Links only seem to work well from a laptop or desktop versus phone. Also, if the link seems to link you back to the Master List, scroll to the bottom for the actual post.
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Being what was considered "High Fae" in their world did not protect him. It did not mean Lucien was free from harm, his brothers / father tried to kill him.
Just because Beron could not prove Helion sired Lucien (though he suspected) it did not mean Lucien purposely hid his Day Court heritage to stay safe (since he wasn't safe in Autumn).
Lucien did not have it easier because of the way he looked or because of the type of Fae that he was.
I wasn't going to do this because the last time I tried to apologize when I was being attacked over the Arranged Marriage / Forced Marriage debacle I was harassed even further, I was told "I didn't really mean it and was only backtracking" but since some don't want to let this go I'm going to put it out there anyway and if anyone tries to bully me further they will be immediately blocked. Thinking you're a better person for bullying an actual person because you have decided they are "racist" based on their discussion of make believe characters who are not a proven race one way or another (as the Illyrians in real life are considered modern day Albanians and Albanians are not considered POC) doesn't actually make you a better person.
I do apologize for the use of the word "culture". I only meant to say that Lucien is set up in that Regency Era way and the symphony seemed to be in line with the lifestyle of how those in that era were expected to socialize. That he would not mind that scene and the socialization. That doesn't mean he is better for it, I only meant that he himself chooses to live a bit of a lavish lifestyle (fine clothing, appreciation for Rhys's expensive decor, the desire not to be a warrior though he will if it's absolutely required of him, his preference for words over swords). I never meant to imply that Lucien, who is also a POC (and to use the word white-passing as some did when harassing me is equally as harmful a statement to those who are mixed as they experience their own struggles) is not barbaric while all Illyrians are.
I understand that some read these books and they do feel connected or triggered because of their own experiences in life but that's not how I read these books and I'm not sure it's fair to judge someone for that. I have just experienced a difficult month and a half, not only for myself and an injury that's required weeks of physical therapy and now a new issue where I'll be getting an MRA and ultrasound tomorrow but for someone who my husband is close to who suddenly went into the hospital and ended up on a transplant list. These books are an escape for me, a place I don't want to have to think about the real world. Books have been an escape for me since I was young and dealing with some pretty heavy stuff in my home life as a child. Had anyone messaged me and said, "hey - could you explain what you meant because that wording upset me" I could have learned from that. Instead I was ATTACKED. Attacked when I have a POC sister. Attacked when the first boyfriend that I had (and dated for two years) is a POC. Attacked when I voted for Obama. Attacked when I'm listening to Becoming by Michele Obama and just finished The Immortal Life of Henrietta Lacks. Attacked when I hate Trump and MAGA. Attacked when I'm teaching my children how everyone is equal and to be an ally to the LGBQT community and how to respect the children in their school who feel they're Therion. I'm not trying to pull the token "well I have a black /, brown friend so I'm not racist" card here, I'm just trying to give examples of how I do live my life. Very few of you know me and very few of you have any interest in knowing me which is absolutely fine, we're all just keyboard warriors talking about books but who is anyone to make a judgement about who I am as a person because I thought I was just talking about the archetypes the author has set up in this series. These characters are not real, they are not actually dimensional. Books and movies / tv shows tend to simplify / categorize characters to fill the need for specific roles. To discuss that within the context of the series does not make me racist.
I never meant to say Azriel could not appreciate classical music, I imagine he enjoys many types of music. I meant to say that he, based on how Sarah wrote him, would most likely not enjoy the social aspect of the symphony, being part of the "be and be seen ton". It had NOTHING to do with his being Illyrian and only to do with the words on the page that the author gave us.
Along with the knowledge that Az prefers being alone to overly social events, this is what she wrote about him:
Two hours later, they were walking again. Maybe Azriel had been interested enough in the music that he’d let them linger. Bryce had played them a sample of every genre she could think of. Nesta had clapped her hands over her ears at the screaming, wailing death metal, but Azriel had chuckled.
He’d probably get along with Ruhn and his idiot friends.
Nesta had loved the classical stuff the best, and both of them had been intrigued by the pulsing, thumping club music. “That is what you dance to in your world?” Nesta asked. Bryce hadn’t been able to tell if she was intrigued or dismayed. Azriel, at least, had seemed on board.
The battery was inching toward the red zone. It would be dead soon. But for this… she could spare it. “What do you want to hear?” Bryce asked, opening her music library.
Nesta and Azriel swapped glances, and the male answered a bit sheepishly, “The music you play at your pleasure halls.”
Bryce laughed. “Are you a club rat, Azriel?”
Again, I am sorry for anyone who was offended by my choice of words but if someone truly wants to make a difference in the world than it's important to educate someone who is "white" rather than bullying them for being ignorant at times. Because that's the truth. I am white and while I try my best to live my real life in a way that is respectful to everyone that doesn't mean I always am aware of when I make a mistake. I do check with my sister to see if she feels things I've said are offensive but I realize her experience is not that of everyone else's. However I do think it's also important to remember that not everyone who is reading fictional fantasy novels is applying it to real world values. Personally I think if that's what we're doing then we should have way more issues with the ACOTAR series than what many do but it's ok if we're here for the just entertainment aspect. What will always matter most in life is how you treat real people, how you talk about real people, and how you want to help real people become better people.
I was debating whether to directly engage in this conversation, but you mentioned my post about the situation in this statement so I figured it might be worth it so we can both see eye to eye.
I understand that you were trying to say that Lucien fits the regency aesthetic that can come to mind when thinking of a symphony. In fact, I probably would have reblogged your post if you had just talked about imagining Elain and Lucien waltzing or visiting an orchestra. The issue at hand is that you brought another character into the discussion, who is darker skinned and from a different class, to bring down and explicitly say he is less cultured than Lucien.
To get into the statement I made about whitepassing.
[...]to use the word white-passing as some did when harassing me is equally as harmful a statement to those who are mixed as they experience their own struggles.
