So what I think is that there's this default belief in patriarchy that men are superior to women and therefore the "masculine" sphere is superior to the "feminine" sphere. And so, as feminists have fought to expand the number of allowable female activities, men (on the aggregate over generations) have retreated from those activities because they're now seen as "feminine", and so partaking in them is incommensurate with their belief in their own superiority. And, unfortunately, as this has progressed, this has resulted in a lot of men sectioning themselves off from, frankly, everything that actually makes being alive worthwhile. It's a misery spiral, and the only way out is to abandon male supremacy.
#men gave up deep friendships and reading and poetry and colourful fashion#all things that used to be considered manly in the 19th century#they're currently giving up on studying law and medecine#it's so stupid and sad
(I mean, the colourful fashion was more of an eighteenth century thing, but yeah)
#more women in higher education meaning fewer men is incredibly depressing to me. funny in a sad way#what happens when women will finally get into trades? will they just stop working
It 100% is. I'm convinvced this is responsible for the uptick in devaluing the humanities, then the arts, and then 'intellectual' jobs. Especially as it's happening at the same time as a sudden valourisation of blue-collar trades (the most 'male' sector remaining) as the only jobs that truly require skill, or that are truly useful to society.
It's no co-incidence that one by one, those former fields all switched from being male dominated to female dominated, or even just equally male and female. So a certain kind of right-wing Manly Man(tm) decided they were 'feminine', and therefore- as per his own worldview that he refuses to question- demeaning to do. And if it's demeaning for him to do it, then it must be because it's frivolous, laughably easy, or even outright harmful. Something stupid to occupy coddled weakling girls, gays, and soyboys while people like him do all the real work.
... Nothing truly useful or valuable could ever feel inaccessible to real manly men like him, right?
So the right wing manly man doubles down. The humanities are a corrupting force driven by women's misguided empathy. The arts are a waste of time. The education system is bad for kids. If too many women start becoming judges or surgeons, then, well, law and medicine are now suspect, aren't they? Even if nothing else about them has changed.
You see the same with subcultures. A certain kind of man constantly fights to maintain his male bastions, mostly by pushing out anything that too many women like. Metal bands with majority female fanbases are fake poser metal, always. Video games played by mostly women aren't real games, always. So those bands and games and films and fashions get junked, leaving the Manly Men(tm) stuck defending the gates of an ever-narrower pool of 'acceptable' culture.
And- yes, if at some point women start entering the trades on mass, this group of men will first try to force them out, and then, if that doesn't work, abandon the 'feminised' fields themselves. Fuck knows what they'll do by then.
So yeah. their fear of being associated with anything feminine, their belief that anything women do is lesser, and their reliance on 'masculinity' for their sense of self and self-worth, mean they're constantly abandoning things, leaving themselves with less and less. It's now gone so far that they're rejecting basically anything that's pro-intellectual, pro-social, or pro-environment. Sure the resulting society would be deeply dysfunctional, but at least it would be manly.
Absolutely terrible for everyone, including the men who are stuck self-excluding their way out of large sections of their own humanity.
international kpop fans calling the national pension service is reason 12389765 why non kpop people will never take them or kpop seriously in the west and why I’ll forever be too embarrassed to admit i listen to kpop. cause no normal fully functioning adult will think calling a foreign country’s state service that’s not related to kpop at all is a reasonable idea. they keep on giving the rest of us normal kpop fans a bad name and ruining the experience for everyone 🤦♀️
So like, I'm of two minds about this.
Yeah it's nuts. It just was. And embarrassing.
Yet, because (despite all appearances) I'm someone who has faith in people, I think a lot of these people who did this will grow up and feel a bit abashed about the things they did in the service of this fandom mania.
Further, if we posit that international kpop fans are young people, mostly women, who are split between very gender conforming girlies and very NOT conforming to anything types of young people, who actually takes these categories of people seriously? Where are these types of people actually treated with respect and treated as consequential? Isn't Kpop one of the only ways where they feel seen and respected and feel like they can DO something about... anything?
So you think that the fan behavior caused the disrespect, but I actually think the disrespect is what causes the fan behavior. It's not JUST their kpop stanning that gets them sneered at. It's their whole existence that's sneered at. And these outbursts are a consequence of being stepped on nonstop.
This is my thought about saseng stalker girlies too by the way. Yes, what they do is horrendous and they probably need medical intervention. But- it actually takes a lot of admirable qualities, twisted, to get to be that person. Curiosity, drive, capacity to act, courage, investigative skills, organizational skills, charisma, disciplined group actions - directed to something that is productive, these are AMAZING traits. And they use it in the most hideous way possible, including terrorizing the people that they think they love.
So I always find myself wondering, Why is it that there's nothing else that allows these people to do something like this for a productive end?
The Hot Philippine Weather really got to Yunho as he unbuttons his shirt (?!) while performing Slide to Me.
