Words and Worlds

Asian. Immortal. Any pronouns work. Queer. This blog is about pictures and ideas and stuff, I guess.

[allebooklover]

So I was just looking at alien stage official pictures as one does when they're obsessed with the series, and I noticed some things about the karaoke party from the Cure video, and it's highly likely that both Till and Ivan both got assaulted during that party. Physically and sexually.

TW: Sexual assault

Let's start with Till first.

We know that he lost his crap during the party after being asked to sign My Clematis, resulting in lashing out at the aliens. Which results in the frame below:

They're pinning him down on the table, and one of them is bringing the muzzle around, presumably to put around his mouth. however, when we look at the next frame that cuts back to him:

He's not actually wearing the muzzle. Here's a before and after:

(also the official translation of the lyric for this frame is 'your icy lips'. uh.)

as we can see in before, he's surprisingly well put together. very dapper. Like a host. but after the frame where they pin him down and brought the muzzle, we cut to him sprawled on the floor, collar and neck tie unbuttoned and loosened. No muzzle in sight - which implies that they put it on him and took it off.

And Till is very, very out of it - He's sweating and his eyes are unfocused. He wouldn't perform earlier and fought back, but now he's letting an alien pat his head like one would a dog without resistance. He's physically uninjured even though they pinned him to a table, but now he's tired out and in so much distress that he's hallucinating Mizi to save him right before passing out.

We really only see him wearing the muzzle from that frame after the party ends and he's passed out:

They placed a muzzle on him after he passes out, but not before? Even though there was one singular frame of it during the fight? Vivinos and Qmeng production teams are masters of symbolism and details, I don't think they left anything out.

And the aliens themselves, well. previously they wanted Till to sing for them, but after the fight it cuts to this:

They're doing another activity. Happily, at that.

Till went rabid and disrupted the activities they had planned. This would normally be a cause for irritation, but after one frame of them pinning Till down, we cut to them directly doing another activity happily? and if you look at the background and above pictures - an alien is patting Till's head like he's done something good. Even though he went rabid earlier.

Yeah, something big happened inbetween the cuts.

My theory is this:

This karaoke party was a host-like activity where Till is implied to be made to sing to entertain the guests. When he refused and fought back, that's when they decide to have their entertainment and revenge on Till somehow. We can see that he's not physically injured, which means that it couldn't have been physical beatings, but they did do something to him because again, his clothes are a mess and he passes out soon after in distress, all of which heavily implies the aliens chose to have their fun by SA'ing Till. It's common in the entertainment industry and it would explain why the alien is patting him on the head and why he's got no muzzle on - they got their entertainment from him if unwillingly, took the muzzle off, and are now telling him 'good job entertaining us' which is. yeah.

What really convinced me was Ivan's birthday art though.

Ivan:

ok so, this is his outfit during the after party scene where he finds Till:

which matches up almost perfectly with the birthday picture official art below, in both outfit and the color of the sofa he's on:

This implies that he was in the same area as Till - probably also doing host like activities at a different party, but in the same area, which explains how he managed to find Till so quickly.

This is an overall very amazing fanservice piece that was probably intended to be Ivan appearing as a seductive and sexy. Great day for the fans (myself included lol). But also like, look at the way this is posed.

Singing normally requires standing up to use your full diaphragm for maximum breath control. However, Ivan's lying down while singing in this picture, which makes singing a lot harder. Whatever the aliens are after, Ivan's singing is secondary to that goal.

Also, Ivan has got an arm outstretched, his jacket has fallen off the top half of his body and is pooling on the sofa, and he's singing with a smile and an inviting expression (although important to note that his eyes are dead looking, no shine whatsoever). his shirt has gaps - at the chest area and the belly button. This is clearly intended to be seductive, and from the way fans act, its evident that it is very effective. But why?

Vivinos and Qmeng are masters at detailing and from the frames above we know that this is related to the karaoke party scene. and as we look closer, there are more details that make this unsettling:

look at the shadows on Ivan's shirt. The bottom half specifically. it's jagged, and if you tilt your head just a bit to the right:

those are jagged teeth. It's the shadow of an open jaw that is eating him from the bottom up. wtf. There's an alien directly on top of Ivan, and from the way it's framed, he's singing directly to that alien - and we as the audience are viewing this from the alien's pov, which is why he appears to be singing directly to us.

and then if you look at the full picture, he has what looks like business cards scattered all over him - 2 on his chest, 1 beside his head. the dark one is slightly underneath his jacket - it was on his chest before he raised his arm to sing. We know from Till's section that multiple aliens attend these, so presumably the business cards are from the aliens at his party.

and even more damning is the wording on the bottom left:

"He's a model son, and quite a profitable asset as well. - Unsha, 0214." wtf. profitable asset.

The picture is Ivan lying seductively on a sofa and singing with business cards scattered all over him, alien shadow hovering over him in a way that implies consumption of his lower half, and a blurb from his owner calling him a profitable asset.

Sex in exchange for work is huge in the entertainment industry, this is probably what's happening to Ivan here. From the way the cards are scattered on him and around him, it implies that he's been lying down before he got the cards, since they wouldn't be on him if he'd been given them before lying on the couch. and from the way one is positioned slightly under his jacket, we can assume that Ivan does not start singing or posing seductively until the alien gives him a business card - and from that shadow of a jaw eating him up from the bottom, its implied that they want more than just singing from him, aka sex.

Urak calls him a profitable asset in this. We know that Urak views Ivan as only a tool that can be used for business expansion, and that Ivan does his best to fulfil any task given by the aliens because that way he gets privileges and doesn't get hurt. From the business cards, presumably these aliens were handpicked by Urak as intended business associates that Ivan is expected to service and entertain - either by singing or by sexual favors - in exchange for business and work. And Ivan, who doesn't believe he can disobey the aliens, will not resist - hence Urak calling him a model son and profitable asset.

And then there's how Ivan has a habit in the videos of deliberately drawing attention to his own body (that hand motion he does in sweet dream for example), and his large fanbase and huge number of sponsorships, and modelling career as seen in Top 3 and him being a literal human billboard outfit in round 3, and also the wording in the song Nowhere that Ivan sings where he calls himself 'Smooth, flexible, Quite easy' (wtf man) that implies that Ivan knows his body and physical attractiveness is an asset and uses it to draw fans and work in, as per Unsha's orders of him being an asset that must be profitable. Which really just strengthens my theory of Ivan being SA'd by the business associates in the birthday artwork.

Also take a look at the comic following that picture:

(birthday boy singing and doing a job during his birthday lol, also 'aw yeah i'm off in ten minutes' and implied to going to find Till after is daww)

But also: Ivan is still singing, he's got enough business cards to create a card pyramid and still have extra left over - he's succeeded in entertaining the people that Unsha chose for business, hence why Unsha calls him a profitable asset. But Ivan is also undressed. He's taken his jacket off and rolled up his sleeves - a first for Ivan who's normally covered up and very dapper. Why would he take off his jacket. why would he roll up his sleeves. Why is his shirt looking so crumpled when it was ironed earlier. If he was just singing he'd have been standing up like Till was in front of the stage and still be looking dapper.

In keeping with the previous theory - heavily implied that he entertained his owner's business associates via sex in exchange for work contracts for his owner or himself, and this is to show the aftermath of that - he's put his clothes back on which is why its rumpled. And this happens often enough that he's managed to become unphased about it.

And its interesting that when he does leave and find Till, he has his jacket on properly. It's fully buttoned up, sleeves are back down, he looks even more formal than he did before the party. Ivan took the time to fix his own appearance before going off to find Till - presumably not to worry him if Till was awake.

And Ivan's first reaction is to unlock the muzzle so Till can breath properly, but then his reaction after is to stare intently at Till like so

This is an expression of an Ivan who is not happy about the state Till is in. Maybe he realised what happened to Till? Either way he is definitely considering something.