Lucien is white-passing. It doesn’t mean he isn’t still POC or that those who are white passing don’t experience struggles with how they’re perceived by others. However, the fact of the matter is that when someone glances at Lucien, they don’t immediately realize that he is mixed race. He has passed as Beron and LOA’s son for centuries. He is still a POC man, with darker skin than Eris, and some of Helion’s Persian features (such as his nose), but he is a white-passing POC. These things can and do exist in both the books and in real life.
And this leads into a discussion about colourism. “Coloursim is discrimination based on the shade of someone’s skin, usually favouring lighter skinned individuals over darker skinned individuals.” An example of this is saying that a lighter skinned individual comes across as more sophisticated and refined than a darker skinned individual. The applies to your post, especially when we take a look at what cultured means:
“The word cultured generally describes someone who is well-educated, refined, and deeply knowledgeable in the arts, literature, or social etiquette.”
The immediate assumption that Lucien is more well - educated, refined, and knowledgeable about the arts, literature, and social etiquette (without any factual knowledge about his education) than Azriel, who was taught by Rhysand’s mum, has shown interest in things such as astrology and music, and can flawlessly waltz- is colourist. Your statement was factually incorrect, yet you said it and then doubled down on it, simply because of your own perception of Azriel at face value.
You voting for Obama or listening to Michelle Obama, or having your first boyfriend be POC or being anti-MAGA does not mean you can’t say racist or colourist things. Unconscious bias is a real thing that many people in the world (including me) are still trying to tackle and undo.
And this unconscious bias is shown with the instant correlation you made of Lucien - the lighter skinned character who has never expressed what genre of music he is into (if any at all), being more suited for the cultured and sophisticated sound of a symphony, than Azriel - a darker skinned character who is tied to singing and music and waltzing. All because what? He was curious about pleasure hall/club music (which Nesta shows curiosity for too)? I know people who teach classical music for a living and blast 90’s hip hop and underground rap in the gym.
Anyway, I’m not sure if you’re going to read all of this and quite frankly, don’t blame you if you don’t. But I do hope this provides some clarity as to why your statement as well as double down after, caused people to get so upset and why I made the statement I did, regarding white passing individuals and colourism.
I actually addressed that the way I live my life doesn't mean I'm exempt from unintentionally saying racist things (because how can I possibly know everything that might be considered offensive as a white person who doesn't experience life in the same way others do? I will forever be catching up to what others have experienced from birth) and again my sister is a POC and I do talk to her about these things to confirm whether I was out of line (she as a POC does not agree with what some are attacking me of) but my point is that does not make me racist which many were quick to accuse me of all in the name of a fictional character who hates an entire group of people and in canon has lusted after only white women. I think it's valid to claim there is a bigger discussion to be had about Sarah's writing in general as it relates to classism and racism but if some are so willing to applaud the ACOTAR series - to spend years discussing it and praising it and celebrating it yet tear apart a single person who is simply reading and talking about the series because they themselves read it for an escape, someone who chose a single word that was poorly chosen then it seems hypocritical considering cultured was a word that Sarah used to describe Rhysand.
Sarah is extremely vague with the color of her characters. Both Lucien and Azriel are described as having golden brown skin therefore there is nothing in canon to actually suggest that Lucien is "lighter" than Azriel. All we know is that he's not so dark as Helion to prove anything but golden brown as a descriptor seems a lot like golden brown as a descriptor being used for Azriel. In my mind Lucien is a POC therefore anyone accusing me of thinking Lucien is more white passing than Azriel (who again, we don't know his actual race as it relates to the real world and Sarah never confirmed) are just that - accusations.
And again, I understand why some felt my post was inappropriate, it has been pointed out to me and that is exactly why I apologized for having made it the way I did.
My statement about the kind of music I think Azriel prefers was based on canon text within the bonus of HOFAS, where Nesta was stated to like the classical music best and Azriel asked Bryce to play music that they played in their pleasure halls, with Bryce asking if he was a club rat.
I never said Azriel couldn't enjoy the symphony because he's uncultured and unintelligent. I don't think intelligence has anything to do with ones enjoyment of a specific type of music or that Azriel cannot fit into whatever scene he finds himself in. All I meant was that Lucien seems to gravitate towards the lifestyle that we read about in historical books, those set in the Regency Era and to me the symphony was a social event of that time, not because he's "white-passing" but because we as a fandom have collectively mentioned that he and Elain fit into that Pride and Predjudice era. To me Azriel would have no interest in it only because he'd prefer not to engage with the social aspect and formality or it all if he could avoid it. Not for any reason other than what Sarah wrote his character like, what he personally seems to prefer. Sarah has not written him to care about clothing or his appearance, she has not written him to have an interest in an overly lavish lifestyle and jeweled daggers. None of that makes Lucien better, I'm just simply using what the author has given me to make an opinion but for me race was not in my mind when I made the comment I did. And that probably is white privilege and I apologize for that. If that was triggering for some because they have lived their life where racial issues are a constant battle and if that period of time in history is triggering than I do apologize as it was not my intent but to act like I am racist because I'm talking about a make believe world that I'm only reading for escapism - to BULLY me as a result? I'm sorry but I don't think I'm the only one who should be acknowledging my short-comings. Where is the accountability for the bullying of a real person all in the name of a fake person who the author has not even confirmed to be likened to any real world race?
And I do understand your point that I did not need to bring Az into the conversation but it's not all that different from all the times Gwynriels bring Elain into their conversation. It is unfair to claim that somebody can't do the same with Lucien and Az because of the color of their skin when they have the same color skin and at the end of the day these are all fake characters of a species that doesn't exist. The fandom has operated in this way since the moment I've become a part of it, where varying ships pit two characters against one another. It's valid to say it's not the best practice but it's unfair to bully only one person for doing what the majority of people in this fandom do.
I never said you were racist or colourist. I said the media you consume and the people you are around, doesn't mean you can't say (or in this case type) things that are of that nature. Even in my initial post I never called you racist, but rather what you said was colourist, classist, and incredibly icky.
