{Nat}

She’s got she’s got wig

[arcadiaak]

tattoo artist AU renee you're so hot and cool and I'm just a simple lesbian

[odysseus-day]

"the other ravens didn't know jean's age!!!"

think of any 16 year old boy you know. does he look like an adult to you? would you call him a whore if you'd found out he'd gotten into five different men's beds in less than a week?

no?

then think of a scrawny, underfed 16 year old boy. his face is bony, but not quite sharp. his nose is crooked, and a part of you thinks that maybe he just hasn't grown into his own face yet, at least until the bruising makes you want to look away before you can think about it any harder. none of his clothes fit him quite right, and you can always hear his joints popping in and out of place. he has the thickest accent you've ever heard, and you still don't quite know what he's saying most of the time, even if he swears it's english and looks close to tears if you insist it's anything but too loudly (he's only been in america for two years and it's hard to grasp much when all you have to develop your language skills from is cruel insults).

he's not as tall as the rest of the court yet — actually, he's far from it. he's not spared enough to build any muscle, even throughout the relentless practices, and he always looks five seconds from passing out by the time the drills even start. he's sweating, panting, and there's a rattling in his chest when he does... has he broken a rib? why is he even here? he's not as big, not nearly as strong, and the other ravens zero in on him until he's a puddle on the floor. he can barely keep his own racquet steady in his hands, and when he props it up to lean on, you realize he isn't much bigger than the damn thing itself. the captain is always dragging him around, sometimes by his wrist, sometimes by his hair. you think it's just messy hazing for a while, and maybe you dare to spare him a pitiful nod and hope for his sake it'll end soon, but months go by and it never does. he's doubled over one day, then running laps the next, and god, why does he always reek of blood? you start to notice his fingers as they change colors, once bony and milky pale, now bruised black and blue and crusted over with scabs. they're misshapen... broken, almost every one. he shouldn't be playing like this, but he tugs his gloves on with his teeth and plays through the pain.

you pass his room on your way to bed, door wide open. he sleeps curled up in a ball, back pressed so hard against the wall, knees into his chest. you can hear his shaky breaths, how his lungs rattle uneasily, even in his sleep. he shakes himself awake from nightmares, gripping the sheets, dry heaving as he forces his own face into the pillow to muffle the sound... but he does not scream. he does not cry. poor kid, you think, because what else could you call him? he's far too beaten down to even think to consider an adult. a puppy kicked one too many times.

the captain calls everyone into a room, arms folded over his chest, face smug as if he'd come up with a solution to the entire world's problems. but there's something strange about the meeting. only backliners. gigantic, sneering, male backliners. he asks for volunteers, a few good samaritans to "fuck some sense into him," and you watch as five greedy hands fight to be the first in the air. riko makes his pick, makes his promise, and for the next week it's all you can hear at night. you wouldn't call it moaning, but... screaming. fighting. teeth and claws and fickle words. "please. please stop. please stop. please—" and then silence. the last night all you hear is defeated silence.

and suddenly it's the child's fault, isn't it? everyone else is saying it, that he slept his way onto the lineup, that he's nothing more than a braindead whore. if everyone's saying it, though, does that make it true?

or is it just easier to stomach?

[anxiouslyandmessily]

the way we keep winning 🙂‍↕️🙂‍↕️🙂‍↕️🙂‍↕️🙂‍↕️🙂‍↕️ TBC IS GONNA BE SOOOOO LONG AND CHUNKY AND BEAUTIFUL

[elene78-blog]

Thea loves Jean.

In fact, if Jean has few defenses against her, she has none against Jean.

In this essay, I'm going to…

Yes, I'm going to talk about Thea and Jean, and the evidence that indicates Thea cares deeply for Jean. In fact, Nora is portraying her as a complex character, but we're either unable to see it… or we're not particularly interested in seeing it.

Let's begin.

First of all, I know there's a lot of hate toward Thea in the fandom, but… I think she has a MAJOR WEAKNESS toward Jean.

Let me explain…

Of the annoying conversation she and Jean have on TSC, I'm going to stick with the final "Marseille…", when she realizes she's messing things up with her comments. According to Jean, this is a peace offering that Jean chooses not to take (and she's right).

