Sozin’s Comet Part II: The Old Masters
Zuko: You’re right. Katara, how would you like to help me put Azula in her place?
When 12 words do the work of a thousand.
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Sozin’s Comet Part II: The Old Masters
Zuko: You’re right. Katara, how would you like to help me put Azula in her place?
When 12 words do the work of a thousand.
I wrote this on another post but decided against posting it but I still want to put it out there:
My issue with Pakku ultimately comes down to the "because I have a daughter/sister/mother/wife" mentality which is when men only seem to take up feminist ideals when they have a female they care about and more importantly, instances where this mentality only applies to the females they care about.
When we see Katara finally joining Pakku's class it seems like a big deal because here's this new girl, the first girl to learn waterbending in NWT, sweeping the floor with the boys but...uh, she's the only female there.
I get change is slow but they could have shown Pakku maybe extending his changed behavior to people other than Katara and Kanna who he has personal interest in.
Because without it, Pakku's change feels very "girls still suck, but not that one" to me.
"His old love took him back, isn't he just so wonderful and redeemed of his life-long misogyny?"
The person who burned down Jet's village and killing his family was, at the time it happened, a soldier whose direct superior was Iroh. And that fact really makes the scenes with Jet and Iroh makes my stomach turn.
Iroh they will never make me like you; Jet they will never make me hate you.
X
Amazing trio
Hm.
[S1EP12 The Storm] ↓
Iroh: "I looked away."
[S3EP12 The Western Air Temple] ↓
Iroh: "Prince Zuko, it's only been a week since your banishment. You should take some time to heal and rest."
Zuko: "What else would I expect to hear from the laziest man in the Fire Nation?"
[Iroh sighs.]
Zuko: "The only way to regain my honor is to find the Avatar. So I will."
[Iroh says 'ight imma head out']
Bonus: Wondering about the thoughts that could be running through Zuko's head here. ↓
I really love how you compared The Storm and Western Air Temple episodes!! I personally never saw a connection between Iroh's behavior on either scenes. So it got me thinking.
(I apologize beforehand because I wrote a full on essay, that's probably filled with flimsy arguments/observations and might've repeated myself to boredom... So feel no rush to read this, let alone write a response lol)
What I found most interesting is how Iroh technically turned his back on Zuko those two times. (Literally or not lol) (Also massive essay incoming)(Extreme yapper overthinking about blorbo)
It's obvious how he did nothing when Zuko faced Ozai in the Agni Kai, he refused to speak up against it.
The act of looking away itself is supposed to show how Iroh knows that these things are wrong. He grimaces and closed his eyes. Which could've also been read as cowardly by FN society. But at the same time, it contradicts itself with the fact that he is a major figure of authority. Arguably a powerful one since he's the Firelord's older brother. And yet he did nothing despite supposedly caring so much about Zuko.*¹
It could even be worse without having in mind that beyond the societal rules within the FN, he quite literally turned his head to the very blatant and horrifying abuse that was subjected onto Zuko at that moment.*²
In contrast, the Western Air Temple episodes shows a way more subtle act.
Upon the suggestion of resting, Zuko insults Iroh via calling him lazy*³, and then reaffirms his current mission and stubbornness on it. As you pointed out, Iroh heads out and leaves Zuko alone, after having a massively traumatic assault happen just a week ago.*⁴
Iroh's behavior presents a notable passiveness. The "gentle parenting" style itself seemed to be rather lackluster, having in mind how he kept trying to give "advice" for the entirety of Zuko's banishment. Therefore showing how Zuko's stubborn ass just refused to listen and learnt nothing due to how little Iroh actually tried beyond superficial level mentions of these deeply important values.
More than "advice", most of Iroh's encouragement towards healthier habits/mindset, it seems more like "suggestions" due to how he immediately gives up once Zuko doesn't gaf. (That doesn't seem very mentor-y of him, mind you.) Yes I'm also aware that this is one intrinsic flaw he's had the whole time. It is often the case... when it comes to Azula. When it's Iroh, he's never shown such deliberate disregard until his banishment.
Either way, I personally think that Iroh turned his back on Zuko on that moment as well.
We need to have in mind how unstable Zuko was at the time. Just a week ago, he had a home, a father he wanted to make proud, an opportunity to prove himself as much as showing he's adequate to rule, his eagerness, optimism—All of it was gone. Not just that, but he had also suffered devastating physical and psychological damage due to Ozai's abuse. There's a clear reason as to why he was already hell-bent on his mission so early on. He was just a kid. He wanted things to go back to the way they were. He had to prove himself worthy.
With that said, Iroh turned his back to him in the sense that he easily lets Zuko slip into harmful patterns while on his search due to the latter not collaborating and throwing a personal attack towards him.
One would think that so early on, Iroh would've been equally hell-bent on ensuring that Zuko kept healthy habits, especially a mere week after the Agni Kai. But he just gives up easily. Essentially leaving Zuko to perpetuate this constant pattern of just not listening to Iroh, not thinking through things and refusing to take care of himself, due to how he could get Iroh off his back right away. And the latter would also casually go fuck off somewhere else he didn't clarify. (Recurring pattern)
Even worse, Iroh could've said literally anything before opting to go away. He could've insisted on how Zuko's search would be fruitless of he worked himself to death and got sick enough to not be able to continue traveling. It may have been fairly sketchy advice, but at the very least he would've actually tried to convince him to act on some positive practices early on, when Zuko was so incredibly vulnerable and sent off into the world as if nothing.
Overall, in both cases, Iroh seems to turn his back on Zuko when he desperately needed help. With The Storm showing how Iroh allowed the abuse to happen despite being an authority figure that could've potentially done or said something about it. And with The Western Air Temple demonstrating how he immediately gave up on convincing Zuko to rest and allowed him to overwork himself whilst giving no direct positive support for his nephew.