I am one of the first to say that SJM needs her editors to double check her work. Making Nehemia the "disposable black character" to further the arch of a white character, the undertones to her writing the vast majority of the Illyrian's, how all of her couples (including Elucien and Gwynriel) have a white woman with a POC man, etc. My point in my post is that Azriel, the character you used to describe as less cultured, does not fit that label you are unconsciously perceiving him as.
He was educated by the ruler of the Night Court, raised alongside the current High Lord of the Night Court, is facisnated by astrology, is connected to music, and can waltz so well that he keeps up with Nesta flawlessly.
"Both Lucien and Azriel are described as having golden brown skin therefore there is nothing in canon to actually suggest that Lucien is "lighter" than Azriel."
But there is. Lucien is bi-racial and can canonically pass as a full white child. Azriel was born from two Illyrian parents who both had brown skin. Again, it does not mean Lucien is white. However, when you see art of Azriel and Lucien, when someone commissions art of Azriel and Lucien, when someone draws art of Azriel and Lucien, Azriel is darker. It doesn't make him more POC than Lucien or anything like that (the same way how someone being a light skinned vs a black dark doesn't make one more of that race), but it is something to keep in mind when having these conversations and throwing out statements of one character being "more cultured" than the other.
"In my mind Lucien is a POC therefore anyone accusing me of thinking Lucien is more white passing than Azriel (who again, we don't know his actual race as it relates to the real world and Sarah never confirmed) are just that - accusations."
POC is not just some blanket word that applies to everyone who is darker than tan. There is intersectionality and different pockets in POC groups, primarily because of colonization and the idea that fairer skin, hair, and eyes is more appealing. Which again, circles back to colourism.
It's why there was discussion of how the same light-skinned actors are cast for all the black roles, and darker skinned actors are bypassed. It's why South Asian media has a huge issue with only casting incredibly light skinned actors and anything darker is consider unattractive. It's why Korean media has a big problem with editing and washing out the skin of idols to make them look paler.
We can go back and forth forever on how we see the Illyrians. I don't think we're going to see eye to eye on it and frankly I'm not going to waste either of our times trying to dip into that debate.
I understand Lucien and Azriel are not real characters. In fact, I would agree that Lucien would fit the "historical romance vibes" more. And again, if your post had just been talking about how the "Four movements" made you think of Elain and Lucien enjoying a symphony or dancing the waltz, I probably would have reblogged your post! Because Lucien is described as being born to be a Lord. Because Elain is described to have loved dancing with all the Lord's sons at balls.
But you didn't list those reasons. You decided to call Azriel (who is perceived as darker than Lucien by both the characters in the book and the fandom) uncultured. And while THEY may not be real, that gross dismissiveness regarding Azriel's manners, politeness, knowledge of the arts, etc. in favour of Lucien who we know nothing about in that specific regard, is the exact same labeling many real people face because they are darker than a fairer skinned counterpart.
Your entire point of reading this series as escapism falls flat when people who saw your post, who experience hardships and use books as an escape too, came online and saw a statement like yours that reflects the real life hardships they face.
I'm not here to argue canon or even to explain the framework of intersectionality and how it creates other pockets and facets of discrimination, this isn't the time or place for that. However, I do hope going forward, you put more thought into not just what you post online but also pausing and reflecting before making posts to double down on those statements.
If you're going to "teach a lesson" to someone publicly rather through a private message after they already apologized I hope you'll consider doing the same for your mutuals who bully others - actual people compared to ink on a page.
Dying on one hill to point out my flaws while standing silently by about the behavior of others is problematic in of itself. Especially when once again you are twisting the meaning of what I actually meant. You continue making accusations against me even though I have explained myself and my intent.
And when others who are mixed have spoken out against the phrase white passing yet you yourself refused to admit to any wrong doing when using that term, what does that say about you?
White passing is a term that exists because people are viewing them through the lens of having lighter skin or "white features". It reinforces the idea that only white people can look a certain way. It also leads to some feeling like they're alienated from specific groups and accuses some of trying to pretend to be one thing to gain advantages.
Hi. I can't accept your apology on behalf of all POC but I appreciate that it seems you took the time to reflect on what you said. People are human and we've all said things that sound worse than we meant then to. I don't necessarily agree that it's our responsibility to educate white people but I know I usually try to. And The fact that your mistake was immediately jumped upon and used to fuel ship wars rather than an earnest discussion on how race is handled in this fandom was disappointing.
All you can do is learn from your mistake and do better in the future.
Hi there and thank you anon.
I agree, I don't think it's necessarily your job to educate, I simply meant that if someone unknowingly says something hurtful it's a better approach to have a conversation with them rather than instantly accusing them of being racist. Not that you have to have that discussion with them at all, like you said it's not your responsibility, but I don't think it's the right path for some to turn around and bully that person.
I don't know what I don't know and it's only when I realize that I didn't approach something correctly that I can begin to learn from that experience. It doesn't mean my intent was to cause harm to anyone or that I think anyone in this world is less than anyone else but because I'm white, I will always have to learn. I cannot personally understand the lived experience of a person of color even with having watched my little sister grow up as one and hearing / seeing some of what she's gone through. That doesn't mean I don't want to learn though and that's where I have a problem with being called racist.
I wasn't going to do this because the last time I tried to apologize when I was being attacked over the Arranged Marriage / Forced Marriage debacle I was harassed even further, I was told "I didn't really mean it and was only backtracking" but since some don't want to let this go I'm going to put it out there anyway and if anyone tries to bully me further they will be immediately blocked. Thinking you're a better person for bullying an actual person because you have decided they are "racist" based on their discussion of make believe characters who are not a proven race one way or another (as the Illyrians in real life are considered modern day Albanians and Albanians are not considered POC) doesn't actually make you a better person.
