the place in a highly disorganized way, so i will state that now i am going to give some anecdotal data. One time, as an adult, i was hanging out with a bunch of kids on a hayride. A little boy killed a butterfly. I was outraged. I called him out. I told him that he just took away the only life that creature would ever have and that was cruel.

Very loud Idealist primary.

This somehow turned into a question and answer school session about human biology, mammals and why on earth is water in a cup clear, but when you dive into the ocean, its blue?

Some kind of social secondary… and I know the obvious thing is to say 'trotting out a lot of facts, that’s bird.’ But I’m seeing you defuse a situation by leveraging your immediate community (Q&A session)? Badger.

I like being the person that gets the scary bugs out of the house because i feel brave when i do.

Sounds pretty Lion secondary.

When in an emergency situation i completely disconnect and become a calm, knowledgeable person.

This is actually a pretty common just, human thing. When things get bad enough, your lizard brain takes over, and everything is very calm and dreamlike.

I suddenly magically know what needs to be done and work with my environment.

Improvisational secondary.

Im also very aware of how everyone else is doing in that situation and i have an innate need to make people feel better so im usually the first to lighten the mood. Ill focus on others before myself if im hurt. Im more aware of how they are doing than how i am doing and i will make an effort to help them first.

Ah yes, the 'tend and befriend’ threat response. Very familiar. And yeah, going from this description I’m going to say very social badger.

In video games… skyrim is best here i think. I want to be a sneaky mage thief. But when something attacks me, without thinking i run right up to it and hit it with my fists without armor.

lol lion. (The classic Badger secondary strategy is BUFF ARMOR. I always play tanks.)

But i get really sad if its an animal.Those wolf whimpers get to me every time.

No one likes the wolf whimpers.

Ok. Ok. Ive rambled enough. Thank you for reading! Any input is greatly appreciated! Thank you!

Exploded Bird, easy. And probably a Lion secondary with a very social Badger secondary model that’s working well for you.

[wisteria-lodge]

bird primary shifting from a snake to a badger system + snake secondary? (badger model)

Hello, you have a really informative and interesting blog! I was wondering if you could help me find my sorting.

I'm mostly settled on being a Snake Primary. I had a tiered list as a kid of my friends based on who I preferred and I was really happy about it, showing it off like a fool, I only deeply care about what my 'favourites' think of me, and I love putting my 'favourites' in front of myself and tend to sacrifice a lot of my time, resources etc. on them and it doesn't feel like too much but more of my duty as a friend (/partner in the past).

That sounds pretty Snake.

However, because of the moral system I've kind of adopted (karma)

but sounds like you might be wearing Bird over the top?

I'm not sure if I would blatantly hurt someone outside my favourites just for the benefit of myself and my favourites. It goes against my morals and when I see others doing that, it gives me a weird/bad feeling.

You’re falling into the Extreme Hypothetical trap here, which is never super useful when it comes to sorting. Stuff like “would I kill someone, no questions asked, if one of my people asked me” is just... too big. It incorporates too much, and you can’t use it to get a clean sample.

I would, in the past, however, stay away from things/not participate in things that might hurt me or my favourites even if doing the thing would benefit many people. It sounds bad saying that though, and I'm slightly reconsidering this perspective as other facets in my perspective changes.

Hmmm. I’m very interested in the way you stress that you felt this way in the past. Because that’s very much the sign of of a Bird. It sounds like you acted in a Snake sort of way but... are now guilty about it.

I believe in unconditional love and I'm trying to integrate that into my actions.

That’s too general, and could apply to any primary.

I relate to Bird Primary, the way they view their old selves as different people, as I see my morality shift ever-so-slightly or all at once. But I think I might throw it all away if I was hurt too much, which I had been in the past and thus I had discarded some parts of my worldview and then adopted them back when I got another perspective.

That is... just a description of a Bird. That’s what a Bird does.

I remember thinking to myself as a kid, "If only there was a book that told me what to do all the time." This might point to Bird Secondary though I'm really not sure.

