why am i so bad at being good?

J. she/they. 23. Black. ISFP. mostly zk, but prone to rarepair brainrot. occasional salt rabbles. Sometimes writer?

[tea-and-la]

And by zuko having something to gain by switching sides (romantic love in this case) his redemption arc isnt as impactful, he had EVERYTHING to loose and nothing to gain when he joined the gaang which is why it was so effective.

this type of argument from antis is so annoying because it doesn't even make sense. katara isn't zuko's "something to gain" and it feels like a poor attempt to give zutara a similar level of "trophy" as the "hero gets the girl" trope. zuko switched sides because of his own change in heart. this is a quote from the day of Black sun:

No, I've learned everything! And I've had to learn it on my own! Growing up, we were taught that the Fire Nation was the greatest civilization in history. And somehow, the War was our way of sharing our greatness with the rest of the world. What an amazing lie that was. People around the world are terrified of the Fire Nation. They don't see our greatness. They hate us! And we deserve it! We've created an era of fear in the world. And if we don't want the world to destroy itself, we need to replace it with an era of peace and kindness.

this is not "i'm joining team avatar because i think katara is attractive and i want to be with her."

zuko and katara's relationship (canonically friends) is not predicated on obligation, so this anti argument doesn't make sense. in TSR, he asks what he can do to make it up to her and she gives him an IMPOSSIBLE task -- effectively saying that she will never forgive him. He isn't "gaining" anything because he had to earn her friendship/respect; it's why he was so shocked when she hugged him at the end of TSR. although, there is a ship that does have obligation written into it canonically - (nodding at "avatar's girl for example), but we never hear y'all antis bring ts up.

a potential romantic!zutara relationship would come after his redemption arc; and it doesn't make sense to retroactively trivialize the growth that he went through to get to that place.

also these arguments always feel disingenious because you would never catch these antis saying that zukka would erase zuko's redemption arc. like, we can't even keep consistency.

[pokidokieships]

What if I said the sudden hate and vitriol towards zutara in recent years is linked to the rise in conservatism… stay with me now… I can’t help but notice it because of the arguments I see such as “Water Tribe & Fire Nation can never be together… it’s way better that Mai & Zuko are married as they are both Fire Nation” or “It’s fine that Katara is a stay at home mom & healer… it doesn’t matter that she doesn’t play a pivotal role, go on to do anything great after the war…”

[livelovelingwen]

Hot take: Aang hate is forced atp

Some of yall talk about a kid like he's the devil or sum

[sokkastyles]

I actually don't see the screenshot saying Aang's the devil.

What I see is:

1) Implying he will go into the Avatar State if a girl doesn't return his affections (already implied by the show)

2) Implying that he values Katara as only a potential girlfriend and not as a friend (already implied by the show)

[livelovelingwen]

Disclaimer: this is long, badly explained, and I repeat myself. If something comes off as agressive, please tell me, this was not my intention.

"If I hadn't blocked my chakra, I'd probably be in the Avatar State right now!"

Out of context, it could sound like Aang is upset about Katara and that he's saying he'd enter the Avatar State if a girl doesn't return his feelings. The problem is that in context, it's more than that.

First, in The Ember Players episode, Aang was already upset with the play before the whole "the Avatar?, he's like a brother to me" scene, because he disliked the way he was portrayed. But then, in addition the play also brings up his uncertainty about Katara's feelings, so he leaves. What I mean to say here it's that his response to Katara with the "I'd probably be in the avatar state" it's not just because the play implies that his feelings are unrequited.

If someone wants to argue the line is awkward or that the writers shouldn't have put it like that, that's fair criticism, not saying the oposite.

"We kissed at the invasion, and I thought we were gonna be together."

You say that it would imply that Aang only values Katara as a potential girlfriend.

But for me, it shows that: Aang has romantic feelings for Katara, he wished that the Invasion kiss could mean they were moving toward a relationship, and he wants clarification because he's confused.

But none of that inherently means he doesn't value her friendship. Aang having feelings for Katara doesn't automatically means that he can't consider her a friend, platonic love and romantic love can coexist.

You can absolutely criticize the way Aang handles the conversation in that episode, (especially the kiss at the end when Katara told her she was confused) That's a valid and common criticism, even among people who like Aang. But "he wants clarification about their romantic status" and "he only sees her as a potential girlfriend" are two completely different claims.

