General That 70s Show humor and creativity by MistyMountainHop That '70s Show copyright The Carsey-Werner Company, LLC and Twentieth Century Fox Home Entertainment, LLC. That '70s Show Essays That '70s Show Diary Entries That '70s Show Message Board on Fan Forum
Saw an earlier post where you mentioned always shipping Fez with Rhonda. Agreed! Adored her character and thought she would have been such a great addition to the group! And liked the role she portrayed in your story Beneath a Shattered Sky and thought it suited her so well! (btw, that story was so intense at times, and absolutely LOVED it!)
What is it about Rhonda that you like as a character? She is truly one of my favorites!
Thank you for your comments about Beneath a Shattered Sky! I love that you loved that story. 😊♥️ Rhonda was so much fun to write, and she always is ... and I cannot say more about that because spoilers. 👀
First, some history. She's called Big Rhonda by many of the characters -- which is an unfortunate holdover from her being originally an off-screen character in season 3, someone nebulous who is used as a punchline. She's introduced in "It's a Wonderful Life" (4x01), an episode filmed during season 3's production. Her characterization in that ep is negative, and her weight is depicted as a character flaw.
Then she's introduced into the real T7S universe in "Hyde Gets the Girl" (4x04), another episode produced during season 3. But her characterization is softened. Her weight and height are judged by Red, but Fez's response, "Fez loves them big or small. Fez loves them all!" acts a counter to that judgement. He sees Rhonda, and he's attracted to all of who she is.
As season 4 progresses, the show continues to affirm that judging Rhonda by her weight, height, or how she acts and presents gender-wise is wrong. The name Big Rhonda disappears, and she's simply called Rhonda.
I enjoy her character for many reasons. She's complex. She truly doesn't fit binary gender expectations, which is a point of insecurity for her. When, at her request, Jackie and Donna try to make her physically fit into what a woman "should" look like, Fez rejects it. He wants Rhonda to be who she is, not to confirm to any artificial gender beauty standard.
She's both confident and vulnerable. She's experienced sexually but has never had emotionally meaningful sex. She has a tough time telling Fez what she needs but pushes through her fear. She can kick Kelso's ass and takes no shit from Jackie (after the makeover episode). She's playful, funny, and gruff.
Her background is also interesting. She grew up on a Mississippi dirt farm. I would've liked to know more about that.
She's a fully realized character, which gives me -- as a writer -- a lot to play with. She's an asset to the basement group. Had she remained on the show, and the writers wrote at their best, she could've had a significant, positive impact on all the characters and their relationships.
Above, Donna is the one who stops the fantasy instead of Jackie, who dies so in the AP.
Above, Eric mentions Zen. 👀
Fez's line about Jackie (the last line of dialogue in the above page) in the TD is softened from the one in the RFD, where he describes her in quite misogynistic and nasty terms.
Above, the stage directions for Randy and his male date are far more obviously affectionate. The network likely ordered that to be toned down (typical for the '90s).
In the RFD, Hyde says the line, "We are so cool to be okay with it!" which softens his later lines into using the ignorant teen language of the time rather than characterizing him as purely homophobic. The RFD gives Eric a different line that shows he's cool with the gay couple.
That being said, Hyde has a line earlier in both the TD and RFD where he acts like Kelso's hitting in him and tells Kelso he's into girls. The RFD's line is slightly different than the TD's version. The TD's has Hyde tell Kelso explicitly it's not the first time he's said to Kelso he's into girls. The RFD has Hyde tell Kelso he's into girls without any indication it's a reminder.
No significant change in Jackie and Kelso's scene from the AP except Jackie calling him David. But her use of the word lover here takes on a different meaning since the TD affirms several times throughout that Jackie and Kelso regularly have sex.
Well I mean they contradict each other lol, either Eric was supposed to never go to Africa and hid out for days or he did go and came back a literal different person. I’ve just never heard the version you told and am wondering where you heard that.