Good lord. That is the most bird primary thing I have ever heard in my entire life.

I relate to Lion Primary in the sense that I value freedom and kindness

... which only relates back to Lion primary in an incidental sort of way.

but idk about sacrificing everything just to attain a goal, it sounds good and real and nice but I'm not sure if I'd be the best person or even willing.

you’re falling into Extreme Hypotheticals again. “If killing my grandma would cure cancer, would I do it?”

I relate to Badger Primary in the sense that I love being liked and accepted in a group of people. It doesn't give me the same happiness as being loved by one or a few very deeply, but it helped me scrape through in a period of my life and I still crave it sometimes.

That’s just human stuff. All humans love being liked and accepted, and loved very deeply. The question is, is that where your motivation and your morality comes from, and so far... I don’t think it is. I think you’re a Bird primary whose system used to look very Snake but... not so much anymore.

As for my Secondary, I've got a feeling that it's burned. When I was a kid, I would kind of find loopholes and lied and all that to get what I want, but I realised a few years ago that it isn't the best way to do things and all that caused a lot of issues that I needed to work through for a very long period of time.

That conscious, deliberate realization is very Bird primary. For secondary... I guess this is pretty stereotypical young Snake?

I love staying true to myself and being authentic and I dislike people who aren't that way. With my friends and family it's more of like a scale of how much truthfulness I want and how much I can afford to hurt them. I don't usually think much about this until someone points out my inconsistencies and then I feel ashamed.

Hmm. You have an interesting sort of relationship with “authenticity” if you have variable presentations with different people, but don’t *notice* unless it’s pointed out to you (and then you feel bad about it.) Your language here is very Lion secondary, but I don’t know. This could mean a couple things depending on how you define “authenticity.” You could be a Burnt Lion secondary. But you could also be like... a Snake secondary who naturally face-changes, but thinks “lying” and “finding loopholes” and being “inconsistent” is morally wrong and therefore just... likes Lion secondaries.

Ironically, I also like acting polite, nice and kind to people I don't necessarily like, for example at work, just so we can get stuff done happily as I'm big on peacekeeping. I like being authentic, but maybe I felt I couldn't be that way since people wouldn't accept that and so I kind of acted as someone I wasn't to keep the peace.

This could be Snake, Actor Bird, Courtier Badger... I am interested in the emphasis on “peacekeeping” though, because that’s very Badger primary. You know, I’m going to pull back the thing you said earlier about wanting to incorporate “unconditional love” into your actions. I think you’re a Bird primary whose system *used* to look very Snake, and is now shifting to look more Badger. I think that’s what’s going on.

I try not to do anything at all if I'm not sure how to act in situations, feeling there's always a Right way of doing things.

BIRD. PRIMARY.

This makes me feel incompetent a lot of the time and I try to hide it by looking stoic and serious and someone who achieves things.

Bookkeeper Badger model?

I've also adopted a Badger Secondary model to make people like me more but it kinda burned.

Bookkeeper Badger model.

Anyways, this was a lot but I hope you could help me figure something out of this? Thanks a bunch in advance!

:)

[wisteria-lodge]

My primary is a total mess. How can I tell if I'm a Burned Lion modeling Exploded Bird or an Exploded Bird trying to model Lion? Or just a Bird with anxiety? My secondary is Bird, I think. I keep trying to use both Bird and Lion but everything is so stressful, nothing gives me a "good feeling" like a Lion would have and I just keep overthinking and going in circles whenever I have to make a decision. But there are times I have no problem ignoring my gut, like when it was telling me not to get the vaccine and I was like "Umm no that's dumb" and went and got it. Looking at my childhood doesn't help much because I've been having these problems since middle school. I do remember believing weird stuff like that if I put a marble in a locked box that no one would tell my secret. That seems kind of odd and Birdy? IDK. I feel like I can shift into any of the primaries and just decide to act like them so I keep going in circles with my sorting.