But more importantly

My post was about people who constantly villainize Aang, and I accompanied it with an image of someone saying that Aang is a 'nice guy', which implies that his kindness isn't sincere and that his behavior towards Katara has just ulterior motives.

Aang does have flaws, but saying that he's secretly a "nice guy? For me a "nice guy" refers to someone who fakes kindness (to girls most of the time) just in hope to have a romantic relationship with a girl. It's someone who believes kindness entitles him to romance and only acts this way to people he considers potential partners.

But Aang is a sincerely kind character, he sees good in people, even showing empathy to enemies, which can become a  character flaw.

He does gets frustrated, insecure at times, and handles some situations poorly and I don't say people can't criticize him, but my point was that there are people who interpret all his mistakes in the worst way possible and conclude that he'sa bad person.

Again, this is a fandom, so people should have the right to criticize the characters of pieces of media. But I feel like Aang gets a lot of hate for a lot less then other characters, like the same standards are not applied to him. His flaws are exaggerated and then presented as his sole character instead of being just a part of his character.

That's why I made the og post. And my comment "Some of yall talk about a kid like he's the devil or sum" was not meant to come off as a way to excuse all his actions and errors because he's a kid. It wasn't meant to argue that Aang is a flawless character, it was more of a sort of vent post because i don't understand why some fandom interpretations portray Aang in a  such negative way, with takes that are like "Aang is a 'nice guy' who only sees Katara as a prize." or the "Aang just used Katara to have children"

[sokkastyles]

I think it's good that you've changed your tune, but your original post did NOT come across as a reasonable counter argument and did not get across that you think people are allowed to critique Aang, it came across as a hate post. You screenshot a post that made a valid critique and then stated that that person was saying Aang was the devil.

I also will push back against your arguments because Katara not returning his feelings WAS a huge part of why he hated the play. Throughout it, he reacts angrily whenever the play implies that Katara does not love him, not just in one scene, and nods when the Zuko actor says that Katara is "the Avatar's girl." That definitely implies the entitlement you've described above associated with the Nice Guy.

It's also wrong to say Nice Guys are faking being nice and therefore Aang can't be one. A lot of guys like this actually believe they are genuinely being nice and that is what makes them believe they deserve a girl's love. While it is true that this behavior is anything but nice, it is counter productive to focus on how nice the guy is, because the point is that niceness does not earn you access to a woman's body, and as we established, Aang DOES think that Katara should be his. Aang DOES nod at the statement that Katara is "the Avatar's girl." Aang DOES get angry when the play implies that he is happy with being just friends with Katara. Aang DOES demand to know when Katara will be his girlfriend and kisses her without her consent when she does not give him the answer he wants.

So I think the screenshot is pretty accurate, and behavior like this deserves to be criticized. Aang may believe he is genuinely a nice guy, but he doesn't really value Katara's friendship and his behavior hurts her when she doesn't become his girlfriend because he wants her to.

Think about this from Katara's perspective. A guy that you thought was your friend makes it clear to you that your friendship is not enough for him and interrogates you asking why you aren't his girlfriend, and blames you for the things an oversexed actress onstage does. Then your friend kisses you without your consent and violates your stated boundary. Doesn't seem very nice, does it?

It's also not very nice to make hate posts about zutara shippers, screenshot their posts, say that their opinions are forced and that they're calling a character the devil, and then say that your "intention" was not to come off as aggressive. Yes it was. You just thought it was okay to dehumanize and attack people for criticizing a fictional character.

[tea-and-la]

to add onto what sokkastyles has beautifully said, we also can't ignore the influence of the adult male creators as well as other scenes in the show. specifically the scene where the prisoners tell aang verbatim that he is a nice guy and that katara will come around. the best way for the show to prove that aang was okay with being "just friends" with katara would've been after EIP (and an apology), but of course, instead, the narrative thinks it's enough to just have katara initiate the finale kiss with no dialogue.

[thesehalcyondays]

Book 3 | That painful moment when we saw Zuko and Katara reach for the other from their POV *sob*

[te-al-latte]

I just realized something, you see, I love the fact that Zuko jumped in front of lightning for Katara cause it shows how Zuko is as a person, not because of the implication of Zutara or whatever. Yes, it’s a beautiful scene, and it shows how strong their friendship has grown. It shows Zuko’s selflessness. But let’s say it wasn’t Katara, like maybe it was Toph or Sokka or even Suki, will Zuko do the same? A 100% yes. He’d do it without thinking, because that’s just how Zuko is.