I do apologize for the use of the word "culture". I only meant to say that Lucien is set up in that Regency Era way and the symphony seemed to be in line with the lifestyle of how those in that era were expected to socialize. That he would not mind that scene and the socialization. That doesn't mean he is better for it, I only meant that he himself chooses to live a bit of a lavish lifestyle (fine clothing, appreciation for Rhys's expensive decor, the desire not to be a warrior though he will if it's absolutely required of him, his preference for words over swords). I never meant to imply that Lucien (who is also a POC and to use the word white-passing as some did when harassing me is equally as harmful a statement to those who are mixed as they experience their own struggles) is not barbaric while all Illyrians are, I never said anything about the Illyrians as a race.
I understand that some read these books and they do feel connected or triggered because of their own experiences in life but that's not how I read these books and I'm not sure it's fair to judge someone for that. I have just experienced a difficult month and a half, not only for myself and an injury that's required weeks of physical therapy and now a new issue where I'll be getting an MRA and ultrasound tomorrow but for someone who my husband is close to who suddenly went into the hospital and ended up on a transplant list. These books are an escape for me, a place I don't want to have to think about the real world. Books have been an escape for me since I was young and dealing with some pretty heavy stuff in my home life as a child. Had anyone messaged me and said, "hey - could you explain what you meant because that wording upset me" I could have learned from that. Instead I was ATTACKED. Attacked when I have a POC sister. Attacked when the first boyfriend that I had (and dated for two years) is a POC. Attacked when I voted for Obama. Attacked when I'm listening to Becoming by Michelle Obama and just finished The Immortal Life of Henrietta Lacks. Attacked when I hate Trump and MAGA. Attacked when I'm teaching my children how everyone is equal and to be an ally to the LGBQT community and how to respect the children in their school who feel they're Therion. I'm not trying to pull the token "well I have a black /, brown friend so I'm not racist" card here, I'm just trying to give examples of how I do live my life. Very few of you know me and very few of you have any interest in knowing me which is absolutely fine, we're all just keyboard warriors talking about books but who is anyone to make a judgement about who I am as a person because I thought I was just talking about the archetypes the author has set up in this series. These characters are not real, they are not actually dimensional. Books and movies / tv shows tend to simplify / categorize characters to fill the need for specific roles. To discuss that within the context of the series does not make me racist.
I never meant to say Azriel could not appreciate classical music "because he's an Illyrian brute", I imagine he enjoys many types of music. I meant to say that he, based on how Sarah wrote him, would most likely not enjoy the social aspect of the symphony, being part of the "be and be seen ton". It had NOTHING to do with his being Illyrian and only to do with the words on the page that the author gave us.
Along with the knowledge that Az prefers being alone to overly social events, this is what she wrote about him:
Two hours later, they were walking again. Maybe Azriel had been interested enough in the music that he’d let them linger. Bryce had played them a sample of every genre she could think of. Nesta had clapped her hands over her ears at the screaming, wailing death metal, but Azriel had chuckled.
He’d probably get along with Ruhn and his idiot friends.
Nesta had loved the classical stuff the best, and both of them had been intrigued by the pulsing, thumping club music. “That is what you dance to in your world?” Nesta asked. Bryce hadn’t been able to tell if she was intrigued or dismayed. Azriel, at least, had seemed on board.
The battery was inching toward the red zone. It would be dead soon. But for this… she could spare it. “What do you want to hear?” Bryce asked, opening her music library.
Nesta and Azriel swapped glances, and the male answered a bit sheepishly, “The music you play at your pleasure halls.”
Bryce laughed. “Are you a club rat, Azriel?”
My post was based on what the author wrote, the way she relayed information to us about these characters. Again, I am sorry for anyone who was offended by my choice of words but if someone truly wants to make a difference in the world than it changes more lives to educate someone who is not a poc rather than bullying them for being ignorant at times. Because that's the truth, I am white and while I try my best to live my real life in a way that is respectful to everyone that doesn't mean I always am aware of when I make a mistake. It's difficult to know what some feel are loaded words when you think you're just talking about an imaginary world and your own life did not have the same struggles that those who are poc grew up dealing with as it relates to racial issues. I do check with my sister to see if she feels things I've said in this fandom are offensive and she's never said they were though I realize her experience is not that of everyone else's. However I do think it's also important to remember that not everyone who is reading fictional fantasy novels is applying it to real world values. Personally I think if that's what we're doing then we should have way more issues with the ACOTAR series than what many do but it's ok if we're here for the just entertainment aspect. What will always matter most in life is how you treat real people, how you talk about real people, and how you want to help real people become better people.
The throne of the leader of Spring is made from carved roses:
I clutched the arms of my chair, a small seat of oak beside his giant throne of carved roses.
In the last book Sarah wrote Elain's father as having carved a wooden rose for her:
She plucked another figurine from the mantel: a rose carved from a dark sort of wood. She held it in her palm, its solid weight surprising, and traced a finger over one of the petals. “He made this one for Elain. Since it was winter and she missed the flowers.”
Nesta takes the carving home with her and wonders why she chose to place it next to a figure of a goddess:
Her gaze shifted to the carved wooden rose she’d placed upon the mantel, half-hidden in the shadows beside a figurine of a supple-bodied female, her upraised arms clasping a full moon between them. Some sort of primal goddess—perhaps even the Mother herself. Nesta hadn’t let herself dwell on why she’d felt the need to set the rose there. Why she hadn’t just thrown it in a drawer.
The final page of ACOSF shows Nesta placing Elain's wood rose carving on their father's gravestone - releasing this symbol of Elain out into the world - as a permanent marker of the beauty and good he brought into the world:
Nesta held love in her own heart as she pulled the small, carved rose from her pocket and set it upon the gravestone. A permanent marker of the beauty and good he’d tried to bring into the world.
Shoutout to @elucienfanboy for "mist and shadows" quote from ACOWAR and ACOTAR6 book cover semblance.
"Mor leaned forward. “Do you know why the other queens cursed her—sold her to him?”
Elain studied the table. “No. No—that is all mist and shadow.” - when Elain uses her powers, something she can't place manifests as mist and shadow.
ACOTAR6 book cover being what seems to be mist and shadow.