These things are rumors to me unless there’s a source (and not a blog or forum post as the source but like an article or something that can be objectively verified). You say it’s easily accessible well great, I’m just asking for some links as someone who is newer to this and is trying to ‘do my research’ as you encourage ! Bc I haven’t been able to verify any of this info. The interviews you’ve posted before and stuff I would love to see those how can I find them?
I am actually the same person who asked a different blog about the season 8 show runners bc everything I’ve been able to verify shows that they were not new. I got a pretty unfriendly response, and then another account rudely put me on blast. I’m a huge Jackie/Hyde lover and I was told the fandom for this show was small but warm and friendly and I’m so confused not gonna lie.
I totally understand. I am all about sources and truth, not hearsay, and I'm sorry you received hostility in return for asking reasonable questions.
With your prompting, I remember now that S8 Eric went to Africa but didn't stay very long. He returned very soon after leaving, a week or a month. A week seems more familiar. And he did sneak back home, and Donna was shocked upon seeing him.
While I can't possibly link you to every single source (again, the links and transcripts are buried in hundreds of thousands of posts), I can link you to some of what I posted of those sources on this blog.
This post.
This post.
This post.
This post.
This post.
This post.
This post.
This post.
This post.
This post.
Also check out this post; then, for more posts like it, click on the tag #cut dialogue
That's all I have the energy to do. The rest of the sources, again, you'll find buried in over a decade of message board posts (reports, interviews, website links). I hope the posts I've linked here are interesting! 😊
Think you have some of your wires crossed. The rumor I’ve always heard is that the writers toyed with the idea of Eric going to Africa but returning in season 8 as “a changed man” after his time in Africa, aka as Josh Myers.
In general when you post stuff like that it would be helpful if you posted your source. Feels like it’s often “trust me bro”
I don't deal in rumors. I've cited my sources many times over the years, including news reports about T7S, information given from people who worked on the show, interviews with people on the show, reports from people who went to T7S tapings and spoke to various producers, etc.
I believe the S8 Eric is a both/and situation. I remember the "changed man" line now that you've mentioned it. That doesn't negate his ultimately scrapped but filmed return scene as described in my earlier post. It fills it out more.
When I became moderator of the T7S message board at Fan Forum, I read tens of thousands of posts (actually, read and skimmed closer to a hundred thousand posts) made soon after the show began to air to the time before I joined the message board as a poster in 2010. I found a massive amount of information about the behind-the-scenes doings of the show, websites whose runners were connected to the show and reported in contract negotiations among other aspects, transcribed interviews with cast, creators and crew; links to video interviews, read posts by WV who'd visited the board for a brief time, read numerous tapings reports from fans. The list goes on and on.
Those hundreds of thousands of posts still exist (I'm including those from 2010 and onward), easily accessible. One can also use the Internet Wayback Machine, as I did, to visit the many defunct T7S websites and the original incarnation of Fan Forum (i.e. Forum 4 Fans). Spend a few months reading the massive amount of information. And if you have the specific kind of eidetic memory I do (although some details eventually slip through the cracks -- or become passive memory rather than active -- about older topics as I study newer ones), you can pull up facts like opening a file on a computer.
See this post for more on this topic. But the above paragraph explains where I've gotten my sources. I've listed and linked a few specific ones (like transcribed interviews) on this blog over the years. I'm not going to scour 100,000 Fan Forum posts, etc. to link the source for the information I have.
As my post about the S8 showrunners today describes, I was mistaken about who they were because I hadn't done my research. The idea that people who'd worked in the show so long could utterly misunderstand it and hate its seven years of development was incomprehensible to me. Hence, the quite late fact-based (not emotion-based) correction.
No one has to trust me about the accuracy of my information. I simply share what I know. It's up to the individual to trust it or verify it themselves, using the resources I've used myself.
Did they really think a show without 'Eric Forman' would be successful? Or maybe they found out the actor portraying Eric was leaving after they renewed for a Season 8? Eric was the glue.
I watched the first episode, and then stopped. I didn't even watch the series finale.