Stop. Breathe. It's okay.

Of the two primary scenarios you gave me, one is WAY more likely than the other. I suppose it might be POSSIBLE to be a Burned Lion modeling that kind of Exploded Bird... but just, incredibly unlikely. Burned Lions latch on to external systems/other people who Have It Figured Out. So a lot of the time, their external replacement morality gets really... simplistic. They definitely don't start doing the "there is too much data" Exploded Bird stuff. Exploded Bird in general feels extremely weird to Lions, even burnt ones.

But. Exploded Birds try to model Lion all the time. That is SUPER common. Exploded Birds romanticize and idealize Lions, because Lion primary seems extremely easy to them. "Kind of magical" and "like a jedi" are phrases that come up. Also, this ~

"I just keep overthinking and going in circles whenever I have to make a decision....I have no problem ignoring my gut, like when it was telling me not to get the vaccine and I was like "Umm no that's dumb" and went and got it."

is just a description of a Bird primary. Not sure what to make of the superstitious marble box thing. Haven't really thought about, or seen anything about, the way that superstitions interact with sorting.

Also? People?

GET.

YOUR.

VACCINES.

[wisteria-lodge]

bird primary? + burnt lion secondary (snake model) (built model)

Uh, can you please help me identify my secondary?

So, I get scared and nervous easily, and procrastinate endlessly.

Okay, we’ve got some anxiety and some executive functioning stuff here, which might be getting in the way of you using your secondary.

Charging is hard for me to do. Evading isn’t, but I don’t think I enjoy it. Sure, there are times when I feel like some mastermind, watching as the chips fall where I want them to/where I predicted they would, but it’s more of an intellectual satisfaction than an emotional one. I don’t come out of it feeling good about myself.

Sounds like a Snake secondary model (you can use that skillset, but it doesn’t feel good.) Interesting.

Lying comes easy to me. It’s like a well-worn instrument in my hand. I know how to use it, I know what I’ll get out of it.

Conceptualizing this particular skill as a *tool* is kinda making me think… Bird? (The Snake is definitely a model)

Using it correctly means avoiding confrontations, messing it up means lowering my trustworthiness in the eyes of others. (Which I don’t want to have happen, but I’ve no idea what else to do.)

Whatever secondary you’ve got underneath the Snake seems a little burned. ‘I don’t want to solve problems the way I have been, but I just don’t see any other options.’

I naturally used to act differently in front of different people, but over the years I just.. stopped that. I’m still not sure why.

That could mean that you used to have a more performance-based secondary (Courtier Badger, Actor Bird) that burned, and so now you don’t use it anymore. OR it could mean that at one point you had a model that you have since dropped.

I also used to be the “we’re not so different, you and I” type of guy except I stopped doing that too,

I’m not sure exactly what you mean by that. “We’re not so different, you and I” is a stock villain phrase, and we already know that you conceive of your Snake model as sort of villainous (using words like ‘mastermind’ and ‘lying.’)

BUT “we’re not so different, you and I” is just… a way of describing how Courtier Badgers work. You find the common ground, and you live there.

and now social interactions are just a lot of floundering around for me. A whole lot of Awkward.

Either way, you’re a little burnt. You don’t believe you’re good at the social stuff.

In my life, there have been super-specific instances when I got into an argument on one of my ’good days’, and I was able to retort and stand my ground

Lion secondary?

without feeling scared of offending the other person.

… or maybe not. Lions, especially when they’re in righteous argument mode, just do not care about offending the other person. The other person can deal. That *specific* worry is more like… Badger or Bird, because they construct themselves around other people.

I felt really good about myself, like I knew where I stood, and why I was standing there.

That’s a primary thing. I’d love to know what your primary is (based on this, it’s probably Idealist.) That would make this a lot easier, because the language used to discuss Lion primaries and secondaries is very similar, and you can get false positives.

It was a mix of security and surety that came from knowing why I believed what I believed

Oh. Bird primary.

combined with the confidence and drive to stand my ground regardless of how much the other person got pissed.