Source: real_pra
BTW we actually consider this temperature unusually cold for March 💀 @.ATEEZ In your next concert in the Philippines, please consider scheduling it on Dec/Jan/Feb 🙏
Did you see any of Jongho's most recent live from Singapore? I feel like there is some yummy meta to be had from it, particularly about his relationships with Ateez and even more specifically about his relationships with the 99z. He talks about how he drops honorifics in some cases, specifically with San and Mingi, and how he (I'm paraphrasing and going off of translations) has NEVER dropped honorifics with Yunho or would never drop them. Lol. San, despite being a proper boy with strict social rules, is more lenient than mean oppa Yunho. I'm assuming its because of Yunho's eldest sibling tendencies. But I think it also illustrates Jongho's relationships with San and Mingi, his adoration of Yeosang being in a similar though much less aggressive vain as San's, and his differing closeness with Yunho. Not saying they aren't friends or at the least friendly, but he references so many of the other 99z so much that it is pretty stark.
Side bar, but I think Mingi is coming for the #1 spot on Jongho's list of favorite hyungs. Sannie better watch out. But I've always wondered how San won that placement. What is it about San that Jongho seems to like so much?
ask sent 26.2.24, answered 26.3.8
Whenever I make the effort to spend time 1:1 with Jongho, it's always worth it. My solid sturdy guy, Perfect Husband Coded. I thought Jongho was, you know, opera singer coded from the first. Like, opera tenors are confident dudes. I think knowing that you've honed this superpower, where you can produce a beautiful sound at a volume that can make water vibrate in a cup gives you that. Jongho has that same vibe to me.
I also enjoy (because Hotteok) that he actually often seems to follow a structure in his livechats the same as Yunho, but because he's not an anxious perfectionist who is at the same time enacting a persona that isn't 100% his real actual personality, Jongho doesn't need to be checking things off the list as he goes. Yunho does this because he needs it, the markers that say I am doing this right and we the Hotteoks like it because we're doing this checking-in-to-cross-it-off type of deal all the time anyway. It's reassuring.
But Jongho's way of doing it is cool and low key and much less tense.
Johngho usually starts out with a discussion about food and schedules - uncontroversial topics that everyone can easily understand. I learned from this chat that he eats dinner after the concert is over and before they have to re-emerge to do send off, if they're doing that at the location. There's a whole routine - especially doing dental care before he goes on stage, because that's his professional equipment lol. But when the fans apparently (?)_ tried to overpraise him as being, a planner and perfectly prepared etc, he actually pushes back to say, No this wasn't planned at all. This is just the natural rhythm I fell into because we just do so many concerts.
Then he takes questions from the fans about recent happenings in the content creation side of Ateez. Someone asks what was the bet he lost or what it is that San has over him that he did the recent content. Jongho says he doesn't remember. When he says things like this, for some reason I just take him at face value and assume he doesn't remember. When Yunho says he doesn't remember, his eyes gleam and his mouth quirks and he wriggles around because he lies but I think Jongho actually doesn't remember.
Pouting a little, Jongho says that San always has him do the funny bit or the odd bit and never wants to do it himself. So he's going to try to find a weakness in San and get HIM to do something hard or embarrassing to pull off.
A Ribo suggests that Jongho make San do a combination of Ruby-jjang and Siber related something-something, just to be extremely annoying, since we all know San (acts like he) hates doing those things in particular.
Jongho is going to carefully observe San for any exploitable weaknesses, and then FORCE HIM to make some sort of embarrassing content. Just from the look in Jongho's eye, I would say San is cooked. He is done for.
I just need to find the ONE, just ONE weakness.
If Jongho ever says this about you, you should like, scrub your whole identity from off the face of the earth and go somewhere else and start a new life as a different person LOLOLOL. HE LOOKS POSSESSED. And he says this whole thing in such a measured, quiet, almost whispery tone. Seoul men are scary as fuck, honestly.
So then the Ribos try to bring in the silliness they've either seen in other Ateez chat or maybe in Idoldom in general to ask, What would you do if Atiny turned into [an edible herb]?
Is Jongho a T?
Because he's so annoyed by this question backs far away from the camera to stare us all down for a bit, and then leans back in and goes, "Well, whatever Atiny wants I will try to comply in good faith after giving it due consideration,' - he is such a gentleman - "but I honestly don't understand why you even think about things like this. Why wonder what would happen about a thing that's never going to happen?"
He is so appalled he closes his eyes to say, This is not a matter of being a Thinker (rather than a Feeler).
Jongho reiterates that if Atiny want him to figure something out or discuss something with them, he will but what he wants to know is WHY they wonder about turning into plants and cockroaches and such to begin with. Like how will you change into a cockroach?? he asks, very very seriously.
HE'S SO FUNNY.