I'm not naive to think money wasn't a motivator for an 8th season, but not having Eric - he was the central, integral piece. Not that the others weren't valued, but the show without him, is just a different show.
Do you think that was a common viewpoint?
Thanks!!
T7S originally recast Eric with Josh Meyers. Focus groups didn't react well to it. The original story at the start of S8 is that Eric doesn't actually go to Africa but hides for a few days, just like he does in S6 after he doesn't show up for his wedding rehearsal dinner.
He reveals himself cautiously while Donna's in the Formans' driveway. She's shocked and angry and happy. Eric explains what he did, and their relationship in Point Place continues.
Because of the ficus groups' bad reaction, the character of Randy is created for Josh to play. But if one studies his dialogue and delivery in S8, it's Eric's character voice. The writers wrote Randy as a "cooler" version of Eric.
Eric is the main protagonist of T7S. Season 7 being the original end of the series meant TG and AK accepted (more) movie roles. The showrunners (Filgos) signed on as showrunners for a new show.
No Eric in the show is like pulling on a loose thread of a sweater and the whole thing unraveling. Unfortunately, the three writers who were promoted to be the S8 showrunners (Mark Hudis, Rob DesHotel, and Dean Batali) didn't understand the show or liked the seven years of character development of the show they'd worked on for seven years (Hudis) or six years (DesHotel and Batali). They chose to reboot the series to their distorted understanding of season 1, as they stated in the interview (TV Guide, iirc) I read before S8 aired.
During my phone call with Prissy aka @that70sshowgoldencouple , we were both shocked that these writers are the people who said in the aforementioned interview that they never liked Jackie and Hyde's relationship and didn't understand it. That they were antagonists in season 1 and the new showrunners were reverting them back to their natural state (clearly, none of them paid close attention to S1 or "Prom Night" [1x19]).
I simply couldn't believe anyone who'd worked on the show that long would hold that point of view, which is why I mistakenly believed for years that the S8 showrunners were outside hires. I've been saying this often lately, but research is vital.
Had the three S8 showrunners been tuned into the fanbase, they would've used Jackie and Hyde's relationship to help fill the vacuum Eric and Kelso's characters left. Instead, they created a new female character -- a stripper named Sam(antha) -- who is written from and for the male gaze. She has no complexity or interiority. She exists to sever Jackie and Hyde and to attract the coveted straight allosexual male demographic.
Here is the rundown of the T7S episodes the three showrunners wrote before S8 (and relevant commentary).
Mark Hudis
"Drive-In" (1x08)
"Stolen Car" (1x14)
"Hyde Moves In" (1x24)
"Red's Birthday" (2x10)
"The First Time" (2x16)
"Parents Find Out" (2x19)
"Roller Disco" (3x05)
"Hyde's Christmas Rager" (3x09)
"Holy Craps!" (3x20)
"Bye-Bye Basement" (4x05)
"Jackie Says Cheese" (4x13)
"Hyde's Birthday" (4x23) -- a relevant J/H episode despite the intention being Kelso's punchline, "Damn, Jackie -- stop kissing other guys!"
"Black Dog" (5x09) -- a significant characterizing episode for Hyde, as an individual, his love for Jackie, and his relationship with Jackie. Yes, it retcons Hyde's well-established ability to give Jackie and others verbal comfort, but it also establishes that Hyde won't give up trying to help Jackie feel better no matter how many times he fails and reaffirms that he'll make sacrifices to help others, particularly Jackie.
"Hey, Hey, What Can I Do?" (5x18) -- another significant J/H episode.
"Nobody's Fault but Mine" (5x23) -- a very significant episode for J/H, except that Hyde is more concerned about losing Jackie than having hurt her. See this meta for details.
"The Acid Queen" (6x04) -- another significant and characterizing episode for J/H.
"Going Mobile" (6x24)
"Mother's Little Helper" (7x07)
"It's All Over Now" (7x15) -- another significant J/H episode. Keep in mind, however, that S8 was in the midst of being greenlit; contracts are being negotiated; the writers scramble to rewrite S7 episodes once S8 is fully greenlit.
