Reading wiki entries for historical trans men…
Dr. James Barry, Albert Cashier, Charley Parkhurst, Billy Tipton, and Dr. Alan Hart could have each written “I am a man and want to be recognized across history as such” and transphobes would still be like… “wow what misunderstood butch heroes… lesbian icons!!!!”
interesting how they… didn’t all write that. across history women have disguised themselves as men in order to escape misogyny cus u couldn’t get anywhere much in life (much less become successful doctors) as women. and anyways, of course a woman constrained by sexism would prefer to be given the privileges of a man. i can’t confirm these women were lesbians, but you cannot confirm they were transmen either.
Interesting how… I didn’t argue that women haven’t disguised themselves throughout history. I mentioned specific instances of historical trans men for whom there is evidence to conclude they identified as men and not women. I said nothing against lesbians in my post either, only about transphobes.
Anyways:
Dr. James Barry had a close relationship with Lord Charles Somerset and was subsequently accused of buggery, which led to a court trial and investigation as homosexuality was illegal. He could have revealed that he was female at any time during the trial to escape condemnation, but he did not. Upon his death, Barry left strict instructions that his body was not to be undressed and he was to be buried in his bedsheets.
Albert Cashier could not read or write, but lived as a man for 53 years, even after fighting in the uniform of a Union soldier, he maintained his male dress and presentation until he slipped and fell, breaking his hip.
The indomitable stagecoach driver Charlie Parkhurst lived as a man from the time he was 12, and after retiring, maintained his identity as a man until his death.
Also it’s interesting that you said that I could not undeniably prove any of these men were trans: Alan L Hart was undeniably trans, as he sought out medical transition and pyschotherapy for his gender dysphoria, referred to himself as “one of the fellows,” legally changed his name, lived as a man from a young age, and continued to do so until his death, so yeah, you really can’t say “oh he’s a lesbian,” can you?
while billy tipton might’ve initially identified as a lesbian, he later transitioned to presenting male full-time. he told his future female partners that he was a man and that his body was the result of a serious car accident. he went on to adopt children, and was known as a “good father”. at the age of 74, he refused to be seen by a doctor when he contracted emphysema, which caused his death. neither his later female partners or his children or friends seemed to know he was trans until he was forcefully outed at death
i’d also like to add
little ax broadnax, a gospel singer who performed in multiple quartets over the years with his older brother. while still living with his family, he was recorded in the US census as male. he was outed publicly as a trans man at death in 1992, having presented as male for over 60 years
I hate when radfems INSIST that none of these fellas would id as a trans man, or that they were just presenting male for societal gain and it had nothing to do with personal identity whatsoever.
it’s true we can’t know for sure how they would identify today because they didn’t have those words back then. maybe some would id as butch. maybe some would id as trans or nb or transmasc butch or any number of things. they didn’t have the language to do so.
What’s super insulting, however, is the insistence that an afab person must ONLY be taking on a male role bc of misogyny or to climb the social ladder, when being a masculine afab person has always been a dangerous thing to be. any of these people, no matter what language they would use to describe themselves, took a huge risk in living as men. it just reinforces the idea that afab people are naturally feminine and if they deviate it’s for some reason, when some of us are Just Dudes. it does a huge disservice to trans men and butches alike.
Also… “Of course a woman constrained by sexism would prefer to be given the privleges of a man.” Well, that’s not *wrong* but it’s missing something important.
Because if that was enough of a motivation to cross-dress? We would have had less “women” in history.
But no. When women cross-dressed it tended to be because they had a specific ambition that was worth it. We have a long history of both non-fiction and fiction showing that. Even legends. They wanted to do a specific thing, they did it, and they went back to dressing like women when they were done or didn’t need to anymore.
It’s very different when you continue to dress as a man after you don’t need to anymore. When you don’t even tell the people you love. When your risking a minimum of being outcast from society up to being executed.
Putting up with Dysphoria you didn’t previously have from presenting as the wrong gender isn’t worth that. Guess what is? Finally presenting as the right gender and getting relief from Dysphoria. Possibly even gender Euphoria.
How do we know relief from Dysphoria And/or gender Euphoria are worth having to put up with a woman’s rights? Trans women exist and always have.
This. Honestly, there’s some really obvious stuff here that it seems like transphobic people seem to fight to be able to ignore. I mean, this isn’t rocket surgery, we aren’t rigging a proton torpedo to detect ionized gas emissions. This is really basic stuff.
It’s kinda like the whole soy beans and phytoestrogens thing. If soy had a feminizing effect, then trans women would know because we’ve been trying to make it work like that for decades, if not longer.
This is why facile, surface interpretations just can’t hold up to scrutiny. They will always fall apart on the logic.
So, just to restate @shaaknaa’s fantastic addition:
If the men mentioned above were just women trying to escape misogyny, why don’t we have more examples of women pretending to be men for their entire lives to draw from? Why do we have countless examples of women who passed as men for a specific reason, only to go back to presenting as women once that reason had passed?
This is why deduction is an important skill to learn. It’s one of the ways we can really test our logic when there’s a lack of concrete data to work from. And depending on the deduction you’re making, the conclusions you draw can be quite solid and dependable.
