@screwballninja ask: What did you think of the episode?
It was unexpectedly good. The plot devices and progressions are often stupid, so I’m just going to discuss the character interactions, mostly the Milah related stuff.
Milah & Rumple - flashbacks
Milah got to say the things the Milah fandom has been guessing about for years. It’s finally established that she’s been doing a lot of the house work and chores. Not because she’s a widowed mother, but because her husband injured himself on purpose. I knew it’d be because of Rumple’s leg; there’s lots of work that’s hard to do when you’ve got one hand always on a cane/staff. What I didn’t expect was them showing that Rumple is sometimes choosing to not pull his weight around the house (I’d assume he doesn’t do that all the time). Given that the family is probably ostracized by the town (which this episode did not confirm or deny), Baelfire may not have many or any friends his own age. So i can see why rumple would want to spent time with him if no one else is going to.
“We’ll get our cure anyway. You’ll go back and take it” - It’s worth pointing out that Milah’s mind did not immediately go towards murder. Murdering doctors/healers is not advisable, given that their craft isn’t common. She only talked about stealing it, AND THEN when rumple suggested that the healer would kill them for it, she suggested murder.
Their plan, it seems, was to try to steal it sneakily, but bring a knife just in case, which is exactly what happened.
The Deal:
I get that Milah and Rumple were in a bad place, ergo not having sex, and probably weren’t ever going to fix their marriage. But her heartbreak over Rumple selling their potential future child makes sense and shouldn’t be swept under the rug. She had hope that things would get better. Not only that, we have ample evidence that she wanted to stay and make things work.
It would have been better if Rumple had suggested discussing this back at his house to ask his wife, but the Healer wouldn’t have agreed to that. Not only does it sound like an ambush, but he knew it was likely the wife wouldn’t agree.
I agree that Rumple didn’t sell her child, he sold his, so it’s not completely a disregard for her agency. However, he was an idiot in regards to consequences, as we’ve seen before. He was actually surprised by how upset she was.
Milah + Killian
I had always preferred to believe that Milah left because she was depressed, couldn’t live with Rumple, and didn’t know how to be a mother anymore, and then over time, fell in love with Killian. So it was a happy day for me to have that confirmed. She was attracted to him, and impressed by him, but she wasn’t going to cheat and didn’t want to leave with him after one meeting just because he was so pretty. Killian was the way out, but she left because of Rumple.
I’m pretty upset that Milah and Killian didn’t at least get to see each other, let alone talk to one another. I especially wanted her to say to Killian the one thing I’ve never heard a character say before. Many characters, whether it be in books, tv, or movies, make a big deal about “this isn’t what they would have wanted”.
I think it would have been funny, as well as befitting her character, to say, I liked that you tried to avenge me. Though I’d expect her to also say, that she’s even more glad he gave revenge up when the time was right and moved on with someone else.
~Rumple/Emma, CS, and Regina comments below the cut~
Milah - Present
Her confirming that she used to love Rumple was a nice reminder for those in the back that have bad memories (2x14).
Her unfinished business being Baelfire was perfect. Of course it would be. It’s hilariously sad that Rumple didn’t guess that. Her speech on the boat about her past sins was well written. I’m glad she got a chance to say all those things to someone who mattered, and it wouldn’t have felt right if she’d said them to anyone other than Rumple.
Rumple & Emma
The Golden Swan rivalry is at a similar place that Golden Queen used to be at. They work together when it suits them, but they really kinda of hate each other, and will do their best to hurt the other for either real or imagined slights. It’s a similar dynamic with very different backstory.
Emma has had plenty of reasons in the past to want Rumple to suffer or die. but this time? My problem is that Emma is acting like Hook’s death was only to destroy darkness. She keeps talking about his Sacrifice, and using it against Rumple. Yea, that would have happened if not for Rumple, but he was going to die via Excalibur neck-wound anyway. The writers are hoping we forgot that part. Remember? The reason she turned him into a DO in the first place? Killian was an already dead man who decided to kill two birds with one stone: die, and destroy darkness in the process.
Emma being a dick to rumple and not telling him about Baelfire doesn’t bother me in the least. It’s called karma. The only person i feel bad for is Belle, because now Hades knows about the pregnancy. Also Emma not telling Henry is still confusing me. It’s time to get over your issues Emma, Henry’s feelings on the matter are more important.
