Asgore is one of my fave characters in Undertale and it's crazy to see how bad Bumgore in Deltarune is handled. He's genuinely my second least favourite character after Tenna ngl.
He was already questionable before but somehow chapter 5 made his case even worse. His characterisation, his wack relationship with Kris (who? you mean the vagueposting child?), everything related to him, the vagueposting and the """development""" are all so ass.
Why does Bumgore and the story pretend like creatures that have a deep love for him because he's literally their caretaker and supports their existence (the reason shipbait of Bumgore x Flowery is gross to me) wanting to make him happy in a magical world is the same as Bumgore stalking and harassing his wife every day? Nobody was forcing him to play along with Flowery yet he did only to go "um actually I didn't like that" later. How is this comparable to this grown ass bum harassing his ex wife that clearly doesn't want to see him? And then he also realises that he should pay attention to his kids because the script told him. Of course Kris is still a lifeless dummy standing there because their feelings on their dad being an absent selfish neglectful bum aren't that important. What if Kris and Asriel don't want to hang out with Bumgore lmao? Who cares they exist to be accessories for Bumgore's "development" in the story.
Obligatory mention of Bumgore getting two scenes where he's over the top evil for no reason. I genuinely thought his armour was corrupting him because what was that personality change? He gets violent with Kris and Susie? Talks about parading corpses on the streets? This felt like Toby trying to make Bumgore into Asgore but it didn't work and felt laughable and stupid.
I think Asgore had less screentime than Bumgore yet he's an amazing character (also ASGORE is one of the best songs in Undertale and written by Toby overall) meanwhile Bumgore fucking sucks so bad. I have no idea how those two are written by the same person. Xoxo Asgore I'll always love you♥️ Fuck Bumgore bro
Asgore is 100% a case of writer's bias, but unlike Susie, it's negative. And that's where most of his writing issues lie.
I'm going to use this ask as an excuse to go over my feelings on Undertale Asgore. I think he is very underutilized and arguably the weakest character of the main cast, other than Frisk who is barely a character to begin with. He is a really strong character on paper, but in execution, I understand why nobody in the fandom cared about him for so long.
I've thought about this for a while and Asgore's problem is that we don't have the same "bonding" scene we have with every other character. Living in Toriel's home, dating Papyrus, cooking with Undyne, Alphys's date, Mettatton's minigames, and going to Grillby's with Sans allows us to have one-on-one time with these characters. Asgore doesn't get this. Yes, he speaks in battle, but so does every other character. Everything we know about him is from comments made by the other characters, which does paint an interesting image between Toriel's hate and insistance he's evil vs. everyone else calling him a fluffy huggable guy.
At the end of the game, we talk to Sans, meet Asgore, immeditately fight him in a intermediate level battle, and then he's pushed aside to be barely acknowledged in all three main endings. This is a choice that has always confused me. Why is Flowey/Asriel the final boss twice and Asgore not once? In the Asriel fight in Pacifist, I don't know anyone who wanted to save Asgore first because we barely know him.
I'm sorry, but Omega Flowey is such a stupid boss, I thought that even when I was most into Undertale. If the neutral ending was supposed to be the "typical RPG ending", wouldn't having the typical RPG boss work better than whatever Flowey is supposed to be? It could be used as both a boss fight and a character devlopment moment, because we can see from Omega Flowey that a gamestyle shake up isn't impossible.
For the entirity of the True Pacifist ending, Asgore is practically a pre-cursor to his apperance in Deltarune, and Deltarune's cast as a whole. He is one simple joke for the rest of the game: "I am pathetic and miss my wifey that hates me." Even his character model is being pushed off screen like it wants as little attention on him as possible.
This is more of an overall game problem vs Asgore alone, but I almost wonder if the choice to make all of the fallen humans die to Asgore instead of die in the area we find their possessions was to shift blame away from the other characters in fear of the audience not liking them. We see this in Deltarune with that awful TV in how we're supposed to ignore the horrible things he did because he's goofy and silly and one of Fox's favorites, and even in Ralsei never getting consequences for hiding information and motives from the rest of the Fun Gang becauase he's a marketable plushie that sells incredibly well. Or how we're supposed to ignore Susie being a bully and instead focus on how weird and awesome she is.
Having all the humans reach Asgore but leave their possessions behind doesn't make a lot of sense when these same objects are shown to be important to them. And we're not supposed to think of the implcations of two monsters selling off dead kids' possessions as souveiners while giggling about it. It would be an interesting conversation on morality, but just like Frisk getting out of any moral discussion by blaming the player for any negative choice while getting the credit for all positive choices, the monsters get out of their excitement of killing this human child because all the fault goes to Asgore. Ironically, making him a scapegoat.
Asgore in Undertale has the issue feeling like all set up and no pay off due to not having a bonding scene and the game being more focused at poking fun at him than exploring him.