"Till the Next Goodbye" -- the original series finale, rewritten to erase Hyde's proposal to Jackie and add a Hyde/Jackie/Kelso cliffhanger. The Filgos, I believe, had a hand in the rewrite since they wanted a ready-made story arc to begin S8 with: the reconciliation of J/H. Hudis, DesHotel, and Batali went in a completely different direction.
Rob DesHotel & Dean Batali*
*They were writing partners during seasons 2-4
"Sleepover" (2x08)
"Kiss of Death" (2x20)
"Holy Crap!" (2x23)
"Eric's Panties" (3x06)
"Donna's Panties" (3x15)
"Fez Dates Donna" (3x21)
"An Eric Forman Christmas" (4x12)
"Donna Dates a Kelso" (4x16)
"That '70s Musical" (4x24)
"Baby Don't You Do It" (6x14)
Rob DesHotel
"Hot Dog" (5x07)
"The Battle of Evermore" (5x17)
"Immigrant Song" (5x24) -- a significant J/H episode.
"The Magic Bus" (6x03) -- One of the best J/H episodes in the series because it reveals many kinds of intimacy between the audience hasn't seen before. Hard to believe the writer of this episode could hate J/H's relationship, yet direct statements in that interview and S8 prove it.
"Won't Get Fooled Again" (6x13)
"Sparks" (6x22) -- Not a big J/H episode, but it has one significant scene that affirms their love for each other.
"Rip This Joint" (7x06)
"Can't You Hear Me Knocking?" (7x13)
"Short and Curlies" (7x24)
Dean Batali
"Thank You" (5x08)
"When the Levee Breaks" (5x15)
"No Quarter" (5x20) -- considering that S8 humiliates Jackie at every turn, has everyone she loves betray her, and has her end the series sweeping hair at Fez's salon to "humble her" rather than let her follow one of her many dreams, this episode's characterization of Jackie as an ungrateful spiked brat except at the very end aligns with the S8 showrunners' (of whom Dean Batali is one) clear hatred (and misunderstanding) of Jackie's character.
"Join Together" (6x02) -- the first badly-written Jackie/Hyde reconcilation episode.
"Sally Simpson" (6x12)
"My Wife" (6x23)
"Let's Spend the Night Together" (7x02) -- besides being the episode where Hyde meets W.B., it characterizes Jackie as being protective and adoring of Hyde.
"Winter" (7x11) -- Hyde is unrecognizable as himself in this episode in his treatment toward Jackie. Perhaps this episode allowed Batali to express his true feelings about the J/H pairing. This is, of course, speculation. Combining "Winter" with the pre-S8 interview, and J/H's treatment in S8, however, it is a valid suggestion.
I never noticed but in the scene where Jackie cries to Donna that she wishes her daddy could buy him (Hyde) for her, Donna makes an expression like she agrees or can relate. What do you think that’s about ?
Yea I guess I just dont think every scene and character needs to be filtered through this modern moral lens, it’s unfunny and exhausting
Again, agreed.
I watch shows of different genres spanning sixty decades of television (mostly U.S. but also Canadian and from the UK). I could write a long-ass essay about what I've observed, but it's too varied and complex. The topic beyond the scope of this blog.
A binary, either/or lens leads to reductive analyses and doesn't illuminate truth or reflect reality.
I think sometimes we can analyze too much and focus on political correctness and not offending anyone ever, to the point that all the funny is sucked out of this show 😐
Not disagreeing. I love The Office (U.S.), for example, and despite how popular (and lucrative) it remains, it couldn't be made today. All in the Family -- hell, all of Norman Lear's groundbreaking sitcoms that explored and confronted social issues through the genre of comedy would be viewed today through a binary, not nuanced, lens.
My point about Caroline is about dehumanizing her and, as @starryjonquil accurately replied, stigmatizing people with mental illness. That's a distinct issue from political correctness.