You know what’s the best part about the Agni Kai that screams ZUTARA? It’s these; Zuko reaching out for Katara even with all the pain he’s in and Katara reaching for him in desperation even with Azula on the offensive.

From a storytelling/storyboarding perspective, these frames show that they were each other’s priorities even in the midst of the chaos. 

[themoonandhersun]

the way zuko’s hand is shaking from the pain but he’s still reaching out to her. katara’s hand coated in water ….. ofc it’s to fight against azula- but also? you just know she wanted to heal him right then and there …. oh my zutara☹️

[tea-and-la]

i feel like her hand was coated bc she saw he was hurt and *forgot* azula was there and that there was a whole agni kai going on bc wanted to immediately get to him. her hand doesn’t look like it’s preparing to waterbend but then she has to cause azula snaps her back to reality. 😅

[demaparbat-hp]

Looking (dis)honorably

[half-phantom-hiyori]

That zk-anti person saw this and was inspired #sarcasm.

Oh, you know, these stupid victims of colonialism who live in fantasies. Because if you don't agree with me it means you are stupid.

To jump on USA as a Russian is certainly a choice. Russia is an imperialistic country with a long story of colonialism and with all that entails. And at the same time it's not only slavs who participate in Russian war aggressions, so this argument about minorities of colour also works here. You really think you know american politics so well that you decide to use USA as an example? I'm not an american, btw.

Yes, are we sure it is appropriate to equate (equate, not compare) absolutely real events with fictional? Do you have at least a bit of respect for these people? This is not a fucking cartoon.

Remember, this person wants you to take them seriously. Anti-coloniser made-up slur.

Yeah, a canon story about slav/inuit or brit/inuit e-t-l and not a hypothetical love story between people of fictional (heavily inspired but still fictional) ethnicities when? Ah yes, such stories exist and unlike Zutara they are harmful in many ways, you just don't want to pay attention.

This person tried to be so woke she ended up looking stupid. Because this is stupid, ignorant and disrespectful behaviour. And i know she is an indigenous woman, but i'm also an indigenous woman. Fictional things are not real. Don't try to educate somebody when you don't even have basic common sense and empathy.

[sokkastyles]

I stayed off that post when someone sent it to me because there were some poc zutara shippers who felt they brought up some valuable points, but given the recent behavior of zutara antis I can say that I knew this would happen, because it always does. You jest, but this is an example of the kinds of posts that empower people like zutaranti. The rhetoric in this post is also directly accusing poc zutara shippers of being some kind of race traitors, which, again, is meant to encourage bullying, not meant to protect poc.

Also, yeah, people who use "ash-maker" like they're performing activism by using a fake slur against fantasy people is very hard to take seriously. And also tone deaf, since they're using it as the equivalent to like, cracker, when Zuko is Asian. There are real slurs that are used in the real world for people who look like Zuko, but there's nothing progressive about using them.

[half-phantom-hiyori]

You see, it's not about a ship war, but i'll make a post about colonialism in regards to shipping still. Because why make a post about sometimes very questionable writing of the show which is canon when there is a whole non-canon ship (which is perceived very differently by different people). And we will focus not on calling out harmful rhetoric in general, but on Zutarians specifically. We will focus more on fictional suffering than real people. But it's not about ship wars, no.

Also, Zutara kills :(

[tea-and-la]

thank you for sharing your perspectives @half-phantom-hiyori

i was one of the people who responded to this post, and got accused of trivializing things to ship wars and also told that i shouldn't speak because i am american, despite the fact that i am BLACK first (and only tbh). i made a separate post about it, but reading their post back, i'm even more uncomfortable, and not in a "need to learn your privilege" sort of way. though, i was told that i should leave my comment up to "be an example" to other people.

