I think not enough people recognize the difference between PALPATINE'S PLAN not needing Anakin to succeed and whether Palpatine would've ACTUALLY succeeded if he hadn't turned Anakin to his side.
Because yes, at no point is Palpatine ever making Anakin SO essential to his plans that he couldn't succeed without him. If Anakin somehow got himself killed or just didn't get manipulated quite enough by Palpatine or something, Palpatine is not ever planning on that being an issue.
But that doesn't automatically mean that Palpatine WOULD'VE succeeded regardless of Anakin's involvement.
Because here's the thing. If Anakin's choices don't matter to the narrative, if his choice in that office wouldn't have changed if Palpatine won or not, if he could literally have been written out of the story or killed off early and had nothing really change all that much, then why is this the story we're being told?
The whole POINT of seeing Anakin's story play out and having Anakin be the center of it is to tell us that his choices DO matter, that his existence DOES change things and that the decision he makes at that moment between Mace and Palpatine, Jedi and Sith, is a TURNING POINT that everything has been leading to. There would not be a story if Anakin and his choices didn't matter at all to the outcome. It would be someone else's story, like Padme or Obi-Wan or Palpatine. But it's not. It's Anakin's. And that automatically tells us that yes, Anakin's choices MATTER because that's the entire fucking point of the whole thing existing in the first place.
And looking beyond that, the worldbuilding of Star Wars is that everyone has a "destiny" but you only get to ACHIEVE said destiny if you CHOOSE it. And Anakin's destiny is told to us, very clearly, that he is a Chosen One capable of destroying the darkness and bringing balance back to the Force. It's what he ultimately DOES DO later when he finally chooses that path at the very end of his life. Which means that Anakin COULD'VE chosen that destiny in Palpatine's office and it WOULD'VE MATTERED because his entire destiny is to destroy Palpatine and the Sith along with him the moment he decides to walk that path. It's basically guaranteed to him once he makes that choice. The only reason it DOESN'T happen in that moment and Mace dies and Palpatine lives is because Anakin DOESN'T CHOOSE THAT PATH. He defies his own destiny.
So, yes, Anakin is entirely irrelevant to Palpatine's plan. But also, simultaneously, Anakin is the reason Palpatine succeeds because he chose to defy his own destiny which was to defeat Palpatine. Palpatine's plan and Anakin's destiny are entirely mutually exclusive things. Anakin is both completely irrelevant and the most relevant thing in the galaxy at the exact same time.
This is why I blame Anakin for literally everything the Empire ever does, regardless of his personal involvement in it. Anakin's choice allowed the Empire to exist and he had the opportunity to prevent it and chose to enforce it instead, so everything it does from then on is HIS FAULT more than almost anybody else.
This is also why I don't believe that Anakin's death or simple lack of involvement in the greater story wouldn't have changed anything, that the Jedi would still have been killed and Palpatine would've won. That's not a guarantee, it was NEVER inevitable. Anakin's destiny is to destroy the Sith and bring balance back, yes, but only if he chose it. So if he's gone, then the future is WIDE FUCKING OPEN and the Jedi looked to be on the path to taking out Palpatine just fine on their own before Anakin fucked everything up.
I agree. Anakin's choices during the rise of the Empire are central to the narrative of the Star Wars prequels and as retroactive backstory for Vader's decisions in the original trilogy.
Palpatine's plan for the destruction of the Jedi and the creation of the Empire is pretty much set by the end of The Phantom Menace. From here, without much intervention, Palpatine is in the position of power that lets him accumulate more to the point of becoming Emperor by Revenge of the Sith.
But the main story of the prequels centers on Anakin Skywalker, the one piece of the puzzle that Palpatine had no plan for by the time he got elected to chancellorship in The Phantom Menace. Anakin, who's origins are reminiscent of classic tales of evil forces overlooking what will eventually become their downfall, should be the perfect countermeasure to Palpatine's and the Sith's plans. This is essentially the Chosen One prophesy, where Anakin is uniquely in a position where he can both challenge the Sith and is powerful enough to effectively do so. Except Palpatine doesn't overlook Anakin. Instead, he tempts Anakin away from this destiny to the point of Anakin refusing to consider hurting Palpatine's plans.
