The play is actually required for two trophies to reach Platinum on the game - Critically Acclaimed (for getting S-rank in Loveless), and 7-star Hotel (all collectibles collected for Johnny's Seaside Inn), as there are collectibles for every member of the cast, including the three Rosas. However, as Aerith will receive her collectible no matter which Rosa is chosen (since she sings the theme song), it means that in order to platinum the game, players need only reach Loveless twice on S-rank - once for Tifa!Rosa, and once for Yuffie!Rosa. Let that sink in - playing Aerith as Rosa is not even necessary to earn the Platinum trophy!
Also as a sidenote, Tifa is the Rosa for the romantic-coded date, Aerith is the Rosa for the four friendship-coded dates, while Yuffie is the Rosa for the sibling-coded date.
Party Member Locations in Ch8 & 12
It's a little noteworthy that during the Chapter 8 date, Tifa (if she's not your date partner) can be found in Chocobo Square, while she's found in Skywheel Square in Ch12 during the "Find Dio" quest. Coincidence or deliberate signalling that she's the canon Skywheel choice for the party's resident chocobo-head? ;)
Meanwhile, Aerith is at Speed Square in Ch8, and Battle Square in Ch12, a blatant signal of her role in the battle against space alien mom, perhaps?
Yuffie is in Wonderment Square during both Ch8 & 12 (lmao what a kid), Nanaki is in Battle Square in Ch8 and Chocobo Square in Ch12 (him riding a chocobo will never not be meme worthy I fear XD), Barret is in Event Square in Ch12 (Jessie poster hello), Cid in Speed Square (figures lmao), Vincent in Ghost Square (claiming dibs on the coffin lmfao).
[Rendezvous in Costa del Sol] is the "date" that Cloud treats as a job.
[Builders in a Bind] is the job that Cloud treats as a date.
The juxtaposition and differences in his responses to his sidequest partners could not be more stark. Not to mention the callback to the differences in his attitudes to the Ch8 vs Ch3 of Remake sidequests too.
Junon and Nibelheim Tifa symbolism through Rebirth lore
This tumblr post is actually further expansion from this twitter thread I made on the relationship between Tifa and Junon that I've noticed. Now that Rebirth is out.... hoo boy idk if I'm overthinking this or if the devs are just this big-brained. Spoiler alert for Rebirth, OBVIOUSLY. You have been warned.
Part 1: Phoenix, Deity of Junon Region
So to begin with, I'd like to draw your attention to what actually first attracted my attention to the possibly deliberate symbolism of Junon: the combination of the regional deity (Phoenix) and the regional chocobo (Belle the mountain chocobo).
As is obvious to any Final Fantasy fan by now, Phoenix is the summon of fire and life/rebirth, two themes important to Cloud and Tifa, both of whose childhoods "died" in the Nibelheim fire and massacre five years ago and yet "reborn", or rather survived, from the ashes of their fallen hometown because of their promise and bond with each other. They are each other's proofs they are who they are: Cloud and Tifa from Nibelheim. As a sea-facing town with an underwater reactor (even Under Junon is named "Sea Dragon Square"), wouldn't it have been more thematically appropriate to have Junon worship either the Leviathan (admittedly Leviathan is the guardian deity of Wutai in FF7 lore, but Wutai was pushed to pt3, and it didn't stop Leviathan from being a Chadley-earned summon in Remake either) or Shiva deities (which is the summon you get in OG Junon from Priscilla) instead of Phoenix, unless the switch was a deliberate narrative choice? After all, as I've posted in my original Twitter thread, Junon is the first place Real Cloud truly tries hard to "awaken" SOLDIER Cloud into speaking with Tifa. This is translated in Rebirth into Cloud and Tifa's reconciliation after their falling out at Kalm, and Tifa's relationship wheel being the non-optional, story-mandated dialogue choice in this chapter. The Rebirth-themed summon in the Rebirth-named game being set in the Junon region over all other regions? HMMMMMMMM. (And nobody better forget that Mr Dolphin <-> Tifa's limit break Dolphin Blow parallel either ;) )
Also, OG callback: Phoenix summon was actually obtained from Fort Condor in OG, and guess what huge ass creature immediately appeared the moment the party exited the Junon-side entrance of Mythril Mines? Aye, the Giant Condor. The protorelic sidequest in Junon is also linked to the Fort Condor minigame (a variation of the boardgame from FF7 Remake Intermission) that specifically chose to magick both Cloud and Tifa (as well as Barret) in to do battle. And of course, the "Dreaming of Blue Skies" Tifa-related sidequest in Junon region involves baiting the Giant Condor with bovine meat to take a picture of (and while waiting, they sky-gazed together at the clouds).
(Side Crisis Core tangent: Phoenix's materia is obtained from - guess where - NIBELHEIM WATER TOWER, as the first part of the Seven Wonders of Nibelheim sidequest)
(Side simulation tangent: The Phoenix simulation Chadley makes for the Rebirth team to fight can summon Bombs, which is one of the two bracelet charms Tifa is prominently featured with in the Retrilogy, the other being Chocobo, which usually symbolizes Cloud)
(Side LOVELESS tangent: The summon that Rosa calls to defeat Varvados looks amazingly like the Phoenix summon, and the resultant ending motif - the fiery destruction of Guardia, the mutual protection of Alphreid and Rosa, and the unpromised promise of fidelity and reunion - most resembles the destruction of Nibelheim, the mutual protection between Cloud and Tifa - Cloud as Tifa's physical protector & Tifa [being Cloud's motivation] as Cloud's emotional protector, and the fulfilled yet voluntarily continual fulfillment of the promise at the water tower between them)
Part 2: Odin, Deity of Nibel Region
Now what of the actual place of Cloud and Tifa's births? Well the regional deity is, appropriately, Odin, Norse god of death, while the regional chocobo is Selena Shirena (in JP romaji), the blue ocean chocobo.
Odin in OG is also obtained from Nibelheim (specifically Shinra Mansion), and interestingly, when linked with "Added Effect" materia on an armour piece, can provide immunity to instant death on the wearer, while if the same pair of linked materia is equipped on a weapon, it can cause instant death. This is a most curious and most pertinent symbolism for the birthplace of not only the only two people in the FF7 party to have ever tasted Masamune blade first and survived (rip to the other Nibel villagers though) but also, thematically tragically, the birthplace of Sephiroth, whose destructive powers with said blade are legendary. Not forgetting of course, that central in the stories of Nibelheim is "the other side of the mountain" being a local reference to the mythical/thematic land of the dead (remember which two characters are pictured on the Mt Nibel side of the two Rebirth Nibelheim keyarts?).
Part 3: Junon/Nibel Connection via Regional Chocobo Abilities
From Junon region, we have Belle the grey mountain chocobo (which btw, is a requirement to reach the Phoenix summon crystals that will both weaken the simulation fight and strengthen the summon materia), and a clearer parallel cannot help being drawn to Cloud and Tifa hailing from the village of Nibelheim located at the base of MOUNT NIBEL, where both share memories being on that mountain (once when Tifa was 8 and Cloud 9, and again when Tifa was 15 and Cloud 16 - SEVEN years apart). Similarly, the Nibel region chocobo - required to access the Odin summon crystal - is Shirena the blue ocean chocobo, making both Junon and Nibel chocobo abilities the diametrically opposite elements of their region's most significant landscape/towns - Junon the ocean-facing city with the mountain chocobo, and Nibelheim the mountain-shadowed village with the ocean chocobo.
(Side Costa del Sol tangent: Cloud's blue shirt swimsuit is named "Ocean Chocobo" which makes for it being the Nibel region Chocobo ability seems accidentally on purpose appropriate, as well as being the more "real Cloud" of the two swimsuit options for him imo, while the Wild Surf option seems too... Zack minus the sunflower, so basically the SOLDIER Cloud option)
So, let's now look at the symbolism of Junon and Nibelheim together, as both mirrors and opposites, as parts of a whole.
Junon and Nibelheim
Phoenix and Odin
Life and death
Mountain and ocean
East continent and west continent
Taken together, the bond between Junon and Nibelheim almost looks like the endless cycle of death and life/rebirth, which is very symbolic of how the Lifestream works (those who are born from the Lifestream return to the Lifestream). Just as Phoenix is both life and destruction, just as Odin can be both death and protection, it is the complementary, symbiotic love of Cloud and Tifa, at once opposites yet similar, at once separate but a team, both strong yet each having their own weaknesses that the other balances, that ultimately is most emblematic of the lifecycle of the planet.