For me, this was a huge display of weakness and concern on Thea's part toward Jean. It was an attempt at "forgiveness," when she has "nothing to apologize for." Be careful! She has reason to apologize, but she doesn't know the truth about Jean, so for Thea, there's no real reason to apologize.

Considering how proud she is, that final show of weakness and "affection" tells me her defenses are very low with Jean. Honestly, I think this is equal to Kevin sending postcards to Jean. But add to that the fact that Thea doesn't know half of what Kevin knows, so… for me, her way of addressing him is incredibly important. She shows vulnerability and trust in Jean by calling him "Marseille," without being conditioned by Jean's dire situation, as Kevin is. This makes me understand that Paris was a pet name, not a mocking one.

We've all been left with her horrible words about the rumors, but not with the rest. Why? Because Thea isn't liked by the fandom due to her being Kevin's partner, the unusual circumstances in which they ended up together, and also due to her lack of acting in the original trilogy.

This tells me that there was already a preconceived idea that prevented some of us from seeing her as a three-dimensional character.

She's not just a tank. She's worried, but she still doesn't quite know what's going on and doesn't have the emotional empathy to deal with it (she's still a Raven).

In short, I think Nora tried to show us a three-dimensional character here, but… We decided to stick with the obvious, which supports that Thea isn't a character we love, and we ignored other actions that have more depth.

And all this because of that "Marseille…"?

Well, no, because in TGR, Nora once again uses Thea to show that she cares A LOT about what happens to Jean.

In TGR, Thea shows up and causes the Ravens to commit suicide.

As Jeremy points out in his POV after this, the press begins to indiscriminately criticize Kevin and Thea for their coldness when the Ravens commit suicide, diverting media attention from Jean to them.

Come on… Thea knew exactly how the Ravens would react. Thea knew it would cause their deaths, and if not, at least it would give them another target other than Jean (her and Kevin). She knew what would happen if the Ravens committed suicide after her words and that it would affect her own public image.

And honestly… what need did Thea have to do this? Absolutely none. In fact, we can say that her behavior here is completely "altruistic," because she received hate from the press when she had nothing to do with what happened (and no, she didn't do it for Kevin, since Kevin wasn't hurt and the Ravens' main targets were Neil and Andrew).

As Jean later says, Thea was Wymack's response when Jean asks David how to protect the Trojans.

I'm almost certain that Kevin, at Wymack's urging, planned Thea's intervention. To convince her to act, knowing it would ruin his reputation, he explained what had happened with Jean and Cat and Laila's house.

I think it was enough for Thea to know that Jean could be in danger to act. In fact, this would explain the look of contempt Thea gives Neil in TGR, since Thea and Neil haven't even interacted.

Thea gives Neil that look because she thinks Neil provoked this by mentioning Jean's ribs on air. And she's furious.

But… is that all?

No.

There were already signs in TRK that Thea cared about Jean. I just reread the part where she shows up to see Kevin, and there are several things we also tend to overlook about her.

Thea found out Kevin didn't want anything to do with the Ravens because she maintains contact with Jean, even three years after leaving The Nest. She called Jean to see what was going on because Kevin changed his number after leaving, without telling anyone, including her.

Thea lashes out at Kevin until Kevin mentions Jean. As soon as Kevin says Thea needs to see Jean (Thea didn't even know Jean was with the Foxes) and Wymack says "or what's left of him," Thea immediately shuts up and starts walking, letting Kevin lead the way.

I mean… Thea, who showed up demanding explanations like a steamroller, stops immediately when Kevin mentions Jean and the possibility that Jean is hurt.

All of this makes me think that when she mentions "your old tricks," she doesn't do it mockingly or with the intention of blaming Jean for what happened. Thea said it because she was genuinely worried that "Jean's actions" would cause him to be destroyed again. She knows Jean was punished and fears he'll be punished again for it.

Obviously, for someone outside of The Nest, nothing would justify this, but we know even Kevin has this mindset, so… can we blame her?

In short, the three times Thea appears in the novels, Thea shows genuine concern and appreciation for Jean, something that even leads her to damage her public image to protect him.

In reality, Thea shows far more appreciation for Jean than she does for Kevin in the novels.