Without Anakin present, Palpatine would have won anyway because anyone who could challenge him by the time Revenge of the Sith comes around is not able to do so.
(I know it is contested whether Mace could have beaten Palpatine on his own, but I disagree. By the time the Jedi Masters arrive in the Chancellor's Office, Palpatine already has his board set with pieces moving, specifically his knowledge that Anakin is rapidly approaching. He kills Saesee, Agen, and Kit very easily, continuing to duel with Mace to the point that Mace considers them to be at an impasse. Mace tries to gain the upper hand by using the fear that he assumes is from Palpatine against him, only for Palpatine to reveal the fear is from Anakin. The later half of the duel is heavily implied to be a situation specifically designed by Palpatine to place Anakin in a position to side with Palpatine, which he does. What makes this difficult is discerning whether Mace could have beaten Palpatine if he was actually fighting to his fullest. We don't know because it never plays out like that, but given the Chosen One prophecy tied with the ease in Palpatine's fighting, I'm going to guess that Mace would have lost the fight anyway.)
Anakin's presence in the story, while both interesting to see his descent play out over the course of decades, shows us a character who could have stopped Palpatine and chose not to.
Part of what makes the showdown on Coruscant so heartbreaking is the audience wanting Anakin to fulfill his destiny here, while knowing this will not happen until way later in Return of the Jedi. We know, as the audience, that Anakin had the power to stop Palpatine but chose not to for personal interests.
It can't even be argued that Anakin disarming Mace was just a poorly thought-out decision that put Anakin in a bad position because he doubles down by continuing to refuse to stop Palpatine after the duel's end. He choses over and over again to not stop him because he weighed the lives of the entirety of the Jedi against himself and his loved ones, and decided to help the doom of the galaxy.
Yes, the Empire would have happened if Anakin wasn't present, but he was, had the option to stop it, and joined instead.
Eh, well, we half agree. Much like in my last reblog of this post, I think it kind-of pulls away from the tragedy if we assume the Empire was fairly inevitable and that Palpatine had essentially won by the end of TPM. I get your argument about it, but I think part of the reason I personally believe that Mace could've won against Palpatine is related to how I feel about the prophecy and how I interpret the way it works in Star Wars.
For me, the prophecy is REAL, Anakin CAN destroy Palpatine if he chooses to do so, but he can also DEFY said prophecy forever if he truly wanted to. The prophecy is a guarantee of success for Anakin, but only if he actually goes for it, and that's ALL it is. It doesn't mean no one else CAN succeed, just that no one else has a GUARANTEE of success if they try it.
So I believe that Mace could've succeeded, this was absolutely possible and given that Palpatine does clearly get very injured for the rest of his life as a result of that fight, I think he was well on his way to succeeding before Anakin stepped in. I am firmly of the believe that Mace WOULD'VE won if Anakin hadn't showed up. Would this have meant that Anakin never fulfilled the prophecy? Yes. Does this mean there's now no balance in the Force? No. Anakin was one way for that to happen and one of the EASIEST ways for it to happen, but I refuse to believe it's the ONLY way.
The other reason I kinda believe this is because of how TCW treats the Force ghosts in its arc about them in season 6. The Force priestesses appear to be explicitly giving a few chosen Jedi the ability to ghost when they die BECAUSE ANAKIN'S SUCCESS IS NOT A GUARANTEE and they're coming up with alternatives for how to manage the situation if Anakin fails. Which means there can BE alternatives to find balance in the Force even without his help.
So, again, the idea that Mace COULD'VE killed Palpatine and sort-of subverted the prophecy if Anakin didn't show up in time seems extremely possible to me.