It is no wonder then, that Tifa is the one chosen by the planet and the WEAPONs, both in OG when Sapphire Weapon caused the distraction that allowed her to both embody yet subvert her role as the Andromeda of Greek legend by enabling her to save herself from her execution at Junon with the help of friends, and in Rebirth when the Gongaga WEAPON choose to show her the true struggle of the planet that she might reach Final Heaven, and be the heroine who will save and stay by the hero's side till the end.
An Archive of Our Own, a project of the Organization for Transformative Works
Chapters: 1/1
Fandom: Devil May Cry, Biohazard | Resident Evil (Gameverse)
Rating: General Audiences
Warnings: No Archive Warnings Apply
Relationships: Dante/Lady (Devil May Cry), Leon S. Kennedy/Ada Wong
Characters: Dante (Devil May Cry), Lady (Devil May Cry), Leon S. Kennedy, Ada Wong, Nero (Devil May Cry), Original Child Character(s)
Additional Tags: Christmas Fluff, DangerousBride AU, Child Nero (Devil May Cry)
Summary:
Dante and Lady take Nero on a walk and meet some new friends.
Inspired by the wonderful and lovely comic by DangerousBride. But don’t for the love of god ask me why I posted a Christmas fic in August roflmao.
Maybe people would be less shocked at Activision-Blizzard's latest lawsuit if they'd just realize that this is the same company who wrote Jaina Proudmoore, the only person who actually put in 1000% more effort than literally all of the other Warcraft characters combined towards peace (EVEN THRALL DID FUCKALL BECAUSE THE HORDE > PEACE TO HIM), and who became a victim of constant and systemic abuse and character assassination by the Horde because of this, and finally went apeshit on her abusers, and Garrosh, who took the greatest pleasure in dealing disproportionate violence to the Alliance and other Horde races except one(1) stonetalon questline, and then tried to Both Sides TM them.
And you the fanbase tried to "Garrosh did nothing wrong" or even tried to BothSides Sylvanas and Anduin in 8.0. Fuck the hell off. These people thrive off their positions of power and abuse and gaslights their victims into believing they deserve it or are just as bad. And you lot ate it up and tried to make excuses or even justify their storytelling. Don't fucking come and tell me this hasn't been fucking obvious in their writing all along. Fiction is never created or consumed in a vacuum.
Also this is why I despise Christie Golden's writing of Jaina, and how she NeedsTM Kalecgos, the most useless of all fucking characters, to talk her off the ledge and be her Voice of Reason. Fuck you, fuck you, fuck you. Jaina is the only character in WoW who has been consistently wronged and has a right to her anger, yet the narrative made a concerted effort to paint this in a negative light and make her seem unhinged, overemotional and crazy. FUCK YOU ACTIVISION BLIZZARD.
An Archive of Our Own, a project of the Organization for Transformative Works
Chapters: 1/1
Fandom: Biohazard | Resident Evil (Gameverse)
Rating: Teen And Up Audiences
Warnings: Creator Chose Not To Use Archive Warnings
Relationships: Leon S. Kennedy/Ada Wong
Characters: Leon S. Kennedy, Ada Wong, Helena Harper, Sherry Birkin, Jake Muller
Additional Tags: Post-Canon, TW: implied suicidal thoughts
Summary:
“If we cannot be together in this life, then let us meet again in the next… and finally find happiness.”
I think this goes all the way back to the gnostic tree, and how everything has to be brought into balance to achieve Final Heaven.
Introduction: Where the Characters Begin in FF7
At the beginning of the story, Aerith was treated all her life as special by certain individuals - Turks, Shinra/Hojo, Elmyra, Zack. This gave her a very young Queen Victoria levels of self-importance and obstinence, very self-centered world view if you will, and that's why in OG she's always asking Cloud what he thinks about her etc (which actually implies she's rather confused that she isn't already the center of his world somehow) during dialogue options. This is also I believe partially why she seems to sense Ifalna, Elmyra’s husband, and Zack enter the Lifestream, yet seems inured when two reactors, a plate, and the related mass loss of life occurred. Surely she should have been overwhelmed by the sheer number of souls passing back into the Lifestream, yet she seems perfectly deaf to this mass upheaveal and more concerned about her own earthly affairs as she meets Cloud? Sounds oddly cold for a steward of the planet who could hear its cries, however faintly. There’s no Obiwan-Alderaan moment for her at all. Her starting point is that she misses the forest for the trees.
Meanwhile, we have Tifa, who though in her youth was the center of a circle of friends, we learn during the Lifestream that none of them actually understood her, esp obvious during her grief over her mother's death. For an introvert, this is actually a deeply socially draining experience, and since then, given how one by one her social circle deserted her and the village for job opportunities, she is left to believe she's simply a cog in the Grand Scheme. She's always had to suppress her own self and think of others before her. It doesn't matter that she probably wants to leave the village that's been emptied of her peers - she's the chief's daughter so she must stay. It doesn't matter that she disagreed over the reactor bombings, for the Greater Good Avalanche must do something to save the Planet, so she had to acquiesant against her own wishes. It was she who worried and grieved most for the two reactor bombings and the plate fall and its associated loss of life, even though she still had Cloud with her, and realistically couldn’t actually hear the cries of the Planet. Her starting point is that she misses the trees for the forest.
In other words, at the beginning of the story, Aerith is too selfish and Tifa is too selfless. And as author Rick Riordan once wrote, "The most dangerous flaws are those which are good in moderation. Evil is easy to fight. Lack of wisdom… that is very hard indeed." (Athena, The Titan's Curse)
Aerith’s Character Arc in FF7
Over the course of the story, we see Aerith, even while leveraging her position and her blood against Shinra's encroachment, was equally afraid of her own powers. She ignored and hid herself away from the problems of Gaia, hiding under the protection of Elmyra for as long as she could. She disregards opinions and feelings of others like when she totally misjudged how to handle Barret's raw emotions over Corel at the Gold Saucer. She was not at all oblivious to Tifa's feelings yet still attempted to monopolize Cloud's attentions in front of her. This behaviour can be traced back to her need to stand firm against the Turks’/Shinra’s persuasions, though when used on regular people like the team, it is very offputting, abrasive, thoughtless and likely was what actually alienated her peers from her growing up. Ultimately, she made the fatal mistake of believing she knows what's best for the group in merrily skipping off alone into the Forbidden City (I mean, sure, we all know Cloud was unstable from the Jenova manipulation but there were 7 other sane party members who could have been consulted and split up before she skipped off unprotected?), and ultimately her fatal flaw of arrogance and selfishness caused her death. Not because she meant to die, knowing it will protect the planet, because she'd always intended to return to the team ("She talked about the future more than the rest of us"), but she died anyway because her arrogance and selfishness were her fatal flaw.
I think it is only in death, though unaddressed explicitly by the game story itself (which of course remains on the living party members, and therefore is the story of life, and how life still moves on after death), that she truly grasped the littleness of who she is. That ultimately, back in the Lifestream with all the other Cetras, she was finally able to understand that in the end, she was just another Cetra in the great battle against Jenova. Sure, she was the Cetra who summoned Holy, but it was actually doing more harm than good by itself. It was only with the collective power and force of the Lifestream, of all who were born of the Planet and all who returned to the Planet, that Meteor was able to aid Aerith (Holy) in pushing back Meteor. In accepting her ordinariness among the Cetra is when Aerith truly becomes the mother of Gaia, even if nobody other than the FF7 team will ever remember her name. Her legacy lives on in Gaia, along with the legacy every other Cetra died to preserve.
Aerith's character arc is to temper her selfishnes with selflessness, to care for the welfare of all instead of the welfare of a few individuals, and to recognise that she is but a small part in the greater plan, that it is ok to not be special. Her special blood didn't stop her from dying, nor was she alone the only saviour of the Planet. In the end, I believe that Aerith's journey in FF7 is her journey to understand that no matter how special she seems to be, in the end, the Planet will still live on without her too, with Nanaki as the probable successor to her decimated race's role as the new steward of the Planet.
Tifa’s Character Arc in FF7
As for Tifa, her character arc is the complete opposite: to temper her selflessness with selfishness. How odd a concept for a protagonist! Except it goes right back to the balance necessary to achieve Final Heaven ("The most dangerous flaws are those which are good in moderation"). Tifa is shy, she is reserved, she always puts the needs and wants of others above her own, even if she disagrees. She didn't challenge Barret when she disagrees with his methods. She didn't challenge Aerith even when her own feelings were hurt, yet still she was kind in the face of such unkindness (intentional or not). She suppressed her own feelings for Cloud and tries only to behave like a friend to him even though she feels more. And most damning in her character arc, she didn't challenge Cloud over the knowledge that "I waited... but Cloud never came." It was the only piece of the Nibelheim incident she could recall clearly, but because she was too insecure in her own memories (though the rest of the Incident could be chalked up to the trauma caused by her almost dying by Masamune, Cloud's alleged absence at Nibelheim wasn't, because she had pinned her hopes on his arrival and her disappointment was palpable) she allowed what she knew to be false to stand in between them for the sake of Cloud's mental stability.