"It was a small, flat rose fashioned of stained glass, designed so that when held to the light, the true depth of the colors would become visible." - description of the necklace Azriel bought for Elain. Whatever fans say, he thought about Elain while buying it. This part is about her.
ACOTAR7 cover being all sorts of colors. As if whatever was hidden - was now held to the light, true depth of colors now visible.
Thirty feet from shore, standing atop the surface, floated a shadow. It shifted and warped, its edges fluttering, but it had the vague shape of a tall male.
The being that stood atop the lake was a shadow. It must be a reflection, Cassian thought. Smoke and mirrors.
Koschei said, “Tell my Vassa I’m waiting.” His shadows swirled.
she was flying toward it—toward a massive, mist-veiled mountain, the land barren save for moss and stones and a gray, stormy sea around it. The mountain itself held two peaks at its very top, and the stones jutting from its sides were carved in strange, ancient symbols, as old as the song itself.
she stood in a cavern, almost the twin to the one the priestesses sang in, as if they were linked in song and dreaming. But rather than red stone, it was carved of black rock. Symbols had been etched into the smooth floor, into the curving walls, rising toward a ceiling so high it faded into gloom. Spells and wards pulsed around the room,
Elain shifted her face toward him. Another blink. “They sold her—to … to some darkness, to some … sorcerer-lord …” She shook her head. “I can never see him. What he is. There is an onyx box that he possesses, more vital than anything … save for them. The girls. He keeps other girls—others so like her—but she … By day, she is one form, by night, human again.”
Koschei is cloaked in shadow and his soul is hidden in an onyx box. The prison is on the barren land of a mist-veiled mountain with a room containing black rock and is full of spells and wards.
I do think the prison land will eventually become Valkyrie territory but I also think it's possible for Elain and Lucien to visit there the same way Feyre and Rhys did, the same way Nesta and Cassian did especially if it's the location of Koschei's soul (my money is in there or the human queens castle though that might be less likely if his soul was hidden long before the castle was built).
I don't know if the book mock-up covers mean anything but if they do then I think there is the potential for them to represent the shift from the Night Court to elsewhere in Prythian (Spring / Day - since the third book seems to be trending towards orange / yellow). It could also represent the shift of Elain coming into her power, where her power and everything she's meant to be is held back within the Night Court but that mist will eventually clear and she'll step out of the shadows to "become". Where "light" is what will defeat the darkness that is Koschei.
The land around the prison is dead and barren, no longer a place that can sustain Pegasus and who better to help restore that than the character who said "after this I think the world needs more gardens." Who better to work through the spells and wards within the prison than Helion Spell-Cleavers son? Who better to possibly understand the ancient symbols carved into the stone than a character who has an eye made of it's own etchings and carvings? Who better to finally see through the mist and shadow to discover why Vassa and the girls were kidnapped than a Seer whose powers do seem to grow stronger around her mate, the Heir to Day?
As for the necklace itself, though Az thought of Elain while buying it I don't think he himself realized the possible metaphor for Elain's character but I do think the author chose the description she did for the necklace because she was leaving us a clue / breadcrumb for Elain's character. Just like the necklace looked like a flat piece of glass at first - an easily dismissed charm until held the light when you finally realize it's true depth, I think she is telling us that Elain will finally shine when she's also "given light". I think she will become everything she's meant to be and others will stop seeing her as "uninteresting, boring, only interested in her gardens and pretty dresses, and "Elain is Elain" at that point. Elain, just like the necklace, has an inner depth that the others have failed to see.
Book 1 might begin in the Night Court but I also think Sarah will use it to set the stage for Koschei's spreading his darkness across their world and for the characters to realize the time to act in order to stop him is now.
I’m struggling w this book a little- but I only think it’s because I have so many questions and I want answers 😬😂
Also- feyre is gonna be in troubleeeeee 😳bc she isn’t going back from rhys’s!!! (or at least right now) 😳
I'm a little shocked…it’s like she had a total personality change. Like she’s not even the same person anymore. Which I guess technically she isn’t, but you know what I mean 😂
Rhys is my fave character so far now!!!
I knew ianthe was a bad seed!!!
Am I the only one who kind of wants feyre to end up w Rhys now? 🤔🤨
I definitely didn’t think it in book one, but I’m starting to question things in book 2, especially after she writes a letter saying she’s not coming back 😳
Stupid book 2!!!…I was so happy w feyre and tamlin in book 1!!!…sarah screwed it all up 😂
I also love mor
I do hope that we get to see more of Lucien though…I like his character
I asked her if she thought he should have done more for Feyre and she said:
Nope- i can’t be mad at him…I feel like he is at a rock and a hard place as of now
I give people I like passes 😂
I also don’t think I realized how bitter she was toward her father
I kind of want Nesta to end up with Cassian since they hate each other so much 😂And mor w Azriel. And Elain shouldn't marry that guy.
Amren scares the heck out of me w whatever she is 😳
Bahaha!!!...the amulet was fake- I didn't see that coming
I’m curious why az doesn’t fully trust amren!!! Look at me using nicknames like I know them all 😂
I could honestly see her leaving tamlin for Rhys...I could also be way off on that...but I wouldn't be shocked if it happened
Rhys makes her want to paint again, and THAT says something.
*I've got to give her credit, she's been pretty spot-on with her predictions and this is someone who didn't even understand the term shipper when she asked "Am I the only one who kind of wants feyre to end up w Rhys now?" and I explained that there were other Rhys and Feyre shippers when they too first read this book.
Weird Elain thought: we've seen how badly the Cauldron affected Nesta, and a lot of people sort of diminish Elain's pain as well. Do you think getting her POV/her memory of the events might help the naysayers realize that she's suffered, too? also is it ACO6 release day yet???
Definitely!!!
It's is typical for some to brush off the suffering of someone who isn't loud about their emotions because if someone looks happy on the outside then of course we default to thinking that must match what's going on internally (though hopefully the more we experience in life the more we remember that regardless of how someone is carrying themselves they still might be dealing with a lot that we're not seeing) but when we finally get that one on one time with a character? Where we're inside her thoughts and privy to her emotions? I don't think there will be a way for anyone to discount her struggles anymore.