I know bringing in the fandom isn't fair, but I think it's interesting how most Asgore fans I've seen don't actually seem to like Asgore or want to explore his characters (not saying you're not a fan, this is just a transition to bring in another note), but they're only doing it because they feel good about liking an "underrated" character instead of Sans, who they attack if they see fans of him. The Undertale fandom overcorrecting every single main character because they're so ashamed of the pre-2020 fandom, while also not fixing any of the actual issues or inverting them into the opposite extreme, is something I could write a whole other post about because I find it fascinating. I'd argue the fandom grew more toxic overtime because of how strict the rules for potraying characters and the game became, and these shifts started happening after Deltarune Chapter 2's release. Yet for some reason, UTDR fans are never called out for their toxicity, obnoxious behavior (namely how they need to make every single post a Undertale/Deltarune reference, including real world serious topics), inability to handle any criticism, and strange, borderline religious worship of Toby Fox unlike other fandoms with the same issues. My guess as to why this is because everyone outside the fandom knows Undertale as "was worse but grew better over time", while also not being able to explain why the fandom was bad in the first place other than "it was cringe".
Undertale section over. Deltaruined time.
Firstly, I'm surprised Asgore was important (or "important") to any chapter because I was fully convinced he would stay to that "I miss my wife that doesn't love me" joke that was his entire personality for four chapters. I didn't think we were supposed see him as anything more than pathetic given all he seems to is be depressed and stalk Toriel, though he does genuinely love Kris.
I actually thought the same thing about his armor! Flowery is obsessed with Asgore and keeping him happy, so it would make sense if he put a spell on him to keep him close. Except . . . no. Asgore just attacks his kid and their friend, then acts mysterious, for no reason. It sours the ending greatly, along with the tiny handful of moments of Asgore caring about his children earlier. I can't predict how Kris and Asriel are going to be handled in the future. My best guess is that Asriel is going to make a joke related to Flowey and Asgore and Susie are going to look around awkwardly because oops, they know someone like that! Then they move on and the joke is that Asgore is pathetic while Asriel is looking around awkwardly.
The interesting thing about the flowers is that in chapter 2, Asgore talking to his flowers is played off as a joke about how desperate he is. Now we're supposed to take this seriously and feel sad when the 7 human souls- I mean seven humanoid flowers turn back into flowers.
I'm willing to accept the interpretation that this was the intention, that's its a moment we're supposed to look back at fondly after all the context. But I've been decieved and lied to by this game so many times that everything feels like it needs to be taken with a grain of salt.
I can't believe there was a second "Mike reveal", which I think is what I'm going to keep calling these moments if they persist in later chapters. We have chapter 4 with this long, drawn out monologue of Asgore talking to himself (also for no reason) about this terrible event.
It meant nothing. A year of questioning and theorizing and it once again, meant nothing because Asgore can't read the texts he has been so cryptic about.
Once again, I feel like I say this every time I talk about UTDR, but the game is trying to have its cake and eat it too. It wants us to look at Asgore as a bumbling sitcom husband who can't take no for an answer, and a deeply traumatized and complex man who loves his kids despite barely paying interest in them at the same time.
Flowery and Asgore's dynamic is so strange, and another of the many victims of poorly done shipping throughout this chapter. I don't think there's a single ship in this game I like. Flowery is meant to show what Asgore wants, a relationship where he's loved, but Flowery is too unlikable and as you said, a happy magical world full of flowers and Asgore violating his metaphorical restraining order are not comparable when Asgore chose to go with Flowery, when Toriel is trying not to be around Asgore, who can't seem to get the hint.
Deltarune made me realize that one of Undertale's greatest strengths is that it's a short game. Nothing overstays its welcome or has time to grow flanderized or stale. It also doesn't take 1 year or more for each part to release. Sometimes I think I would've liked a lot of the characters if they only had 20 minutes to shine instead of 3 hours. Vice versa, characters like Papyrus would be a lot less charming if his phone quips and quotes were constant and not once in a while.
Both games take place over about the same amount of time, a week to even about 4 days in Undertale's case, but Deltarune feels more rushed and more dragged out at the same time because of how the chapters are split and paced. The same amount of action that takes place over 4 days in Undertale is only 12 hours in Deltarune. It feels like the game has little time to breathe.
I am so worried for how Asriel is going to be potrayed once he appears. Given all this game is interested in doing is subverting expectations and destroying all the Undertale legacy characters, for some reason, I can see Asriel having the same personality as Zephyr Breeze because it's unexpected and a subversion from both the cute and tragic characters of his Undertale iterations.
Asgore could've been one of the best characters in both games, and is written as such, but he's executed like a punching bag for every other character to laugh at.