I have posited in another post that Tifa is not only the heroine of FF7 but the co-protagonist as well, or at the very least the deuteragonist. It is very telling that 10 minutes after Aerith's death, the team went snowboarding, whereas when Cloud and Tifa were both broken emotionally by Sephiroth and had their joint Heroic BSoD moment, the game experienced a timeskip. How odd that the permanent physical death of a valued party member didn't stop the game dead but the death of Cloud and Tifa's trusts in their own memories did? Yet it is important to mention as too many times already Tifa has simply been dismissed as unimportant, as simply the crutch, the guide to Cloud's story and nothing more. This could not be further from the truth. Tifa's story does not simply inform Cloud's. Tifa's story is ENTWINED with Cloud's. Even as their stories run parallel to each other's, crossing the same events, their arcs are both independent AND interdependent on each other's. Tifa is not simply a plot device or the narrator or whatever one calls Tifa in an attempt to dismiss her role in the bigger FF7 story. (And I mention this because even some Tifa fans forget this in their desire to whitewash Tifa's culpability in the Northern Crater affair, which is actually a key turning point in Tifa's hero's journey)
Someday perhaps I will write a full breakdown of Tifa’s hero’s journey (because it’s honestly frustrating to see claims – even from Tifa fans – of Tifa needing a character arc of her own when it’s always been in FF7 all along if only players will take off their protagonist/Cloud-tinted glasses) in greater detail, but for the sake of the discussion of her arc in the context of the gnostic tree and the role of balance within oneself, I will simply say this: that it is only in the death of her trust in herself, and in seeing the emotional death of the one she holds most dear (Cloud’s mental stability shattering at the Northern Crater), that she learns she cannot simply stand passively by even in the face of what she knows to be wrong, just to protect someone else’s feelings and wants. She learns that even inaction has consequences. That she has to be brave enough, assertive enough, just selfish enough to place her own needs and desires, her own thoughts and beliefs, on an equal importance to the rest of the party, even the Planet’s. That just because the world is ending, it doesn’t make her personal struggles any less important than the world’s problems, it doesn’t mean the problem can be ignored or that it will simply go away, or even that it’s unimportant in the grand scheme of things.
She erred, she fell, she “died”. And she learned, she grasped the second chance with both hands, and at Mideel, she stood firm and said, “This is where I want to be. Being with Cloud. Caring for him.” It wasn’t revenge she pursued any longer, or high-minded abstract ideals like saving the Planet. She still would help save the Planet if she could, but for once in her life, she put her foot down and make clear her own priorities – to be by the side of the one she love above all else. And she could make this decision without jeopardizing the Planet because of her ordinariness. She wasn’t imbued with special powers or special bloodlines or special keepsakes and her absence will most likely not affect the Planet’s safety or lack thereof. Even in her absence, we are sent on story missions that still ended in failure – heck, even after Cloud and Tifa rejoined, the Huge Materia space mission still failed anyway, because the point is... just because one wants to save the Planet doesn’t mean one can (after all, summoning Holy didn’t work either, at least not at first).
This is also paralleled with Tifa’s caring of Cloud: there was literally no guarantee that Cloud will ever recover from his Mako poisoning – he could be a vegetable forever, and yet this is still Tifa’s choice. This isn’t just about Cloud, but about Tifa asserting her desire to be with Cloud even in the face of both world destruction and his permanent vegetative state. This is who Tifa wants to be, who Tifa chooses to be. This isn’t something being pushed onto her as part of some “greater good” that she should ignore her own wants and needs for. (And to all those who deride Tifa as being weak for making her choices all for one man, remember that feminism isn’t about a “strong independent woman who need no man”, it’s about having the right to choose who we wish to be without being forced by any societal expectations of us. “Life doesn't make any sense without interdependence. We need each other, and the sooner we learn that, the better for us all." — Erik Erikson. If anything, Tifa choosing to stay by Cloud’s side is the very definition of feminism – it’s not about what we do, rather, that we have a right to choose without being shamed for what we choose to do)
Yet in the Lifestream is when she truly finds herself together with Cloud. She learns that, though she believed she is too ordinary to be special to anyone (remember, though she was the center of her group of friends in her youth, none of them really looked back when the time came for them, or at least she thought none did more than mere talk anyway), she was actually the reason for Cloud’s entire journey, that he reciprocated special feelings for her, that he always intended to return for her. She learned that, just as Cloud’s impetus was her reason for taking up martial arts (one of the few acts of “rebellion”/assertiveness in her youth where she was probably pressured to stay in the village either due to her father’s position or her gender), she was the reason for Cloud’s desire to be a hero too. Tifa was special in her ordinariness. She meant enough to someone who meant enough to her.
Tifa’s arc is to recognise that though she won’t ever be important to the Planet as an individual, she was important enough to the one that mattered most. It is not wrong or “selfish” to find individual love and prioritise it equal to the needs of the Planet. And in the end, it was this revelation and resolution of both her and Cloud’s mutual feelings for each other that gave Cloud the strength he’d previously only accessed from despair five years ago, the strength to defeat Sephiroth. And it was only with Sephiroth’s defeat that Holy was unleashed, and only when the Lifestream joined its chorus that the Planet was ultimately saved. In the end, it was the importance Tifa “selfishly” placed on her own wants and needs that saved Cloud, and by saving him, the Planet as well. If she’d been told that Cloud’s predicament, a single individual, was nothing in the face of the end of the world, if she hadn’t been just that little bit selfish in the face of her extreme selflessness, it might have simply brought them nothing but destruction.
Conclusion
In this sense, I believe that Aerith and Tifa were indeed developed to be two halves of the same whole. They started off as two extremes in terms of personality – Aerith was self-centered, assertive and intransigent, while Tifa was selfless, passive and insecure. Yet these are only negative traits when taken to extreme, and by meeting each other, by learning from each other, tempering and moderating each other’s behaviour, by Aerith learning to be more considerate, more humble and more persuadable (because my god, was Aerith utterly brattish and unbearable in Remake before she met Tifa), by Tifa learning to be more assertive, more confident, to take pride in herself, the two halves of a whole bring each other to balance and become better versions of themselves for it.
"The most dangerous flaws are those which are good in moderation. Evil is easy to fight. Lack of wisdom… that is very hard indeed."
P.S. tagging @enigmaphenomenon as it was your twitter thread that inspired this post. A lot of the thoughts in this impulsive post probably definitely needs a hell lot more refining by more critical minds but I hope this is a good starting point for discussion.
So this is in the FF 20th Anniversary Ultimania: File 1 on pg. 193. This was transalted with Google Lens. I’m putting both. I also had this confirmed by two different Japanese speakers on Twitter. You can see their comments here.
This seems to play nicely with what Aerith tells us in her resolution scene.
I was also informed that the Japanese fandom does not argue about the SOLDIER vs REAL Cloud thing and it’s well known that he’s not in control in the first part of the game. I was also informed that the fight about Zack’s memories is another NA only thing…
I do think they need to do a comprehensive Ultimania after Remake is done and have it translated into multiple languages, because maybe some of this stuff will die.
Wow. This is getting ridiculous. All the people screaming at Square Enix NA for the localization/translations of FFVII Remake—you really should stop and think about what perspective you have at this moment. I understand though, really, and I’ll express why further down, but seeing the rationalization at the heart of these criticisms is making it difficult to not be frustrated at the fandom’s behavior.
A lot of you are really showing you haven’t spent the time understanding the localization/translation process that takes place within the company. Not to mention, that you refuse to listen to what the people who are officially involved with the game are telling you. This process in question directly involves the localization team internally in Tokyo at Square Enix Japan. A process that is accomplished alongside the developers and staff directly involved with the project in Japan. The recording sessions where people are physically location-wise isn’t one unified place, nor might be those who are outsourced to be a part of the process, but communication and involvement is retained through this process across the world. There are a myriad of paratext that describe this process that Square Enix has done for many different projects—Kitase talked about this for FFXIII, Nomura talked about it for KH3, and now Ben Sabin talks about it in multiple interviews for FFVIIR (here and here, go nuts). Ultimania interviews also typically cover it as well, the Asako Suga (Supervising Dialogue Editor for most KH games) interview in the KH3 Ultimania is a very good one as well. Honeywood, who was responsible for beginning the steps to a better localization process after the OG FFVII, left the company with a good foundation here for what they do and how it’s achieved.