Okay okay it may seem outlandish with all this wording and long paragraphs. But he very much allows some harm to come through Zuko on different occasions and different ways. Accidentally or not. In those specific moments, Zuko needed protection and actual positive influences (respectively), and Iroh didn't even do the bare minimum on either case.
Possible counter points:
[PT: Possible counter points:]
Now I know some people may point out how 1) Iroh may be prioritizing Zuko's privacy and agency. Which is false! Since allowing a minor—who's supposed to be under his care—to simply do fuck all and refuse to rest isn't an example of agency. Allowing said minor to not practice basic care is neglect. It's still a form of neglect if the care itself was suggested and then not encouraged beyond a superficial "mention" level.
2) One may suggest "but it's because he refuses to! It's an outcome that lets him have his wishes respected whilst possibly having him face any negative consequences of his carelessness, that way he'd learn!"
And it is true that minor's wishes SHOULD ALWAYS be treated as important and imperative to be listened to and respected. But still, if you look at the text... Zuko very clearly demonstrates a deeply harmful attitude that stems from desperation. Besides the typical "let the kid eat candy and watch tv all night, they'll see how they feel in the morning and understand why they can't do that" is a harmful line of thinking since it implies a level of conscious neglect that tries to justify itself via being wearing youth lib arguments as a fazade, as well as it puts the hypothetical child/minor in danger.
Besides, we're talking about a deeply injured and traumatized teen who doesn't cope in a healthy way, expressing a desire to achieve a goal imposed onto an abusive figure as fast as possible, regardless of the self destructive methods and connotations it'd carry. Iroh certainly doesn't justify his departure as an extent of teaching a lesson. (nor is it implied to)
[note: the example given on this point is here due to how widespread it is, and the possibility of it being used as an argument against my arguments/observations. I obviously do not support nor condone this harmful way of thinking]
3), the argument of "he's giving Zuko some time for himself" could also be used. And it's the one that comes closest to actually working against this whole essay-long post since it can easily be canon. But it doesn't mean that it absolves Iroh's lack of support here. Because yes, Zuko's obviously troubled like he's never been in his life. And we knew that he's prone to reacting negatively to a ton of things, or having outbursts of emotion. But I personally believe that he needed support and guidance more than anything, especially freshly banished and abused.
We knew he had such reactions in the Zuko Alone flashbacks, and how actual gentle parenting (not the half assed suggestion Iroh gives her) does show itself as effective. Like in the turtle-duck pond scene with Ursa.
So then, although Iroh might've personally believed Zuko needed time to process his feelings and situation on the matter, he accidentally or not ended up neglecting the much needed lesson about self care that he needed for the long run. Iroh's good intentions do not justify the casual neglect.
And 4), the possibility that Iroh may have tried this many other times beforehand and didn't work and/or allowing Zuko to be with his thoughts due to his aggressive response. These are also somewhat futile since the text itself doesn't seem to imply that this is a recurring thing, more so the first example of this kind of comments coming from Iroh during the banishment itself. He sighs in exasperation due to Zuko refusing to take the advice, and then promptly leaves without further comment. The sigh could be read as exasperation that stems from having tried to convince Zuko to rest time after time to no avail*⁵. But if that were the case, I think that the dialogue would've pointed out how this had been a recurring thing. And it doesn't seem to.
Aditional observations (marked with *)
[Pt: Aditional observations (marked with asterisk)]
→ 1 : *[It's pretty implied that Iroh holds guilt towards allowing this to happen. Or at least to have turned his head away to it. And I personally think that said guilt is present on The Western Air Temple interaction as well. He seems worried for Zuko's wellbeing, but doesn't seem to try to get him to listen to him and rest. Iroh probably sees Zuko's trauma and anger towards him (one that may or may not be Zuko's toxic outlet for his anger and possible guilt/self blame, depends on how much benefit of the doubt is given) as a direct byproduct of his (Iroh's) inaction.
If that were the case, it's even more unfortunate how Iroh, possibly wallowing on his guilt, doesn't actually try all that much to be there for Zuko in that very flashback. Maybe feeling an amount of self blame and guilt that actively stopped him from genuinely trying to help Zuko at that moment]]
→ 2 : *["No yeah Zuko believe me, your father totally loves you. Never mind that I was the only one to look away and never talk about when he violently abused and scarred you for life. No, no, he loves you for sure despite having banished you on what was previously wild a goose chase—Just keep following my lead! Whatever keeps you moving on rather than the actual truth! And if you don't listen to me I'll just head out and leave you on your own, don't mind me."
I'm sorry, I have feud with Iroh and the jokes write themselves]
→ 3 : *[There's a very interesting interpretation here in regards to how Zuko's referred to Iroh in the past. From what we've seen pre-Agni Kai, Zuko pretty much held him on a pedestal, since he was the cool uncle™ who gifted him foreign knives as tokens of victory, who was so funny, kind, and hard working on his military pursue. (And was also implied to have spent a significant amount of time taking care of him during his infant-toddler days on Ember Island) He defended his retreat from Ba Sing Se to Azula, as she pointed out (even at such young age) how he was a disgrace in regards to typical FN royal family standards. Zuko was shown as still fond of his uncle even right before the war meeting that'd lead to the Agni Kai.
But in the Western Air Temple flashback, we're shown the very first time when he insults or mocks Iroh as he calls him "the laziest man in the Fire Nation".
What I find most interesting is the fact that he says that at all. Which may imply that Zuko remembered and then followed some of Azula's past comments/criticisms, and started to see what she talked about in regards to who Iroh was—since this is the only instance of any character speaking negatively about Iroh, to Zuko, in older points of the timeline. (Wow, can't believe they could've agreed on one thing for the first time../lh/j)
This could also lead to an implication that leans towards a possible resentment Zuko might've had towards Iroh. The uncle he loved so dearly, and who took such great care of him when no one was there. The uncle whose reputation he's tried to protect, whose decisions he's tried to justify, even as a little kid. The uncle who looked away and didn't call out not speak against horrid abuse being inflicted on him due to contrived social norms.