To use The Office as my example again, the show is written so that the audience knows what Michael Scott is saying (and doing) is wrong. The other characters affirm this fact. Yet his ridiculousness is still hilarious, and it doesn't make me think, "Hmm, X-culture or X-people are what Michael thinks they are." Or that how he approaches certain subjects and people are correct.
Archie Bunker from All in the Family is the prototype for this kind of character. And Meathead is his foil.
What do you think the group’s fashion would look like in the 80’s?
The early '80s, little would change for Eric, Kelso, Hyde -- except Hyde might lose the bell bottom jeans -- or Donna. Jackie and Fez would jump on whatever the latest trends are, abd they'd continue to do so as the '80s progressed.
Considering Eric, Kelso, and Hyde would be in their mid-twenties in the mid-'80s ... Eric's button-down shirt and pants look is essentially timeless, as is Hyde's band tee an jeans look.
Donna would dress appropriately fit her career while working but otherwise update her shirt-blouse style.
Kelso, Fez, and Jackie would be influenced by MTV and music culture.
I fear for Jackie's hair. I hope she'd continue to value the health of her hair rather than give in to the damaging teasing-hairspray trend of the era.
Do you think Hyde’s drinking would ever get out of control? How do you think he’d respond to an intervention and going rehab? Who would prove most instrumental in convincing him to get help?
I've written Hyde as an alcoholic in several fanfics. One where he's a highly functional alcoholic (Rearranged). One where he's not (Made Bare). And one where he's a recovered alcoholic for many years (Jackie Stargazer).
Several approaches to treating alcoholism exist. Rehab isn't the only option or necessarily the best option. Same with AA. It depends on the person, the type and extent of alcoholism, and so on. Amazingly, some people can stop on their own and remain sober the rest of their life (this is not the norm, but it definitely happens; and they don't replace one addiction for another).
Red and W.B. are likely the best people to get through to Hyde, with Jackie and Eric being a close second. Ultimately, though, I think Hyde would have a desire to get sober after experiencing an egregious consequence of his inability to control his drinking. I don't think rehab or AA would work for him at all. He'd need to work one-on-one with a therapist trained to help people get and remain sober.
Note: my opinion on this subject re: Hyde is informed by personal and professional experiences with different types of alcoholics, research, and my understanding of Hyde's character.
I will always ship Rhonda and Fez! Thought they were ideal together, and wish she could have stayed on the show throughout the series.
There is something though that I did like about Caroline (I do not like her nickname). Caroline could be intense, but there was something about her, and I also thought they had a good actress portraying her character. Do you recall some of the feedback fans had about her character? I know she came across as extreme in her behavior with Fez at times, but I think Kelso was extreme in his behavior with Jackie. I know they are two separate scenarios, but still.
And Nina for me was the worst.
My ship of ships for Fez is Fez/Rhonda. Their relationship could've (and should've) lasted through the rest of the show.
Caroline was done dirty, imo. She begins as a neurotic and, perhaps, neurodivergent character (and please keep in mind neurodivergent is an umbrella term that covers a range of differences and combos). She's sweet and shy and anxious.
Then she's transformed into someone with mental illness that is written for "the laughs". Pathological possessiveness, self-harm, potentially dangerous aggression toward others. She demonstrates symptoms of borderline personality disorder. But she's reduced to "Crazy" Caroline, which is probably how most teens in the '70s would've identified her. The writers, however, didn't have to do that.
"It's a sitcom!"
Writers still have a responsibility not to dehumanize a show's characters. Caroline is a teenager with mental illness. T7S treats her as both a threat to Fez and a joke. The tension between the two destroys believability. Either Caroline is a danger to others and herself, which must be taken seriously, or she's no threat at all to either.
Mitch is a better example of a character with several pathologies. He causes real harm to four out of the six main teen characters, but his reasons aren't treated as nebulous. His dysfunctional family is well-defined, and Mitch's behavior can be tied directly to feelings connected to his upbringing, current family situation, and likely a social environment at primary and middle school that was none-too-kind to him.
Yet Mitch is never dehumanized. He suffers consequences, not enough imo, but his transgressions do not go unpunished.
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