Differences based on the team, circumstances, and even those outsourced to assist should be considered for every project SE does, but the overall approach to localization/translation is done about the same way. Has been for years now, with the changeup being in what is affected by the goal of either closer or simultaneous releases between the different languages, especially ENG and JPN. It’s a joint effort and everyone is on the same side—if you have a complaint about how something was handled in the game, this isn’t the sole responsibility and accountability of one person or one division of the company. The localization team are still people who work on the game, the final product we receive, directly and deserve more recognition than being treated like outsiders to, what could be considered, the primary developers.
But, that’s even if the issues at hand are actually issues to begin with.
It’s absolutely okay if you don’t like the way a localization turned out, that’s totally fair to not be satisfied. If a fan’s mindset behind translation/localization is to get the same experience of that of the original language, then I can’t blame you for such a goal—if anything I feel the same way, and objectively that’s a good goal to have. Additionally, it’s also fair to even have a preference between any of them, and I definitely encourage learning and understanding whatever the primary language is for a game.
However, I would implore you to also understand that this goal, through the effort and agreement of those creating the game, can be met in different ways, and analogous to that, a translation can be expressed in a multitude of ways within a context. There is an allowance of flexibility to capture the context in whatever way they see fit—and if it has a different approach or wording than the original, that does not make it “wrong” or a “mistranslation”. This type of thinking is very limited in how translation/localization works, especially for a creative project, and it fails to acknowledge the multitude of ways in which something can be said, and how contextual elements can influence the expression that can be made. There’s a difference between being wrong on a translation level by the book and being wrong contextually. It certainly can happen both ways, but often, fans will complain of things that aren’t contextually “wrong” to a consequential degree and that were intended to be the way it was in the target language.
I mean jeez, it’s all too typical that to a fan who has engaged in heated, and probably nonsensical, debate of LTD shit for 20 years would want to look at the differences through the lens of this offense. I’ve seen the same shit before in other fandoms and it’s stupidly petty.
Was it written for Olette to say “What a romantic story!” because the localization team are “Sokai” shippers? Or, is it because they saw the opportunity to add a more direct connotation to Olette’s response to Kairi telling her about Sora? You know, the person she literally has romantic storytelling with?
And for the hot topic, was Aerith’s lines in the train graveyard of claiming Cloud as her bodyguard there to preserve some apparent self-indulgent need to be “Clerith fans”? Or, was it done to express that light part of Aerith’s character in this situation where both other people are clearly much more tense? With a line of dialogue that characteristically match what she is physically doing?
“Context” is multiple and broad in meaning. The context of the circumstance and the responses by either characters did not change in either the JPN and ENG version, but there was however a different approach to their lines that emphasized a certain connotation that already fits other elements of the context of the scene. It really isn’t an issue objectively or false in nature, and there’s no means in which you can say it’s not intended to be what it is when the people with the authority of working directly on the project collaborated with the very same people you’re saying it goes against. It’s made, finalized, and meant to be what it is by decision.
C’mon, if you’re actually comprehending the multitude of resources that describe the localization process SE as a whole does for their games, knowing this is done with cooperation with the developers and those who can even fluently speak ENG and JPN who are on the development team [e.g. Yasue for KH3]—how can you truly have the audacity to say that something isn’t intended for how it was written in the target language? Really. Now there are certainly mistakes and contradictions that can be pointed out that actually DO change context and affect the understanding of the game’s world—FFXIII being the example for lore concepts—but people going line by line and pointing out the most inconsequential differences, things that don’t actually change the context of the scene or contradict all pertaining elements/persons involved….
Wow. Let’s talk about the actual mistakes that matter for understanding the story and not a line of dialogue that hits your personal nerve regarding shipping.
Wanting the game’s localization/translation to be as close to the original language [specifically, the primary language of those creating it] isn’t a problem, but the behavior and rational I’m seeing that treats this process by the lens of the LTD definitely is. Not to mention, the lack of understanding that the above goal can be met on a contextual level that has every right to be additive in whatever way the official team who produce these games see fit in the chosen language. The FFVII fandom really needs to stop treating everything as some conspiracy and mal-intent to give a false version of a game that everyone’s, including the development staff, efforts have been put into. This commentary that SE NA are the ones to blame, that there is even blame deserved to be had, and that the translation approached wasn’t intended by all parties involved in the process—how about we wait until someone from the development team somehow reveals that the localization managers rebelled against everything they worked on together and the end result was different than expected.
Otherwise, @-ing at Square Enix NA about how their creative team has an “LTD agenda” and are “Clerith-biased” is not going to be a good look for you in their eyes.
I have a friend who works at a localization company for JRPGs. Some you might know not for this game but popular ones.
I agree with most of what was said in terms of translations being correct contextually for the MOST part. And I have a pretty good understanding to what goes into localizations and translation and I don’t think this one was the worst ever. But I will say I did see some very glaring issues that stemmed from some strange decisions.
My issues with the localization weren’t really about shipping scenes so to speak though, but the way the localization team in NA, and this is the case in MOST NA localizations tend to change lines around that change the way characters are percieved so it fits a more, dare I say it, American vibe? Tifa’s shyness and demure nature for example getting lost in changing her expression and tone to make her sound jealous of A for instance. While in Japanese it makes sense since she likes Cloud to show a bit of curiosity and even jealousy in a new girl it kind of took over the entire scene making it come across more harsh than in Japanese. Another thing with Aerith saying mine. Her character makes sense in Japanese. The Japanese trope of the girl who is carefree and flirty and also blunt. However, in that scene when we translate it to English, with the American culture lens it makes her look obnoxious and like she is egging on Tifa. It looks like a catfight vibe almost where in Japanese there was none to be had.
While I understand the localization is not separate from the developers and home team I will say there is this issue when Japanese stuff gets brought oversees that is very noticeable. And that is the tendency to Westernize or Americanize scenarios that might be considered “too Japanese for these Westerners let’s make it mainstream”. Reminded of the jelly donuts in Pokémon and all the out of place jokes in old dubbed anime.
Sometimes localization will even create scenarios that don’t even exist because the Japanese scenario might not be “relatable enough” or because fans “expect to see it”. Looking at you nonexistent Digimon Adventure love triangle that spanned two seasons.
While Japanese media does tend to cater to fan expectations as well, there is an understanding between fan and creator that certain scenarios will follow certain patterns or tropes. Any avid anime watcher can see certain scenes and understand where it’s going based on certain cues. A tsundere character is understood to have a hidden nice side etc.
However not just with SE, but certain companies seem to think maybe fans won’t “get it” maybe ? So they either erase those tropes and change them to match the culture of the audience they’re localizing for orrrr they try to find some equivalent which honestly many times doesn’t exist. The result is people who aren’t familiar with these tropes kinda miss the point because the devs will present their game one way and then the localization will try to be the “Americanized?” Version that doesn’t exactly match. Which does end up unintentionally changing the context of scenes and even the way certain characters are viewed.
For example the classic tsundere guy which is SOLDIER Cloud. Vs the kuudere guy which is real Cloud. As his trope goes, he seems to not care so much for those around him but opens up to show over time he is kind underneath all that.
This character archetype kind of exists in Western media but not in the exact same way. If we’re trying to match it to be more Americanized we end up with “jerk with a heart of gold” which is not exactly the same concept even if it’s similar. As a result when you compare NA Cloud’s lines with Japanese Cloud’s NA Cloud comes across as a jerk with a kinda soft side, while Japanese Cloud is actually very polite (besides his rudeness to Barret in the beginning), considerate and we understand that his cool, devil may care attitude is a FRONT and not his actual personality. This idea gets really lost as the translation in NA has a lot of his lines sound like “jerk with a heart of gold” and most people will pick up on “jerk” not that it’s a front.
Tifa’s demure nature is very Yamato Nadeshiko but in English her shyness comes off as insecurity so any tiny bit of jealousy shows off as a more negative vibe than in Japanese where she is shy and hesitant but her jealousy is definitely way more toned down and its supposed to be a cute hint she likes Cloud. Which in NA the scenes where she is jealous makes it look like she sees Aerith as her rival. Completely changing her facial expression in only the NA localization was also a very weird choice.
Overall, I have to say in these cases the other localizations especially the German actually did capture original intent the best as it had the least unnecessary changes. While many of the NA localizations choices really did not add any understanding even if they are contextually correct and some shifted the focus of the scene entirely.