No wonder he starts to believe all that Azula said back then, about how lazy and uncommitted Iroh was. No wonder he could've used insults towards him as an outlet for the injustice he felt towards his only openly supportive family member not being there for him.
This is a very much subtextual, and possibly quite biased observation. But I find it so fascinating how Zuko's resentment towards Iroh is completely untapped, never stated as canon (or only portrayed as annoyance/aggression), and would've disregarded completely if it ever was canon. (Just look at his guilt driven arc towards Iroh in B3. Which was catered towards his betrayal of Iroh, reasonably so, but could've held greater depth with any possible mixed feelings added onto the mix)]
→ 4 : *[In a more meta sense, I may be playing devil's advocate here, but in just a mere week, Iroh seems already done with Zuko. The scene could've made a point towards indicating how it was the beginning of his (questionable) mentoring of Zuko, how he hadn't put his mind to it at the moment and merely wanted to ensure that he was okay and not superficially alone... But the flashback itself seems to cater it's emotional resonance more towards "wow look at just how badly Zuko treated poor Iroh, he's been trying so hard for his nephew ever since", rather than having a little more focus on the emotionally volatile and severely traumatized 13 year old who's just lost it all and desperately wants to get it back—And is showcasing toxic coping mechanisms alongside harmful tendencies. (saying that both should've have a focus whilst holding Zuko accountable for his past behavior—or at least a different example of it) But no, let's just aim our sympathies towards how badly he treated the grown war veteran who had the chance to avoid this situation all together, because he's just so nice to this insufferable teenager!]
→ 5 : [unrelated, but I do wonder if Iroh's sigh could've been an exasperated reaction to Zuko's insult, rather than the implicit refusal itself. In a possibly dismissive way? Nonetheless, if it were like that, it'd make Iroh heading out look so much more sketchy with that context. If this was all true, would Iroh have tried more to get Zuko to rest if the latter hadn't insulted him? Would Iroh have cared way more? or turned away regardless of the words spoken? It's truly interesting if we also add on the possibility of Iroh carrying immense guilt for having retreated from Ba Sing Se, and been perceived as a "lazy" or a "disgrace", plus guilt from Lu Ten's death adding even more salt to the wound. Just to wrap it up on how he refused to convince Zuko to rest after he called him such insults. (It could also be more amplified if we add on my first observation, which speculated on the guilt Iroh could've felt towards letting the Agni Kai happen as a bystander.) Overall considering himself a failure of a father, general, and uncle at that moment/or being reminded of it? Just saying that either his pettiness towards being called lazy at the moment/his guilt about considering himself such, led him to turn his back on Zuko and just let the latter overwork himself go death, due to Iroh's own hurt ego (probably?? This one's messy and way too guilt riddled but it's such a fascinating possibility too) (also I'd understand how he'd be exasperated at the insult and how it obviously hurts, but refusing to teach self care to Zuko because of that? Prick. ]
Also, in regards to the bonus question:
Bonus: Wondering about the thoughts that could be running through Zuko's head here. ↓
My take is that, having in mind the overarching arc and motivation that Zuko has in B3, he was most likely having self deprecating thoughts in regards to how badly he treated Iroh throughout his banishment. Feeling guilty, remorseful, and most likely cringing at his last self lol.
Though, on a more serious note, I think there's an interesting pattern to note;
- He was raised to believe how Ozai's treatment of him was justified because he let down this figure he wanted paternal love from—he disrespected it. Therefore he needed to make up for it via fulfilling his destiny and life long duty of capturing the Avatar. (imposed by Ozai) Until he HAD to find out for himself that it was actually abuse. And therefore owed nothing to him.
(never mind that Iroh never ever tried to help him realize that on a mostly unsupervised banishment. Maybe because that'd also lead him to understand Azula's situation, therefore humanizing her—and Iroh obviously wouldn't have wanted that)
- And now, in this scene, that very pattern is being repeated. Zuko views Iroh as this perfect figure who did his best, and yet was let down by his behavior. He betrayed Iroh's trust in him, and now searches for a way to make up for it. Let it be aiding the Avatar and fulfilling the different destiny that Iroh pitched to him.
Yes, Iroh has been, by far, the figure with the most positive impact on Zuko's life. Basically turning it around. But at the same time, Zuko's inability to register Iroh's faults, bad behavior (except for the visible reactions he may get that aren't elaborated on, such as Iroh being a weirdo to June smh), and all his sketchy or plain bad teachings at times, (hard to understand proverbs, changing the meaning of what Zuko's destiny is, etc) accidentally perpetuates this cycle of being unable to notice these acts that adults enforce on him to their benefit, and to his detriment.
(Now, it's obvious that this comparison is unfair having in mind how Iroh's case is completely different. Zuko was legimately in the wrong for betraying the person who's been there for him the whole time, and then for having helped to conquer Ba Sing Se, aiding in the murder of the Avatar, ruining thousands of lives... (Shame that the show only deals with the first one of these repercussions) But it is true that the narrative shares that very same beat. And I thought it was worth pointing out due to Zuko holding Iroh on a pedestal during his redemption—not "just" appreciating all he's done for him, he literally can't see Iroh as anything other than a saint. Even if it's pretty much a meta thing, I thought it was interesting]
I feel like Zuko's whole character went from "bad" to "good" because he felt bad for betraying what he considered a father figure (not because he understood the effects of imperialism or how he contributed to it). And there ARE some subtle yet notable instances of some manipulation being utilized by Iroh. But overall, the narrative, accidentally or not, has some elements of Zuko's relationship to Ozai and Iroh being the exact same, but in a different context, font and framing.