Being Nora that she is, I think this is what she has tried to portray in each appearance with Thea, waiting for us to analyze it and come to the conclusions we always draw from her subtleties. But the hatred for Thea, which was already preconceived, has been so great that I think these subtleties have escaped us, and we've encouraged Thea's "mistakes" much more than her intentions behind them.

Personally, I'm really looking forward to some interaction between Thea and Jean with Jean healthy.

What do you think?

[vodkakevin]

So, what I think is that you made some good points but also some big stretches, imo.

—> "She has no reason to apologize"

You argue Thea doesn't apologize because she doesn't "know the truth" about Jean. But:

• She knows he was 16 and being passed around by much older men who immediately mocked him for it.

• Calling him "old tricks" reads as slut-shaming even without full knowledge because the phrase itself implies cunning and manipulation. So she wasn't just going off Jean's insistence that he "wanted it"-she clearly bought into the mocking about him doing it for a spot in the starting lineup.

• You say Thea fears Jean will be "destroyed again," but the text doesn't back that up. The scene explicitly says "she didn't have to spell it out when her tired tone said enough," and Jean's reaction is immediate—he flashes back to the ridicule, the open secret, the way everyone laughed it off as his choice. If Nora had wanted to show concern, she wouldn't have written Thea's tone as tired or linked it so clearly to the mockery Jean endured. What sets Jean off isn't the words alone —it's the fact that Thea says them in that tired tone. Cause then the narrative itself links her tone with Jean's memories of being laughed at, scorned, and called manipulative. Rather than worry, it reads as someone repeating the same old judgment they've heard before.

• You say "She knows Jean was punished and fears he'll be punished again for it" ? The punishment clearly already happened and she's looking at it and wording it that way with a tired tone. That's chastisement/sharp criticism.

• So even if she didn't realize it wasn't consensual, it's a stretch to say she had "nothing to apologize for" after throwing that line at someone in regards to something that happened when he was 16, as full 25-26 year old adult woman.

—> "we know even Kevin has this mindset"

Kevin never said anything by that implied Jean wasn't using the sex to get his way. He has a somewhat same mindset probably in the age of consent bs.

[kingofcups]

I was wondering if anyone else was like thrown off by the way the ravens were written in the new trilogy it just sort of seems that they were written to be as chaotic evil as possible. Which is like mildly disappointing bc I was rly excited abt portraying them as like actual characters.

[vodkakevin]

Yeah, it really feels like Nora dialed the Ravens up to cartoon-villain levels. The few Ravens who actually interact with Jean—Thea, Grayson, and Zane—basically just pop in to say something awful about his SA and then vanish. The one thing Nora really needed to put her writing energy into—the Ravens—got reduced to: 1) “old tricks,” 2) “I’m gonna fuck your skull,” and 3) “one last bite for the road.” That’s it.

The rest were Stormtrooper-level flat. Their only plan was literally “beat up the Foxes on live TV.” Be serious. And the frustrating part is Zane, Colleen, and Thea were the best candidates to show any redeeming qualities. There’s still hope for Zane in the last book to do anything other than blame Jean, beat him up, or bring up his SA… but Colleen’s dead, and Nora swears she won’t write more Thea scenes beyond “powerful strong woman” moments because of the fandom’s reception. Honestly, TGR makes me wonder if she just can’t write nuance without adding secret torture porn and she knows she can’t do that to her only POC female character. She’s out of moves.

[jeanmoreau29]

Jeremy Knox 10/10 character because the way he was portrayed to be this happy go lucky down to earth normal guy and then we get his pov and he’s like hi I am Gay I have Mommy Issues my brother killed himself while I was being arrested for doing Cocaine and having Gay Sex, I sleep with men who Hate Me to have some semblance of control, Sometimes I will have a panic attack Cigarette and I Don’t Sleep :)

[rottenroyal]

just gagged at the realization that we'll see jean from kevin's point of view

[vodkakevin]

It’s gonna hurt no matter what

[lepainsad]

If the 16-year-old doesn’t speak up, there’s no crime, right?