And after that, he does this:

Ivan straight up nuzzles Till's cheek. Not a kiss- a cheek to cheek nuzzle. Till is unconscious, there is no reason to do this for Till - ergo the nuzzle is Ivan comforting himself. Presumably as a way to comfort himself after the SA/Abuse both him and Till are implied to have gone through, or for Round 6 that will happen after this karaoke event - either way, Ivan comforts himself secretly by using Till after he makes sure Till is no longer muzzled.

And don't even get me started on the lyrics and how they go 'your icy lips' and 'consume me' and imagery that is very easy to relate to mourning and love but also sex during the flashback scenes. I do not have the energy to decipher it all but trust me it played a part in this assumption.

But anyways yeah - its heavily implied that Till got SA'd during the karaoke party as a form of alternate entertainment and revenge after he refused to sing for them, and that Ivan got SA'd on his birthday during his own karaoke party as part of exchanging sex for work to expand Unsha's business, and that they both sought comfort directly after - Till longing for escape via Mizi who is missing, Ivan seeking comfort by nuzzling Till while Till is asleep and can't reject him.

[kaedekolya]

alien stage "cure" lyric translations

i've been losing my mind over how poetic the korean lyrics are, so i tried translating them a little more closely to the original! there are so many implications and so much nuance that it's simply impossible to fully convey them in english, due to vocab and syntax differences, so there will be a ton of translation notes below. please cry over this tragic pair with me :")

[ disclaimer: i am in no way trying to imply that the official translations are subpar, because they're actually really good — it's difficult to convey the full extent of meaning while remaining concise enough for closed captions! i just want to share my own take on the original lyrics ^^ ]

r o u n d 6 — c u r e

Please permit me, till the tips of your hands Please permit me, till the tips of your feet I wish for you to melt me within your eyes I don't want to lose you I plead of you, inflict wounds upon me I plead of you, make it so that I am hurting Until not a single drop of me remains I dissolve in you Till these stars, which will crumble Buried within eternity, which will fade into a blur At the edge of your frigid lips Read me, please That's right, me Even the sharp words you gave me Even if they leave scratches beneath my eyes I wish they remain upon your tongue Even if everything is shattered, it's okay Now, please, look at my wounds Now, please, cure me Just so that my unease may be dampened So that I dissolve into you Above these nights, which will be drawn Screaming into the silence, which will collapse Within your pupils that gaze at me Drink me, please That's right, me This song without an end Towards each other, we dance Our story, buried within eternity Till these stars, which will crumble Buried within eternity, which will fade into a blur At the edge of your frigid lips Read me, please That's right, me Above these nights, which will be drawn Screaming into the silence, which will collapse Within your pupils that gaze at me Drink me, please That's right, me

[ translation notes below the cut. ]

━━━━⊱⋆⊰━━━━

translation notes

"please permit me"

허락해줘, please grant me permission; implying the person Till is singing to (henceforth Mizi, for brevity) has authority over him.

"I wish for you to..." vs "I wish..."

a slight difference in conjugation; Till wishes that Mizi will do that action for him, whereas Ivan simply wishes for things to be a certain way.

"I don't want to lose you"

놓치다, to lose something or someone by missing them or failing to catch them; implies less agency and control than "to let go."

"I plead of you, inflict wounds upon me" / "I plead of you, make it so that I am hurting"

부디, implying an earnest entreaty, a fervent plea. here, the conjugation has Till asking Mizi to give him wounds, and give him pain.

"I dissolve in you" vs "so that I dissolve into you"

there is no exact translation for 물들다 (conjugated into 물들어 and 물들게 in the lyrics), but picture this: watercolour paints soaking into a white canvas, permeating across it, imbuing it. difference in adpositions: Till says 너로, indicating "by" or "with," whereas Ivan says 네게 (너에게), indicating "to" or "towards". so for Till, Mizi is the colour and he is the canvas, whereas for Ivan, he is the colours that are spreading towards Till. difference in conjugations: Till says 물들어, in present tense and active voice, while Ivan says 물들게 [하다], to make a certain state happen (note that this is different from the ~ㄹ 게 conjugation that indicates future intention). Ivan is saying please notice my pain and heal it, so that I permeate into you, which would then quieten my unease.

"which will crumble" / "which will fade into a blur"

the ~ㄹ conjugation here is a future indicative tense; the action it describes will happen, the state it describes will come to be. 무너질, "will crumble;" to fall by crumbling, crumpling, caving in, breaking down. 흐려질, "will grow blurry;" i chose to translate this as the more poetic "fade into a blur."

"buried within eternity"

묻힌, from 묻히다, to be buried; this word can also mean "to be stained," giving the phrase an alternative meaning of "stained upon eternity."

"read me, please" / "that's right, me"

the official translation says "read my soul," which might indicate the meaning that the creators intended, but the original korean lyrics only says "me." "그래," which i translated as "that's right," can be used in many contexts with varying nuance; it is an acknowledgement and a simple, light agreement. in some contexts, it can be perfunctory, in others, it can be an acceptance.

"even if the sharp words you gave me" / "even if they leave scratches beneath my eyes"

here, Ivan is downplaying the extent of hurt that Till has inflicted upon him. Till may use sharp-edged language, but Ivan describes these words as being given to him, almost as if they are a gift, implying he treasures every word Till throws his way. the word used for "scratches" is often used to describe scrapes left by fingernails; shallow, surface-level wounds.

"even if everything is shattered, it's okay"

부숴, from 부수다, to break, smash, shatter. the official translation says "you can break me apart," which might reflect the meaning that the creators intended, but since the subject and object can be omitted in korean and still be grammatically correct, this sentence doesn't indicate the subject that is doing the breaking or the object that is being broken apart.

"now, please, look at my wounds" / "now, please, cure me"

the word for "wounds," 상처, can also be used to refer to scars, but i chose the former to indicate the open wounds that Ivan wishes Till will cure.

"just so that my unease may be dampened"

그저, "just," implying that Ivan doesn't want for much, he is only asking for this small and simple wish. 불안, unease. it's not quite as intense as "fears," though it can be an indicator of it; it's closer to worries or anxieties. 가라앉도록, from 가라앉다, to sink, to subside, to become subdued.

"above these nights, which will be drawn"

그려질, from 그려지다, to be drawn, like a sketch or painting.

"screaming into the silence, which will collapse"

the more accurate conjugation would be "screamed," but i went with "screaming" for a smoother flow. 쓰러질, "will collapse;" to fall by collapsing, fainting, passing out.

"within your pupils that gaze at me"

translating it as "eyes" would probably read smoother, but the korean lyrics use the specific word 눈동자, meaning the pupil of the eye.

"drink me, please"

the official translation says "consume me," but 마시다 (original lyric 마셔줘) means "drink." it's simple and fluid, not as forceful as "consume" or "swallow." once again, Ivan never uses harsh or violent language to describe Till's actions.

"this song without an end"

i intentionally chose this syntax to emphasise the lack of an end, and to more closely mirror that of the original. it can also be translated as "this endless song."

"towards each other, we dance"

향해, towards, indicating direction. the official translation, "face to face," can be inferred from the word, but i like the idea of them dancing towards each other, going towards each other, as if drawn together in each other's orbit. (also, the irony that in reality, it is only Ivan doing so, only Ivan going towards Till; Ivan sings this line, like he wishes it were the case, like he wishes it were mutual, even as he knows it is not.)

"our story, buried within eternity"

in the previous instance of the phrase "buried within eternity," the object is not specified. here, the clause is completed with 채, meaning "the state of." specifically, this line would be "our story, in the state of being buried within eternity."