Summing it up: he was probably going on a mental (self deprecating) rant against himself for how he behaved back then.
(also, the concept of Zuko berating himself while on some level failing to acknowledge that at the time, he was also an abused kid going through it... That he could've had valid resentment fade away into self hatred for having spoken out of turn at all, since Iroh never spoke about the event nor would've ever admitted how he was an accomplice by inaction... Demonizing his past self that was fresh out of the infirmary.. And that he should never think badly of Iroh under any circumstance due to how much he cared about him, how he idolizes him and realizes the positive impact his uncle had while failing to recognize his shortcomings.. Being unaware that Iroh uses him to fulfill some of his selfish needs, and going along with it... Gosh the angst)
Closing thoughts:
[Pt: Closing statements:]
I likely have been too biased, and cut a ton of slack to Zuko. I recognize that he's my fave just as I definitely acknowledge that he's been awful to most figures that supported him—Thing that in a canon and meta sense isn't truly acknowledged. (And generally sucks as the script doesn't do that much of a job towards confronting some other acts he committed) But I mostly wanted to highlight how Zuko's reaction in the Western Air Temple flashback, specifically, could very much be explainable and deserving of some insight into his state back then. (From then on, it's just bad coping and awful, bigoted behavior. So I'm only giving him a pass on this one)
Buuuutt... I also don't want to cut slack to the grown ass war veteran whose selfish needs might've overpassed his duty to take care of the very traumatized teen at his VOLUNTARY charge, and actually drive him towards a good direction in life, process his trauma—and so much more that's unfortunately irrelevant to the topic at hand.
First off,
Never apologize for overanalyzing.
Secondly, I remember your anon, yes. I couldn't even find a proper response because you were making such good points, so straight forwardly.
Thirdly, I apologize if my response is not quite adequate enough. I have a lot to process and my mind is an egg salad sandwich.
Circling back to the overanalyzing thing, and quickly noting on the fact I am both aware and actively trying to take note of Iroh's passiveness (it's one of his most consistent aspects); this is what I've been working on. ↓
↑The numbers are for later referencing if I need to refer to specific moments after tagging all Iroh's actions with identifiers. E.g. "[Book+Ep number] contradicts [S1EP7 Teachings6]"
And, I think you may be interested in this post of mine. I'm no stranger to stretching things out to try and make sense of them. Especially for a character as convoluted as Iroh.
Now, I don't have my own meta analysis to respond with at the moment, but I do wish to comment on some things. It'd be too difficult to quote your words directly to respond to, or point to specific sections... so I'll do a numbered list and you may follow along in the order of which I respond.
List under the cut. ↓
I wonder how much blame Azula places for Zuko's agni kai against Ozai on Iroh.
Afterall, iroh was the one who allowed Zuko into the war meeting and then refused to speak up in his defence
What do you think the fact that Ursa doesn't touch Azula on the family portrait, unlike Ozai does with Zuko? Is it supposed to mean something? Just curious to know your thoughts about this.
It suggests emotional distance between her and Azula, just like Ozai putting his hand on Zuko's shoulder suggests he's proud of Zuko. I'm not sure what more there is to add. ATLA was extremely consistent with depicting Ursa as having been cold toward Azula. Even the comics consistently agree with this. The only people who refuse to see this are fans obsessed with Ursa being a "perfect mother."
hi ! ur iroh grooming zuko take is really interesting to me, i feel like iroh is def one of those characters that is a little messier than he seems on first read. i'm gonna respond to some bits with some stuff that i was thinking and it would be great if i could maybe hear ur take on them? 1. i think part of iroh's character is very much built up of retcons, in season 1 he's introduced as like zuko's bumbling mentor figure who kind of impedes more than helps, by season 2 he's more helping guide zuko's healing, and by season 3 suddenly he has secretly been part of the white lotus rebellion this whole time! i think one way to read him is that his choices are just generally a little disjointed from slighty disconnected writing bc the showrunners themselves kept changing his motives, not because he secretly had ones we didnt know of the whole time 2. in the replies i saw you talking about how iroh manipulated zuko with the idea of destiny, by pushing zuko towards pursing a certain destiny that was more for iroh's gain. in iroh's speech about destiny in the season 2 finale iroh says to zuko, "It's time for you to look inwards, and begin asking yourself the big questions. Who are you, and what do you want?" i think his probing zuko about destiny has always been very much about wanting zuko to find his own destiny, and trying to suggest to him that ozai's path isn't necessarily the only one, and that he can build his own 3. on iroh moving to ba sing se once zuko is firelord. yeah i wasn't a big fan of this either, honestly :( but also i feel like while iroh has been zuko's mentor for most of the show, at the same time he's also had his own huge military career that he seems to regret, and seems to still be working through the loss of his son. i think its a possible read that iroh ended up staying there because he has his own baggage and wanted his own gentle retirement after everything. he's also a person with a bunch of hard stuff in his life just like zuko and maybe him ditching zuko was more like, not purposeful manipulation but just an imperfect mentor figure who had his own wants and was healing from his own things too?
thanks so much if you read all of this, sorry its probably a lot i love analyzing atla LOL . i hope you're well! -🧸
Hey, never apologize for overanalyzing, 🧸.
I must apologize for taking forever to get this drafted and posted. Been running on caffeine, fumes and prayers. So this will be excruciatingly disorganized.
Responding to each of the takes...
•Point 1: (In)consistency.
It's such a headache trying to keep track of all the times the show seems to change it's mind on how to present Iroh. Every other character seems a lot more solid in their characterization.
I'll make a post about it eventually.
•Point 2: "Destiny is a funny thing."
I plan on making this aspect of Iroh's characterization it's own post eventually.