Came across this post:

What makes this argument deeply disturbing is the way it rationalizes Thea’s dismissal of Jean’s trauma through a combination of victim-blaming, legal technicalities (a whole paragraph dedicated to the age of consent in West Virginia vs. California), and emotional deflection—all while somehow spinning her response as compassionate (? It shifts the responsibility onto Jean for not speaking up, and ignores the weight of context, power dynamics, and obvious signs of distress. And yet, at the end Thea is framed as the one showing care. It’s a masterclass in institutional gaslighting disguised as nuance. Which is so raven of OP.

1. “No crime unless Jean speaks up”

This is perhaps the most jarring part. Are we really suggesting that unless a survivor explicitly says “I was raped,” there’s no wrongdoing to be acknowledged? Is OP seriously shifting the burden of proof and moral responsibility onto the traumatized, minor party? When said traumatized party was 16 and Thea’s own eyes were 22 going 23 at the time of the events? Yes, Kevin later echoes similar language in TGR, but let’s not forget: Kevin was raised in a cult from the age of eight. His judgement and inability to call abuse what it is isn’t a moral compass.

2. Rape as a legal technicality

This argument brings up the age of consent across state lines to defend Thea’s supposed ignorance, which centers legality over ethics—Jean being 16 and passed around by adult teammates (most the same age as Thea) shouldn’t be morally ambiguous just because it may not meet statutory definitions.

The argument tries to defend Thea’s ignorance by citing the age of consent in West Virginia (16) vs. California (18), as if statutory definitions were the only metric for harm. But this isn’t just a legal issue—it’s an ethical one. Jean was 16, passed around by adults Thea’s age, in a violent cult environment where he clearly showed signs of distress. The whole ordeal shouldn’t be morally ambiguous just because it may not meet statutory definitions.

And it’s ironic: we talk all the time about how brainwashed Thea was into normalizing all kinds of abuse for the sake of stickball—but now we’re supposed to believe she was well-versed in legal nuances and clear-headed enough to clock the implications of Virginian consent law? You can’t have it both ways.

3. Excusing Thea’s comment based on Jean’s own silence!!!!!

Yes, Jean says “they were just mistakes” and that he liked it—but we’re also told he came to practice with bite marks, sobbed through the night, and carried visible pain. Again: he was sixteen. Using a traumatized kid’s own minimization to justify a 22–23-year-old’s dismissal—especially in a setting where vulnerability is punished—is deeply unsettling. No, Thea wasn’t obligated to be Jean’s protector. But the fact that years later, outside the Nest, she still chose to interpret his silence and suffering through a phrase like “old tricks”—which implies manipulation, cunning, and blame—is absolutely worth examining.

4. “Old tricks” is rebranded as compassion ???

Framing her comment and “tired tone” as compassionate rather than apathetic or cruel is revisionist. “Old tricks” in this context refers to Jean being sexually exploited as a minor in a tone that implies scheming. If Thea really, to quote the post, “ had no reason to see a victim but every reason to see a struggling teen she cared about making bad choices” , why refer to it that way? You don’t call a 16-year-old getting passed around by your peers “old tricks” unless you’re trying to frame his abuse as his own manipulation.

English is not my first language but quick search gave me these definitions:

Cambridge Dictionary: “If someone is up to their old tricks, they are behaving in the bad or dishonest way that they used to in the past.”

Collins Dictionary: “If you say that someone is up to their old tricks, you mean that they are behaving in a dishonest or unpleasant way, as they often did in the past.”

Also, to claim this is compassionate compared to the current Ravens is a stretch and a low bar.

5. Apparently we are praising Thea for not being worse

The post tries to frame Thea’s restraint—as in, the fact that she didn’t mock or assault Jean—as somehow virtuous. But we actually have no confirmation that she didn’t join in the mocking. Jean never says either way. And if anything, her wording years later in TSC (“old tricks”) and her praise of Tetsuji’s legacy in TGR suggest she likely followed his lead back then when he shamed and punished Jean for being a whore. Her stance was most likely not as neutral / bystander as some of you make it up to be.

And her behavior in TSC and TGR certainly doesn’t read as compassionate. She:

Threatens to break Jean’s ribs unless he talks

Calls him “Paris” while he’s visibly upset

Only shows concern when she’s not getting what she wants and is told to go away

And continues to uphold Raven ideology, pledging loyalty to Tetsuji even after everything.

