#telegony

[a-v-j]

I had a thought one day

I like antinous' determination to secure the throne, good for him /silly

[blue-lotus333]

Achilles is trans,

Patroclus is trans

Agamemnon is trans

Menelaus is trans

Odysseus is trans

Diomedes is trans

Hector is trans

Paris is trans

Cassandra is trans

Helen is trans

Penelope is trans

Andromache is trans

Idomeneus is trans

Greater Ajax is trans

Lesser Ajax is trans

Hecuba is trans

Priam is trans

Aeneas is trans

Memnon is trans

Machaon is trans

Palamedes is trans

penthesilea is trans

Teucer is trans

Clytemnestra is trans

Orestes is trans

Electra is trans

Iphigenia is trans

Sarpedon is trans

Glaucus is trans

Polyxena is trans

Helenus is trans

Telemachus is trans

Neoptolemus is trans

Philoctetes is trans

Briseis is trans

Chryseis is trans

Tecmessa is trans

Hermione is trans

Peisistratus is trans

Antilochus is trans

Deidamia is trans

Troilus is trans

Telegonus is trans

Sthenelus is trans

Deiphobus is trans

Polydamas is trans

Antenor is trans

Creusa is trans

Iliona is trans

Polymester is trans

Dido is trans

Oenone is trans

Aegiale is trans

Alcinous is trans

Nausicaa is trans

pylades is trans

Lavinia is trans

Anchises is trans.

[dootznbootz]

Hi. I'm cyberbullying a long dead poet because of his shitty fanfic. Enjoy. I'd love it if you joined me.

(Before you get mad at me, yes, I know Eugammon of Cyrene is an important figure and all that. I'm sick with some sort of flu. Let me cyberbully an ancient dead fanfic writer in peace.)

[soundbuster]

A Defense Case for The Telegony

The Telegony is called an unnecessary sequel to The Odyssey for good reasons.

The Odyssey ends with Odysseus returning home, reuniting with his family, and restoring order. It feels complete as it's one of the rare times a Greek hero gets something close to a happy ending.

But then The Telegony reveals that Odysseus had a son with Circe, Telegonus, who arrives and unknowingly kills him. After that, Circe turns Telemachus and Penelope immortal, marries Telemachus, and Telegonus marries Penelope.

I don't blame anyone for seeing it as bad fanfic that undoes the perfect ending Homer gave us.

But isn't that perfect when looking at Odysseus's story? It's one filled with actions that never stayed buries.

He blinded Polyphemus, so Poseidon spent years punishing him for it.

He survived Troy, but lost ten years in war and another ten years trying to get home.

The Phaeacians help him, and their ship is turned to stone for it.

Hell, just his whole crew dying for a mix of his and their stupidity.

His life is defined by consequences coming back to bite him, and Telegonus fits that pattern.

He isn't some random addition. He's the result of Odysseus's time with Circe, and that detour in his journey that felt like a pause didn't stay behind when he left.

It followed him, and it killed him.

And the most important thing to remember is how little of The Telegony we actually have.

What survives is a summary: Odysseus travels again, marries again, fights another war, returns home, dies, and then everyone gets paired off.

There’s no dialogue or insight that goes beyond these events.

How's his marriage with Penelope? Does she know the full story about Circe? How does she react to Ody's death and the identity of his killer?

How does Telemachus feel when meeting a half-brother who killed their father? Was Telegonus regretful when he found out the truth?

Were the marriages immediate or did they happen much later? Were they arranged, or did the pairs fall in love? What's Circe's role in all of this?

We just don't know.

Without any context, we're judging a skeleton and assuming the missing flesh was ugly.

Greek epics, just epics in general, rely heavily on characterization, speeches, emotional reactions—practically everything we don't have.

And in the end, the man of twists and turns wasn't brought down by a god or monster, but by someone from his past he never saw coming.

But then there's Tiresias' prophecy, that he would die gently of old age, far from the sea.