That being said;
The word "destiny" and it's varients are one of the most frequently used in the show. It really loses its meaning when "destiny/destinies/destined" are said a combined total of... 41 times, I believe.
And, as Aunt Wu said to Aang in [S1EP14 The Fortuneteller];
"I'll tell you a little secret, young airbender. Just as you reshaped those clouds, you have the power to shape your own destiny."
Iroh deciding Zuko's destiny is the throne has no merit. It really does not. It contradicts the entire show (and Iroh's speech), no?
•Point 3: Trauma & Responsibility.
This one is the most sensitive to discuss. Even though I have experienced a vast range of emotions and hardships that can help me understand Zuko and Iroh (particularly Zuko), I cannot speak for their exact upbringing, environmental, political and philosophical influences.
Not to compare trauma, of course, but I'll try to list both character's potential traumas first.
Iroh's trauma:
•Losing Lu Ten.
•Almost losing Zuko several times. (Emotionally and in terms of near-death experiences)
•Supposedly feeling ashamed over his time spent as general and Dragon of the West.
•Having been imprisoned a few times.
•Uh, what else? Genuinely, I have trouble thinking of specific moments. I'll add them later if/when I do remember.
Zuko's trauma:
•Having been established the hated child his whole life.
•Never had his own friends growing up.
•Feelings of insecurity and failure plagued his young mind.
•Lost his mother (Safe place).
•Shamed for showing mercy and respect toward soldiers.
•Forced to duel his own father instead of a general.
•Was scarred physically at the hand of his own father after pleading for forgiveness.
•Was burned in front of the entire royal court.
•Was banished unless he completes a task thought to be impossible.
•Three years of desperately hunting a way to get back home.
•Gets his hopes up several times only for them to be crushed.
•Many, many injuries.
•Many near death experiences.
•Constantly pushing his body to it's limit in hopes of achieving his goals.
•A deep-seated need for validation.
•Had the possibility of going home dangled in front of his face, wrapped in lies.
•Constantly pinned against his own sister, whom remaind a perceived obstacle and psychological threat, by Ozai, Iroh and himself.
•Nearly killed by said sister a couple times.
•Severing ties of his former identity. (Temporarily)
•A need for independence without the emotional tools necessary to achieve it.
•Near starvation.
•Being rejected and shunned for his nationality and lineage despite his efforts to follow his moral compass.
•Forced to suppress his bending and identity and work customer service.
•That atrocious hairstyle Iroh gave him for his date with Jin.
•Giving up a brief moment of respite and the possibility of a simple life due to his complicated position.
•Moral and identity crisis.
•Chose "honor" over healing, trust and redemption whilst betraying his uncle and aiding in the killing of Avatar Aang.
•His own choices and the consequences there of.
•Saw his uncle imprisoned after his own betrayal.
•Having to meander around the abusive enviroment he'd grown up in again.
•Realized his return home made him feel emptier than exile.
•Feeling completely isolated despite his friend group and girlfriend's company.
•Lost his firebending (temporarily) due to his own inner turmoil. [S3EP13 The Firebending Masters]
•Had a tense political and relationship based arguement with his girlfriend (ex at the time?) and had to choose the mission over her.
•That Agni Kai against Azula.
•Anything that could have followed after him becoming Fire Lord.
And then the outcome of these things combined...
The outcome for Iroh:
•Pseudo-gaurdianship of Zuko.
•Effort to prioritize relaxation and comfort above all else, even duties.
•Controlled firebending.
•Avoidance of Fire Nation politics.
•Convoluted idealogy.
•Shifting loyalties.
•Stagnation framed as growth.
•Tea addiction.
The outcome for Zuko:
•One very conflicted moral compass.
•Anger issues.
•Lots of shame.
•Feeling inadequate.
•Disregarding his physical needs.
•Obsessive behavior.
•Deepened insecurity.
•Increased envy.
•Violent outbursts and tendencies.
•Impulse choice making.
•Perpetuated struggle with and against authority.
And now to list their responsibilities.
Iroh's responsibilities:
Firstborn son of Azulon, crown prince of the Fire Nation and heir to the throne.
Lu Ten's father.
Zuko's mentor and pseudo-father.
Atoning for his crimes.
Organizing with the White Lotus Order.
Zuko's responsibilities:
Atoning for his actions.
Making amends.
Aang's firebending teacher.
Restoring balance.
Leadership.
Guiding the next generation.
Wait a minute... No, Zuko's list of responsibilities doesn't look quite right.
Oh, right, Zuko's numbers [4, 5 and 6] were supposed to be Iroh's duties. Karmatic style, too. Meaning Iroh went against responsibilities [1, 3 and 4] on his list and avoided it by passing them onto Zuko. Not a good look.
And we all know how questionable the White Lotus is.
Additional notes on my thoughts of Point #3:
𓂃✍︎: Quick note: None of these are meant to sound dismissing of your points. My intended tone is nuetral. I have to clarify this as tone is a huge struggle for me.
but also i feel like while iroh has been zuko's mentor for most of the show (1), at the same time he's also had his own huge military career that he seems to regret (2), and seems to still be working through the loss of his son(3)
↑
This sounded a little too similar to "just raise them til they're 18, then they can provide for you in return." A child, biological, adopted, surrogate or pseudo, is a lifelong commitment. Not a tool. The parental figure must be willing to place their child's needs above their own. Especially a teenager, who is an abuse survivor among other life-altering traumas. Who does not yet possess the emotional regulation, maturity, experience, understanding and self-soothing habits necessary to carry such a heavy burden. Iroh, as the self proclaimed father and mentor figure, should not be putting his own relaxation above his chronically stressed nephew.
He had an establish career, understanding of said career, neither of which Zuko has, and years of atrocities to atone for. And what better way than to use that power for good? But he passed all the pressure onto Zuko so he can run away from it.