Finally, Aerith has that pushy girl attitude fit for a carefree heroine. In Japanese this works well because she is oblivious to the feelings of others. But the NA choice to try to replicate this tried to Americanize her by making her kind of no nonsense flirty etc. And this just comes across as inconsiderate. Even going as far to change a line where she did not hear Cloud to outright ignoring him and talking over him.
SE does have this problem in general though with trying to match up tropes with non existent equivalents without really thinking how it comes across. And then we end up with things like a genki guy like Tidus being seen as one of the most obnoxious MCs and characters with many of his lines just being grating as they try to make a genki character like a jock but also quirky. It doesn’t work. We also have characters like Auron and Jecht sounding completely cheesy in an attempt to make them sound “cool”. The more cartoony appeal of many JRPG characters making it so that sometimes if you try to make them more relatable it feels kind of off if their lines are not really reflecting reality in the first place, especially if you’re trying to make the script all flashy and witty on top of it. FFX is a big example of this, while with Kingdom Hearts its already reallyyyyy cheesy so it kind of works in its favor.
As for, quite a few lines that are changed some of them also have the problem of trying to be cool or witty in exchange for lines that basically made more sense because witty banter is expected in more Americanized media while some parts that WERE actually witty banter were replaced to not be.
And some plot important lines were changed for seemingly no reason and muddied the context. Such as Aerith’s “I’d like to spend more time with you” which is super important to establish the narrative and Zack’s hidden role being completely replaced. And Sepiroth’s “I’m your lord and master” line establishing his manipulation of puppet Cloud. While I appreciate Sepihikura fanservice the point of that scene was kinda buried under the suggestive line that completely changes the context.
It’s not justttt shipping.
The choices made overall were weird ones. And I think the reason might be because of the idea that the original was “too Japanese ” not “Western enough”. As I said a lot of localizations in general seem to have this problem. Not all but SE definitely does. And it’s not that I disliked the English script.
I found it very enjoyable, but the original was great as it was. And I can’t help but think it would be better if they would be confident enough to push through with their original intent as transparent as possible, than try to push an image that caters to an audience that many aren’t used to these portrayals anyway. Not everyone is a JRPG or anime fan and will understand the honestly very anime tropes found in these types of games, but that means there is even less reason to try to match with their expectations because the charm for them is that different kind of vibe they get from playing games like these. These games no matter what fans think are NICHE despite their global audience and that’s okay. That’s their charm and it kinda bugs me they feel such a need to appeal to the mainstream.
And again it’s not just with FF7 or SE a LOT of localizations do this. While I understand why, I do wish SE would realize their fans would definitely appreciate the game for what it is and the script for what it is even if they may not understand every cultural reference. And they shouldn’t feel the need to change things that are pretty good and even better in some cases, as is.
Trusting fans to understand and appreciate the story as is…especially a story with a complex narrative in the first place where changing things up helps literally no one understand it more anyway… I think SE can afford to do that. The global impact it has had, the popularity of JRPGs in general and the success of Japanese media overseas should definitely tell them that yes Japanese games sell even without the westernized makeover they think they need.
That’s just my take on that.
I agree the fandom should not take it as a giant offense especially in the case of shipping as it’s not really about that nor would I call the changed lines mistranslations but I do see why many are upset because it’s like we got a version that was trying harder to meet fan expectations and be mainstream than tell the story as is.
Despite knowing the developers wouldn’t know about it I can’t help but get the feeling of a “This is what’s cool in America these days right?” vibe regarding SE’s attitude to localization. And yeah… It’s unecessary and takes away from the final product, I think. And at the expense of sounding like a total elitist otaku the original script definitely did it better.
The NA voice acting was phenomenal though and I think that is what makes it not so terrible in the end.
And again this is the case for MANY JRPGS and Japanese media with a large following.
And that’s totally understandable, though if on the matter of what is essentially personal perception of what someone gets from a scene, that’s not something that can be too accounted for anyway. This is true even for the Japanese version. I can’t speak for all JPN fans of course, but I know of some who look at these comparisons as either not a “change”, or thought of it similarly even in JPN. Whatever “vibes” someone picks up can vary—JPN fans just wouldn’t be able to use that as a means of claiming it isn’t intended to be the way it was by the writers like oversee fans tend to do. Which is still mostly where I’m at with this.
Conversations on “I felt it did this” or analyzing how it impacts characterization and narrative can always be constructive and interesting to see where one stands (I fundamentally disagree on most of that, mostly the CC line, but I don’t recall what the Sephiroth one was atm). But mostly, I just wanted to emphasize that my main point is about not having this cross over into creating a stigma towards SE’s localization department and making claims about agendas or betrayed intentions that can’t securely be accounted for, which almost always leads to treating the ENG localization as some “false” version of the product or specific dialogue. I don’t really look at FF7R’s localization as “Americanized” in intention as much as it was creatively expressing certain things differently as what can happen in translation—this still being done in the process that SE has for its localization team that should be trusted, unless a hard contextual contradiction occurs that goes beyond perception speaks otherwise (FFXIII heart/soul mishap being one) for the specific project, and even then that should just be on the specific detail alone. There are just too many misconceptions and accusations circling around about FF7R’s localization team where the information otherwise from the parties’ mouths creates a different picture.
But, I understand you (hell, ironically enough you helped send me down the path to look at the localization process a bit more deeply). And like I said, I can’t blame people for wanting to feel like they’re getting the game as is, with translations more strict as opposed to flexible. I mean, there are definitely things in KH3, for example, that I have to know they took some poetic/embellished liberties with certain entries that otherwise were….very easy to translate and be understood more to what it was. But, they can do that, and for some fans may not like it or perceive it as unnecessary, which is fine in the art of discussion, but as it is, those in the localization department are in the position that can make those decisions, and this can and does go through many people in the company, including the writers and directors as they can be in the know and involved. I only feel compelled to say something because of the nasty attitudes from fans taken out towards SE over this (or let’s be honest, Ben Sabin—who I’m also suspicious is actually literally in the Tokyo office, just like Honeywood was for a time. The other people who worked specifically on the ENG version may have been, though.).
Well I do think it’s striving for a more Westernized sounding script as that’s what localization does. It is a way to make sure a game is understood or taken well by an audience in this case a non Japanese audience as FFVII is a JRPG. Many references that might be offensive to an audience of another culture or might not be easily understood is replaced or changed. It’s not just translations though, sometimes entire scenarios are changed.
Poison for example in Street Fighter, the nonexistent love triangle I mentioned in Digimon Adventure that not only didn’t exist in the original it literally wasn’t a thing because one part of it were already a canon couple and another liked someone else. The many changes to CardCaptor Sakura to avoid showing a same sex relationshipvand confused feelings which ended up changing the situation and relationships of several characters. Sailormoon’s dub having Sailor Uranus and Neptune as cousins cuz “lesbians bad”. All of that is examples of localization.
SE is not so drastic but in general changing up even story elements in an English localization is not uncommon.
And I will say I only ever have seen this with English localizations. I grew up watching anime and Puerto Rico and in Spanish everything said in the Spanish version of many shows was pretty much word for word what was in the Japanese. I also have a habit of watching series in many different languages German is usually also very faithful.
It’s always the English localization that is the most different or has many translation liberties. JRPGs are no exception. It’s common to finish scenarios that are completely different in the English version of a JRPG usually with jokes and witty lines added to appeal more to what I guess Japanese developers think is what he hip Americans would relate to.
That’s what I mean by Americanized.
As for personal interpretation in any language that’s always a thing right? But what I mean is its not just a few lines changed even the image of the characters and their lines is changed so it fits a certain image that I guess the developers think would be more relatable or they didn’t realize you can’t just take a trope like tsundere character give them English lines and call it s day so they tried to show that aspect of them without realizing it doesn’t translate as well as they thought it would. This results in for example English Clouds lines sounding a lot more jerkish than he does in Japanese. Because there really is no English equivalent of a tsundere character and their lines would sound weird to an audience not used to that. So in a sense the localization did it’s job. Or rather definitely tried to… However, the changing of so many lines, and taking so many liberties did end up affecting the context in several parts.
Aerith’s I’d like to spend more time with you is our hint of her motivation to try to find out more about her lost love but it’s also a hint that there is this hidden secret narrative. All of Sector 5 is but it was heavily altered in tje English. That is definitely noticeable. Aerith’s genki attitude in the translation used and the lines changed does come across as inconsiderate not because of personal interpretation but because the lines are completely different etc. As I said Tifa’s expression in the train tunnel scene is literally changed to look jealous in only the NA version. In every other version she is scared. This goes beyond taking a few liberties and one needs to question why.