@sokkastyles is exactly right - this is the kind of thing that emboldened zutaranti to make these real world associations, which according to zutaranti's private DMs, "would be good slander."

to say "Crown Prince of KKK" and to immediately dismiss anything *I* said as a Black person (from the race/ethnic group that what historically targeted by the KKK) is unfathomable. to talk to *me* about "something that kills" as if that's not also what my people face (and have faced) for centuries.

also i just vehemently oppose the concept of portraying BIPOC who ship zk as "lost" or somehow wanting to validate their humanity to a "shadowy oppressor." blind generalizations are harmfully reductive in and of themselves, period, but it is entirely possible that someone just has a different perspective on a pairing. doesn't have to be more complicated than that. i find it offensive to even imply that zks IRL would be vying for the attention of yts or other oppressors, and if anyone knew me IRL, they'd know that that's the last thing i'd do.

as @half-phantom-hiyori mentioned, i also commented about how these conversations should (but never do) extend to zkka and zkang. i was told that it's "different." and recently, there was a post on twitter where a jtko shipper claimed that jet's colonization was "not nearly as bad" as katara's. and not only is it false, but it is strange to create a trauma ranking system to justify shipping. also it completely invalidates jet's trauma (which is something zkkas do too when they claim that sokka would be "fine" dating zuko even though he and katara have the same mother.

but even this part, "welcoming subjugated group into the imperial economic structures with the purpose of neutering resistance" does not describe fanon or even canon zutara at all. by the end of the series, "the resistance" has won. katara and aang are his friends and zuko is actively contributing to pushing the nations forward. he isn't silencing them. and i'll never read the comics, but i know that zuko even makes a failsafe by asking aang to k!ll him if he ever goes too far.

if it were to fit that analogy, it would have to be something like "zuko joined the group to manipulate them (lying that he was going to be their "inside guy") before taking his place on the throne with Ozai. some time later, he brings katara and aang there under false pretenses to think that he was 'on their side' and makes *some* small changes to gain their trust (all the while, continuing control of the earth kingdom + planning to take over the WT)."

[tea-and-la]

it's 2 AM and i'm thinking about the cognitive dissonance of antis saying that zutara's (hypothetical) romantic relationship would uphold a harmful oppressed dynamic while being fine with their friendship.

i feel like part of this stems from people perceiving friendship/platonic love as "less intense/less committed" than romantic relationships, which... feels a bit patriarchial and heteronormative to me. IRL it can be very common for friendships to outlast romantic partners. friendship is deeply intimate and informed by mutual trust and respect. but also, these takes seem to assume that there is a limit to katara's forgiveness or that her forgiveness was not actually genuine. it's predicated on fan assumption that katara and zuko's friendship would dim over time. however, katara isn't just tolerating zuko nor does she seem to have residual discomfort with his presence.

when katara looks at zuko, imo, it is not likely that she sees Ozai/his nation. she likely sees her friend who almost died for her and the one she thinks is stiff/humorless and tries to get to "lighten up."

[janadoesstuffwrong]

It's kinda their thing

[opheliaaesque]

lol…that acc finally being held accountable …….still doesn’t erase all the weeks of vile, horrid, racist/misogynistic dogpiling and harassment towards zks…..still doesn’t change the fact that thousands of kas supported her behavior and enabled her through constantly acting like her henchmen and just…. happily joining in her echo chambers….downright supported her racist behavior until it was undeniable and in-the-face then reducing it to “ship wars” or “both sides did too much” or “let’s not be as bad as zks now” ……..u all move so weird……. can’t apologize for shit without stumbling to save face

[sokkastyles]

Wasn't Jet's entire family murdered by the fire nation?????

It's time to admit that you just hate women.

Like when you're okay with shipping Zuko with every person who has been oppressed by the fire nation EXCEPT the person he actually worked to make amends to and was forgiven by, there is something amiss.

[avatar--fanart]

Onward by xcgirl08

[sokkalore]

mailee content in 2025…. god is real

[arctik-fox]

INKTOBER day 8: reckless

[tea-and-la]

Being Black in ATLA Fandom

TW: violence, slavery, lynching

i recently had an interaction that made me reflect on what it is like to be Black in ATLA (or any) fandom. In the exchange, it was presumed that because I live in America, i don't get to speak. While I don't particularly enjoy attempts to be silenced, and have experienced it numerous times throughout my life, it is incredibly harmful to invalidate the Black experience in America.

My people were violently stolen from their countries, sold and dehumanized in unspeakable ways over centuries. The cruelty of slavery is unfathomable and has been getting erased/swept under the rug for decades as "that was so long ago." Even after slavery ended, the brutal nature of Jim Crow laws and sundown towns continued. Picnics were a place of public lynchings where a whole family, including the children, were brought to watch, take photos, and souvenirs. there are likely families to this day that have white hoods passed down through generations. lynching was not made a federal crime until 2022. Since then, Black individuals have continued to be found hanging from trees, including Juliana Nzita in Charlotte NC.

i think everyone should pick up a fucking book or visit an African-American history museum. Everyone likes to remember the peaceful nature of the Civil Rights Movement, but no one likes to discuss the brutality those non-violent activists faced--dog attacks and being hosed down so forcefully that they flew back several yards with their skin seared off. Activists being explicitly targeted by the police and the government. Murders like Emmett Till, with mounds of evidence, have all charges dropped. Black people creating their own towns and having them burnt down because their oppressors didn't want them to have NOTHING. We were (and are still) openly discriminated against systematically in every aspect of living. When i was 5, my sister's best friend told her that she couldn't be friends anymore because "her mom doesn't like Black people."