[ and that's it — thank you for reading! please note that this is mostly a line-by-line translation, as the original lyrics are composed of distinct clauses that connect in meaning, but not in grammar. the official translation wove the clauses together in proper sentences, whereas my translation mirrors the scattered discontinuity of the korean lyrics. ]

[paragayyy]

in retrospect it is SO obvious that till was always projecting ivan onto mizi but i just wanna point out some of the discrepancies USING ONLY MV SCREENSHOTS.

in round 2 we get this sequence when he sings "my feelings are Error: no better options" which, i don't think you say that about someone you have a hopeless crush on. what do you mean "no better options," that sounds like you're settling or something. also error??? so you were focused on the wrong person, till??? hmm i wonder what this could be about...

and this one is when he sings "(you'll never know) i don't wanna stop" which... idk! maybe that ivan was never able to know how much he meant to till in his lifetime

anyways this is him fantasizing about mizi, right?? or at least it seems that way. however if you actually look closer, there are some… rather obvious issues…

EXHIBIT A:

her hair is wrong. mizi doesn’t have bangs like that. her bangs are more off to the side and not as straight cut across her forehead. also she just has more hair in general?? screenshots from r1

you know who DOES have bangs cut straight across his forehead? ivan. (r3 but also literally every single art of him)

EXHIBIT B:

this one is subtler, and also what got me thinking about this in the first place, but her eyelashes are also wrong. mizi doesn't have thick lashes like that.

r1 vs r2

as you can see, till draws mizi/visualizes mizi with really thick lashes, and all in a clump. in reality, though, her lashes are thinner, and spikier towards the edges. especially her bottom eyelashes.

do i even need to say who has eyelashes like that? it's one of his distinguishing features! (screenshot from wiege)

EXHIBIT C:

i feel like i'm beating a dead horse at this point, but anyways. the hands behind the back pose. mizi does not do that. IVAN DOES THAT. (more screenshots from wiege)

also, like, her general pose and body language in the “pass” frame are so so SO reminiscient of ivan. like if you remove the ponytail and glasses that is basically just ivan but with pink hair. till you are NOT subtle at all buddy…

anyways! i think most people are aware by now that till was projecting onto mizi, but maybe never noticed how far back the clues were. they were right there from the start. it's just that we got a little blinded from the story telling us that till has a crush on mizi. (or at least i did lol). alnst is one of those media where you notice new things every time you rewatch and it's really nice to pick up on them

[paragayyy]

ivan’s birthday art this year was definitely a bit of a surprise, and of course the fandom’s reaction was to go insane over this, because ivan is one of the most popular (and covered up) characters and so you get a lot of posts thirsting over him. (i am not immune to this. you can see his belly button actually)

the fact that he’s presented this way at all is super interesting to me though. it’s a subtle 4th wall break and i really like that it’s been consistent throughout the entire series: you, the viewer, are part of the audience. the segyein are objectifying and dehumanizing them, and so are you. YOU ARE PART OF THE AUDIENCE.

it is also extremely telling that they do this the MOST with ivan. he’s the fan favorite for a reason, both in-universe and in fandom. we like his aesthetic beauty, but the allure is part of his persona. and what i mean by “this” are the glamour magazine shots. because sua and luka are both pretty and have their own fanbases, but neither of them have art like this. sua doesn’t have any like this, even though we know she did advertisements while in anakt garden. luka has glamour shots of his own, but they’re much more detached/artistically oriented than ivan’s, with logos displayed both on the magazine and on himself too. ivan's a commodity, as it were. a lot more accessible than the lofty “prince of the stage” luka.

and ivan knows he’s hot and knows exactly how to wield that to his advantage. the short one page comic in the bday post & the anakt garden kit show him as seemingly a playboy type.

what makes this more interesting though, is that while he may be aware of how other people perceive him and how to use that to his advantage, he doesn’t actually believe himself to be all that attractive. like he knows objectively that people find him attractive but he personally doesn’t think that he is… which is probably one of the most human insecurities one could have, but he doesn’t have the words to understand that feeling.

but also… he has to. in this cutthroat world, he must play his role perfectly or else be discarded. he’s not like till, with his raw musical genius, or luka, who’s already won a season and the fanbase to support him. so of course he has to sell himself.

also, given everything about the karaoke scene, and also knowing that ivan has had r18 fantasies about till, i wonder how much he resents that 1) he allows this to happen to himself but also 2) the fact that he has desires towards till at all. like he just submits to the segyein, but he knows till wouldn't. and they don't understand what kissing is and their sex ed is basically only as far as a biological function, so i think this would just reinforce his warped perception of himself and his desires as perverse or disgusting. in his eyes, these desires make him no better than a segyein.

[paragayyy]

my personal hc is that ivan’s best dreams are him crawling into till’s veins and ceasing to exist and ivan’s worst nightmares are actually having sex with till. does that make sense

[paragayyy]

this was brought about by my own meta post abt ivan’s bday art actually, bc the karaoke scene in round 6 strongly implies that they were sexually assaulted, but where till fights back ivan just accepts it. which has SO many interesting implications, but it also got me thinking like… we know ivan has canonically had r18 thoughts about till before, and he was the one who found till after the karaoke scene in round 6, so i can’t help but wonder… given how little they know about human sexuality, i think ivan’s r18 fantasies would actually be his nightmares.

he already thinks of himself and his feelings as twisted and wrong, and while we might extrapolate that to place it in the context of the “predatory gay man” trope and deconstructing that, in and of itself ivan doesn’t think his feelings are wrong because he’s attracted to men. he thinks they’re wrong because they’re intense, obsessive and possessive, nothing like how his peers show their affection. and him having r18 fantasies would only reinforce that.

and so given the karaoke scene and all its disturbing implications, i wonder if, in ivan’s eyes, having those r18 fantasies would make him no better than a segyein. after all, that’s probably their only knowledge/experience of sexual encounters. as far as we know, they seem to understand human sexuality only on a biological level (they don’t know what kissing means, and the true face comic where the guy says men and women can’t be friends bc it leads to mating).

which is why i think that ivan’s worst nightmares would be actually having sex with till. who tops/bottoms is irrelevant here, it’s just the act of touching him in that manner that makes it so disturbing for him.

so then his best dreams are crawling into till’s veins and ceasing to exist/anything along that vein (ha) because well. paratise exists. i don’t think i need to explain further

[paragayyy]

my personal hc is that ivan’s best dreams are him crawling into till’s veins and ceasing to exist and ivan’s worst nightmares are actually having sex with till. does that make sense

[paragayyy]

this was brought about by my own meta post abt ivan’s bday art actually, bc the karaoke scene in round 6 strongly implies that they were sexually assaulted, but where till fights back ivan just accepts it. which has SO many interesting implications, but it also got me thinking like… we know ivan has canonically had r18 thoughts about till before, and he was the one who found till after the karaoke scene in round 6, so i can’t help but wonder… given how little they know about human sexuality, i think ivan’s r18 fantasies would actually be his nightmares.

he already thinks of himself and his feelings as twisted and wrong, and while we might extrapolate that to place it in the context of the “predatory gay man” trope and deconstructing that, in and of itself ivan doesn’t think his feelings are wrong because he’s attracted to men. he thinks they’re wrong because they’re intense, obsessive and possessive, nothing like how his peers show their affection. and him having r18 fantasies would only reinforce that.

and so given the karaoke scene and all its disturbing implications, i wonder if, in ivan’s eyes, having those r18 fantasies would make him no better than a segyein. after all, that’s probably their only knowledge/experience of sexual encounters. as far as we know, they seem to understand human sexuality only on a biological level (they don’t know what kissing means, and the true face comic where the guy says men and women can’t be friends bc it leads to mating).

which is why i think that ivan’s worst nightmares would be actually having sex with till. who tops/bottoms is irrelevant here, it’s just the act of touching him in that manner that makes it so disturbing for him.