So now we're in this imagined world where some poor Atiny has been transformed into a roach. He's really tackling it like a serious problem. "Do I know that this roach was originally an Atiny or is the roach just suddenly here?" So then he goes, Oh, so I know? Well if I know then... then I have to raise it {the roach}. And then Jongho gets very specific - he'll get one of those clear cases that you can raise insects in, and make a little residence, and raise the Atiny-roach. But if there's a whole BUNCH fo these Atiny-roaches??
That would be a terrible headache, he says.
HAHAHAHA.
Ah so I see what he's doing. He doesn't like this roach question, so he's now forcing all of us to imagine a whole SWARM of roaches, come at us in a big hissing cluster. Like so. He actually goes HSSSS as he moves the roach army in our direction.
Staaaaahhhhp.
His little self satisfied lip lick as he watches all his fans that asked him this annoying question about Would you love me if I was a cockroach coping with his infesting their minds with a swarm of roaches is TOO MUCH AHAHAHAHA.
Brief interruption from someone on the San front, who says basically, Pipe down pipsqueak about the earlier threat to catch him in a weakness.
Then someone - I assume it's San - makes or relays a comment that's like, The hierarchical order (within the group) has gone all wrong. Jongho puts his head down on the table to laugh about this, then pops back up to say, Well tell San that he needs to be better to Seonghwa hyung then! And Jongho delivers a lecture to San: So if someone else challenges you, it's a breakdown of the hierarchical order, but if YOU do it to Seonghwa hyung that's all right!?!?
Suddenly, professor Jongho is in the chat. (That fortune teller guy who told Jongho he was suited to e a teacher/ instructor was so right on the money). "The theme of our discussion is this, everyone," Jongho says. "There should be social order. There are elders and juniors. This exists. Given this then, how is it that when someone younger [than San] challenges him it's a disruption of the rightful order, but when he does it to his elders, he considers it permissible?"
Jongho says that this is the dynamics going on in Ateez: Jongho challenges/ attacks San. San challenges/ attacks Seonghwa. Jongho then comes up from the bottom to shield Seonghwa against Jongho, like so.
Seonghwa is the luckiest man on the face of the earth.
Jongho goes on to say that the lack of a big age gap between the members of Ateez is one of the thrilling thing about them. And how is it that in this one group, more than half are exactly in the middle line between the eldest and youngest? This is why this group can function like a chingu-group (as though everyone is the same age and equals, in other words).
What Jongho says in summary is fascinating. The reason Ateez, according to him, functions as a group of equals or near equals (chingu-like) is because there's only 2 years' age gap between the eldest and youngest, and no less than 5 people in the intervening single year between them, with one older and one younger than that middle line.
Someone points out that there are TWO elders in Matz.
I think he's not counting Hongjoong, not because he forgot him or doesn't like him or whatever, but because HJ is the leader and not in this cluster.
Oh San is in this chat!
He says he's not a chingu, he's hyung!
This doesn't apply to Yunho-hyung, Jongho says, TWICE, and then says this applies to the remaining 4 hyungs. So when he calls for Mingi-hyung, Mingi doesn't answer. Neither does Sannie-hyung. They do respond when Jongho calls for Mingi! and San-ah! Even his makeup artists were like, Why is it that they only answer when they are NOT addressed as hyung?!? Apparently Yeosang always says, Yes? when he's addressed, in any which way. In a sweet, "baby-like" innocent way, like this:
Jongho apparently has NEVER addressed Yunho as anything other than Yunho-hyung.
OH THAT IS VERY ... [THOUGHTFUL SILENCE OF LOUD THOUGHTS]
As though wrapping up a sermon, Jongho cuts into whatever the chatter is, to say, "The reason that we could be this chingu-like group is because the 99z exist" and that the point is not that there's an attempt or an actual breakdown of the proper hierarchical order.
He lets the chatter run off steam for a bit because he just reads without responding. Then Jongho sees something he likes.
"Oh I have pretty hands?"
His answer:
They're big too.
Oh I bet. Mmmhmm. Yup.
He doesn't know how many cms.
This is not unconnected with the discussion if never calling Yunho anything not Yunho-hyung, I'm sure. I don't know what the connection is but I will find it.
Meanwhile, the Ribo have finally figured out how to get a proper rise out of Jongho. You can't get him to play ball with something unreal that will never happen. So they go for the jugular.
If we were to be paid $4K for each time we see another male Idol, do we have permission to go?
No. The answer is No. Absolutely No. No.
See this is where Jongho kinda looks like Yunho much of the time, but they are So different.
RIBOS - YOU HAVE TO RUN ARE YOU RUNNING RUN AWAYYYY YOU'VE DONE IT NOW OMG?