As for taking liberties and embellishing I get that. But it does tend to go beyond that.
I remember talking to my localization friend who did tell me a localization usually wants to take into account the social views of the audience so Aerith’s more in charge independent woman attitude is probably the image of empowerment they were going for.
Same with Tifa. However, I’m not sure if it completely translated as I said the lines that were changed don’t sound like this but like she is ignoring Cloud. Which is literally not the case in the original. So again context is changed.
I hope that makes sense.
I don’t think Ben Sabin is a villain but I do question what he was going for with a lot of his choices.
Oh I know what you mean by “Americanized” in general, though I’m saying I don’t think the “idea of merica’” was behind most of the changes fundamentally. There are other, more creatively based, reasons why something might be translated more freely.
That Aerith line—are you sure you’re not simply interpreting this line as something more than a sort of “backward” reference to her relationship with Zack? The same as the “one date” line? She does asks questions to Cloud about Zack, but if that line was also a sincere indication of wanting to spend time with Cloud/not being sick of him, then the at least the more in-context meaning isn’t lost. References can be lost in translation (this is like the Paopu Fruit scene between Sora and Kairi in KH3), but it doesn’t always equate to a complete change of focus from what the scene really is about.
I feel like a change of context should largely be argued if it’s something that cannot be understood from the comparison source, and while there’s a line where the ability to do so/not do so can vary, it’s part of the point of context as a whole that there’s going to be something represented that goes beyond the single scene (or line of dialogue) itself. That is, changes could be made to a scene because of an emphasis of something that is still a part of the character or something else—I equally wouldn’t see any difference if the circumstance surrounding the “I want to spend more time with you” was reversed with the language versions. It’s not like they’re both not valid, and yeah, it does suck to miss out on something you otherwise would catch as a double meaning. To me, and really for that piece of the narrative, it isn’t that important of a loss.
The actual narrative driven scenes for Zack’s character and his relationship with Aerith are still completely present in the localization, though, being that park scene, the bridge, and the ending. If you’re arguing that Aerith’s personality in the ENG version is generally different or can’t be understood from that of the JPN version, I don’t agree with this. If you see the JPN Aerith as someone who acts in a way that’s “oblivious to other’s feelings”, her speaking over Cloud is a trait I would expect there. (I don’t really recall when this happens btw, so I would like to know which scene you’re referring to).
And if for Tifa’s scene—I can agree that a frown (ENG) vs. a gasp (JPN) are two different things, but both of these are still directly a reaction to Aerith saying what she says and grabbing onto Cloud. I’m not seeing why the JPN version is completely taken as Tifa being scared in reaction to Aerith doing/saying that. As you said, it’s toned down, but the jealousy certainly can still be garnered even from the JPN version. I…why would this be an issue, really, if that is something all parties involved in the production thought was something that could be emphasized?
I don’t think it’s wrong to question why these decisions are made and approved, I do too, most notably when animation is changed because that’s much more interesting to evaluate than dialogue considering animation. There’s definitely a reason it happens, but I won’t assume that it’s for the sake of presenting a dishonest representation for the characters or the game. The team that worked on the ENG localization, which is more than just Sabin and still includes that of those from the Tokyo department, reasonably didn’t have this happen solely on their own discretion.
There are certainly things that can go under people’s noses, especially when considering language barriers can do this often, but why do we assume that in the efforts put in by the company, that these decisions aren’t approved and understood by anyone else beside a single person?
I don’t think fundamentally they were trying to be more American as their sole purpose for changing the script. Well that wouldn’t be
Ben’s reason. But in general Japanese media companies do strive for that so I definitely think it played a role in why they allowed for such creative liberties to be taken.
Nowhere else are these liberties so prevalent as in the NA version. Every other version pretty much has a few changes here and there but as I said the Spanish, the German the French etc.. Are almost word for word the same as the Japanese. If the idea is they just wanted a more creative interpretation generally why only do we see the NA version full of liberties? Should it not be across the board? You get what I mean?
And the scenes I refer to are these
When Cloud falls through the church roof and has the weird illusion of Sepiroth “I am your…everything” instead of “I am your… Lord and master.”
The scene with Tifa frowning. This is my rough translation
Aerith: Let’s go
Tifa: But
Aerith: Don’t worry we got a great bodyguard here
Cloud : Ghosts are outside my area of expertise
Tifa when she grabs his arm: Somehow you can do it can’t you?
The context is that Tifa is scared if not slightly jealous and this is the same in EVERY version except the English where they decided to make her look completely jealous. Why?
Basically it’s that these changes choose to emphasize things not so present in the original. The focus of that scene in every other version is mostly fear with some comic relief, and cute jealousy. Not 100% jealousy.
That scene in German makes the most sense. “We have a great bodyguard here” “Ghosts are outside my field” “No excuses okay, do your job” Tifa is trying to get Cloud to go in the tunnel because she is scared. Some shenanigans ensue with Aerith holding onto Cloud not knowing she was making her jealous but that’s not the focus of the scene.
While I understand the “mine” is added to make Aerith look more oblivious of others it comes across especially with the uneccessary expression change like Aerith was egging Tifa on on purpose. Which when you see that the previous scenes are about Tifa and her getting closer is kinda of a step back as well. Making them friends and a little jealous is fine but to shift the entire scene to equate to only jealousy? Is that the message they want?
As for Aerith’s line I would say it is double meaning and she says it again in every other version “I’d like to spend more time with you.” But in the English I’m not sick of you yet makes her again sound different. Also I miss it the steel sky vs I hate the sky (it takes all my important people away) are two different ideas. One has to do with her backstory the other just sounds homesick.
There are many Aerith lines I can point out where she is oblivious but NA made her just talk over Cloud however the one that stands out to me the most is the playground scene. “Why don’t we we take a break?”
“No. I don’t have time for–”
cuts him off
“THIS place looks nice”
Implications she HEARD Cloud but doesn’t care about what he wants. Talks over him.
Japanese
“Why not we take a break”
“No I don’t have time for –”
Already at the top of the ladder. “Cloud, hurry!”
Implications. She didn’t hear him. She unintentionally talks over him.
In terms of several more Aerith scenes they emphasized her pushiness over her obliviousness too. So I do question why as it doesn’t create the best picture of her character as I said to fans not used to the genki girl approach. It’s not even really showing her ask genki but pushy, hence the many fans who disliked Aerith in OG exactly because she came across as plain pushy and not genki. It reinforces that misconception.
SE accepted these changes probably because they don’t realize how it comes across. They probably do just see iy as creative liberties a way to make it more interesting. But as I said they probably also did think the witty lines and mainstream appeal is what fans would like. There is definitely the idea that their game “needs” these changes for the NA market otherwise why we would they have so many in the English version but as I said not the others?
I don’t think it was much of an exploration of what language can do by Ben especially when some lines are just not even in the same ballpark translation wise and are just different altogether. And I say this as someone who always defends localizations because I do get it. But as I said this is a trend with so many JRPGs that it’s hard for me to believe oh they’re just flexing their creativity like every other JRPG that has very different script and sometimes just completely different scenarios altogether also “flexes their creativity”?
While Ben was literally the outlier in the “creativity” as far localizers go for this game?
The English version is always very different and I think it’s more about what they think will appeal to their audience than their interest in the nuance of language. In the case of SE anyway. Perhaps Ben considered it purely based on the creativity aspect. But i am very sure SE approved it because it sounded like what they thought their fans NA would want. Not their German fans apparently nor their French ones etc. And we have to think. Why would they think we want that and not the original? Because of what I said JRPGS are definitely considered niche and they wanted to appeal to the mainstream. And what is considered mainstream in Japan IS sounding more “Merica” and “vibin with what those Westerners will find cool” even if it’s not their sole intention. This is very prevalent. In the media in general. Adding Engrish to songs, changing scenarios, taking away references, adding jokes where there aren’t any is their idea of how to be more “mainstream” and appeal more to a global audience. See Nier Gestalt/Replicant and how they literally made two protagonists with completely different designs and backstory so the game could sell in the West. Which wss genius but still. So it makes sense for them to be fine with changes to their story if they think it will accomplish that.
And that’s not intentional deception or villainy or Ben pushing an agenda as much as it is trying to reach a wider audience but it really wouldn’t be a bad thing to just go with what is there either.