so then his best dreams are crawling into till’s veins and ceasing to exist/anything along that vein (ha) because well. paratise exists. i don’t think i need to explain further

[paragayyy]

ANOTHER ADDENDUM BC I CAN'T STOP THINKING ABOUT THEM: it's not canonically confirmed the way ivan's is, but i think till's best dreams are r18 fantasies about ivan.

i've seen this explored in fic sometimes, where till is fantasizing about mizi and it eventually morphs into ivan, and i really really like those kinds of fics bc !!! that is SUCH a good depiction of how i think till's fantasies work.

but ALSO, because ivan is so confusing but also seems to hold all the "power" in their relationship (he's a teacher's pet, he gets privileges nobody else does, he's popular among their classmates, etc), i think a LOT of till's subconscious fantasies would be a reversal of that dynamic of sorts. this is further supported by a patreon-exclusive comic which depicts one of his dreams, actually, and in that one he's the "king" of anakt and ivan is his loyal knight who accidentally (?) kidnaps mizi bc till expressed an interest in her (i am paraphrasing here i also don't remember exactly how it goes sorry).

anyways all that to say is, i think he would be absolutely fucking thrilled to wield that kind of power over ivan. honestly i think if till knew how much effect he had on ivan that would have changed a lot but that's an aside. it's also just like, ivan's so perfectly made up and composed all the time that i think till would want to mess him up and ruin that composure. especially bc ivan only acts that way (bratty and childish) with him. they stopped fighting sometime after getting hit with puberty bc ivan outgrew till and worried about his own strength (so ivan was the one who put a stop to it), but i think till definitely fantasizes about it still. it's a fine line between bloodlust and sexual desire after all.

also, his crush on mizi is a childish idolization of her; she's his muse and goddess, but also someone who's too pure for the messy world they inhabit. so i think this also applies to his fantasies; till wouldn't dare to have many fantasies about her, especially of this nature. it's too "disgusting" to associate with her. but ivan... he's just as messy as till is.

and like till's dragged off for punishment often, a lot of which seems to be solitary confinement, and he's not exactly popular in class either, so i think skinship and physical contact/closeness would be very important for him. he has abandonment issues from his separation from io, but also a loss of physical contact, especially gentler ones. also for all that they never could understand each other in life, both of them always wanted to, and sex and its inherent nature of "revealing" would be appealing to till i think.

AND FINALLY, please just look at scars and remember everything comics. hallucivan shuts up till via kissing him, and shoves his hand up till's shirt, and whispers "weren't you the one who wanted to talk to me?" very provocatively and just behaves very sensually in general. but that's till's imagination of ivan. real ivan didn't do ANYTHING of that sort until he was literally about to DIE. ivan may be a yearner and he may have r18 fantasies but he is also the most passive man ever like he was ready to take that with him to the grave and honestly succeeded at that for the most part.

the top/bottom here is also irrelevant, the important point is that till desires ivan in a much more physical manner than ivan does to till i think. this is also why ivantill are freak4freak. ivan's obsessive, possessive nature of his thoughts are a lot more overtly shown, but till is equally possessive if not more. his just manifest themselves differently, and he himself was also deliberately ignoring them for most of his life (until ivan dies). but subconsciously till always thought of ivan as his, because for all his mixed signals, ivan only acted that way around till.

[allebooklover]

Agreeing with all of this, but to me it’s also reinforced by Ivan’s character song Nowhere, which while in general is very maudlin and about how he feels hopeless, despairful and resigned to his situation, also has lines like these according to the alien stage wiki translation:

‘1st stanza:

That’s just the kind of kid he is, so laugh.

Laugh, because he can’t do anything,

No one cares about someone like him,

there’s nowhere in the world for him to rest,

That’s just how it is.

2nd stanza:

He’s smooth, flexible, quite easy,

Just go past it like it doesn’t bother you.

It’s nothing, shake it off and stand tall,

Again, it’s nothing, shake it off and stand tall,

Like nothing ever happened.”

Which could be referring to Till, who Ivan views as strong against the circumstances by standing up to the aliens abuse repeatedly, and how Ivan views him - a person who is powerless and uncared for by the others around him due to his vibrant nature, and how Ivan tries to pretend the abuse Till goes through doesn’t bother him.

But if interpreted as Ivan talking about himself by using third person— which is much more likely since Till is not likely to be described as smooth, flexible and easy—paints an interesting light on how he views himself. It implies Ivan views himself as someone who is helpless, uncared for, and doesn’t belong anywhere since that is the way life is. How he copes by pretending what the aliens are thinking or viewing him as doesn’t matter or affect him.

And the 2nd stanza, which refers to how he interacts with the aliens, uses ‘he’s smooth, flexible, quite easy” — all of which in a social context could be taken to mean that Ivan is suave, adaptable, low maintenance and approachable. Someone who is charming and takes easily to tasks without complaining, like how he obeys aliens in exchange for privileges. But the words chosen are also words that can be used in a sexual context—‘smooth’ referring to someone capable of seduction, ‘flexible’ referring to body flexibility, and ‘quite easy’ being someone who is very easy to persuade into doing sexual activities. Combined with the rest of the lyrics, it could be taken to mean that Ivan has gotten sexually assaulted to the point where he has a reputation for being easy to coerce into sex amongst the aliens, and is trying not to let it bother him.

(Strengthened by other lyrics containing imagery referring to waking up, laments of ‘it always happens to me’, and ‘that rotten tooth’, repetitions of ‘staining with blood’ — if interpreted as an admission of being SA’d it genuinely does feel like Ivan is admitting to having been SA’d multiple times by the aliens but resigned due to his own powerlessness.)

In canon lore, we know Ivan resorts to fawning - he appeases the aliens to avoid harm, he doesn’t say no to whatever they ask him to do. He accomplishes any tasks they give to him in exchange for favors and privileges. This reflects his relationship with his owner— Unsha is an alien with criminal connections that treats Ivan more as an investment than as a pet, valued only for his abilities than as a person. So long as Ivan performs well and does as he’s told, Ivan gets privileges such as no collar, good food etc. It’s what allowed him to gain a huge fan base and a ton of sponsorships — it’s all business via Unsha’s goals.

In real life, the entertainment industry has a whole long list of scandals where producers, executives, agents etc agree to provide work or support to the victim in exchange for sexual favors. Ivan’s in the entertainment industry with a ton of sponsorships — we even see him modeling in the top 3 video. That, in combination with the huge fan base, implies the aliens largely see Ivan as desirable and aesthetically pleasing enough to go on screen.

It is entirely possible that Ivan got more than a few offers of getting contracts in exchange for sexual favors and that Unsha, who views Ivan as a tool to expand his business more than a person, agreed to it. And Ivan, whose trauma reaction to the aliens is appeasement in the hopes of not getting hurt, felt that he had no choice but to go along with it, which leads to the 2nd stanza from the song Nowhere above—a quiet admission that he got coerced into sex in exchange for contracts to the point where there are rumors flying around about it, which he feels he cannot stop or do anything about except for pretending it doesn’t bother him.

Of course, it’s all just theory. However:

1) Ivan will accomplish any task that is given to him by the aliens because he does not feel he can say no to them. Also bc privileges.

2) Ivan is shown to be very, very passive around the aliens due to the awareness that they are the ones in control. Ivan does not feel he has agency when it comes to the aliens. Which means if something inappropriate happens he does not feel he has the right to resist.

3) his owner views him purely as a tool to expand business. Ivan’s feelings do not matter in this equation. Sex for contracts could potentially be viewed as a suitable method for expanding business.

4) entertainment business! Modeling! All of the ‘sex in exchange for work’ scandals in real life!