As a Black person today, anti-Blackness still affects interactions that i have. i am terrified to drive to or through certain states in the U.S. as a medical student, i have been treated differently than my peers; i've had a nursing manager report me for being "rude and offending her" despite complying with her wishes. Her words were superior to mine because, subsequently, my course director wrote this in my evaluation as "lacking interdisciplinary professionalism" despite the fact that he did not witness the interaction. He checked on the nursing manager's feelings weeks later and not mine -- despite the fact that I left the meeting with him in tears. He wrote a 4 paged letter of every "insult" he thought of me including that I didn't knock on his open office door before entering, despite that I verbally asked if i could come in. Through all of this, i was told that it was not a microaggression and did not receive support. These circumstances could have derailed my entire future (and still might affect my future bc i have not matched into residency yet). Once i match into residency, statistics like Black residents being 4x as likely to be dismissed from programs, await me.

So no, I don't *personally* like to be reminded of the painful history of my ancestors in the fandom space where I try to escape the realities. I don't like to be told that what i am saying is fake "niceties" because i genuinely feel as if everyone should speak their truth and are valid for the way they feel about shipping within ATLA fandom. That does not extend to harrassing people. i don't think anyone who is BIPOC should be told to be silent/deferent in these conversations. there is a reason that BIPOC is acronymed this way, and it goes beyond shipping.

[thats-so-eyeconic]

One thing I will never understand is people hating on Fiyero for being mad at Glinda behind the podium during Thank Goodness. Like yes, he was being hypocritical. Yes, he sounded a bit rude. All valid points. But what people are missing is that he didn’t randomly start criticizing Glinda for not doing anything. He sounds annoyed at first, but he’s not mad at her, he’s mad at what the people are saying. He keeps the same frustration on his face from when he first hears the rumors to when they first talk behind the podium. He criticizes her because she’s lying to him (when she tells him why she has to stay), and he knows the truth. And she admits that he knows the truth. He also only criticizes her again when she says that everybody would choose popularity over the right thing. And he doesn’t act like he is superior to her in this, he points out that Elphaba is morally superior to Glinda right now, and he also doesn’t bring Elphaba up just to make Glinda angry. It is because she says, “maybe I can’t, but who could.” And he knows Elphaba could. That is a fact. Also, yes. He shouldn’t have been fake dating her. That was his mistake, but he is allowed to be upset when a marriage is forced on him publicly. He’s allowed to be upset at hearing the way people are talking about their friend. He doesn’t abandon Glinda, he asks her to leave with him, but she says she can’t, and so he leaves because he “can’t just stand there grinning.”

I understand getting mad at Fiyero for being underdeveloped, being the token man that comes in between a female friendship, and leading Glinda on in a relationship for years. What I don’t understand is people trying to villainize all his actions and make Glinda be a perfect saint who has been wronged. Glinda is a perfectly imperfect character and it is what makes her such a good character in Wicked. She’s not perfect, she has hurt people, she’s trying to become Glinda the Good. Let her have that arc.

Let women be morally grey!!!!! I’m begging you!!!!

[zutarasoulmates]

This is wild to say like... do they really think they can just "destroy" a fanon ship??? Your so called "power" ain't gonna do shit

[sokkastyles]

I like to read this in an Azula voice. We should send it to Grey DeLisle.

[soopersara]

I'm no Grey DeLisle, but I have free will, a microphone, and audacity*

Visit Original Link

* the audio editing program. Although I do have the other kind too.

[tea-and-la]

we need to get to the real reason why antis claim that zuko’s part in TSR was only to manipulate forgiveness from katara. it’s because they don’t have HALF the effort into reconciliation from their mc towards katara when he’s in conflict with her. Not after burning her (accidentally), yelling at her in the desert (and the day before the final battle), after kissing her in EIP, and i’m sure there are others. every apology is “implied.”