going on anon because i’m a little afraid of being crucified for this one but, and i’m saying this as a massive utdr fan, we need to be at least somewhat critical about the ways in which undertale and deltarune interact with race.
to be honest, this started when i saw a post from a jewish fan noting how spamton and tenna, as characters with big noses and big aspirations of money and success, do ring a bit of antisemetic stereotypes, especially in the way that spamtons greed is an active part of what makes him so eerie. he essentially facilitates you to do some of the worst actions you possibly can, which isn’t really helping matters.
from there i started thinking about both frisk and kris. why is it that both are portrayed with literal yellow skin? especially with frisk’s -_- expression, it reeks of sinophobia and yellowface, and kris’s expression is really only spared this connection because you can’t see their eyes. why is it that literal bright yellow is the darkest that human skin gets in these games?
with people talking about the upcoming deltarune chapter 5 and its japanese festival and shinto imagery, theres a discussion to be had about weeb culture and putting japan on a pedestal as well.
it makes me a bit sad because especially within deltarune, there are ideas that leave room open for really interesting concepts about race. kris being the only human in a monster town and experiencing some kind of species dysphoria is a really interesting one, and especially the fact that they don’t seem to have any ties to a previous cultural identity— instead being entirely assimilated into the cultural identity of the dreemurs.
susie as well holds incredible room for discussions of racism and especially antiblackness, considering that her life is essentially marked by being unwanted and percieved as threatening, even in a setting comprised of other monsters, some who definitely look more dangerous than this purple dinosaur. her butchness and refusal to bend to the forces that try to make her obedient and feminine are even more interesting when you read her as black, and people treating her like a violent and inherently dangerous creature just for existing is sadly very clearly reflected in real life. but because race isn’t a topic these games really engage with, it’s not a common discussion topic outside of majority POC spaces.
there’s a lot of genuine value to get out of readings of undertale and deltarune that incorporate race into them, but neither the games nor fandom particularly care to engage in it, which i think is a shame. it’s also important to look at how characters are portrayed critically and to ask if there are stereotypes at play.
Yeahhh... UTDR holds a special place in my heart but it's impossible to deny the orientalism and general lack of racial oversight in these games.
i wanted to know ur opinion on the recent undertale drama (if ur aware of it) with toby fox not translating/making dubs for the game except Japanese + in general the world tour of the undertale orchestra pretty much ignoring latin america.
mostly cuz people r using the excuse of “he cant learn every language” when its like…. hes a multi-millionaire like i can assure people it wont even scratch 1% of his wealth.
+ i saw the argument of fan translations being available (hypocritical af that toby supports those js so he doesn’t need to pay people) which js seems to ignore console players/people who dont have a computer.
I know of the controversy, and I've spoken about it in bits and pieces on both my blogs. I don't like it.
Spanish is one of the most widely spoken languages globally, to not want to have a Spanish dub for your game is something that could only be attributed to general bigotry and racism. I'm not sure why people are expecting HIM to learn the language specifically, as opposed to just hiring translators, so I also feel like that's just an excuse being made to take away from the problem at hand.
It's wonderful that there's a community of people who are doing the work for free as add-ons to the main game, but if it's not apart of the main source material then that's nothing to write home about.
Also at what point are we going to discuss Toby Fox's obsession with Japanese culture is a flavor of orientalism we shouldn't just keep endorsing because the characters are silly? Every other character is "white person weeb" and we've ventured so far into the satire and commentary of it all that we forgot to actually be genuine. It's another piece of media that perpetuates the concept of only white and Japanese people being able to exist in anime and anime-adjacent media, with the occasional Black character for tokenism. With that context in mind, it's a pretty shitty decision he made.
Something regarding the original Undertale that I've been thinking about for a while. For all the talk regarding Chara's morality (and the gender debates more controversally) and the game being over 10-years-old, I have never seen this massive flaw in the game's theme writing pointed out. This will probably get me stoned at the gallows, hence why I'm not applying the main tag, but hear me out.