And for me, that's a large part of the tragedy. Because while it's all about Anakin, it's also... NOT all about Anakin. It's also about the Republic and the Senate and the regular citizens of the galaxy. Anakin's choices absolutely matter and are central to this story, everyone else's choices matter, too. The Senate was just as capable of choosing better as Anakin was, given the chance. The possibility that there COULD'VE been a happy ending here, even without Anakin getting involved, is a MASSIVE part of the tragedy to me. They could've won. They were THIS CLOSE to winning. And not JUST because Anakin had a choice in that room, but because Mace was ALSO making a choice in that moment, because Agen and Kit and Saesee made their own choices when they walked into that office.
THEY WOULD'VE WON, the Jedi had outwitted Palpatine despite all of the effort he put in to take them down. He had to spend DECADES building up a political career and making connections with the Trade Federation to get himself into a position of power so he could start a galactic civil war so he could hobble the Jedi enough to eliminate them as his enemies, and they nearly upended ALL OF THAT EFFORT within a few days of deciding he was too powerful to be allowed to stay in power. That's how strong they were, that's how powerful they were, THAT'S why Palpatine wanted them dead and gone because they were so absolutely capable of beating him and HE KNOWS THAT. He would not have put that much effort into getting rid of them otherwise. The Jedi would've won, and the only reason they didn't was because Anakin made a selfish decision.
I dunno, I think the tragedy hits better for me to realize that they absolutely would've won in there, that they were THIS CLOSE and literally if Anakin had just like tripped and fallen on his way to the Senate building or something, they WOULD'VE won. For me, Anakin is important because he guarantees that they lose, not because he's the single guarantee that they win.
Star Wars has always been a story about how it takes EVERYBODY to get rid of darkness and hatred and evil, but it only takes ONE PERSON to bring everything good crashing down.
@waddle-dee-94
Wait, I had more thoughts.
Okay, so here's the thing that may bridge the gap between us a little. It IS still ultimately Anakin's choice that determines everything, but the choice does not have to equate to ACTION.
Because remember, Anakin is making choices ALL THE WAY THROUGH, not just at the last moment, AND THEY ALL MATTER. So he's not JUST making a choice when he lops off Mace's hand, he's ALSO making a choice when he decides to leave the Temple and come to Palpatine's office in the first place (explicitly against Mace's orders to stay away from this fight). They intentionally juxtapose that shot of Anakin looking out the window in the Council chamber with a shot of Padme looking out the window of her apartment FOR A REASON, and the reason is that this choice he makes in this moment is equally as important (if not more so) than the one he makes in Palpatine's office.
By the time he arrives in Palpatine's office, while he can still obviously choose to change his mind and side with Mace if he wanted to, he has arguably already MADE the choice to side with Palpatine no matter what that will mean. He HOPES he can talk Mace down from killing Palpatine, but he's prepared to do whatever it takes to keep Palpatine alive.
BUT HE DIDN'T HAVE TO COME TO PALPATINE'S OFFICE AT ALL. Anakin COULD'VE chosen to stay at the Temple, he could've chosen to trust that Mace and the other Jedi had it handled, he could've chosen to accept the possibility of Palpatine's death. And I think the emphasis on Anakin making the choice to leave the Temple in the first place tells us that that choice is equally as defining IF NOT MORE SO than the one he makes to chop Mace's hand off. And if we accept that as true, then it means that Anakin could've chosen INACTION and that this would've counted as a choice that saved the galaxy.
Because think about it, nothing we know of the prophecy (which, canonically, is EXTREMELY little) specifies that Chosen One kills the Sith Lord. Yoda himself mentions that prophecies can often be misunderstood and misread. People are ASSUMING how that story might play out based on what's in the prophecy, sure, but that doesn't necessarily have to mean that that's RIGHT. It doesn't even mean that there's only ONE WAY for the story to end. Canonically, as per word of god, Anakin could've ended things in Palpatine's office that day if he'd wanted to. He doesn't, but then he DOES end things later on the Death Star 2.0. This already tells us that there can be multiple options to fulfilling a prophecy.