Something regarding the original Undertale that I've been thinking about for a while. For all the talk regarding Chara's morality (and the gender debates more controversally) and the game being over 10-years-old, I have never seen this massive flaw in the game's theme writing pointed out. This will probably get me stoned at the gallows, hence why I'm not applying the main tag, but hear me out.
So the gist of Undertale is that the player is controlling everything, correct? Poor little Frisk and Chara at the mercy of the mean old player who is playing the video game like a video game. It's your fault for killing everyone. It's your fault for the events of the game. It's your fault everyone is suffering. The game's promoted main theme is about how your actions, good or bad, will matter, correct?
Here's the thing . . . Undertale tries to have it's cake and eat it too, when the messages are completely opposite.
Apologies for the quality, these are YouTube screenshots and my video quality loves being inconsistent.
Why is it that when a genocide route is played, all of the blame goes to you, the player, while in the pacifist route, all the praise goes to Frisk, the character? Both times, Frisk is equally controlled by the player. The player is still the one making all of the good choices, not the video game character. As neat as that "Frisk LV 20" theory is, Frisk is still the same person in the pacifist, neutral, and aborted genocide routes. Is that also not the most famous quote in the game?
Which is it? Is it that the player controls everything and that Frisk is a self insert? Or is Frisk their own person that is being controlled? The two main routes contradict themselves! And how does Chara play into this because again, the game is trying both and confusing itself. Chara is a third entitiy, a victim being taken advantage of with no power, controlling Frisk, and fighting for control with you all at the same time. Does "your actions are important and have consequences" truly apply or does it only mean bad consequences, since the good consequences are apprently Frisk's consequences? Is that not the most pessmistic and contradictory message for a game supposedly about love and hope and acceptance? "People are inheriently evil and will cause pain and when they do something good, it actually doesn't count and was the reason of something else."
There's a sense of mean spiritdness too in the same way Deltarune does with it's "feel horrible about your choice to play while nothing matters at the same time, you must take everything seriously while we taken nothing seriously" attitude. I really need to, as they say, lock in and take all my annotated notes for that Deltarune analysis video. Oh I have thoughts. Many thoughts.
The easiest solution to this problem is to either not give Frisk a name and have them be a self insert, or establish a very clear disconnect beteween Frisk and the player in all routes. Sure, sure, "less complex narrative" or whatever, but it this a case of a complex narrative or a convoluted one? It doesn't even feel like an intentional effect, rather like Fox didn't want to go into the nuances of the topic of choice and have an easy explaination and defense for Frisk (Anything good = Frisk did it, anything bad = Frisk didn't do it), or didn't want to write the backstory and personality of a character that is relevant for longer than two scenes and/or is made up of implications that stay implications and theories. This applies to Chara's "liquid hate" thing too. Interesting how this vague element doesn't affect any other character except Chara, during the moment where they're most obviously appearing as a villian (and if we argue this is Determination, then how come it doesn't turn the monsters eviler than they are and while being at the same level of power, it's potrayed as a positive thing in the pacifist run?). Sadly, as much as I love AUs and Killer, they do not count or excuse the writing as the jumpscare was prioritized over sense.
Personally, I'd go for the self-insert route as it would make the emotional beats Undertale attempts far more impactful, such as killing or hugging Toriel being your choice, vs how the game truly is with it saying no, Frisk chose to hug Toriel despite you clicking the button, while you are 100% responsible for killing her.
I also can't help but find that the way the "evidence" for Frisk being their own person is treated reminds me of Pixar theorists with the Pixar theory. If you're unfamiliar with the Pixar theory, it's the idea that all the movies are connected thanks to easter eggs scattered throughout the films. However, the problem is that many theorists will put heavy emphasis on some details being cruical to the theory (i.e Sully from Monsters Inc being drawn on a piece of wood in the home of the witch from Brave's home), while insisting other details are just easter eggs and not worth discussing since they make things complicated (i.e Boo from Monsters Inc having a toy of Marlin from Finding Nemo).
A five second cutscene of Frisk walking towards a curtain, a five second hug cutscene (an option that requires an input from the player to happen right before, but let's ignore that), and the mention of not liking soda in Undyne's house are the main sources of evidence for Frisk being their own person. I will not be counting the pronouns because that applies to both ideas of a self insert for the sake of neutrality and not needing to add a feature that flips between three different scripts of the game, or Frisk being their own person. Sue me. Apparently, their genders are also brought up in a book called Legend of Localizations, but if you've seen my other posts or comments critiquing media, you know how much I despise creators hiding cruical pieces of information in sources outside the actual media. Include it in the game or don't include it at all. Therefore, I will not count this book.