So the gist of Undertale is that the player is controlling everything, correct? Poor little Frisk and Chara at the mercy of the mean old player who is playing the video game like a video game. It's your fault for killing everyone. It's your fault for the events of the game. It's your fault everyone is suffering. The game's promoted main theme is about how your actions, good or bad, will matter, correct?
Here's the thing . . . Undertale tries to have it's cake and eat it too, when the messages are completely opposite.
Apologies for the quality, these are YouTube screenshots and my video quality loves being inconsistent.
Why is it that when a genocide route is played, all of the blame goes to you, the player, while in the pacifist route, all the praise goes to Frisk, the character? Both times, Frisk is equally controlled by the player. The player is still the one making all of the good choices, not the video game character. As neat as that "Frisk LV 20" theory is, Frisk is still the same person in the pacifist, neutral, and aborted genocide routes. Is that also not the most famous quote in the game?
Which is it? Is it that the player controls everything and that Frisk is a self insert? Or is Frisk their own person that is being controlled? The two main routes contradict themselves! And how does Chara play into this because again, the game is trying both and confusing itself. Chara is a third entitiy, a victim being taken advantage of with no power, controlling Frisk, and fighting for control with you all at the same time. Does "your actions are important and have consequences" truly apply or does it only mean bad consequences, since the good consequences are apprently Frisk's consequences? Is that not the most pessmistic and contradictory message for a game supposedly about love and hope and acceptance? "People are inheriently evil and will cause pain and when they do something good, it actually doesn't count and was the reason of something else."
There's a sense of mean spiritdness too in the same way Deltarune does with it's "feel horrible about your choice to play while nothing matters at the same time, you must take everything seriously while we taken nothing seriously" attitude. I really need to, as they say, lock in and take all my annotated notes for that Deltarune analysis video. Oh I have thoughts. Many thoughts.
The easiest solution to this problem is to either not give Frisk a name and have them be a self insert, or establish a very clear disconnect beteween Frisk and the player in all routes. Sure, sure, "less complex narrative" or whatever, but it this a case of a complex narrative or a convoluted one? It doesn't even feel like an intentional effect, rather like Fox didn't want to go into the nuances of the topic of choice and have an easy explaination and defense for Frisk (Anything good = Frisk did it, anything bad = Frisk didn't do it), or didn't want to write the backstory and personality of a character that is relevant for longer than two scenes and/or is made up of implications that stay implications and theories. This applies to Chara's "liquid hate" thing too. Interesting how this vague element doesn't affect any other character except Chara, during the moment where they're most obviously appearing as a villian (and if we argue this is Determination, then how come it doesn't turn the monsters eviler than they are and while being at the same level of power, it's potrayed as a positive thing in the pacifist run?). Sadly, as much as I love AUs and Killer, they do not count or excuse the writing as the jumpscare was prioritized over sense.
Personally, I'd go for the self-insert route as it would make the emotional beats Undertale attempts far more impactful, such as killing or hugging Toriel being your choice, vs how the game truly is with it saying no, Frisk chose to hug Toriel despite you clicking the button, while you are 100% responsible for killing her.
I also can't help but find that the way the "evidence" for Frisk being their own person is treated reminds me of Pixar theorists with the Pixar theory. If you're unfamiliar with the Pixar theory, it's the idea that all the movies are connected thanks to easter eggs scattered throughout the films. However, the problem is that many theorists will put heavy emphasis on some details being cruical to the theory (i.e Sully from Monsters Inc being drawn on a piece of wood in the home of the witch from Brave's home), while insisting other details are just easter eggs and not worth discussing since they make things complicated (i.e Boo from Monsters Inc having a toy of Marlin from Finding Nemo).