In short, the defense post reads less like a nuanced analysis and more like a masterclass in institutional gaslighting—an elaborate attempt to justify an adult character’s apathy toward a minor everyone in the Nest knew was being specifically targeted and tortured (as Jean himself says). It’s so raven of OP. It prioritizes Thea’s emotional comfort over Jean’s trauma and reframes her dismissiveness as empathy. That’s what makes it so deeply unsettling.

P.S. For perspective, here are some photos of actual 16-year-old actors. Take a look and ask yourself—would it not be jarring to see a 22- or 23-year-old adult sleeping with someone who looks like that? Don't you “oh but Tom Holland and Thomas Sangster look way too young for their age”, because Jean himself said that the other ravens were “so much smaller bigger and stronger”, so he might have as well been a Tom Holland type.

[lepainsad]

In conclusion:

STOP using legal frameworks to justify dismissal of abuse!! Kevin brings up the age of consent as a tool to justify his cult framework. Jeremy wasn’t listening to that shit — he immediately walked away, and Kevin had to grab his arm to keep him standing there for that cult nonsense.

The weird-ass apathy Kevin and Thea show stems from the cult setting, not from some legality they kept tucked inside that setting.

[vodkakevin]

agreed! the ravens weren’t using legal or moral reasoning the way people outside the nest would. they judged right and wrong through the cult’s ideology.

The law might’ve still existed in the back of their minds as a reference point or a way to justify what they were doing, but it wasn’t what shaped their view of Jean’s abuse. The cult was!

[casszanova]

Fem jerejean!!

[moonsnqil]

pretty dead things

[karmacharmeleon18]

Hunger Games AU where Jean volunteers to save his beloved sister Elodie and Jeremy is the sweet boy with a horribly abusive family who doesn't believe in him

(for the sake of this, boys can volunteer in place of girls)

(it's up to you whether Elodie dies or survives the story...)

(yes, Kevin is Gale)

[vershmer]

Jeremy: 😊

Jeremy when Jean speaks French: 😳😳😳

[loverboymoreau]

Very interesting how, despite being the raven who went through the most extreme abuse, Jean is (most likely) going to end up being the most well adjusted one of them all. And that is largely because Jean had more of a support system than most of them, but that's not all it is. If Jean had turned up in California and absolutely refused to budge on anything, refused to let people in, and just been as generally vile as most of the Ravens are, it doesn't matter how much the trojans or anyone else would've tried, he still wouldn't heal, and he'd probably be just another raven who killed himself. Yes, Jean has a support system, and that is helping him significantly, but he himself actively WANTS to get better. He's trying, he is going to therapy, he is adopting Trojan playstyle and ideology, he's actively challenging everything he's been taught, he has already come to acknowledge being a raven is not the best thing someone could be. The difference in Jean's mindset and attitude from the beginning of the sunshine court to the end of the golden raven is staggering, he's changed so much already, in ways most of the Ravens probably wouldnt have been able to no matter what sort of support system they were given. Fact is Jean is just such a loving and inherently kind individual that he can't help but let people in, and previously letting people in only hurt him, but now he's safe to, and in letting those people in he opened himself up to changing the way he thinks. And THAT'S what's allowing him to heal. He has the support system, he's making an effort, and he's making that effort because he is a loving person with an open heart. People can't change and heal unless they're willing to, and at the beginning it may have seemed he Would be unwilling, but deep down a part of Jean always knew the way he was treated was wrong and he wanted people to SEE how wrong it was, although he wouldn't admit that, and he wanted a life filled with things he wasn't allowed as a raven, so he was more willing to open his mind. Jean was never much of a raven in terms of personality, most of them were thoroughly corrupted by the nest, but nothing could ever change his soft heart, and I really don't think any raven other than Jean could make the steps that he has, even with the same support system