CS
The reunion fell flat emotionally because it was meant to. When Emma said, “And you love me for it” (*the “it” being her stubbornness), I expected Hook to say “I do” or something. He said nothing, and his silence is important.
His lack of excitement is in line with the problem that CS has been going through all season. Love is about putting someone else’s needs before yours. Emma has been putting her needs above his all season, because she won’t let him die when his time has come, and he asked her to let him go twice. She ignored it both times.
Regina
As for the Regina/Daniel subplot, I liked that he moved on. It already felt wrapped up when Regina got rid of Zombie!Daniel.
They decided to make a it clear that not everyone’s past enemies/lovers/friends are going to be there. Things are still unrealistic with some of these characters who don’t seem to truly have unfinished business, but they’re establishing that they’re not bringing everyone back just for the hell of it.
Also I almost find it hard to believe that Rumple has killed more people than Regina, given her murder sprees. However, Mrs. Screwball pointed out that maybe of Regina’s victims probably didn’t have unfinished business the way Rumple’s victims would have.
Final Note
It’s almost as if they wrote a lot of this season thinking they might be cancelled. I’m not sure why they would be, because I believe the ratings are fine. But they’ve reached 100ep syndication so you could say that it’s time. 5 seasons is certainly enough in most cases. They could easily wrap up the emma/hook issues, the robin/zelena/pistachio issues, as well as the dark-one-is-vanquished-forever possibility (whether or not rumple dies) and be done with the series. I know that’s not the case and they’ve been renewed for S6, but when they started writing and filming, they didn’t know that.
Best Quotes
“Happy person; tippy stone” - Cruella
“You lot managed to find a whole new way to fail” - Rumple
Do you think what Rumpelstiltskin did was wrong? Do you think Zelena deserved a second chance? (Well, a third one; didn't the Good Witches give her a second chance?) Robert Carlyle once stated in an interview that he was against the idea of RumBelle having children, and that he imagined Rum ending up very much alone. I feel like Rum's kind of going in that direction. Your thoughts?
Wrong? Yea. Do I understand it? Yea. Rumple and Hook are sort of….prone to vengeance. Like being accident prone, except you want to kill people.
I think she was capable of utilizing her second chance, or rather a third chance like you said, under one condition: she can’t have magic. She’s a jealous person and she’s a little childishly petty, but her ability to use magic is what gave her the chance to be truly evil. Without it, she wouldn’t have gone nearly as bad. Angry people can do bad things, but angry people with power can do even worse. In time, she might have become a person capable of reigning in her emotions, and found a way to channel them into something less destructive towards herself and others.
On to your next question:
I love Robert Carlyle so much for saying that. It’s a realistic attitude, because being the way he was for 300 years….nah, I just don’t buy a redemption. His behavior, his mask, that’s all part of who he is now. You were a mask long enough, you start to become it.
He’s be a good father, but once his child gets old enough, what happened with Bae would happen all over again. Rumple can’t change, and his child would try to make him. It worked for Regina, but that doesn’t mean it would work for him. He and Regina went dark for different reasons.
Why is Zelena in love with Rumpelstiltskin? He gave a little attention, and then that's it. He wasn't ever very nice to her, and he's shown no romantic interest in her at all. And yet, it seems like she's been in love with him for years. She was visibly upset when Regina told her that he'd died, and after Rum's failed seduction strategy, she started to cry. Any analyses to offer?
It took a while for me to figure that out tbh. Because the whole flashback episode with him mentoring her made it seem like a platonic love. She was acting like a bratty child, and he was a harsh distant mentor, so I naturally interpreted that as a platonic….almost father-daughter love. Then two episodes later she’s orchestrating a date and putting her cleavage in his face.
However, I think a lot of it makes sense when you factor in some other stuff. Firstly, Zelena was a lot younger when she met him. She thought of him as a father/mentor because that was what she needed in her life at the time. Her own father had just revealed his true feelings, and her mother was dead. She needed a parental person in her life, and Rumple being a teacher to her did just that.
Why did her daughter-like love for him change into romantic/sexual love? Well obviously there’s the attraction factor that just happens as you grow older. As a teen/early20’s person, maybe she didn’t see older men as attractive but now she does.