A five second cutscene of Frisk walking towards a curtain, a five second hug cutscene (an option that requires an input from the player to happen right before, but let's ignore that), and the mention of not liking soda in Undyne's house are the main sources of evidence for Frisk being their own person. I will not be counting the pronouns because that applies to both ideas of a self insert for the sake of neutrality and not needing to add a feature that flips between three different scripts of the game, or Frisk being their own person. Sue me. Apparently, their genders are also brought up in a book called Legend of Localizations, but if you've seen my other posts or comments critiquing media, you know how much I despise creators hiding cruical pieces of information in sources outside the actual media. Include it in the game or don't include it at all. Therefore, I will not count this book.
Firstly, I'd argue both of the cutscene moments are cutscenes for impact and story value. The first scene is meant to build up tension and horror. If you played it, you'd be walking very slowly, which is annoying while pushing on a key or joy stick harshly, so that irritation becomes where part of your emotion goes. Plus, you'd be able to stop and if you can stop with nothing happening, would that not kill the tension and worry the scene is going for as there is nothing to fear? The Asriel hug scene is similar to a lesser extent. You'd be able to stop your character and that moment would lose some of it's sentimental value.
Secondly, riddle me this, why is this "sickly yellow liquid" soda detail treated as more significant evidence than the fact you can choose Frisk's personality?
Rude, kind, apathetic, flirty, maybe I'm looking into this one too much, but these constant moments of actively choosing Frisk's behavior through ACT are brushed aside as not being important to both the game and fanbase. It doesn't matter how you ACT or if it's consistent, since nobody will comment besides one line of dialogue for that turn despite that also being a choice, if my memory serves me correct.
All of this excess to say that I find the "Frisk is their own person" integration very weak, if that was even the intention and not one of Undertale and Deltarune's many, many examples of theory bait.
I did write a rant about how the fanbase contributes to this contradiction of Frisk and Chara regarding "they are a self insert that you can choose everything for EXCEPT for their gender and if you actually call them a self insert after treating them like one you're (cue insult of choice here)", but I decided against including it as I didn't want to have my in-game critique bring in out-of-game critique. Although I could go on a whole other rant about how strict the Undertale fandom has become with interpretations of all the characters and fanart due to over correction and "fixing" problems that weren't even a big deal in the first place, like potraying Papyrus as hating puns, while ignoring the real ones such as the harassment over how you play the choice game.
Kris and Deltarune is a hot mess of game with a narrative that also has this same issue as Frisk and Undertale. The game guilt trips you over and over for being such a horrible person for possessing this poor innocent kiddo, and then turns around and treats Kris like nothing but the same video game narrator that they were criticizing you as with constantly ignoring their personal issues in favor of other characters. I'm looking at you, Tenna, and how you're the vessel the game chooses to explore the theme of divorce with instead of the protagonist child living through a divorce who's emotions are ignored to focus on you.
There. I have spoken my peace on the matter. I think Undertale fumbles it's morality message as it's too scared to apply hard discussions onto the characters while being overly negative to the player and is unclear as to whether Frisk is a self insert or a character, which confuses the game as it implies only your negative choices mean anything. I hope this made cohesive sense as I went through a few edits.
i also have a similar post critiquing Asgore's writing that has been in my drafts for months unfinished if anyone is interested. Long story short is that I believe he's a severely underwritten character with obvious negative writer's bias, backstory and lore information that is told through an unimportant character rather than shown, and he falls into the Toby Fox trap of, "I'm scared to write a villian so I turned him into a joke, while also using him as the punching bag to ignore the implications and consequences from every other character".
Hey. I see you're something of an unofficial Deltarune Critical Confessions blog, or at least you're willing to discuss that type of thing with people. I have a thing (Not sure it's a criticism or a personal thing) I really want to talk about, and so far nobody's listened.
I don't play Deltarune. Heck, I never even played Undertale. I saw a ton of references to it on the online games I played around that time, but never played it myself. From the way I see people talking about DR on social media, it looks like something I want to play. But... I kind of feel like it's too late.