And Anakin canonically struggles a LOT with letting go, with trusting in the will of the Force, so if he'd chosen to stay in the Temple in that moment, he'd have been doing both. He'd have been finding a balance IN HIMSELF that he's never truly had before, and, in doing so, allowing balance to be restored in the galaxy as Mace is left to finish off Palpatine. Anakin's state of being typically follows the state of the galaxy. When he is at his most unbalanced in ROTS, the galaxy is at war and suffering under corruption. When he finds a modicum of balance again in ROTJ, it is after the galaxy has come together through the Rebellion to fight against corruption and greed. So it follows, thematically, that if Anakin had somehow miraculously found balance in that moment in the Council chambers and chosen to let go of his need to control the outcome of the story, the fate of the galaxy would have followed suit.
So it IS Anakin's choice still that ultimately decides the fate of the galaxy, it's just not the choice you THINK it is. Or, more accurately, Anakin makes MULTIPLE choices that determine the fate of the galaxy and he could've chosen differently at any point along that path and sent things in a different direction, and one of those choices COULD HAVE BEEN the choice to simply NOT ACT. But Anakin's choice in that moment only matters if you believe that Palpatine would have died at Mace's hand if Anakin hadn't shown up.
I see your point. I was definitely focusing a bit more on Anakin and his role in the prequel movies' story in my previous reblog than on other factors impacting the Sith's plan. While I'm still hesitant to conclude the showdown on Coruscant with a clear, definitive winner when removing Anakin from the equation, the impact of Anakin's choices when the winner of the duel would have been Mace does give Anakin a power that is reminiscent of or outright caused by his Chosen One status, both in-universe and out-of-universe. He gained that power by forcing himself into the duel to help decide its outcome. His reasoning behind his involvement is also based partially on his belief that he is the Chosen One (though his thoughts on this seem to be used by him to remain ignorant of his true wants when arriving at the Senate, that being to save Palpatine from death as a step to saving Padmé). By having Mace as the true winner when without interference, the role Anakin plays in the story gets very interesting.
Anakin's belief in the prophecy, at least partially, pushes him to involve himself to the point of disregarding the prophecy and heavily impacting the galaxy, which is a bit of a mindbender. This belief from him is shown to be based off his own feelings of powerlessness, relating to his worries about Padmé, the war, and his own experiences with powerlessness in the past. But his belief contradicts with his reality where he does have the power to influence, to the point of deciding the fate of the galaxy.
I liked your point about him struggling with trusting the will of the Force being integral to his struggle with finding balance in himself which impacts the balance of the galaxy. The balance of the galaxy does seem to shift based on Anakin's balance, with the Revenge of the Sith novelization showing Anakin's explicit tipping of the scales between "himself" and "Vader" when accepting to be Palpatine's apprentice, coinciding with the fall of the Republic.
Anakin's belief in the prophecy, based partially in his own feelings of powerlessness, combined with his heavily unbalanced nature and lack of trust in the Force at the time of the showdown push him to try to take matters into his own hands. The power of the Chosen One seems to be a bit of a mix between simple power in the Force as well as power in influencing outcomes that have an effect on the entire galaxy. So much of Anakin/Vader's power when it comes to being the Chosen One is based on being the one who is put in the place to make the decision that effects the galaxy. The prophecy, based in a potential future, sees Anakin as a major decision maker in the fate of the galaxy. Him putting himself into that position to make that decision can be seen as causing him to be the Chosen One retroactively.
If this is the case, then he didn't need to be there at all. If he goes to the Senate because of the pressure of being the Chosen One, then he is the Chosen One. But if he doesn't, then he isn't. But to Anakin, to not be the Chosen One means to not have the means of power that is yearns for. So he goes to the Senate because he knows he can influence the fight and change the fate of the galaxy.
It's his decision, but it didn't have to be. He could have let it be.
I had so many ramblings when writing this, going between the heavy influence that the story being a backstory brings to the decisions and choices a character is allowed to make and looking at the story from that perspective in addition to it as standalone with a changeable outcome, but I'm not going into that because it seemed to stray from my point. It was very interesting to dive into, and it definitely influenced my thoughts above.