So he fates his surrogate-son to a life of constant stress? How is this supposed to heal either of them or honor Lu Ten's memory?
i think its a possible read that iroh ended up staying there because he has his own baggage and wanted his own gentle retirement after everything
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We all have baggage. We all want relief and comfort. But at the expense of others is an entirely selfish decision. If I abandoned my friends, whom I claimed to support, and whom have showed me deep trust and love, because "I want to start a botany in some remote town while you lot deal with the enviroments you got sick in" am I still a moral, loyal and wise person and friend?
he's also a person with a bunch of hard stuff in his life just like zuko and maybe him ditching zuko was more like, not purposeful manipulation but just an imperfect mentor figure who had his own wants and was healing from his own things too?
↑ About that.
Iroh's an adult. Zuko is a child. Iroh has contacts with fellow leader or mentor figures. Zuko does not. Iroh has political influence. Zuko does not, and any he did obtain, was not studied thoroughly beforehand. Iroh stays calm under pressure. Zuko crumbles emotionally, lashes out, internalizes shame or self-sabotages.
Was it purposeful? In terms of what the writers were doing, no. It was completely due to many, many oversights on their part. Is the interpretation some of it was intentional part of the canon? Also no. Is there room for speculation on the abstract concept of these characters for what their established stories entails?
Yes.
And the end of the day, like I said, never apologize for overanalyzing. Writing this whole thing, as messy as it was, has made me self reflect on my own behaviors, traumas, and experiences.
So anyway, thanks for the ask.
Whenever you are involved in a discussion/argument on Ursa and the other person says anything even remotely similar to
Ursa was able to see something odd with Azula
to justify Ursa's neglect towards Azula, you can just remove yourself from there.
Because clearly they either do not have the mental capacity or the desire to understand beyond blaming a nine year old.
“The Beach”:
Zuko: Doing nothing is a waste of time. (Zuko stands up) We’re being sent away on a forced vacation. (Zuko walks over to the balustrade, leans on it and stares out to sea) I feel like a child. (Cut to close shot of Azula) Azula: Lighten up. So dad wants to meet with his advisors alone… without anyone else around. Don’t take it personally. (Cut to shot of all four teens)
By any reasonable standard, Zuko and Azula(and Mai and Ty Lee for that matter) had earned the right to have their opinions taken seriously given, you know, they conquered Ba Sing Se together and won the Fire Nation’s greatest victory in 100 years, but still Ozai sends them away and treats them like children. What an asshole.
Ozai still recognizes that they are still children. He even refers to Zuko as HIS LITTLE ZUKO according to the Sozin’s Comet novelization LMAO!!! Plus, the Ozai’s Angels deserve a vacation instead of talking about boring war stuff with old men (Zuko and Azula are the exceptions).
It might also be Ozai's idea of reward, free from responsibilities and the imperial court.
After all in the past the entire family used to go on vacations to Ember Island every year.
“The Beach”:
Zuko: Doing nothing is a waste of time. (Zuko stands up) We’re being sent away on a forced vacation. (Zuko walks over to the balustrade, leans on it and stares out to sea) I feel like a child. (Cut to close shot of Azula) Azula: Lighten up. So dad wants to meet with his advisors alone… without anyone else around. Don’t take it personally. (Cut to shot of all four teens)
By any reasonable standard, Zuko and Azula(and Mai and Ty Lee for that matter) had earned the right to have their opinions taken seriously given, you know, they conquered Ba Sing Se together and won the Fire Nation’s greatest victory in 100 years, but still Ozai sends them away and treats them like children. What an asshole.
Ozai still recognizes that they are still children. He even refers to Zuko as HIS LITTLE ZUKO according to the Sozin’s Comet novelization LMAO!!! Plus, the Ozai’s Angels deserve a vacation instead of talking about boring war stuff with old men (Zuko and Azula are the exceptions).
Iroh - age 55 or so, proposes burning down Ba Se Sing for no real reason Ursa - age 30 or so laughs Zuko - age 8 or so laughs
Zuko - burns down a village Iroh - watches him burn down a village and cops a feel off of a paralyzed woman GOOD PEOPLE Azula - age 6 or so laughs at the thought of Ba Se Sing being burned down Azula - proposes burning down Ba Se Sing because of her cousin’s death and to put down the rebels
EVIL
Azula and abuse.
Here’s the thing. Azula could not escape her abuse.
For one thing it wasn’t named, and while it sounds odd to say, naming something gives it a reality. Otherwise it is amorphous. It went unnamed and unrecognized.
In contrast to Zuko who had a recognizable scar and could refer to actions Azula could only refer to the feeling that her mother didn’t love her like she loved Zuko and thought she was a monster, which she also believes about herself (and thus that she deserves what she gets). That doesn’t even begin to get into what her father did to her, used her, misused her, turned her into a weapon. His only praise is backhanded, she isn’t Zuko.
Azula doesn’t have her mother’s love, or her uncle’s love, and there are signs that at one point Ozai did have affection for his son (both in the show and the comics, heck Ozai twice saves Zuko’s life, but you also see Ozai touching him affectionately.)
There is nothing like that for Azula.
Even Ursa’s last words to Azula aren’t “I would never let anyone harm either of my children” but “Go to bed young lady!”
The unloved child suffers a soul-destroying abuse. No one sees it, no one marks on it, and the child just becomes a thing, in the eyes of her abusers as well as everyone else. They act out and of course this drives people further away. They become the monster who they were raised to be.
Because the scars don’t show don’t mean they aren’t there.