As an outsider looking in, UTDR seems less like a traditional game in which one jumps on turtles and saves the princess as one pleases, and more like a time-based interactive art piece. You can technically play it at any time, but the only way you're getting the full experience as Toby intended is if you played Undertale on release, downloaded the Deltarune demo without knowing what it was, and played each chapter as they came out. That's an odd way to build a game, but with the mystery-heavy meta-narrative the series employs, that's pretty much how it feels.
I'm afraid that if I played through Undertale and what parts of Deltarune are out right now, I'd be missing something. I might have a good time, sure, but not as good a time as I would've had if I'd done it right. I wouldn't get to discover Undertale's secrets on my own, and my playthroughs of Deltarune's fun adventures would be ruined by the knowledge that they're over, and whatever comes next won't be so happy.
Worse yet, I want to be part of the fandom. People say I'm lucky for missing the old Undertale fandom, but the current one looks so much fun to be part of. But since Deltarune's mostly over, If I joined now (and wasn't bullied out for being a larper) I'd only have a couple years in it until the game ends and the fandom fades away. All in all, it seems like a fun series to play and a fun bunch of people to play it with, but I'm not sure joining now would be worth it.
I guess that's why I've been on the Deltarune critical tag so much. Since I'm so conflicted over starting the series, I want to convince myself I'm not missing anything good. To be honest, I'm not sure it's working. I've read a lot of complaints about DR's gameplay and story, but still find myself drawn to it.
I know this is dumb, and a lot of people have told me as such, but it's how I feel. I really wanted to tell this to someone I think will listen.
Aw geez. Unofficial confessions blog? I write fanfic I WRITE FANFIC AAA AAAA.
I'll bite though, since I haven't taken a swing with one of these in a sec. I can pick and choose what I do and nobody can stop me.
The FOMO that UTDR brings is absolutely understandable to the point where I get stressed whenever a new chapter comes out. Each version of the fanbase is a time capsule until the next version of the chapter comes out. Different interpretations and perspectives on the game rise and fall as each chapter phase comes and goes, and those stretches are growing smaller and smaller.
Notably, I don't think the chapter releases are a good thing just because the fandom gets creative in-between. It is a silver-lining for someone who is already "in", but now that ch5 has passed, I am fatigued and would like the game to END. Every loop, there's hidden lore to discuss, lines that people aren't paying attention to, new ARG material that starts to come out, teasers, soundtracks, sprites, new perspectives on theories! And at some point, the fandom becomes a tad bit hostile if you aren't keeping up with all of this. With accusations of media illiteracy being thrown around like hotcakes, it feels like you HAVE to be in the know, or you're a "fake fan". It becomes absolutely exhausting to keep up with.
The thing is, I want to disagree with you! I WANT to tell you that these games can be experienced at any time. However, ch5 has mangled that HORRENDOUSLY.
Because ch5 does STUPID amount of nostalgia baiting. It nostalgia baits your love for Chapter 1 despite Chapter 1 only happening days prior in-lore. If you're fresh to UTDR and just played Undertale before the game, or worse, DIDN'T PLAY UNDERTALE, what's the point of all of the Undertale references? You don't have the same nostalgia, so you don't really care for why all of these flowers are humans, why they keep saying buzzwords, and why they take up so much screentime despite the plot of Deltarune almost starting to kick off last chapter!
If you don't have that nostalgia, if you haven't been here as long as the game predicts you have, it is far more likely to miss.
Mind you, I am the person you are describing. I played UT when it first came out, though I was entirely spoiled. I played each stage of Deltarune as it came out, unspoiled of its contents. And the thing is... I STILL have gripes with the game at this point! I still feel exhausted. I still feel like Chapter 5 has dashed many of my hopes. It seemed like it was meant to be a love-letter to Undertale fans, but it almost felt patronizing due to the fact that I'm interested in what DELTARUNE has to say right now! I'm not interested in retreading old ground! Deltarune was priming itself to finally take off with its own wings, but then it got scared and became so self-referential that it comes off as insincere and insecure.