But maybe more importantly, Zelena has a very obsessive personality, just like Cora and Regina. She became obsessed with Rumple. But as an adult woman now, she no longer needs a parent, she wants a partner. It’s a little creepy, but that’s how I see it. She wants him to fill a certain role in her life. He used to fill her need for a loving father/caretaker, and now she wants him to be her partner. As a side note, she’s a lot like Cora in the sense that her interest is in The Dark One, not Rumple the man.
Did Rumpelstiltskin actually use parts of babies in his spells, or is that just something he had heard of or noted while researching ways to create the curse?
Oh well we don’t really know. From what I remember, which is a lot tbh, there is no canon proof of Rumple ever using baby parts or even implying he used baby parts (that is the creepiest sentence I’ve ever written).
Disclaimer: When I first read that post suggesting Regina’s baby parts quote was about Rumple, I sorta accepted it without thinking it through, but actually it doesn’t fit Rumple at all.
Rumple has only wanted a baby 3 times, but with Cora and Snow, we know exactly what he wanted with them. Cinderella’s baby is where people were unsure and had various theories. My opinion….
I always figured that Rumple went after Cinderella’s baby because he saw the future and knew that those actions would lead him down a path to getting him imprisoned, which is exactly where he wanted to be. He helps her find her prince, and then threatens her child which forces the Charmings, the dwarfs, and Thomas’ father’s kingdom to build a cage for Rumplestiltskin. I assumed it was all an elaborate plan to get himself into that mine prison, because the Seer visions told him that’s where he needed to be.
However, I don’t think Rumple would be willing to cross that line. His evil has limits, and he will torment and abuse teenagers and adults, but I think he’s like Regina and he has a soft spot for children. He spared Robin because Marian was pregnant, so I don’t think he’d be at all willing to kill a baby.
A list of the signs leading up to Snow wanting another baby...
...for those of you that missed them.
2x03
Heartbreak on Snow’s face as she looks back one last time at Emma’s nursery in the EF
2x05
Snow gives an awkward look towards Emma when she refers to Henry as her grandson, and then an even more awkward shrug when Hook shows surprise over that fact. She is uncomfortable with the idea that she already has a grandson despite being young and not having raised a child herself yet.
2x06
This one is debatable, but her mothering instinct was coming on pretty strong when she told Aurora that she would watch over her as she slept. Sounds like a very motherly/parental thing to do, yes?
(I think that Snow was having a hard time getting over the fact that she wakes up from the curse, and the last thing she remembers (sort of) is giving birth to a baby, who is standing in front of her now as a grown adult. Emma isn’t accepting Snow’s motherly behavior not just because they’re the same age, but also because Emma doesn’t know how to accept that type of love. So Snow turned her attention towards someone else, Aurora, while Emma was gone in the giant’s liar)
2x07
This behavior continues when Aurora awakes screaming in the last few minutes of the episode, saying, “It’s okay, it’s okay. It was just another nightmare” while holding her hand.
(Starting in 2x08 Emma starts to lean on Snow emotionally, so Snow is temporarily fulfilled in her need to be a mom.)
2x13
Snow insists that she will not leave SB if Emma won’t come with them, but David says, “Emma can take care of herself”. She is desperate to be a mother, even to a grown adult, whereas David is willing accept the idea, even if he doesn’t like it, that Emma might chose to stay behind even if both her parents want to leave, which is brought up directly in 2x19
(Too much drama for any significant character development. On to S3).
3x01
Emma: “I appreciate you trying to be parents…” Ouch, right? Not succeeding, not just being, only trying.
Snow: “We missed you growing up Emma, and it haunts us every day”
3x02
Snow: “You know Mary Margaret’s a bit formal. You could call me mom if you want.”
...Emma: “I just feel like what I’ve always been, an orphan.”
3x04
Snow: “I have no idea how to comfort my own daughter. It is the first thing a mother learns and I don’t know how.”
Aaaaaand 3x06 - Snow reveals that she wants another child. Are you still surprised?
The writers and fans can claim all they want that Hook doesn’t care about his life, and how he’d only risk his life for love [and revenge], but I think there’s something else being implied here that doesn’t negate his “love or revenge” quote. It’s subtle, but important.
In S2, Hook made quite a few comments about not caring about his death.
2x11
“Do it, do it! Kill me.”
“Rip my heart out like you did Milah’s, and then I’ll finally be ruined with her.”