Kevin maybe would have, because Kevin was also able to acknowledge that what was happening in the nest was wrong after his hand was broken, and I dont think most Ravens can or will admit that. And I know there was some discussion a little while ago about if the trojans would've been better for Kevin than the foxes and maybe he'd be more healed if he'd gone to them instead, but ultimately I think not, personally. Kevin isn't as kind as Jean is, and although he admires the trojans so much I think he'd have been more willing to adjust to their playstyle, Kevin is just a bit more abrasive in my opinion, and it's hard for me to imagine him in that environment. I think ultimately if Kevin had gone to the trojans his healing would be different, but not necessarily better. I think more than anything he needed Wymack, which is obviously why he went to the foxes, and I think he doesn't need the trojans' gentleness the way Jean does. But regardless, as it is i do think Jean is going to end up more well adjusted than Kevin, it's kind of implied in tgr that Jean is in some ways already more healed than Kevin, because he's less defeatist that this is all he is and ever will be

And I just think, it's kinda odd to think the one who went through THAT much is the one most likely to live a relatively normal life, but doesn't he deserve it? I think he does

[frckldmnstr]

[aftg-confession-blog]

I wish Jeremy and Jean weren’t so attractive in canon, they feel like a chinese BL novel with both being probably in the top 3 most handsome with Kevin . Couldn’t one of them be normal looking? Like Andrew in Andreil? Or at least I wish Nora hadn’t made both POVs in Jean’s trilogy be so eager to describe how freaking attractive the other is from the get go.

.

[vodkakevin]

AHAH this is diabolical

I’m remembering how Annalise, a heterosexual, Cat, a lesbian, and Jeremy a gay man recognized Jean’s hotness on spot.

[zombiecowboy65]

Kevin making Jean promise to stay alive in a place where he knew he’d be tortured and raped on repeat was actually so fucked up and selfish but u guys don’t wanna have that convo. U wanna have the convo where the story revolves around Kevin day. And excuse all the parts of the story where Kevin is someone’s villain! Was he wrong for escaping abuse ? No. Was he fucked up for making Jean promise to stay alive and then using him to escape when he (in his own words) “knew what [riko] would do [jean] as soon as [riko] realized he was gone” and therefore trapping him in an endless cycle of abuse? Yeah. He didn’t give a second thought to Jean after he left that nest. And oh boo hoo he felt guilty. Oh boo hoo he had to witness it all and bear the pain of surviving. He felt guilty bc he knew it was wrong. Neil calls him out on it. “You left him once don’t do it again” . THATS the reason Kevin sent him to usc. Not because of Jean’s crush. Not out of the goodness of his heart. He did it for the same reason he’s done everything. Guilt

[leroiestmortvivelareine]

Kevin prioritised escaping over fixing Jean's situation (how exactly???). Jean prioritised his own wellbeing over stopping Riko from torturing Neil. Neil prioritised running his mouth over the wellbeing of his teammates. Mary prioritised her version of survival over her son's wants and needs. Andrew prioritised his version of Aaron's safety over his brother's wants and needs. Nicky prioritised mild sexual gratification over another person's consent. Jeremy prioritised a goddamn cocaine-fuelled gay orgy over looking after his brother. It's almost like they're a bunch of broken human beings or something.

[vodkakevin]

I agree they are all lovable broken characters but come on none of these are comparable: Andrew and Mary did what they did bc they genuinely thought it was in their family’s best interests. Neil didn’t know Riko was gonna go after someone other than himself or Kevin. In Kevin’s case though, he himself said he knew what they were gonna do to Jean sexual abuse included and in his grief he never thought of Jean’s (always worse than Kevin’s) situation.

I’m not including Nicky because what he did was straight up fucked up and it’s not debatable.

The only sort of comparable situation is Jeremy’s. But even then he didn’t know it was gonna happen THAT NIGHT and he had warned his mother multiple times.

[leroiestmortvivelareine]

So, assuming there's an alternate timeline where Kevin makes the 'correct' choice, what would that look like? Giving Jean permission to die? Taking on the entire Nest literally singlehandedly? Because merely remaining at EA wouldn't make life ok for Jean. In all fairness if you were in his shoes what would you have done differently?