5) the way that 2nd stanza is phrased man

6) How did he and Luka even learn about kissing as a form of affection when it’s not part of Anakt gardens teachings. How did Sua. They’re all seen as desirable by the aliens and confirmed to have been working to earn a fanbase before series start, it’s entirely possible that they all learnt it via aliens being inappropriate towards them.

7) Ivan’s backstory as a kid taken from the slums like a stray means he knows what it is like to go without. Ergo he has motivation to not return back to those conditions, which increases his likelihood to fawn to the aliens and not say no to anything they ask in fear of returning to said conditions.

8) the official art has him framed as a thirst trap the most often (he deliberately draws attention to his body in sweet dreams). And if we look at that official art of him on his adoption day where he’s lying on the couch with business cards scattered all over him, shirt rumpled, looking up at the camera — out of universe it’s fanservice for fans, in universe it is very interesting way of implying how he sold himself for business and why I started thinking that in the first place.

9) black outfit from round 3 js genuinely him using his own body as a walking bill board sign for the sponsors he’s gotten, wtf.

It’s probably not canon. But taking in all the above information and previous posts made by other ops into consideration, Ivan is like, disturbingly the most vulnerable out of the Anakt garden quartet to being predated on sexually in the industry and by other aliens due to his appeasement tactics, backstory, appearance and owner.

All of which is to say that my headcanon is Ivan got SA’d by the aliens multiple times over the course of his life in exchange for work contracts and favors as and when approved by his boss, which amplifies his low self esteem and belief that his feelings are shallow and dirty, and increases his passiveness on acting on his feelings towards Till because he associates sex with feeling powerless and with aliens, and he can’t act on it unless Till takes initiative because even though he’s fine with roughhousing and verbal jabs Ivan is not ok with taking things that far, but Ivan also believes Till will never take initiative due to his crush on Mizi, so Ivan is left feeling resigned to things and full of pining.

[o66k0l]

happee birday till

[crustyfloor]

Sua exploiting Mizi's naivety was a recurring theme through her deliberate coddling, ALNST would eventually elaborate on them objectifying each other for comfort-- Mizi using Sua as an outlet to project her feelings onto bc she liked Sua's weak body and submissive behavior and Sua using Mizi as escapism by seeing her as a fragile object to be protected rather than a equal partner to her... seeing zomst reinterpret that more overtly in Sua specifically staring at Mizi's body at times (dumbstruck or no) as the only one who knows who the real Mizi she loves is is so djfhuyghdn (bc of the angle vivinos was going in towards Mizi being seen marketed as super sexy and scandalous by the industry which is never what Mizi wanted and I think she really tried to take some control over that image during their last argument by using unhealthy coping mechanisms that Sua disapproved of) so when Mizi is this helpless and Sua essentially sees a second chance at mending their fractured relationship she does take advantage of that fragility in Mizi that she recognizes

I think it's interesting that Sua sees how Mizi was used and abused by the industry because of how appealing her body was, and she revels in getting Mizi away from all that's distancing them, so Mizi is hers again. She makes a desperate attempt to keep them together; she can't bear for them to be apart, but even now, Mizi is still being sold for parts by an upper class that is exploiting them both.

She has a hand in perpetuating their suffering for a second time because of an ideal she has in preserving Mizi's untouchable purity and happiness as an idol and their strength as a duo that was taken from them when only Mizi got to become an idol . I like how this differs from the OG a little because Sua is always meant to follow Mizi wherever she goes, and seeing Mizi get angry at her and leave scared her of courseee she'd choose to become a zombie to keep Mizi with her again. Now they're like a singular unit that's as codependent on each other as Sua was dependent on Mizi when they were just normal humans. We get to see them get to live out their ideal in that underground ring while looking happy, even if they feel pain . It's like experiencing karma/myclematis again, oh how these two are so into escapism

[crustyfloor]

Translation for Ache is free on ze patreon

The dialogue of "Ache" is so good I really loved Mizi's emotions. I'd expect their upbringing to be like the co-dependent bond Mizisua had in ALNST, especially with this Mizi, who was, at the time, a child living with domestic abuse and thus had to rely on Sua for emotional support and a place to live.

Mizi pushed back against Sua so much here; in ALNST she sort of leaned into it for comfort, but this Mizi has so many rough edges before she allows herself to immediately latch onto someone. In ALNST, she latched onto the first person she saw that she connected with, and now she's too scared to heavily depend on anyone in this universe. And it reveals Sua's projection of the Mizi she loves and is obsessed with in comparison to the Mizi in front of her. Even when Sua tries to pacify Mizi, Mizi pushes her away and argues because she's thrown off by Sua's passivity and how obviously she's set on Mizi. Mizi's so self-loathing right then that she can't trust Sua's intentions, but she can't also understand why Sua is so intent on the good in her to the point where she'd allow Mizi to take and take from her, even remarking that she doesn't want to feel like she's being kept like some house pet, and thats why Sua's doing her all these favors.

Mizi immediately sees Sua's words as they are and it makes her uneasy to just... have the burden taken from her by someone she doesn't trust yet, Sua sees it as a challenge to prove her devotion is true

The way Sua IMMEDIATELY jumps to suggesting Mizi can assert herself and hit her however she likes shows me just how desperate Sua is, even to self-destructive means, to have Mizi. It's just emblematic of the way Sua's character understands love; it really doesn't hide how much Sua is desperate to keep Mizi even when she insists Mizi has control in the dynamic and she's doing it out of love (at least thats how it looks as a lonely child reaches out to another pained child before it becomes the tender and selfish possessiveness of the adult Sua)-- but I think in a way she still tends to show how she really disregards Mizi and that triggers Mizi's resistance, it feels like a mockery because she can't trust Sua here yet and Sua is endlessly seeing her with rose-tinted glasses, but in ALNST its because Mizi was heavily repressed and Sua didn't understand what she'd been through, she's just seeing the ideal of Mizi- two different situations, but the core of Sua's selfish and messed-up blind devotion leads to her need to control Mizi and coddle her, when she's really not seeing Mizi at all because she's fixated on how she's thought Mizi was for the longest time, how much she was comforted by Mizi's existence

(I like the detail of her warm gaze becoming more imploring in like a split second to show how needy Sua is, as she wants to control Mizi's perception so she doesn't go away)

. I think it was clear in My fragile god fading fast too, even though Sua let Mizi get comfort in feeling powerful over her-- they were enabling each other's bad habits and coping mechanisms. Sua was enabling Mizi because she knew she was a safe space for Mizi, the only comfort in the world that somehow unconditionally saw only the best in her and also accepted all her moments of violence and cruelty. It's because Sua loves like that that she embraces whatever Mizi gives her; she'd allow Mizi to do anything to her to stay together. Mind you, this obsession manifested itself in such a cruel and selfish form in ZOMST when Sua damns them to zombie stage just so they can be together.

this AU is very good at showing Sua's enabling and toxic love. I really liked it when Sua went on and on about how much Mizi was being too hard on herself, and that Sua was the one who understood her best. ...Mizi just doesn't see herself the way Sua sees her, and she could prove to Mizi that she could be her safe haven if she just let her in and let Sua comfort her... they could share each other's suffering. Mizi obviously wants connection; she wants the comfort and the acceptance. It wears down her guarded demeanor from there because she accepts Sua's offering, a route where she can escape herself and not have to confront anything, give control of her perception to Sua while taking in the comfort of Sua's unconditional embrace

The theme is so interesting, this is Sua's movie and her idea of a good ending, yeah, the idea of her thinking selfish love like this led her to her good ending because she kept Mizi by her side and embraced her wholly and unconditionally is evident, and in their backstory, it's easy to see why they were so dependent on each other, and Sua was so eager to become a zombie with Mizi; she's literally in love with the idea of being so connected to Mizi no matter what. Becoming distant when they were growing into adults killed her in that way; exerting control like that one more time by controlling their fate is something she's always done in both AUS. Again I like the focus on that aspect of her its so good

[crustyfloor]

Translation for Ache is free on ze patreon

The dialogue of "Ache" is so good I really loved Mizi's emotions. I'd expect their upbringing to be like the co-dependent bond Mizisua had in ALNST, especially with this Mizi, who was, at the time, a child living with domestic abuse and thus had to rely on Sua for emotional support and a place to live.