It can still happen. Odysseus could have still lived a full life, and perhaps he even reconciled with Telegonus to ensure no more family blood to be spilled.

The Odyssey doesn't have to lose it's ending for The Telegony to exist.

[ahotpeaceofshit]

Different versions of Calypso in ancient sources, I only added ones that had conflicting information.

[bespectacledcartomancer]

reminder to epic fans: I don't like the Telegony too but it's not "fanfiction" or "non-canon." Most myths and stories we have were not created by individual authors but had existed in oral tradition for years before they were written down. Therefore, there is no "non-canon" because there is no canon in the first place. There's no one or truest version of any myth because these stories were changing all the time.

And while the full poem itself didn't survive, accounts and summaries of the Telegony existed as early as the second century AD. Meaning Telegonus was an accepted part of Odysseus' story for years contemporarily.

I get not wanting to acknowledge it (I don't either) but please don't spread misinformation. I'm begging you.

[neonmetro]

ulysses dies at dawn

[katerinaaqu]

Do you know how long the Willowing Oar Quest from the Odyssey takes? I've been trying to look it up, but I couldn't really find anything. And once Odysseus gets home he has to present hecatombs to all of the gods one by one. From what I've found online a hecatomb is a sacrifice of like 12 to 100 cattle. In the retellings of the odyssey that have them, how long would it take before Odysseus could finally relax?

Oh the Winnowing Oar! Yeah! ^_^

This is one of the most interesting asks I am getting in a while but sadly I cannot cook something up either!

Most of the sources seem to state that he has to travel until he fulfills his dues but unfortunately is not clear how long that is (as opposed to other examples like for instance Heracles's journey. Most sources seem to mention it took quite some time (which makes sense given that Odysseus had to travel on foot in the mountains, by most accounts, of Thesprotia till he found the most remote place in the area that never saw or had any contact with the sea and get to build the temple to Poseidon there. And boy the mounts of Thesprotia are no joke! Hahaha

(this is mount Souli for instance in Thesprotia)

Now depending on the source the stay of Odysseus away from Ithaca might depend quite honest. I mean the journey alone must have taken a good few months if not a couple of years on my estimation, I mean if you need now several hours on foot with our roads and all at some point Odysseus must have needed the mountain paths to climb up and sometimes rarely paths at all so that would take some time. Then some form of temple must be built. I mean nothing too fancy but even a generally small construction might take a couple of weeks to build with manpower maybe smaller amount of time and then of course we have the journey back. (both on land and on sea)

(Thesprotia is that dark orange area in the map. Ithaca is roughly at the area I placed the black arrow at - I know not 100% accurate but bear with me! Hahaha-)

So we can expect that the expedition lasted several years. I am not even counting traditions based on Telegony according to which he married Callidice and had children with her, one of the sons was old enough to rule when his mother died so Odysseus left him to rule and returned to Ithaca. That seems to me at least a 20 year gap between the one event and the other hahaha (which is another reason why Homer-wise the whole Telegony thing sounds highly unlikely but maybe maybe Odysseus was almost 80 when he came back haha)

So I guess it really depends on how you use the sources you have. I would definitely make it easily a 5 year trip. Now ancient texts oftentimes become formulaic so someone speaking on a long trip, they sometimes say 10 years but it seems like a huperbole. Anyhow I do not think the whole oar quest took him more than that so I place it anywhere between 5-10 years but I am pulling this out of a hat at this point.

I mostly see the symbolism of winnowing to be honest and how the winnowing basket is a symbol (the word in greek λίκνο literally means also "cradle" which is what you put the baby in to rock it and cradle it. A winnowing basket was used essentially to place baby Dionysus in and is used as part of rituals that have to do with such deities)

Now the Hecatomb hahaha yeah hecatomb literally means "100 cattle" so in literature we see it as such. Of course historically speaking that seems to be reserved only for the largest of celebrations and wouldn't have been very often.

Sorry I cannot be of more help than this my friend. I am sorry if the wait disappointed you.