Respect and the Zuko-Ozai Agni Kai
"The Storm"
Iroh: Iroh After Zuko's outburst in the meeting, the Fire Lord became very angry with him. [Flashback quickly ends.] He said the challenge against the general was an act of complete disrespect! And there was only one way to resolve this. Iroh: That's right. Zuko looked upon the old general he had insulted and declared that he was not afraid. But Zuko misunderstood... Zuko had spoken out against the general's plan, but by doing so in the Fire Lord's war room, it was the Fire Lord whom he had disrespected. Ozai: You will fight for your honor. Young Zuko: [Frontal shot; kneels on his knees and forearms, while looking at the floor.] I meant you no disrespect. [Gazes up at his father, tears shimmering in his eyes as his voice starts to waver.] I am your loyal son. Ozai[: Far off frontal shot of Zuko as Ozai's shadow and eventually his head come into view.] Rise and fight, Prince Zuko! Ozai: You will learn respect, [Zuko pushes himself up on his knees and hands. Cut to a frontal shot of Zuko as he starts to shake.] and suffering will be your [Zuko looks up at Ozai, tears streaming down his face.] teacher. Iroh: It was no accident. After the duel, the Fire Lord said that by refusing to fight, Zuko had shown shameful weakness. As punishment, he was banished and sent to capture the Avatar. Only then could he return with his honor.
It's interesting to what degree "The Storm" narrative emphasizes the idea that the reason why Ozai dueled and burned Zuko is because Ozai found Zuko's actions disrespectful. It's not about Zuko being "soft-hearted" or "kind" or "anti-imperialist" or even about Ozai looking for an opportunity to get rid of Zuko, it's about Ozai perceiving Zuko's actions as disrespectful. Even the "shameful weakness" is probably partially a problem because Zuko is "disrespecting" the FN tradition of Agni Kai by refusing to fight after he'd agreed to and perhaps partially a problem since Zuko refused to respect Zuko's own honor by fighting to defend it.
Another interesting thing is while Ozai obsesses over Zuko's respect or disrespect, brining it up again in the DoBS, Azula just doesn't care. Unlike her father, she just doesn't care if Zuko is respectful or not. The only thing which matters to her in the end is whether Zuko is loyal or not.
This is hard to talk about in the piss-on-the-poor website that might misinterpret it and think I'm somehow "defending abuse", but I still want to mention.
When people write about the Agni Kai in fanfic, they often portray Zuko having to fight Ozai instead of the general as being some sort of cruel trick on Ozai's part.
But when Iroh is actually telling the story, what he says is that Zuko 'misunderstood'. And here comes the question. Does anybody else fucking know that? Does Ozai know that? That Zuko 'misunderstood'?
What I'm saying is, from the perspective of all those people there, do they interpret what happened that day as:
*Prince speaks out of turn*
*Fire lord says: "You'll have to fight me to defend your stance"*
*Prince says: "Sure! I'm not scared of you bitch!"*
*Prince proceeds to immediately start crying and shaking the second shit actually gets real and refuses to fight*
?
Is that what they all thought? Is that what they imagine happened when they say Zuko is a "coward"?
Did Zuko see his father on the other side of that arena and immediately had that same, sudden, and horrifying realization? Like immediate "oh no, fuck–I fuCKED UP!! NO! FUCK–"
Because ngl, that version sounds like it would've felt even more devastating for Zuko.
And if so, did Ozai ever find out? Did he ever find out and was like "Well, can't back down now! And nonetheless he's still stupid af so I kinda don't care". Or would he have reacted a different way? Did Ozai just never find out? Does Azula know?
(Straying from the point but I wonder if Zuko imagines his mother would be ashamed of him or something for not fighting in the Agni Kai, since she claimed his strength was that he "keeps fighting even though it's hard". Does he imagine he let her down that time?)
That's a good point.
When Zuko is having his whole confrontation with his father in the DoBS, Zuko doesn't claim Ozai tricked him, just that the very idea of the duel was cruel.
He also says that Ozai "challenged" him to the duel. We know that to fight an Agni Kai, you generally have to agree to it. It sounds almost like Zuko was issued an challenge and agreed to it, but misunderstood who was challenging him.
In any case, if Zuko was obviously misunderstanding what was going on, you would expect Iroh would have explained things to him. Of course, Iroh was busy being useless or actively detrimental to Zuko in this flashback, so maybe not? But I do think it's likely that Iroh only realized that Zuko had misunderstood who he was going to duel after the Agni Kai.
And not to defend Ozai, but like you said it does sound like he might have accidentally gotten himself into a situation where it was very hard for him to back down without looking weak and overly sentimental. Like maybe we should see his repeated commands to Zuko to fight back as Ozai basically begging Zuko to make the situation easier on everyone. And maybe we can see Ozai's decision to exile Zuko as partially payback to Zuko for making things so awkward? Or as part of a believe that the Fire Nation elite will never accept Zuko as heir after they saw him behave so shamefully?
This is not defend Ozai here. A better, non-abusive parent would never have challenged Zuko to a duel in the first place, and would have backed down in any case once things started going sideways in the duel, no matter the reputation cost. But it is interesting to try to get inside of Ozai's head, since the series gives us so little to work with.
The part about whether Ozai realized or not that Zuko misunderstood the situation is mostly just speculation and musings on my part. I can see Ozai finding out at any time (before the Agni Kai, after it, after having already banished Zuko, years later, or not at all). I genuinely do not have a preferred theory or hc in regards to this.
About Iroh, I thought of that, but as you said, there's the possibility Iroh hadn't even realized at the time that Zuko misunderstood. Another thing is that we don't even know if Iroh would've had the time or chance to have an one on one conversation with Zuko about this (and I doubt Iroh would try to talk about this publicly, he tends to avoid conflict anyway), and that preparations for the Agni Kai might've been hectic and rushed and everything just happened way too fast. It would be interesting to think whether Iroh tried to do damage control by either trying to guide Zuko or dissuade Ozai though. But there's no way we can know.