Also I'm gonna be so fr, people say the old UT fandom was bad, but I think they're conflating "bad" with "cringe" while citing the same 2 or 3 big events to prove it was entirely a cesspit. The UT fandom was cringe, but by god we were free. People were throwing wacky ideas at the wall and doing whatever with zero regard for canon! And like, yeah! Respecting canon is cool! If you take away all of the traits of The Character and The Setting, you have made a whole ass different thing. But by god it was cool to see how many different perceptions could shape something. You saw so many people being unabashedly creative, so much so that all of it was celebrated in the UT 10th anniversary stream.
People say the DR fandom is much better, but while we tend to try to figure out what is "canon", people are a lot more... restrictive? Mean? Cruel? If you deviate from canon at all, it's no longer a "Oh that's neat!" type of deal. It becomes "Well clearly you are media illiterate and should never engage with a piece of media again". Awesome way to encourage creativity and engagement with something people love, everyone! Wonderful job! You have to be "RIGHT" to be allowed to deviate from canon. "Headcanons" are no longer a thing that really is allowed to exist. People feel like they have to justify headcanons as actual theory or they're not allowed to exist, and it's genuinely stifling in a way I cannot describe.
So I'm really, really sorry that you've gained those fears of being pushed out because people might think you're a poser. That is not at all what someone should feel like when wanting to join the conversation about something they enjoy.
Here's the thing.
All of this sounds very doom and gloom. You'd expect me to convince you not to engage. However, you have not experienced these games for yourself. You, as of now, are stuck in decision-paralysis where you do not want to be disappointed, but you feel like you want to take the leap and surprise yourself.
These games are not bad.
Undertale introduced me to the very idea of writing fanfic even after it was already over. Like, you're worried about Deltarune being over and the flame dying out, but the Undertale fandom didn't know Deltarune would exist. We were just having fun with a finished story, filling in the gaps and creating new scenarios where the game didn't. The chapter release schedule probably makes everyone feel like the game will die out when it's over because it is "solved". Lol. Lmao. People are going to rally behind something they enjoy for a WHILE. It might not be as active as it once was, but if you enjoy it enough, it'll still be something.
Deltarune Ch1-4 were all very enjoyable for me. Those 4 chapters made up one of the most potent gaming experiences I've had, making it my second favorite game of all time (first will always go to Outer Wilds lol). Those four, despite my grievances with Chapter 5, are worth it alone. I will say, the high highs make the low lows of Chapter 5 imo incredibly brutal. The story feels like it's finally coming to fruition and narrowing its scope before it just kinda spirals out of control. Then again, I'm not the arbiter of Chapter 5! A lot of people did like it, even if I think my criticisms are legitimate and it could've been WAYYYY better.
I think it is worthwhile to take the leap.
Even if you find these games not living up to the hype, you might find something within all of them that really hooks you. For me, it was the metanarrative. I've written countless stories in my pinned post because I wanted to combine all of the things that resonated with me.
You should go in. You should play. You should decide what speaks to you and what doesn't. Right now, you're stuck not knowing. The time will pass regardless. The past snapshots of the fanbase and the "correct" times to play are gone. However, I believe that there is still something worthwhile there even if you are not experiencing it in the "authentic" way.
I hope you find the time to let yourself have a little bit of fun. Honestly, I envy you a bit. You won't be disappointed after 10 years of investment. For you, it'll hopefully be short if you get disappointed, or maybe it'll really shine if you end up liking it.
Regardless, you'll have to find those answers yourself, and I hope you look for them!
I love undertale to bits and i have been drawing fanart for decades for it but one thing i didn't like even as a kid it how downplay Frisk trauma is .
i get there a silant protagonist but i find it infuriating in a story about kindness and compassion we don't get to know them ,reson why they climb the mountain.
Game hammer in they are there own person but the way monsters treated them through out the story is never achnolge.
Like genocide run frames it bad to go seak monsters and whip them but them doing this to Frisk it brush aside.Even Undyne comment at the end doesn't help playing it as a joke thet 'We all tried to kill Frisk '