The issue many seem to have with Elain is that she comes across as content and unbothered whereas most of the other characters who are struggling are moody, emotional and volatile at times. Anger is a pretty big neon sign letting people know something is wrong but Elain? She's baking, she's working in the garden, she's talking about pretty clothing and the fine jewelry that Nesta wore to the ball when they were younger, she's smiling at Rhys, at Feyre, at Cassian, trying to coax Nesta into a place of "well aren't we all fine and dandy now!?" so it does look like she doesn't understand suffering BUT that is almost certainly a misdirection. Not only do I think this because there has never been a SJM fmc who is getting a book that doesn't have some heavy baggage to overcome but I think this because it's often how I am in my own life and the way many others are too. Choosing to push the bad things down unless you're behind closed doors is such a normal trauma response. Unfortunately it's the kind of trauma response where people start making statements like "well you couldn't possibly understand and it must not be that bad otherwise you'd be openly struggling the same way I am" which is very untrue and actually quite damaging.
So while I think it's normal for people to forget how bad someone might be suffering because of how they look / act on the outside I think Elain's story will be important because it will bring to light the very intense and complex emotions someone can be feeling but does not put on display for everyone to see.
And seriously! lol. I don't know how long I've been saying, "At this point I just wish we'd know regardless of the outcome." I can deal with whatever happens, I'm just tired of wondering what will happen.
But to do this character justice she needs to feel a little embarrassed about how hard she crashed out over Graysen.
Babe you tried running away from a war camp because he (cough the Cauldron cough) gave you a glimmer of a second chance. It was equivalent to ditching girls night because a fuck boy texts you wyd? at 2am.
That was after he bitterly rejected you in front of your sisters and their friends. Public humiliation.
I need her to sit down at a negotiation table with him and cringe as he bites into a crusty piece of bread and scatters crumbs everywhere. He needs to sit there with a smear on his face that he won’t wipe all meeting. She needs to fight the urge to grab his shoulder and push him up so he’s not slouching in his chair. She’ll stare at him in disgust as he says something childish and uncouth.
This was the guy she spent years mourning?
Then she looks over to perfectly groomed and proper Lucien who would never let food drop on his tunic. Not a single hair out of place. Every answer from him is easy. Unbothered. Controlled. Mature and put together.
It’ll hit her then that she was an idiot and overlooked a lot to get the life she thought she needed.
Meanwhile she ignored the right male for her all along.
This is why I'm hoping Az was a stepping stone for her character.
Elain was so desperate for love with Graysen that even when he walked all over her she still went running when she thought the Cauldron was him calling to her. She spent months mourning him even after that. Flash forward a year and we have Az reject her. Regardless of his reasons, it was a real rejection to her. Yet she did not mourn, she did not beg, she did not make a scene. She quietly returned his gift then kept on living her life.
I hope when it is time for her story we see her reflect on how she's done with relationships that lack loyalty, that lack communication. How she can admit that she was so driven by the idea that she needed to marry because of her upbringing that she sacrificed her own dignity.
That is the kind of character growth that paves the way for her to see the person who is right for her.
I'm sorry, maybe it's because I'm new to the fandom and people active on Tumblr have changed, but everytime I go into to gwynriel tag, I only ever see posts about them, if people talk about Elain or Lucien is only in positive. Unfortunately I can't say the same for the elucien tag.
Also, when I say that fans should have an unified front, I meant especially against the haters. We already have to deal with that harassment from a specific group of people, why bring ourselves negativity into our safe spaces? I'm just talking as a fan of BOTH the ships
I've been in the fandom since 2021 and I can tell you that the experience you are having as a new fandom person is not the experience I or others have had.
There are absolutely Elain haters on the Gwynriel side.
Absolutely not hate to you but lately your posts about the new books seem more anti gwynriel then anything else 😅 and I understand it, clearly you don't care for the ship and are interested primarily about elain and lucien. But, as a person who loves both ship and have to deal with e/lriels' bullshit almost every day now, I think elucien and gwynriel fans should hold an unified front. At least until we know more about book 6
This is the BS that Elucien's have had to deal with for years and why some on this side get annoyed and post the things we do.
"Elucien and Gwynriel fans needs to hold a united front".
Were certain Gwynriels holding a united front when they said Elain was too underdeveloped for a story?
Were certain Gwynriels holding a united front when they said it's clear Sarah is bored with Elain and Lucien and that's why they weren't in SF (despite the logic that they weren't in SF because it was meant to be about Nesta finding who out who she was away from her sisters and Sarah has been setting up Elain to be someone who isn't part of the IC)?
Were certain Gwynriels holding a united front when they said Elain has the personality of a plant?
Were certain Gwynriels holding a united front when they claim the Az bonus chapter only matters as it relates to Az and Gwyn despite the first half being entirely dedicated to his lusting over Elain (for the wrong reasons but still) then hurting Elain then Rhys lecturing Az about how important the mate she's currently ignoring is to everything that is going on in their world at the moment?
Are certain Gwynriels holding a united front now by saying Four Movements couldn't possibly have anything to do with Elain despite the fact music is a theme across all her books and mates?
I'm not anti Gwynriel as it relates to the new books. I am anti seeing takes that only Gwynriel is important as it relates to the new books. Where Gwynriels story absolutely cannot wait because of recent buildup yet Eluciens can easily be put on the backburner despite the buildup they've had since book 2.
"But Az learned whose dagger he has in a different series!" And we learned Lucien's father is Helion in book 3 of THIS series, were reminded of it in ACOFAS, were reminded of it again when Bloomsbury reblogged the Baby Name envy thing and if that doesn't guarantee Lucien is next then why does one mention in a different series guarantee Az's story is next?
I'm anti seeing some call out e/riels for their hypocritical stances while turning around and being hypocritical themselves.