Maybe what I’m seeing is different than what you are since it’s hard af to find both Japanese voice/text version, but the scene at the playground isn’t like what you described there even vocally. She interrupts him in the same manner (that’s when she says his name and something else I can’t recognize by ear), and THEN she says “hayaku” (which should mean quickly, swiftly, fast; basically c'mon, in this context) at the top of the steps. Aerith isn’t painted with an unrecognizable brush than that of the JPN version, and this with deep consideration of her presentation in the entire game. I genuinely don’t agree with how she’s being pushed as inconsiderate in such a general manner from the ENG localization.
And yeah, the ENG version emphasises the jealousy more than the JPN version for Tifa, but when the context of that sequence is considered in full, where Tifa’s fear IS made apparent, that’s an opportunity that can be thought of to take if they wanted to.
And, the “steel sky” as far as I’m concerned is linked to her background when it’s linked to her life in the slums and what she thinks of the people and meaning from this. Previous conversations set this, and when this is pretty much paired to Aerith’s speech on the bridge about the sky; there is an understanding that can be taken there that is much more than just being homesick. With the right interpretation, that can be linked to her thoughts on those taken away from it and her venturing off into a journey that exposes her to that part of the story. It’s not the same, but there can be much more than just “homesick” taken away from there.
I mean, if it came down to these specific lines, why should this be taken as an offense outside of someone’s desire to have things be the same as the JPN version? There is a fear of having the game not being authentic to what was written directly from the origin source, but this with too many assumptions that differences can’t be considered authentic by the making of it, which is not synonymous with being conflicting or contradicting contextually. It’s not a bad thing to want things to be the same, and I could say I’d want it like that too, but that doesn’t mean its absolutely necessary that they do it this way.
Also, we don’t need to keep comparing the ENG version to EACH localization, which very easily can come down to the more specifics to the process of each localization. Have you ever considered that the ENG localization team had more opportunities to flexible than that of the other teams? That Sabin was primarily on-site in Tokyo as I believe the Ultimania interview, amongst others, imply? I can’t speak on every single localization, or that on capacity for every work that the ENG is consistently taking liberties more than other languages: I want to pay attention to what SE does and their process, which most paratext corresponding to said localization process arguably has more consideration and spoken for with the ENG localization than the other versions. Knowing what I do about SE and their efforts towards localization, especially that of the ENG version, I won’t take every difference as something that doesn’t reflect what those who create the game want for this version of the game and were able to do, maybe more than what they could’ve for other versions.
I know, that may sometimes be in the mindset of “maybe Americans want this”, I agree. But, if that’s edging to conversations of being completely displaced or out of mind from the original source, this isn’t always the case. I don’t believe that’s here for the production put in this game.
It’s not that anyone has to like any final product or decisions made; this doesn’t what verison it is or what point in developlent it happens. But if I’m asking all these “why” questions, and I take what information is available to cover it, then there are options available that aren’t conducive of creating a stigma on the localization department and developers unfairly.
There isn’t much else to say, but I understand. The idea of changing things for an appeal is definitely a thing, I’m not saying it’s not. But like, this is still a farcry from what I care about and the intentions of my post, which is being against painting those who made the decisions as conspiring and villainous or the ENG version being assumed as some false version. It may not be to a person’s liking, but between all of enjoying/prefering the changes, being just fine with it, or deeming it as harmful to the perceived intentions of the writers, anyone is free to do this without creating misconceptions of the company.
I get the concern, and like I said, I wouldn’t care if it was the same across the board either. But when considering the differences, as you said, it isn’t the worst. I don’t think it was done for necessity of being Americanized, at least not every approach, but as it is, we’re just different on that.
Perhaps it’s just our backgrounds are different I don’t know how many JRPGS you have played but I see it as basically they all do this. I play JRPGS almost exclusively so that is me and no matter the company I see similar complaints. Which is why I’m not surprised. SE consistently does do this though which is why I pointed out Nier in and tied it their approach to localization of going as far to make a new protagonist for the Western market. So for me, I don’t see it at as purposely straying from intentions I see it as changing things with the maybe misguided? idea it will appeal more.
As for Japanese, I don’t know if you’re a translator yourself but I have been studying (it self taught but still) for 18 years so when I hear it I do tend to zero in on the nuances.
More than I’m sure the audience in general would because my ear is attuned to the differences just by habit. Certain phrases sound softer or less confrontational in Japanese because it’s a language that strives for politeness while in English those same scenes do sound harsher or rude in comparison just by default. But also the changing of lines adds to this and didn’t translate as perfectly as the localization team thinks. Its not really in the intention but the tone, the words used the context and it’s hard to explain but hayaku is definitely softer in that scene than “THIS place looks nice” even though both are insistent one does sound more aware than the other. Localization is not so much about getting the intent perfect after all but about taking into consideration how an audience from different backgrounds would respond and changing things up so they can get the idea without being offended or out of the loop. But if how it comes across is people get a negative view of the character or situation can we realllyyy say that was the intent? Is the audience not supposed to want to listen to A’s story, find her endearing in that moment? Not wonder why she keeps cutting off Cloud and how rude it sounds? So toning that down rather than emphasizing it I think would have made sense. Same with the jealousy.
As for the “homesick” line. Yes with the right interpretation we can find the actual meaning. But in reality we can’t just assume the audience will think: “Hey remember that convo in chapter 5 ohhhh there is a connection there?” At face value “I hate the sky” gives a more direct connection with her background, even to non CC players because it implies she has some story reason to say this. “I miss the steel sky” doesn’t suggest much at face value beyond “wow she misses the slums guess they were important to her Welp.” When her hating the sky is tied to her character arc, her dead loved ones her fascination with airships despite this. Metaphors for what the sky represents etc just by itself. It goes so much deeper on its own and even a casual observer would realize there is some reason she hates the sky even if they don’t understand all the connotations. It’s just more significant in a way and more personal to have a character say “I hate x”
It’s like with the JP everything is kinda just laid out plain and simple and the NA is more flowery so meaning gets unintentionally hidden unless you are paying extra attention. But most casual players are just hearing what is there not going back to analyze. So I do wonder why when the purpose of a localization is to make it EASIER to connect the dots would they go this route. Some decisions like this really do confuse me as it doesn’t seem to be about localizing for the sake of increasing understanding but more about being creative and fancy with different interpretations. It’s not a huge loss but it’s definitely kind of a weird choice.
Also I think I am less offended but still attuned to these differences because I have an interest in localization and translations just in general. I find conversations about it fascinating. I have to translate just in general myself in my job in another language and my hobby is Japanese translation and I love seeing different ways things are translated or localized.
But I do think fans have valid criticism that goes beyond being purist or shipping .
As I said I also have a friend who works in this so we do discuss it. And she thinks the same thing. So I don’t think it’s just me here. As I said I tend to defend translations and localizations tooth and nail. As does she because she understands the work involved.
But even I was like ummmmmm k…..
and that’s saying something.
I think fans do have this desire to have things unchanged and I don’t think change is bad at all. But even I who tend to be very open minded about these things sat down to see what all the fuss is about and looked at the text and watched Let’s Plays in Japanese… And I found a lot of little changes throughout that had me wondering. Because it did just seemed like they were going out of their way to change things. And as a fan of SE who has played almost every SE game I don’t think if terrible nor does it ruin the experience for me.
And I definitely don’t think it should translate to thinking their is some agenda or evil deception plot at hand but
But when I see fans complain it caters to LTD more. It definitely does. Albeit unintentionally.
When I see people saying oh these lines are so different they definitely are. Likely an effort to be creative not as a conspiracy but yes they are different. It’s not a completely different version or anything and I definitely agree it should not be seen as lesser or invalid or like betrayal of intent.
But when it comes to why the devs would possibly stray from their original it does make sense to me based on what I have seen and SE’s track record with these things to think they probably thought it’s what would be more appealing based on the reasons I gave.
Of course attacking the localization team is not the answer or thinking they changed things without the developers knowing of course they need to work with the company. I said the same about Midgar Blues. No one is just doing things on their own everything needs approval. Especially with as you said localization not being about making a 1:1 replication of the original there also SHOULD be room for creativity. But I definitely get why people complain as well.
Good talk. I definitely enjoy the topic of localization as that and translation are huge interests of mine.
And I can hook you up with some Japanese voice/text scenes if you want them as I use them for my own essays. Japanese let’s players sometimes make videos with the cutscenes. I encourage people to check them out.
Though I agree let’s not act like it’s a giant conspiracy or betrayal of the original.
I didn’t know that Tifas expression had changed, and that one does surprise me, not because it’s a huge change, but because it’s so minor. With the voice acting they’re forced to do their own thing, and it takes effort to get as close to the original as possible. There will naturally be differences in tone and implication, so it’s hard to figure out if those differences are the result of conscious choice, or simply their best attempt at minimizing differences.