Mizi pushed back against Sua so much here; in ALNST she sort of leaned into it for comfort, but this Mizi has so many rough edges before she allows herself to immediately latch onto someone. In ALNST, she latched onto the first person she saw that she connected with, and now she's too scared to heavily depend on anyone in this universe. And it reveals Sua's projection of the Mizi she loves and is obsessed with in comparison to the Mizi in front of her. Even when Sua tries to pacify Mizi, Mizi pushes her away and argues because she's thrown off by Sua's passivity and how obviously she's set on Mizi. Mizi's so self-loathing right then that she can't trust Sua's intentions, but she can't also understand why Sua is so intent on the good in her to the point where she'd allow Mizi to take and take from her, even remarking that she doesn't want to feel like she's being kept like some house pet, and thats why Sua's doing her all these favors.

Mizi immediately sees Sua's words as they are and it makes her uneasy to just... have the burden taken from her by someone she doesn't trust yet, Sua sees it as a challenge to prove her devotion is true

The way Sua IMMEDIATELY jumps to suggesting Mizi can assert herself and hit her however she likes shows me just how desperate Sua is, even to self-destructive means, to have Mizi. It's just emblematic of the way Sua's character understands love; it really doesn't hide how much Sua is desperate to keep Mizi even when she insists Mizi has control in the dynamic and she's doing it out of love (at least thats how it looks as a lonely child reaches out to another pained child before it becomes the tender and selfish possessiveness of the adult Sua)-- but I think in a way she still tends to show how she really disregards Mizi and that triggers Mizi's resistance, it feels like a mockery because she can't trust Sua here yet and Sua is endlessly seeing her with rose-tinted glasses, but in ALNST its because Mizi was heavily repressed and Sua didn't understand what she'd been through, she's just seeing the ideal of Mizi- two different situations, but the core of Sua's selfish and messed-up blind devotion leads to her need to control Mizi and coddle her, when she's really not seeing Mizi at all because she's fixated on how she's thought Mizi was for the longest time, how much she was comforted by Mizi's existence

(I like the detail of her warm gaze becoming more imploring in like a split second to show how needy Sua is, as she wants to control Mizi's perception so she doesn't go away)

. I think it was clear in My fragile god fading fast too, even though Sua let Mizi get comfort in feeling powerful over her-- they were enabling each other's bad habits and coping mechanisms. Sua was enabling Mizi because she knew she was a safe space for Mizi, the only comfort in the world that somehow unconditionally saw only the best in her and also accepted all her moments of violence and cruelty. It's because Sua loves like that that she embraces whatever Mizi gives her; she'd allow Mizi to do anything to her to stay together. Mind you, this obsession manifested itself in such a cruel and selfish form in ZOMST when Sua damns them to zombie stage just so they can be together.

this AU is very good at showing Sua's enabling and toxic love. I really liked it when Sua went on and on about how much Mizi was being too hard on herself, and that Sua was the one who understood her best. ...Mizi just doesn't see herself the way Sua sees her, and she could prove to Mizi that she could be her safe haven if she just let her in and let Sua comfort her... they could share each other's suffering. Mizi obviously wants connection; she wants the comfort and the acceptance. It wears down her guarded demeanor from there because she accepts Sua's offering, a route where she can escape herself and not have to confront anything, give control of her perception to Sua while taking in the comfort of Sua's unconditional embrace

The theme is so interesting, this is Sua's movie and her idea of a good ending, yeah, the idea of her thinking selfish love like this led her to her good ending because she kept Mizi by her side and embraced her wholly and unconditionally is evident, and in their backstory, it's easy to see why they were so dependent on each other, and Sua was so eager to become a zombie with Mizi; she's literally in love with the idea of being so connected to Mizi no matter what. Becoming distant when they were growing into adults killed her in that way; exerting control like that one more time by controlling their fate is something she's always done in both AUS. Again I like the focus on that aspect of her its so good

[crustyfloor]

A new pop-up store dropped for ALIEN STAGE's 2nd anniversary and wow. It's so sick.

It's Interesting what exactly these experiments are focusing on and monitoring.

Instrument practice

I found it interesting earlier that Till was so tame, more so than he usually is when he's going through experiments, but music, and making music is what he loves doing, So he was fully in his element here. This was probably the only thing he was made to do by the aliens that he at least tolerated.

(Additionally, judging by his collar (orange), he was at least calm. maybe he just isn't fazed anymore.)

//Side note, that head contraption looks familiar BUT this most likely isn't related at least i hope

(It puts me at ease, at least..)

Dance practice

This surprised me, but I suppose Mizi needed more skills.

She looks very startled here, and nervous(?) +It looks like she's doing this while singing. And with that face covering I assume this was a test monitoring her dance balance, precision, etc. At first, I did think it was odd, "Why would Shine put her through that" But alas I was reminded that even though Mizi is the flower of the group she was never untouchable, to Shine, this was the equivalent of teaching your dog to sit and stay.

(seeing this it reminded me of those scenes in movies where the people are dancing, and the music gets faster and faster until they fall. I wonder if she was doing through something similar to that)

Singing practice (?)

Similar to Till she also looks quite calm outwardly, if the machine around her neck is an iteration of the collars they have, then this process wasn't something she liked, or given how intense this experiment looks, this was a test of high-pressure to ensure she always stayed calm during performances (?). Then again this could also be a posture practice given all the structure focused on maintaining her position.

(What I believe was another form of this test was shown before so I think so)

(With her hands in a praying stance I wonder if she was praying to herself or singing a religious song (sweet dream?) It's also interesting that the machinery around her looks like a halo, and she looks so...angelic? holy?)

Image making practice

By image making, I think they made Ivan replicate expressions with his face. Whether this process was painful for him or not...I'm not sure. But it looked visibly uncomfortable, maybe that was the point. (His expression, even in this circumstance is so dubious..)

Ivan, among other things, needed to have a spotless appearance to be successful, his image was a priority given his skills were certainly guaranteed.

I assume the aliens eventually took note of his lack of expression, in the real world this can be a detriment to one's career, so the Aliens had to ensure quality was perfect. (To a more...dedicated level)

Superiority test

'Superiority test' Is very vague.

HyunA is very calm here too, likely sedated in that water with all the tablets on her. I guess this was a test to get an idea of a pet human's strengths and weaknesses, endurance, and temperament to compare and contrast them with others, testing who is more viable for Alien stage?

Another interesting, and sad part about this is that HyunWoo was there, watching his sister through her experiments.

(Also, it looks like both of her legs are normal, no alien leg yet.)

Heart rate variability

And finally, the most visceral of them all. The wording 'variability' makes this all the more sickening, the Aliens were testing his heart hours, testing it at different rates, speeds, and states. And he was in agony the entire time. Even the way he's clutching his chest, it gives me chills. This would've been a completely harmless test in a normal setting, as something quite similar to this can be performed efficiently in real life. But he's being tortured in the process.

This is one of the first times we've ever seen Luka's face so truly clear and unprotected, (understandably so.) He's even crying.