That's the thing about this fandom. There aren't "good sides and bad sides" as it relates to ships. There are good shippers across all three ships but just like Gwynriels and Eluciens call out the problematic e/riel shippers it is valid for Eluciens to call out the problematic Gwynriel shippers just like it's valid for Gwynriels to call out the problematic Elucien shippers. I / we don't have to provide a united front based on ships alone, we provide a united front with those who aren't being hypocrites.
If one side is allowed to scream how E/riel is coming home, if one side is allowed to scream how Gwynriel is coming home, then why in the world is only the Elucien side being told they're not presenting a united front for talking about their ship possibly "coming home"? Why does that make us Anti Gwynriel?
And if you yourself have never sent this sort of anon to the Gwynriel side, asking why they aren't providing a united front? Telling them how it's Anti Elucien to claim Gwynriel will come first? Then this is the kind of thing I'm talking about.
"Lucien isn’t man enough to be a SJM love interest”
Baby, THANK GOD. That’s my whole point. I don’t need another Rhysand copy. Coming from a Feysand girl btw.
I’m saying something insane rn:
I could not care less whether he can fight or what powers he has. The hyper-masculinity propaganda has fully lost me. I need my man goofy. Let him be everything but nonchalant.
Said in all seriousness after we the fandom read about Lucien making it to the Archeron sisters after the war, uninjured but covered in the blood of their enemies.
He's a warrior in his own right.
He apologizes even when he's really not in the wrong.
He dresses like he's been to Paris Fashion Week every year since he was a child.
He's cunning.
He's got a silver tongue.
He compliments his female friends without wanting to get into their pants.
Baby, he is the blue print for how all men should be but some are just to used to toxic men to see it.
I keep seeing the "Elain has nothing to do with music" and the "this is clearly about Gwynriel" posts but I think everyone is guilty of moving the goalpost to fit ships.
Gwynriel has nothing to do with instruments which a symphony and orchestra do:
"Utilizes a massive collection of instruments divided into four distinct families: Strings, Woodwinds, Brass, and Percussion.
I never saw headcanons that she plays an instrument, there's no textual evidence that either she or Az do and Bryce joked with Az about being a club rat but suddenly they're connected to symphonies?
Sarah is greatly inspired by music, she's said it ever since writing TOG. She did an interview in 2016 talking about how Dorian and Rhys would be characters she could go to the opera with as they enjoy the finer things in life. In the same interview she said if there's a character who doesn't like music in her book they're probably evil.
Sarah writing Gwyn and Az as singers doesn't mean Gwyn and Az are the only characters who will from here on out claim everything as it relates to music, not to mention she has yet to use a characters hobby as the section layout for their book. Feyre is a painter but her story wasn't broken down into "Shades". Nesta was a dancer but Sarah didn't break parts of her story down into "Acts".
When Lucien met Elain, his heart was a raging, thunderous beat. On Calanmai the drums called to the fae, in her ACOWAR acknowledgements Sarah thanked the readers for their heartfelt letters, art and lovely music, Aelin wanted to be a healer but ended up as an assassin - she said she loved music because it reminded her of the feeling of wanting to create something instead of destroying it, the musical score for Cinderella inspired Sarah to write TOG, and CC came to her while on an airplane listening to the instrumental track Shenzhou. Feyre had nothing to do with music but it was the music that Rhys sent her that helped her from completely falling apart UTM and the Book of Breathings told her to "sing to it". Tamlin's happiness was found in playing a fiddle. Her mating bonds are the music between souls. Musical elements are an underlying theme spread across her entire body of work and Elain and Lucien will be no different regardless of their particular hobbies (we already know she loves balls and parties and enjoys waltzing and the gavotte which are done to classical music and if she randomly sprung on us that Az sings in a bonus chapter that not everyone has access to then who is to say whether she'll reveal Lucien as having his own talent in his book). Musical references will not stop with Gwyn and Az's story.
Saying the next story can only be Gwynriels because of her use of "Four Movements" is to say Elain and Lucien will be irrelevant in the behemoth of a book she's releasing, that books 6, 7, and 8 (which are all included in the Four Movements) will be Gwynriels story alone. I might be biased but I don't think you can have another ACOTAR book(s) without them considering her visions are why they knew about Vassa and Koschei in the first place, considering she is the likely key to Springs restoration, considering Lucien's secret father is the only one with the Pegasus, considering he is Vassa's friend and she's about to be called back to Koschei after being temporarily given freedom because of a bargain Elain's father made, considering only he gives the reports on Spring to Rhys and Feyre in private and the NC just said they need the Spring Courts army, considering their bond has been the drama on all the characters minds, considering his father is the one looking to ally with Koschei. And if someone thinks this is a muti POV then that is conceding that Four Movements wouldn't just about Gwyn and Az.
To me the use of Four Movements has more to do with the tone of the book as a whole than it does a particular pairing, the way each part will feel to the overall story. First, the fast and dramatic introduction followed by something slower. Then a "dance-like interlude" building to a fast and triumphant finale. That is the format for how many books are written but since standalones are typically in a single volume the reader does not need made aware that the books we're getting our hands on in October and January are only pieces of a whole.
I do think it's a bit hypocritical to claim the next big epic adventure of the ACOTAR series is being revealed to us because of a characters hobby especially when again, symphonies and orchestras are different from singing and every time flowers have been used in marketing we're told it couldn't possibly have anything to do with Elain since ACOTAR has always used roses. How many times do people say Elain has no personality outside of flowers yet flowers in marketing couldn't relate to her? And now we have some of those same people claiming Sarah is revealing Gwynriels book because of her hobby despite Sarah's love of music being a theme in her writing long before Gwyn was introduced?
The LOTR is an epic adventure, one that has nothing to do with music but one that would not have been brought to life the way it was in the movies without the musical score being played by the Philharmonic Orchestra. To me that's what this is all especially if it will all end in the defeat of Koschei.
Saw your post about Helion - Helios - sun connection, and you know what that made me think of? Sun > Summer.
The first thing I thought about when I saw the four movements was Vivaldi’s Four Seasons, each season in a movements, starting with Spring > Summer > Autumn > Winter.