There we go. Lion secondary.

[However, there are also times when I get into the flow of whatever work I’m doing, and just doing the work brings me immense joy. Which could be a Badger Sec trait or a Human trait, not quite sure.]

I’m inclined to say that’s just human :)

Most of what I said sounds kind of Lion-y, except I feel really intimidated and irritated by Lions. More than once I’ve shouted “THERE’S AN EASY WAY OUT, JUST CHOOSE THAT, YOU HONOURABLE GIT!” at the TV screen.

If you’re Burnt, it’s really REALLY common to look at the UnBurnt guys and think they’re stupid, naive, annoying, or childish.

annoyed at yet reluctantly admiring of the Lion secondary I was viewing

… but are kind of drawn to them anyway.

I suspect my sister is a Lion, but even if I love her to bits I can’t stand her constant need for honesty. Besides, it’s hypocritical of her to demand honesty when she’s spoken lies herself.

I suspect that this is a Primary mismatch. It’s totally possible that from her point of view, she *was* being honest. But Birds, and especially Bird Lions, are really really bothered by any kind of word/action mismatch.

Whatever we say gets distorted in the end, both because of our limitations as speakers and the listener’s biases.

That’s a very Bird primary anxiety.

I would rather my lies get distorted and misinterpreted than my truths. At least those don’t matter to me.

That’s a very… burnt Lion secondary thing to say. You want to put your truth out there, but you fundamentally don’t believe you can.

[If I had to choose, I would say my favourites are Bird secondaries. They’re so simple and efficient, and so uncomplicated (which I mean in the best possible way).]

Burnt Lion secondary, Snake secondary model for sure. And *probably* some sort of Built secondary model that you like using more than the Snake, which kicks in during more solo situations where your very social Snake isn’t appropriate.

[wisteria-lodge]

Hey, Exploded Bird/Lion Sec anon here! Thank you so, so much for sorting me. It’s helped a LOT.

I was having a shite time with understanding myself, trying to get why kid!me and current!me seem like such different people. The part about a Lion system changing to a (Burnt) Badger one? That explains So Much.

You know, I was filled with so much joy when I read this though, looking back at my life and seeing it through the lens of my Sorting, and suddenly everything’s so clear. I love the feeling of understanding after months of frustration.

And IDK why I didn’t consider Exploded Bird earlier, I went back and read the description and damn if it doesn’t fit me to a T. I think, the first time I read it I was too repulsed by the other type of Exploded Bird (conspiracy theorist) and just, having a mini crisis as I parsed through all my decisions and convictions to confirm that I wasn’t one. They make me super uncomfortable.

Lion Sec is obvious in hindsight, but they’ve always seemed too powerful and confident for me. I really do feel stifled in my current situation, unable to be truthful without the atmosphere at home becoming unbearable. Being bullied in the past hasn’t exactly helped either, I hate keeping my head down but there are times when I feel like it’s the only choice. I am trying to become bolder so that I may, one day, live unapologetically.

After I sent that Sort Me post, I had started changing my values to more Lion ones. But I really do like Badger morals, so I think I’ll instead focus on unburning that. And after that’s done, try to find a way to mend that exploded Bird Pri.

Also, sidenote, I read about Bird Lions becoming temporarily catatonic after their entire worldview being shaken, and damn if that wasn’t me after my sister told me about the Brain in a Vat theory. Bit extreme, but I spent  m o n t h s  trying to recover. Currently, I have a love/hate relationship with Philosophy.

Thanks for the lovely note, Bird Lion. It helps putting words to this stuff, and I love that I could help with that a little. I like your plan. It’s a good plan. And you’re right, Exploded Birds *are* tricky. Exploded Lions have a very distinct *look* to them, and so do Exploded Badgers etc. But Exploded Birds can make themselves nuts taking in all the information - or none of the information - and that looks very different from the conspiracy theorist type who has picked only *one* source to trust.

So good luck, good luck with everything.