[vodkakevin]

I really can’t even begin to imagine how it’d be to be in his situation so I won’t say what “I’d have done if I were in his shoes” and I don’t know about the no suicide pact— but I wish he hadn’t asked for Jean’s help and left him looking so red handed to his rapists

[leroiestmortvivelareine]

Kevin wishes that too! He knows exactly how badly he fucked up and blames himself very much for that fatal outburst. I've had bones badly broken and you really aren't much more than a wretched bawling beast at the time - I'd hate to be judged on my behaviour in moments of intense pain.

[vodkakevin]

I get that its pain makes people raw and reactive. But reacting out of pain and betraying someone are two different things. Betrayal involves choice and before making that choice, Kevin explicitly says that he knew what would happen to Jean—he considered that Jean was going to be brutalized in every possible way because of it. And this happened just after using French in front of Riko. And he still went through with it. It was a deliberate decision made out of desperation but with full awareness of the consequences.

My point is that every time someone brings up that Kevin consciously made a choice that would have Jean half killed, assaulted and then treated worse than shit for months Kevin fans always fully justify it with “it was his only chance, he was in lots of pain, full of grief, desperate to not lose exy” and though all of those are true it’s not that simple! He was out of choices but also wrong. And OP can call out one side all they want, because it’s objectively fair.

[leroiestmortvivelareine]

I don't see anybody (including Kevin) denying it was wrong. But you can agree someone did wrong and still show them some understanding. Doesn't mean caring less about Jean (why would it?). I just don't believe in judging someone too harshly when I myself wouldn't have done any better in their shoes.

In the interests of fairness, if Kevin is to be so harshly judged where is the condemnation for Jean consciously making a choice to hold Neil down for Riko? He could have refused and accepted the consequences, but he chose not to. No one wants to remember that happened but it did.

[vodkakevin]

I’m sorry I’m always making walls of texts:

You’re right, no one is saying Kevin’s actions weren’t wrong, and yes, it’s possible to understand why someone did something without excusing it. But understanding pain isn’t the same as removing accountability (which most Kevin fans do) . Kevin made a calculated decision while fully aware of what would happen to Jean (worse than any abuse Kevin ever experienced as per Nora’s EC) and that still deserves criticism.

As for the comparison to Jean: that’s not the gotcha moment you think it is. Jean was actively being tortured and mentally broken down over months (thanks to Kevin too, cause Jean lost the little trust Riko and Tetsuji had on him), not reacting to a single moment of pain. The power dynamics between Riko and Jean were entirely different—Riko owned Jean’s life. Jean not fighting back isn’t the same as Kevin choosing to send someone to that fate.

[leroiestmortvivelareine]

yeah I'm making text walls instead of writing my stupid job application.

I dunno, I stalk this place as much as the next crazy person and I'd say the fandom in general is well aware that no one is blameless and no one is completely to blame... unless they're Moriyamas anyway.

Wonder how things will change after reading Kevin's POV (other than us all needing therapy.)

[vodkakevin]

Sorry this went on for so long

I jus wanted to say that I don’t think “everyone’s messed up in these books” should stop us from really sitting with the weight of Kevin’s choices.

Like, yes, nuance is important, and yes, we can sympathize with Kevin and still hold him accountable for the fact that he knowingly put Jean in a situation where he’d be brutalized. My last point (I promise) is that it’s not about blaming one person for everything—it’s about not glossing over really serious moments just because the characters are complex and well loved.

EDIT: Good luck job hunting!!!

[zombiecowboy65]

Kevin making Jean promise to stay alive in a place where he knew he’d be tortured and raped on repeat was actually so fucked up and selfish but u guys don’t wanna have that convo. U wanna have the convo where the story revolves around Kevin day. And excuse all the parts of the story where Kevin is someone’s villain! Was he wrong for escaping abuse ? No. Was he fucked up for making Jean promise to stay alive and then using him to escape when he (in his own words) “knew what [riko] would do [jean] as soon as [riko] realized he was gone” and therefore trapping him in an endless cycle of abuse? Yeah. He didn’t give a second thought to Jean after he left that nest. And oh boo hoo he felt guilty. Oh boo hoo he had to witness it all and bear the pain of surviving. He felt guilty bc he knew it was wrong. Neil calls him out on it. “You left him once don’t do it again” . THATS the reason Kevin sent him to usc. Not because of Jean’s crush. Not out of the goodness of his heart. He did it for the same reason he’s done everything. Guilt

[leroiestmortvivelareine]

Kevin prioritised escaping over fixing Jean's situation (how exactly???). Jean prioritised his own wellbeing over stopping Riko from torturing Neil. Neil prioritised running his mouth over the wellbeing of his teammates. Mary prioritised her version of survival over her son's wants and needs. Andrew prioritised his version of Aaron's safety over his brother's wants and needs. Nicky prioritised mild sexual gratification over another person's consent. Jeremy prioritised a goddamn cocaine-fuelled gay orgy over looking after his brother. It's almost like they're a bunch of broken human beings or something.