Yeah we really can't know about any of that stuff.
The rule of thumb for Iroh is generally that he can take action but taking action would be the slightest bit awkward or uncomfortable, he won't. So I can see Iroh knowing that Zuko is misunderstanding everything but still doing nothing.
The rule of thumb for Iroh is generally that he can take action but taking action would be the slightest bit awkward or uncomfortable, he won't. So I can see Iroh knowing that Zuko is misunderstanding everything but still doing nothing.
This is true with one exception, I fully believe Iroh won't take action if it's awkward/uncomfortable, with the notable exception of if said action will in some way make Azula's life worse.
But an incredible rule of thumb, frankly, very concise.
Why do people think Ozai is either this Azula clone or Zuko clone?
He either is either hyper-intelligent or super dumb?
He is either this or that?
The world ain't black and white you know?
He can have high cognitive empathy and charm but he can also be terrible at using it mostly because he hates it and thinks it's too vulnerable and dumb or unmanly.
He can be great with technology and taxes but terrible at strategy.
He can be great at firbending and terrible with weapons.
He can have high spiritual potential but thinks spirit stuff is stupid and never utilises his potential.
He can love and not abuse Ursa but not be doting, think he doesn't love her, stay away from her and take it for granted until it's too late and he realises he did actually feel comforted by her presence all along.
He can abuse Azula without it being sexual or physical.
He can both be selfish and manipulative to his children and still love them and feel protective of them.
He can high affective empathy and still be an abusive piece of shit and exactly how he is in canon(the show not comics btw).
He can be smarter than Azula in some things but dumber than her in others.
He can manipulate Azula but his teaching could have made her start manipulating him because that's how the cycle of abuse works.
But nah, he is either an Azula-Amon combo on steroids or a dumbass loud brute and a slightly smarter than Zuko, according to some parts of the fandom, ig.
Analyzing the Zuko-Ozai Conversation at the End of the Show
ATLA is a series notable for having many ending scenes. There are at least five or six different scenes in the series finale that could have worked as an ending scene. One of them is a scene that is not particularly well remembered: Zuko visiting Ozai in his prison cell.
(Note before we begin: Just to be clear, Zuko is under no obligation to forgive Ozai or to somehow "redeem" him or anything like that.")
If you want to watch the full scene, you can.
Let us start out with the thematic element. It's pretty clear the main theme of this scene is the role reversal between Zuko and Ozai. Now Zuko is the one with all the power, while Ozai is completely powerless and dejected. Their roles have reversed. It's also not a coincidence that Ozai is in the same prison Iroh was imprisoned in. Perhaps this role reversal, of having Ozai stripped of everything and humiliated and forced to live in a world where Zuko has triumphed is something Zuko enjoys; the role reversal is definitely something I think the audience is expected to enjoy.
Moving beyond that, it is worth noting the conditions Ozai is imprisoned in. He's wearing tattered, low quality clothes in a small, nearly bare prison cell. Iroh got a small window in his cell at the Capital City Prison, but Ozai doesn't seem to. Overall, the prison cells seem significantly worse than the conditions we see at Boiling Rock Prison. There is another key difference evident from what we say at Boiling Rock and what we see here. There are some cruel practices at Boiling Rock, but the prisoners at Boiling Rock were not kept in solitary confinement, while at the Capital City Prison they seem to be. This alone would make the experiences of anyone confined here much worse.
Now let us turn to the conversation itself. Zuko flat out tells Ozai that, if it was up to Zuko, Ozai would be dead, and he's lucky that it ended being up to Aang instead. That's not to say there's any indication that Zuko particularly wants to execute Ozai, now that Aang has made his decision, but it does imply that Zuko won't have a strong objection to the idea. It's pretty clear Zuko has not forgiven Ozai (nor is Zuko obligated to forgive Ozai).
Zuko then gives an interesting line: "Banishing me was the best thing you could have done for my life. It put me on the right path. Perhaps your time in here could do the same for you."
How should we evaluate this statement? Well, it's interesting that Ozai immediately calls it out as BS, calls out that Zuko would never visit Ozai just to tell him that Zuko hoped Ozai could become a better person, and Ozai is right. Zuko is only talking to Ozai because Zuko needs information about something else entirely.
If we listen to the audio, Zuko doesn't exactly sound entirely convinced or sincere, and we should probably view what he says to Ozai as essentially an idle thought on Zuko's part. Certainly, if Zuko was actually serious about the idea, you'd think Zuko would take steps to make sure Ozai was treated better than he's being treated.
But what if we take what Zuko says more seriously? What kind of "theory of redemption" do we get? It sounds like Zuko believes that having everything stripped away, that being humiliated and reduced to nothing, is prerequisite for change and for "redemption." It's almost like Ozai's "suffering will be your teacher" comment. And, say, if there was another character Zuko was interested in "redeeming," he might think the best way to go about doing it is reducing them to nothing, just like Ozai did him.
Of course, Zuko is under no obligation to forgive Ozai or to try to "redeem" him or anything else. As Ozai is a prisoner in Zuko's custody, Zuko probably has some sort of obligation to see Ozai is treated too terribly, but that's it.
It's also not clear how much any of this would apply to anyone else. Zuko has a unique relationship with Ozai, and it's not clear if we can apply anything from it to how he would treat, say, Azula.
Still, it's an interesting scene.
If Zuko truly does believe or wishes that Ozai can redeem himself and has still allowed this kind of environment then he really took Ozai's words to heart and hasn't yet learned to seperate himself from them.
And from his perspective it even makes sense somewhat. Zuko himself says banishment {stripping him of everything} was the best thing Ozai could have done to him then him following that same logic with Ozai makes sense.
Of course Zuko is under no obligation to help Ozai redeem in any way, its just interesting to think about what Zuko is really thinking here.