“Well go ahead crocodile do your worst”
At the end of S2, after he realized that revenge was emptier than he ever expected it to be, Hook’s statements changed. Now, his life may not matter more than love or revenge, but it matters enough that he says these lines:
2x22
“That was before they told me I had to die to get [my revenge].”
"Staring death in the face has made me realize if there’s one thing I want more than revenge, it’s my life.”
3x03
“Pan will have shields against magic. I fear such an attempt would end in your death, and more importantly mine.”
3x11
I thought you’d only risk your life for love or revenge. “One other important thing, me.”
Part of his growth that started at the end of S2, was actually continued, and not dropped by the writers like so many other character arcs. Look, I’m not denying that Emma means a lot to him and he would do anything for her, but the fact that he actually thinks his life is worth a damn, and won’t just sit back and let himself die, is a big step that he made, and I really love the little reminders of that growth.
Thoughts on Felix? Like him being the thing that pan loves most, and how killing him made pan feel?
Pan’s selfishness knows no bounds, so killing Felix probably didn’t affect him much at all. He can appreciate a friend while they’re there, but once they’re gone he isn’t bothered by it.
As for love…well friendship is a sort of love, as Pan said. His feelings about Rumple are mixed I believe, though Pan says otherwise to Felix before he kills him. What he feels for Rumple now is hatred, though he used to love him. What he feels for Felix is pure friendship with no mixed backstory issues or hatred, so it makes sense that he’d kill Felix and not Rumple. I really liked their friendship and it felt real and genuine and strong. Unfortunately for Felix, Pan values himself more.
I actually didn’t like that Pan was originally an adult, let alone Rumple’s father, but I love Pan’s character, so I’ve tried to reconcile the two in my head and get them to fit together, because they seem very different. The biggest issue for me is that we know very little about Malcolm and Rumple’s relationship. Here’s my analysis of what the hell was going on in his head, including a couple headcanons of mine. Also I’ve got a secondary reason why I think Malcolm chose to call himself “Peter Pan”.
Firstly, ChildRumple looks about 10, and I’ll stick with that because it’s an even number. I wasn’t able to find out what the actors birth year was.
Secondly, I’d like to say that the main reason ChildRumple never mentions his mother is because the writers want to keep the focus on the father/son dynamic. This isn’t Owen’s story, where he mentioned a mother specifically because Regina decided she wanted to fill that void. Rumple could have lost his father soon after losing his mother or she could have died in childbirth, but the writers didn’t want to draw attention to it. So…let’s begin.
MALCOLM RAISING RUMPLE
There’re a lot of guesses I could make about why and how long Malcolm was raising Rumple solo. I’d rather not get into that too much. Regardless, Malcolm’s story STILL mirrors Milahs. It took Malcolm years for the build up of parental stress while being ostracized and beaten up by the townsfolk to finally make him want to ditch Rumple so he could escape, but only succeeded in doing it when the perfect opportunity presented itself in the form of Neverland and Shadow. It also took Milah years of ostracization and depression for her to finally make the decision to leave, and only after a perfect opportunity was sitting in her lap for her to take it.
Malcolm seems like the kind of guy who cared for Rumple out of guilt more than love, though definitely both were factors. It's cruel to leave a child on the streets or in an orphanage, so he kept him and raised him, but he raised him well. ChildRumple seems very attached to Malcolm in a way that suggests more than just ‘well he’s my dad’. Part of why I think this is from Rumple’s very tearful reaction to being left at the spinsters. That scene also implies that this would have been the first time his father had left him in the care of someone else, which means Malcolm had a decently active role in parenting, rather than just being the person that supplies food and clothes.
GETTING RID OF RUMPLE
Malcolm explained why Rumple needed to go, because a child can’t have a child. But he also said, “You’re better off without me. I was never meant to be a father”.
Never wanting to be a father influenced how he raised Rumple. How can you give a task all your focus and care when you never truly accepted the responsibility? He was pleading for his son to view this as a blessing, because he assumed his son would turn out better without him (kind hard to do that with a trauma hanging over your head). His reasons were selfish, but in the back of his head his guilt parent conscience was acting up, and he was fooling himself into thinking that everything would be okay.
THE PIED PIPER
The next time they meet, it’s when Pan tries to steal Bae away from him. Given the dialogue I’ll assume that is indeed the first time they’ve seen each other since the abandonment. The fact that Rumple knows Peter Pan’s name and says so to Bae is just a plot hole to me. Before knowing that Pan is Rumple’s father, I figured Pan just liked to play games with people and wanted to test Rumple’s trust in his son…just for the sake of testing him. No reason behind it other than to mess with an old enemies family ties.