With that look in his eyes which are suddenly extremely huge, Jongho goes, "I will make up for the $4K by being good to you. Is money actually that important? It is not! It's the connection between us that's important. I can do lives, without being paid anything extra, that consist of only me singing from beginning to end! If you ask me to dance, I can dance the wave" -
"You can count on me. Right. I will do everything you ask for. So don't go."
Someone asks for him to sing 60초. He starts to sing whatever that is, even though he doesn't know the lyrics. I don't know this song at all. I'm quaking in my boots. Jongho is a much more consequential kind of person than Yunho, and I'm terrified that Ribos feel safe playing this rough with Jongho.
Another one asks him to do Not Cute Anymore. He says he doesn't know the dance, but sings a little bit of it, and does the point choreo with his hands.
404 is another request, and Jongho does what he recalls of that song. Apparently it's not 404? Its Four-O-Four. So it's called Sa-Oh-Sa in Korean? Then someone bursts in with, no It's 404 in three numbers.
Jongho is just singing now, and every song sounds delicious because he's singing it. He has such a beautiful voice. It also seems to serve to lift his mood when he sings, which is nice. I'm glad singing makes him happy. A really helpful Ribo was typing out the lyrics for him in the chat like a teleprompter. She must be SO HIGH right now, to type in lyrics and then have Jongho almost simulcast sing it right at her. Ascension to fandom heaven no doubt.
He sings some Japanese songs.
Then he suddenly asks, Do I sound all right? He feels like the tone is too 'detached' whatever that means. Jongho continues to sing snippets of songs in the most quiet delightful way. This is amazing. He sounds just as 'finished' when he's almost humming the songs as when he's belting. He adds in the vibrato and tone control and the switch between falsetto and chest voice and back again - while singing at pianissimo.
OMG I just got saying this and he goes, "This is harder to sing it quietly, in this hotel room," 'gripping'' rather than all out.
THEN just because he can, because he is NATIONAL TREASURE CHOI JONGHO, he closes his lips and just hums an amazing vocal run because he's bored.
Jongho explains something about Hanbyeol, whoever that is (pls don't bother, I don't care) and how they filed some sort of content together that was a pun on Byeol's name and his song title.
Someone asks him if he's not tired, and Jongho says, But it's fun to do lives like this. Once I wash up I'm going to go right to bed anyway.
Jongho might be the smartest one int his group lol. He gets to live the Idol life - stadium tours! big audiences! big hits! not having to be lonesome on stage until he's fully ready! - without you know, being objectified or stalked as much, or given as much pressure to look and be a certain way, because he's reliant on more than just his (very considerable) appeal as an Idol. He's a vo-ca-list!
He says that he thinks he looks better with lighter make up, and so there isn't a lot of make up to remove at the moment. If Yunho said this I would wonder if this is a flex about his skin, but I think Jongho just means it.
Jongho being the oldest (soul) person in his group is in evidence suddenly at the end of this chat. He encourages an asker about school life the following:
Studying is of course very important. But there's also nothing terrible about not being great at it [I think he misspoke here}. Because if you study hard, it will help you in your daily life. In truth - there's nothing that DOESN"T help [if you work hard at it] - whatever it is. So I recommend working hard at something when you have the chance. I personally don't even think it applies to college. I think this is up to high school. I think you should make lots of memories with friends, in school, and do the studying that you can do, and figure out what you really want to do with your life, and challenge yourself by following that path. That's what I did. I started working really early, but I really wanted to be a soccer player. But my parents said if you want to play soccer you must study hard. So I worked hard and naturally had great grades. I ended up doing a lot academically. I took classes at the Gifted programs. I participated in dissection of the heart and things like that. But it turned out what I really wanted to do was music. So from middle school onwards I just went to the local music hakwon and learned singing. Even then I didn't know I would work in music, but it was more that even as a kid I thought, this is a really attractive field. I was very moved by that. And naturally I auditioned because companies came to that hagwon, and I made the cut. So i had to decide between doing music and soccer, and because I chose music, I'm here now, living happily as a musician.
There are so many paths and everyone wants something unique as their real dream so there is no need to rush, and take it step by step.
He sounds 500 years old LOL.
Jongho says that he didn't really know what Idols really were until he joined the company. He wanted to be a singer. When he began as a trainee, and went to his first dance class. He told them he couldn't dance, because he was trying to be a singer. So Jongho just went along, in the spirit of trying it out, and now here he is, as an Idol. He didn't have any interest or joy in dance at first, but now he does. And he didn't know what it meant to be an Idol, until he was a Trainee, and now he's very happy. Jongho says he was happy as a Trainee, and he's been happy in his life as an Idol, even though he didn't really know what lay in store.
This is such premium, Grade A, gold standard fanservice, but the way. Bro is gooooooood. I don't need to worry about him. He respects himself. He's fueling himself. He's meant to be here, doing this, and he's enjoying it. I'm so relaxed. I feel like I just go a massage. Delightful man.
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