[vodkakevin]

I agree they are all lovable broken characters but come on none of these are comparable: Andrew and Mary did what they did bc they genuinely thought it was in their family’s best interests. Neil didn’t know Riko was gonna go after someone other than himself or Kevin. In Kevin’s case though, he himself said he knew what they were gonna do to Jean sexual abuse included and in his grief he never thought of Jean’s (always worse than Kevin’s) situation.

I’m not including Nicky because what he did was straight up fucked up and it’s not debatable.

The only sort of comparable situation is Jeremy’s. But even then he didn’t know it was gonna happen THAT NIGHT and he had warned his mother multiple times.

[leroiestmortvivelareine]

So, assuming there's an alternate timeline where Kevin makes the 'correct' choice, what would that look like? Giving Jean permission to die? Taking on the entire Nest literally singlehandedly? Because merely remaining at EA wouldn't make life ok for Jean. In all fairness if you were in his shoes what would you have done differently?

[vodkakevin]

I really can’t even begin to imagine how it’d be to be in his situation so I won’t say what “I’d have done if I were in his shoes” and I don’t know about the no suicide pact— but I wish he hadn’t asked for Jean’s help and left him looking so red handed to his rapists

[leroiestmortvivelareine]

Kevin wishes that too! He knows exactly how badly he fucked up and blames himself very much for that fatal outburst. I've had bones badly broken and you really aren't much more than a wretched bawling beast at the time - I'd hate to be judged on my behaviour in moments of intense pain.

[vodkakevin]

I get that its pain makes people raw and reactive. But reacting out of pain and betraying someone are two different things. Betrayal involves choice and before making that choice, Kevin explicitly says that he knew what would happen to Jean—he considered that Jean was going to be brutalized in every possible way because of it. And this happened just after using French in front of Riko. And he still went through with it. It was a deliberate decision made out of desperation but with full awareness of the consequences.

My point is that every time someone brings up that Kevin consciously made a choice that would have Jean half killed, assaulted and then treated worse than shit for months Kevin fans always fully justify it with “it was his only chance, he was in lots of pain, full of grief, desperate to not lose exy” and though all of those are true it’s not that simple! He was out of choices but also wrong. And OP can call out one side all they want, because it’s objectively fair.

[leroiestmortvivelareine]

I don't see anybody (including Kevin) denying it was wrong. But you can agree someone did wrong and still show them some understanding. Doesn't mean caring less about Jean (why would it?). I just don't believe in judging someone too harshly when I myself wouldn't have done any better in their shoes.

In the interests of fairness, if Kevin is to be so harshly judged where is the condemnation for Jean consciously making a choice to hold Neil down for Riko? He could have refused and accepted the consequences, but he chose not to. No one wants to remember that happened but it did.

[vodkakevin]

I’m sorry I’m always making walls of texts:

You’re right, no one is saying Kevin’s actions weren’t wrong, and yes, it’s possible to understand why someone did something without excusing it. But understanding pain isn’t the same as removing accountability (which most Kevin fans do) . Kevin made a calculated decision while fully aware of what would happen to Jean (worse than any abuse Kevin ever experienced as per Nora’s EC) and that still deserves criticism.

As for the comparison to Jean: that’s not the gotcha moment you think it is. Jean was actively being tortured and mentally broken down over months (thanks to Kevin too, cause Jean lost the little trust Riko and Tetsuji had on him), not reacting to a single moment of pain. The power dynamics between Riko and Jean were entirely different—Riko owned Jean’s life. Jean not fighting back isn’t the same as Kevin choosing to send someone to that fate.