Helion, Lucien’s father, would have a huge affect on the Autumn court plotline if the parentage came out.
Parts 2 and 3 combined into one book, Summer to Autumn in one book.
Then Koschei, as in inspired by Koschei the Deathless, associated with Winter in the original tale.
You have the three of the four season progression from Vivaldi’s Four Seasons.
Probably means nothing, definitely doesn’t mean anything (this isn’t sarcasm, I really don’t think it means anything), but just wanted to let you know that this is what your post made me think of.
I feel like that one Swifite that analyzed the curl pattern of Taylor’s hair during the 2025 Grammy’s for album hints.
You see I think you might be onto something with this theory. I think SJM probably has found a way to not only incorporate the passage of season, but also the 4 moving parts of a symphony as well (which does explain the music notes on her post.) but the concept of time is also played a lot with in the SJM universe. And both music and the season can mark the passage of time so I want to look deeper into the season part of this posts.
In ACOSF the book ended when they were in the Spring, and one event that happens in the Spring that SJM only briefly paid attention to in ACOSF was Starfall.
The same Starfall where Aelin falls through the universes. And the same Starfall where we see Helion, Varian, Vivianne Kallias, and Lucien attend.
Now it could be merely a coincidence that they’re all in the same room together….but it is one of the notable times that Lucien is in close proximity to Helion. Who is standing right between Elain and Varian. Lucien seen standing by Rhys and Feyre, so I do wonder if that night they told them the truth about them being father and son. And that’s where we’ll probably start the story,
Also the revival of the Spring Court is going to be huge part of these upcoming books because Beron wants to take possession is the Spring Court and where is Lucien currently stationed to be the IC’s eyes and ears? The Spring Court.
So I can definitely see us starting the book at this point.
And I do find it interesting that Helion was standing next to Varian, who is from the Sunmer Court. And I was musing the other day how we canonically haven’t celebrated the Summer Solstice in a while. And Tarquin was one of the ones to offer Tamlin aid because they share a border. And Tarquin didn’t want Tamlin’s citizens to suffer. Coincidence? I think not.
And then of course we’ll have a major plotline that involves the Autumn Court. Eris is currently trying to stage a coup against Beron. I have no doubt in my mind that he and Lucien are probably working together to bring Beron down especially if the Spring Court is what he seeks.
We know that Beron knows that Beron is currently working with Koschei. And we also know that he knows that Lucien and Elain are mates. He also no doubt knows about Vassa if he’s working with Koschei and we know at the end of ACOSF, Koschei says that he’s waiting for Vassa. And Lucien has already marked Koschei as a target. And we know that out of everyone who deserves to take Beron down Lucien is at the top of that list.
Also I would like to note that I do not think Vassian is endgame just because he wants to save her. Lucien is a very valiant person in my opinion. And There’s too much evidence to suggest otherwise and I firmly believe that it will be Elucien/ Jassa, but I have multiple posts on the subject so I won’t be using them here.
However, both Helion and Feyre have tried to break Vassa’s curse, without success. So I can see Helion and Lucien work together on this because two fae with spell cleaving abilities work better than one.
and as for Winter, I’m interested to see where Mor fits into this whole ACOTAR 6,7, and 8 plotline. But if we’re doing the Koschei plotline in winter, and Koschei’s lake is on the continent. I think it’s important to note that Mor not only had a close relationship to the Winter Court, but she has also made continuous trips to the continent, because she’s trying to get this new treaty in order. It’s also important to note that when we first start ACOTAR the season we start in in the human lands is winter. And who also does this contract affect? The human lands/ Jurian and Vassa. Graysen, the human queens. Etc. etc. and I can see Mor being essential to this storyline. Because only her and Lucien volunteered to go to the continent to find Vassa in ACOWAR after Elain had consistent visions about Koschei and Vassa and knows what they need to locate in order to defeat Koschei and who has the ability to break spells and find hidden objects (Lucien does)
So not only would ending in Winter be a good callback to the beginning of the series. But it would also make sense with the tale of Koschei the Deathless.
So good catch! I think there’s a lot of cannon based evidence to support this theory,
This is actually pretty clever.
Of course for me this is based off the assumption that Elain and Lucien would play a leading role in the next book and how we know they're connected to multiple places but what if it was Sarah borrowing from the season progression in the Four Seasons but instead applied it to the four major locations where we know things need to happen? @erin-bo-berin was on a similar track yesterday as it related to various characters and their plots being broken down into the individual movements but what if it's less about multi pov and more in line with what's being said above?
We know the story, no matter the female lead, will likely begin in the Night Court. It sets the stage for a characters trauma to be introduced / revisited and for their "mission" to be laid out. (First Movement).
Previously Sarah's characters visited a place or two then returned to their home court shortly thereafter, all taking place within the same part but Elain and Lucien? They've been set up to achieve big things in each place, things that aren't designed to be a quick hour long visit. The Spring Court needs an entire rehaul. It's people have been neglected and the lawlessness is running rampant. The land is dying, the armed forces are not where they need to be and it's leadership has been failing. That's not something that can managed in a quick visit but something the characters would need to dedicate a chunk of time to fixing. (Maybe Second Movement or Third). I imagine the issues with the humans will also be explored here as Vassa and Jurian's manor lies close to Springs border.
Then in Day we know there's an issue with the Pegasus foals, we know Helion and Lucien seem to share in their ability to track / sense things in the same way Elain does so we might see her training her powers in the Day Court, SF alluded to their being other things troubling Helion back in his court and we know Lucien needs to discover his true heritage. Again, these are not things that can be resolved within a weekend visit but it's something that Sarah could explore in depth within one of the four movements. (Second or Third Movement).
Finally we have what's going on in the continent and with the treaty as the Fourth Movement - the finale. The defeat of Koschei / Beron, the signing of the treaty to secure peace across their world.
Maybe it's less about the seasonal courts and more about Sarah dedicating the four parts to the specific places where we know Elain and Lucien have things to resolve / deal with.