With the new information, the question becomes: why would Pan want Bae? Pan sees the future, though it seems to be not in the same way that Rumple does. Pan probably would have known at that point that Bae was going to show up in Neverland anyway, but he might not have known how. So he decides he’ll go visit Bae, and see what he’s like and if he wants to come to Neverland with him. A willing guest is better than a hostage. He wants boys in Neverland who want to be there. Unforunately, that isn’t how it turned out and Rumple takes Bae away from Pan. But Bae ended up in Neverland even when Shadow wasn’t trying to pick him (destiny).
CRUELTY TOWARDS RUMPLE
There was one moment in Skull Rock when what Pan said to Rumple felt genuine:
“I never forgot about you! Why do you think I call myself Peter Pan?”
...
“But I do [care for you].”
After talking for minutes, it makes sense that eventually Rumple would get under Pan’s skin and he would want to defend himself, so he insists that he did love Rumple and still does, even if it kills him because they’re enemies.
Well if he cares about him and still feels guilty, then why be cruel to him? Because he needs to distance himself from Rumple, and a really easy way to let go of your feelings for someone else is to make them hate you. He resented being a father, but he couldn’t help but love Rumple regardless. He shows his love for Rumple in the way he speaks to him in the flashback, in the one genuine moment at Skull Rock, and in the tears in his eyes when Shadow takes Rumple back to the Enchanted Forest.
Over the centuries, Pan may have become a bit delusional, and how could he not, when he used to be an adult but is now a child again. He reinvented his personality, but with memories of his previous life still intact, that’s got to mess with one’s head.
He was disappointed in who his son had become, but still had memories of loving him. The more time that passed between them, the more distant Pan could be towards Rumple.
Pan watched Rumple from afar with his ability to see the future and probably also the present (they never explained how that worked, ugh). He saw what had become of his son as he grew up without him, and was disappointed, but refused to take responsibility for what his absence caused (an extremely insecure son).
Pan plays the role of a parent who sees their child failing, and rather than helping them, spits on them for their inadequacies. Rumple was a very sensitive man and not a tough-minded person, and later in life chose magic as a crutch to make up for his lack of strength, mental and physical. Another way to see it is that Pan’s function for Rumple’s storyline is the opposite of Belle’s: she builds him up and he tears him down. Belle sees Rumple’s sensitivity as a virtue, but Pan sees it as a weakness.
At the end, he was more angry at Rumple than he’d ever been, and wanted to kill Neal and Belle to hurt him, because Rumple had tried to trap him in a box, and then tried to kill him, all over something that happened 300 years ago. Pan has a lot of conflicting feelings about his son, but most of all he just wants him to disappear.
“PETER PAN” NAME & THE LOST BOYS
Pan says he called himself Peter Pan because he still cares for Rumple. I believe him, as I said above I do think Pan loved Rumple but he had to bury that love. However, this is what Malcolm says about the toy:
“I’ve got you a present. A friend: someone to be at your side when I’m away, who will be with you when I cannot.”
…
“Names make things better. They make them real.”
We don’t know exactly when he chose his new name. It could have been when he met the children who visited the island in their dreams. He needed a name that wasn’t his own, because that name carried with it all the memories of his previous life, a life he needed and wanted to forget.
Pan referred to the boys he wanted to take back with him as his new friends. He was lonely and he wanted friends, preferably boys, and he wanted to be their leader. He was at their side while their parents were away. He was there for them when their parents were not. He only took boys that felt unloved and lonely, because they wouldn’t mind leaving their homes forever. He took on the role that the Peter Pan toy did for Rumple when he left Rumple at the spinsters. He chose his new name out of subconscious buried guilt over what he did to his son, because he must have felt like maybe he could make up for what he did by taking care of the children and giving them happy moments in their childhood that they wouldn’t have otherwise had. It doesn’t make up for what he did to Rumple; it just explains what that name meant to Pan. It represented the role he wanted to play.
All he ever wanted as a child was to be carefree and happy, and he was also an unloved boy. He wanted to give to them what he didn’t have. The boys that chose to stay with him in Neverland seemed to have done so of their own choice, and Pan isn’t going to feel bad about taking them away from their parents who didn’t love them.