[crustyfloor]

Ivan is a fundamentally childish person, so seeing Till relive three different versions of the Ivan he's grown up with, so Ivan's younger self can teach him how Ivan's adult mind operates is such a interesting concept-- It's especially interesting when we really get down to it, Till *couldn't* get a proper read on Ivan after the meteor shower and therefore couldn't understand the shift that caused the perpetual state of unresolved tension in their dynamic. Then they both jumped to conclusions about e/o, even without malicious intent in mind. Till was ignorant of the reality of the situation because he couldn't yet reconcile with the visceral confusion and shared resentment with *what* Ivan meant to him, so what they both needed was for the other to be honest

(Which becomes increasingly obvious when you see how Till interacts with the other two Ivans the older they get. little tell-tale signs that, after the meteor shower, it was more difficult for them to return to that previous state)

It's all about confrontation, acceptance, and growth for Till. So once these weeds have surfaced, he remembers the meteor shower and knows there are many things he's been leaving unsaid for Ivan since they were young. It becomes essential to force Till to return to the root of everything to remember

So of course, the youngest Ivan, who best reflects Ivan's overly candid behavior, immaturity, and sensitivity without the mask, is truly the first one to get through to Till. Even when he wasn't initially ready to think about it, Till intuitively and very quickly caught on to the hidden meaning without Ivan even having to say what he actually meant outright

And I love that there was no instant resolution yet because of this, because there are levels to Till's avoidance and Ivantill's mutual misunderstanding. In the next scene, Till was about to have a breakthrough here and hesitated just because he saw Ivan's face. It got serious for me then.... because imagine that sequence of events, but it happens again and again for years until they're adults, and throughout that proper communication can't even be forced out of them because they constantly stick to their preconceived notions of each other, can't be caught dead practicing vulnerability if they've already been burned before and can only see the surface level, can't confront the doubt without backing away...yeah... Till had to ruminate on it for 7 years and come to terms with one of his biggest fears, being alone, silent, and vulnerable.

Ivan thought his actions would have no emotional effect because he thought that Till would never understand him or care for him because he didn't choose him, but thats what makes Till's resolution with Ivan and acknowledgement of Ivan's hidden childish inner self that wasn't properly healed but suppressed and deeply scarred as cathartic as it was, so well executed and loving the way it all revolves back to that imo -- they were both incredibly immature and hurt people and understanding that in the way Till did was so important

[crustyfloor]

Isn't this scene Till expressing that he wanted Ivan to show he cared in the past? Till resents the way his hallucination of Ivan regards him so nonchalantly with teasing in the moment when he's in pain, it reminds me of their relationship in Anakt Garden (think back to the cafeteria scene in Cure!!!). Which is why I think it correlates to something deeper (walk with me..)

After the meteor shower, I imagine Ivan changed how he approached Till based on how he thought Till saw him after taking Till returning to the garden as a rejection of Ivan's presence as a whole, Ivan decided to stop fighting with him, to stop being as imposing and to start lingering in the shadows, just enough to linger without being "greedy". But Till still wanted Ivan in his life-- he wanted Ivan to care about him just as much as he cared about Ivan, but Till didn't know how to ask and never said anything, not after the meteor shower, not ever until now.

Fan TL of Remember Everything by @/ka_akeakamai

edit: I added these panels later since they affirm my idea more efficiently than the official translation

That's how I see the "For the first time in my life, I complained" dialogue-- now Till is finally admitting how he felt during those decades of silent denial and complacency after his and Ivan's silent fallout and the complications of their strained relationship. "I wanted you to show you cared, why didn't you. Why do you confuse me."

But Ivan only did much of that (checking on Till, taking off his collars, watching over him, keeping thoughts to himself now) in secret, I think that's what they both wanted, they wanted the other to show they cared, that's why Ivan would have actually had a significant reaction and even changed if Till showed him that he thought about him with the way he drew him. But they didn't. They were quiet, avoidant, they confused each other , and mislead each other into thinking of the other the wrong way, yet they stuck together regardless because they always gravitated back to each other, imagine how weird that is for them?

It's just a shame that Ivan and Till were blinded by their own pains and doubts to actually see each other and have an honest emotional connection, that's why Till says, "I never knew back then you felt that way [lonely] too." he realizes the feeling was mutual after all, they both longed for similar things, they were both scared, they just couldn't read each other, didn't know what to do

[crustyfloor]

On Till’s (general emotional journey), his place in the karmic cycle occurring in Alien Stage’s ending, how he subverts the cruelty of self-punishment into a journey of personal growth, self-reflection, and gentle closure

And the reconciliation with Ivan that he never got to have

——

(Pretty long post )

All Panels from the "Remember everything" comic are a fan translation by @/ka_akeakamai

All panels from the "Scars" comic are a fan translation by @/manipuIatedstar

Ivan and Till's relationship has miscommunication and misunderstanding threaded into every aspect of their story. It eventually becomes tragic and pitiful when you realize they would've been so different if only they were more honest and understood each other better, especially with the examples that will be shown in this post

This foundation set for their relationship then planted the seeds for the actions that will induce a consequence (for Till's karma), as is the principle applied to the karmic cycle that says every action will come with a consequence [ a search for atonement]

The meteor shower was the seed, the "catalyst" for Ivan and Till's earliest development and dynamic shift, one of the "causes"-- when Till turned back and ran to the garden without a word Ivan didn't notice his hesitance, to put it into Ivan's perspective, he internalized this moment by assuming the situation would be better off if he no longer imposed his feelings on Till like before [Ivan's emotional expression has always been shown in the way he provoked Till or stuck by his side constantly,] If Till really preferred going back to the garden where he would continue to suffer just to be with Mizi-- to Ivan it proved that he wasn't truly wanted, he didn't mean as much to Till as he might've hoped for. (In short, Ivan took it as a rejection of his feelings as a whole.)

In the aftermath, Ivan didn't dissapear, didn't stop loving Till, but he did change the way he approached him, he began creating emotional distance from Till in certain, calculated ways [Back to the way Ivan shows his affection, the way he started subtly withdrawing, stopping Till from fighting with him and starting to show concern in secret and looking out for Till when he wouldn't notice was Ivan closing himself off from Till and shutting him out, especially as they got older, Ivan learned to become more evasive, like a shield.] So he started repressing his emotions, and voluntarily accepted staying in Till's shadow ("just enough to stay without being greedy")

Till wasn't being intentionally cruel; he was also just scared, scared of abandoning Mizi to escape and face the unknown outside of his comfort zone. We never do see Till confronting Ivan during or after the meteor shower because what Ivan and Till do when they fall out is not communicate, they just barely float around each other for a moment until they come back together. In this case, because Ivan wouldn't bring it up, Till didn't bring it up either. Till's emotional response to what he can't understand or cannot reconcile with almost always circles back to avoidance and denial [for instance, the gist of Mi Vida Loca is Till's avoidance and fears, and denial of the reality, all because he cannot find himself letting go in the face of rejection or fear, but all he wants to do is keep loving and chasing regardless]

Till isn't adept at handling social situations, certainly not feelings. He's especially careless about his interpersonal relationships, even though he cherishes them deeply, but his mind is always somewhere else, or he's too absorbed in his music to really see it, and he always finds himself too afraid to make the first move, always waiting or yearning or keeping to himself

Really, he's kind of simple-minded -> Till resolves the situation by not confronting/handling it because of the shame he had [for years, I imagine he grew to suppress these memories and avoid them until the present day]. Hell, maybe he didn't even have the words to explain it without a proper understanding of himself or Ivan or emotional maturity.