Firstly, I'd argue both of the cutscene moments are cutscenes for impact and story value. The first scene is meant to build up tension and horror. If you played it, you'd be walking very slowly, which is annoying while pushing on a key or joy stick harshly, so that irritation becomes where part of your emotion goes. Plus, you'd be able to stop and if you can stop with nothing happening, would that not kill the tension and worry the scene is going for as there is nothing to fear? The Asriel hug scene is similar to a lesser extent. You'd be able to stop your character and that moment would lose some of it's sentimental value.
Secondly, riddle me this, why is this "sickly yellow liquid" soda detail treated as more significant evidence than the fact you can choose Frisk's personality?
Rude, kind, apathetic, flirty, maybe I'm looking into this one too much, but these constant moments of actively choosing Frisk's behavior through ACT are brushed aside as not being important to both the game and fanbase. It doesn't matter how you ACT or if it's consistent, since nobody will comment besides one line of dialogue for that turn despite that also being a choice, if my memory serves me correct.
All of this excess to say that I find the "Frisk is their own person" integration very weak, if that was even the intention and not one of Undertale and Deltarune's many, many examples of theory bait.
I did write a rant about how the fanbase contributes to this contradiction of Frisk and Chara regarding "they are a self insert that you can choose everything for EXCEPT for their gender and if you actually call them a self insert after treating them like one you're (cue insult of choice here)", but I decided against including it as I didn't want to have my in-game critique bring in out-of-game critique. Although I could go on a whole other rant about how strict the Undertale fandom has become with interpretations of all the characters and fanart due to over correction and "fixing" problems that weren't even a big deal in the first place, like potraying Papyrus as hating puns, while ignoring the real ones such as the harassment over how you play the choice game.
Kris and Deltarune is a hot mess of game with a narrative that also has this same issue as Frisk and Undertale. The game guilt trips you over and over for being such a horrible person for possessing this poor innocent kiddo, and then turns around and treats Kris like nothing but the same video game narrator that they were criticizing you as with constantly ignoring their personal issues in favor of other characters. I'm looking at you, Tenna, and how you're the vessel the game chooses to explore the theme of divorce with instead of the protagonist child living through a divorce who's emotions are ignored to focus on you.
There. I have spoken my peace on the matter. I think Undertale fumbles it's morality message as it's too scared to apply hard discussions onto the characters while being overly negative to the player and is unclear as to whether Frisk is a self insert or a character, which confuses the game as it implies only your negative choices mean anything. I hope this made cohesive sense as I went through a few edits.
i also have a similar post critiquing Asgore's writing that has been in my drafts for months unfinished if anyone is interested. Long story short is that I believe he's a severely underwritten character with obvious negative writer's bias, backstory and lore information that is told through an unimportant character rather than shown, and he falls into the Toby Fox trap of, "I'm scared to write a villian so I turned him into a joke, while also using him as the punching bag to ignore the implications and consequences from every other character".
what’s really gross about the Undertale first update with Burgerpants’ talk about being Mettaton
note; All those who dismiss me without proper arguments or think realistic sexual harassment is funny and fine so long as characters are cartoons risk being blocked
for context
“Though, now that I think about it, I had to throw away all of my clothes to make room for the outfits Mettaton gave me... Don't take it the wrong way. They're just all these... Weird getups. "Promotional" costumes. For "holidays." Or "specials." Or "because he felt like it." The thing IS though! Most of the time I'm the only employee who has to wear this stuff! Sometimes he even calls me into his office just to... Make me put something on... Then he laughs and lets me go back to work as normal. Anyways, I won't sweat it, little buddy.”
That.. sounds like a freaking Me-Too story from Hollywood.
It gives off the feelings of naivetie I’ve seen of people recalling being harassed but not having the knowledge or experience to understand what’s happening.
And given the whole “are you really qualified to judge who lives and who dies” question of game Sans poses and Mettaon’s pacifist route scenes about how many people he’s inspired and made happy... it comes off as siding with those on entertainment scandals who dismiss victims on the basis of “but this famous person made so many people happy, surely that outweighs those they victimized?”
Even if its meant to just be an allegory with nothing sexual...that’s still comes off as siding with the wrong people.
I really doubt Toby Fox was thinking that deep, and he might not even remember the lines given he doesn’t even remember creating some characters. He might have just thrown it in.
But it really should not be there. It adds nothing but discomfort.
Alphys at least got fired but Mettaton gets no comeuppance for this...and its really gross.
I would really like if it could be removed in a future re-release since it wasn’t in the first version of the game.
But I doubt enough people would care. Too many have “I’m reading too much into it.” without properly addressing the fact Mettaton’s whole thing is parodying the awfulness of the entertainment industry.
I don't understand people who are like "Undertale punishes the player for playing the game like a normal rpg" Like Dude The literal tutorial tells you that you don't have to attack anyone in order to win. From the outset this is clearly not your normal rpg. But you insist on playing by YOUR rules even though the game establishes different ones. Of course the result would be less than desirable. (Unless you wanted the genocide ending, which is your call, after all.)