However, with the expression change they had to go out of their way to intentionally change Tifas expression, even though an expression, unlike language, can be understood by all peoples and cultures. There was a conscious choice to change the visual language, a conscious choice to change the viewers interpretation. And not for some huge change, no, they put in effort to change something relatively minor, that makes the fact that they bothered to do it all the more bizarre to me, and therefore meaningful.
Concerning the interpretation of the steel sky line, I can say that I played FFVII remake in english, and have played CC and was very aware of Aerith saying that the sky frightened her, and my interpretation of the english text wasn’t that she was homesick, but that she missed the safety of the future being set in stone.
The sky doesn’t just represent the people she lost, to me, it’s always represented freedom and infinite potential (that looks SO liberating).
This becomes especially poignant in FFVII:R, where the future is supposedly set in stone and Aerith knows what will happen. FFVII:R ends with fate supposedly having been changed, and the future once again becoming a great unknown with infinite possibilities, like a great, neverending sky. Aerith, like the player, misses the secure safe blanket of knowing what is going to happen.
If the line had been “the sky, I hate it”, I might not have interpreted it the same way, that line feels pointed more towards her pain at losing Zack, and seems connected to the scenes of Zack surviving, while the english line feels like its connecting the line to the ending of fate.
If the english interpretation is correct, then the line change is fine, but it might not be, in which case this is a problem.
There is a huge thematic difference for having a distaste of one thing, or a longing for the opposite thing. If Aerith hates the sky because it takes away everyone she loves, then that indicates that she WANTS to change fate, and stop the sky (and meteor) from taking people away.
If Aerith misses the steel sky because she misses the safety of knowing what will happen, then she’s hesitant about changing fate.
Seemingly small changes can drastically change, or even reverse, the implications of a scene.
It is yet something that nearly (?) everyone knows about, but I’d like to come back to Tifa’s theme. Since there are only 2 pictures, there won’t be any shortcut this time :)
Many thanks to Peko who has kindly translated all the JP :)
Tifa’s theme in the OG:
This picture was found by Peko, and this is what she translated:
Next to “playing point”: The theme was created with the image of Cloud and Tifa’s reunion, and the promise they made that day in their youth. It’s suggested to be played with gentle feelings/emotions.
This is the official music sheet, by the way, so when you buy it, this is what is said about it! Reunion and the promise are the biggest themes in cloti, and it is aknowledge as such in Tifa’s own theme.
It really makes you stop and think, that a character’s own theme is waved like this around a pairing, but also a plot point (i.e. reunion, with Cloud who regains his mind). In a parallel, we also now know that Aerith’s own theme was made with the image of her waiting for Zack to come back. So the pairings, looked through the music lense, are pretty clear.
Tifa’s theme in Remake
This is from the latest Ultimania - I’m sorry I didn’t see that the image was so blurry, Peko!
For the first paragraph, here is Peko’s translation (the second paragraph is about instrument arrangement, so it’s more complicated to translate):
The original version of Tifa’s Theme song featured woodwinds and portrayed a strong pastoral image. In this work, we wanted to express more of Tifa’s enveloping kindness toward her childhood friend, Cloud, so we focused on the piano, aiming for a sound that would show the kind of healing that makes them feel relaxed when Cloud and the others arrive back at Seventh Heaven.
Yes, they talked about everyone when they come back from a mission, but they also specifically wanted to portray her gentleness towards Cloud - which is why they use “Cloud-tachi” (Cloud and the others). Once again, cloti is waved into Tifa’s theme - she has this comforting bubble even in the middle of chaos, to take Peko’s words. She makes him feel relaxed.
But do you know what this reminds me? Yes, my own post about how it’s not true!Cloud that shows up, but SOLDIER!Cloud who is more at ease and relaxed around her - which is also why we can say that he’s very much into her. Do I think that his true feelings sort of… interfere with how Cloud treats Tifa in Remake, how much he is attracted to her? I sure do. But he’s not aware of his true feelings, of his fake persona or nothing of the sort. True!Cloud has to fight his way through to hug her, and it was because she was just so broken and he truly wanted to do that, both his SOLDIER side and his true self.
To me, what’s interesting is that the devs’ words are literally translated into the music, you can find a tangible trace of them in the game, through the music! And that shows just how much care and thoughts went into this game, cloti being a part of it.
Hi guys, here’s a translation of Ayumi Ito’s interview from the newly released Material Ultimania. We also translated Sakurai Takahiro’s interview and will share it this week.
We love Ito. She is such a warm and intelligent woman, and you can tell she really loves and enjoys voicing Tifa. Did you know she took kickboxing during the recording period to better perform as Tifa?
More can be found behind the cut!
Q: Please share your reaction when you first heard that FFVII Remake would be made.
A: I couldn’t believe that they would want me to play Tifa again, and I was like, “Are you fine with me?” I was very anxious to be able to show how much I had developed, and I’m very thankful for the staff who believed in me, so I thought that I’d try my best to not go against their expectations. Actually, I asked Irino Miyu (Sora in Kingdom Hearts) who I co-starred with before, for advice to prepare for recording. I still have difficulties performing using only my voice and without using my body and expressions, so he directly taught me various techniques.
It completely destroys the narrative that “Tifa is only interested in Soldier!Cloud and if he’s not a perfect hero she would ditch him”
Mideel.
It’s really glossed over in the game about how much care Cloud would’ve needed while in his comatose state both in CC and in OG, so let’s look at what Tifa would actually need to do while caring for him.
Bowel and bladder care:
Let’s not mince words. Cloud is unable to use the toilet. Tifa would be wiping his ass and changing his diapers. If Cloud wasn’t wearing diapers, she’d be cleaning up the bags from his catheter and colonoscopy bag.
There is a doctor and a nurse there, but given both their comments it seems Tifa is the one handling most of the care while the nurse would be in charge of actually changing the catheter to a clean one rather than emptying the contents of the bag that contains Cloud’s urine and feces.
Feeding:
I suspect the nurse would be the one to insert the feeding tube while explaining to Tifa how it’s done and how to use it. Tifa would be making sure Cloud gets his nutrients by feeding him a liquid diet. This tube would be inserted through his nose and lead into his stomach.
Skin Care:
She’d be bathing him to make sure his skin is clean and dry, and preventing bedsores by routinely turning his body. Oh, and also washing his hair.
Range of Motion:
Cloud can’t move. He’s in a vegetative state. To prevent his joints and muscles from become stiff, called contractures, she’d need to work out his joints.
Here’s the definition: Contractures refer to the permanent tightening of tissues. This includes muscles, tendons, ligaments, or skin. It makes it hard or impossible to move the nearby joints.
Tifa would need to work out Cloud’s joints through some exercises to prevent his joints from tightening. Muscles are a little more difficult since when muscles aren’t used, they atrophy. If you’ve ever watched a show where someone was bedridden for a long while and get frustrated as they try to stand but can no longer support their weight despite not having a back or leg injury? It’s because when you don’t use your muscles, they get weaker.
Some examples of these exercises:
Now I don’t know how many joints the human body has, or how many of those joints need to be worked-out when a patient is in a coma, but I’m going to guess it’s a lot.
And then there’s his muscles. There are devices to help lessen muscle atrophy like using neuromuscular electrical stimulation. He’d also be wearing special stockings to prevent blood clots in his legs.
Continuing on….
Now let’s revisit the nurse in Mideel. This is the nurses job. She cares for patients, but the difference is that the nurse cares for patients who are not her friends or loved ones.
Cloud is Tifa’s friend and loved one, someone she has a connection to. It is very emotionally taxing and exhausting on a caretaker especially if the caretaker is a relative or friend of the patient.
The nurse has nothing but positive things to say about Tifa.
When Cloud was at his worst, when he was the furthest from being a perfect hero, when he was at the mercy of everybody, who was by his side? Who was there when he needed someone the most? When there was little to no hope for him to recover, when he was at his most vulnerable, who cared for him?
Tifa.
Aside from Tifa caring for Cloud, she probably sat at his side reading to him, or talking to him, having one-sided conversations with a comatose man just in case he might hear her voice.
And it is very apparent Tifa did more than just sit by Cloud’s side reading his books as the nurse comments that Tifa is finally starting to look tired and if she keeps it up she’ll get sick herself.
Tifa was neglecting her own health to be there for Cloud.
People who claim Tifa is selfish and only wanted Cloud if he was his fake, “perfect hero SOLDIER” persona did not play the game, nor do they care to actually learn about the plot or Tifa’s character. They would rather be willfully ignorant and bash Tifa.