At the end of the day, neither he nor Ivan said a word about it; they didn't stop being together all the time, but something about their previous dynamic changed. And it didn't fix a thing

For years, Ivan and Till functioned like that, close but always circling around each other, avoidance, suppression, ignorance, but with Till, I wonder if there was an implicit trust that they would always be together anyway (it really just reminds me that he didn't anticipate going up against Ivan, and even post-cure, Ivan is always meant to return to him)

Years later, once the consequence is played out through Ivan's death, Till is once again grappling with denial and avoidance as he is alone to process all of this at once. The guilt and the suppressed feelings come back to him. During round 6, Till wanted to escape this exact scenario; he was fully ready to forfeit his life to Ivan to avoid living with all the failure and sorrow in his life, but [Till's "karma"] is being forced to acknowledge the reality, face it for the first time anyway without his defenses, even the loss he couldn't handle

This karma of his was innately set up to be a cycle of self-blame and self-destruction out of grief and trauma. If he chose to keep running and avoiding confrontation. His guilt would always be there, tormenting him, and so Ivan would never disappear. Till would end up staying stuck, walking in circles because of the past, and finding relief in causing wounds to keep things at bay. Worst case scenario, he would've destroyed himself to death

But here's the part where I believe he subverts "expectations" or breaks the typical flow of this cycle before it has the chance to break him

A rebellion member is killed on a mission, and the stray bullet injures Till. Of course, Till would feel upset for the life of another, especially since he couldn't do anything for them, but I'm almost certain that this scene was meant to play out as a reflection of Till's guilt and fears. It's to convey that Till is still haunted by these scenarios where he's helpless to the situation, people die all around him, and there's nothing he can even do about it. His guilt and self-loathing are endlessly eating at him, mocking him (Just the same way his hallucination of Ivan would say, "look at you, you're nothing but a burden." [Till hates feeling useless, pitifully weak]

Till breaks down to Isaac, it's implied more directly that Till's guilt over that incident is tied back to how tormented he is by the past. Till would continue to crush his own heart over his guilt, if Till doesn't move on and forgive himself, he's just going to continue to suffer and hate himself for the rest of his life over and over again, he'll continue to be reminded, that's just the cycle of trauma, [and that is how self-hatred plays out in these little ways, repetitively. Because of the person's perceived wrongdoings]

It could've been entirely unlikely that Till would've escaped this on his own if not for Isaac's advice-- he's told he should let go of the past and move forward, but Till knows in his heart that he doesn't want to let go, even though he wants to be freed, he doesn't want to forget it, it's all he's ever known for the majority of his life. That's why Ivan stays. If Till meant what he said by wanting Ivan to leave ages ago, Ivan would have been gone, but there's something within Till that is keeping him here. (Something unsaid, that he and 'Ivan' both know. Questions that have come back to the surface, being suppressed again and again out of fear, linger after all this time. I believe that's what pushes Till to really "confront" Ivan)

As I explained in another post, Till gets agitated when "Ivan" is casually checking on him and making the situation seem more mundane and casual than it actually is, just like he would do in the Garden.

Rewinding back to their days in Anakt Garden, after the meteor shower, it is my speculation that Till had many instances where he felt confused and irritated with Ivan for his behavior. Ivan was not good at calculating how Till would actually take these actions, even if they were small and "mellowed out." And Till, for his part, grew accustomed to ignoring Ivan and easily biting back what he actually felt behind bitter curses

When Till is reminded of this exact scenario in the present, he's sincerely upset and wonders why Ivan would never just ask if he was alright, ever. What does the hallucination of Ivan do...he deflects the question just like Ivan would have in the garden

Beneath this, in Till's words, there is a want, there is the deep-seated feeling of waiting for the people around him to ask about his feelings, to reach out first because he was a lonely child, he craved understanding and people, but was too scared to ask for it. But when Ivan always stuck around him and bothered him but didn't ask him about anything, he was left wondering why Ivan didn't care about him more, he was left questioning if Ivan ever did, and there it is, the core misunderstanding of each other

[Just like the behavior Till's hallucination of Ivan exhibits by avoiding elaboration and deflecting, this is the reason why Ivan and Till never properly connected with each other.]

Ivan and Till don't talk; Ivan is stubbornly resolute in his mindset, and Till remains stuck in place with apprehension and simple ignorance [A simple-minded guy at the time]. If they're left to their devices, they ultimately come to misguided conclusions about each other. Like Ivan not caring, Till not caring, then they never ask each other

How is Till simple-minded? pt.2 -> Well, he's not dumb, but he's naive. Always distracted, especially in the past with Mizi, without looking deeper into it and only absorbing how Ivan treated him in comparison to how he desired to be treated by people he cared about, back then they were immature children after all, when Till was spending day to day just trying to get by and feeling mostly confused by Ivan, it was easiest to assume things about Ivan that weren't true, especially in the instances where it'd seem like Ivan didn't even consider Till a friend, yet Till always cared about him

Till wonders why Ivan never asked him if he was okay, but in these scenarios where you're left asking why, maybe it is just that the other person was waiting for you to ask, too. It is just that Ivan wouldn't have known Till wanted him to care deep down if he thought Till disliked him so much, just as much as it would've been near impossible for Till to decipher Ivan's feelings if Ivan was always running and hiding. They both needed each other, but were actively denying themselves that because they were too scared of initiation, too scared to ask and get hurt, the Till of the present is understanding enough to realize that, fairly quickly, when he starts thinking back.

So when it comes to Ivan and Till's mutual misunderstanding, that's why Till was so stunned to realize something like Ivan actually caring about what he did, when otherwise, Till was too embarrassed to show him, and didn't think about whether Ivan would like it or not, if he could never read Ivan's feelings clearly. In Scars, we see him once again dismissing the thought and suppressing that revelation and the feelings that come with it, because of fear. Till was still avoiding and tiptoeing around the past.

However, this time it occurs to Till just how much time has passed-- Till has always had Ivan by his side, never imagined anything but-- now he's simply growing up without him. Till realizes he's been free, he's been doing things on his own, learning to ride a motorcycle, drawing, but he's been alone. (even though his vision of freedom would've always been alongside his friends, over being alone like this.) He's not used to being alone; most of all, he doesn't want it. So he doesn't let go of Ivan, yet again lacking the initiative to confront the situation, it never fixed anything when Till first woke up in the rebellion. It torments him; he's alone. But loneliness... that's why Ivan is here too [that's why he's always been there.]

Rather than a figure shrouded in darkness or a corpse coming back to haunt Till, it's just a child. There's a gentleness to the way Till sees Ivan now in contrast to Scars when he's coming to confront his grief and regrets directly. He had lost something irreplaceably precious to him before he could realize what it really even meant, before it was too late .

He remembers it was always Ivan desperately finding ways to get excuses to be with him by any means, good attention or not. Till didn't notice that it was because they were so alike. Lonely and needed someone

Back then, he could've never imagined that Ivan was so sensitive

Till just didn't understand it at the time, and so couldn't find the words to elaborate on the subject of Ivan, but it was always Ivan in his peripheral vision, no matter what. If only they both knew the word "family" = [how to confront each other], they could've prevented their suffering

[it’s a pitiful circumstance], but what Till feels isn’t pity, nor sympathy, but rather Till is understanding. He’s finally understood why Ivan always followed him around and did the strange things he did in the past, which held him back from truly connecting with Ivan, because they both came to constant clashes because of their fundamental differences

That's the thing that makes Till's path different to me, it's that he could've easily spiraled further into guilt for not realizing it sooner,

Instead of continuing to be angry, resentful, afraid, remorseful--instead of falling further into self-hatred, etc. He acknowledges and understands Ivan. Till's compassion and care effortlessly reaches out to him, he accepts Ivan, knowing they were both going through similar things and that Ivan was also afraid, even though it will never be the same as coming to understand the real Ivan, the point of Till's breakdown is his realization that this is all coming to him way too late. If only they had the time and the knowledge, they could've fixed this. He's regretful, but through this, he's making amends.

I'd like to believe there is forgiveness in there, too. For both of them, effortlessly loving, unconditionally, is in Till's nature (and it seems like as he's grown post-cure, he has become a more understanding person). This is rightful reassurance for two characters who didn't know how much they truly meant to each other, and couldn't have a better relationship. For Till, who couldn't shake the regret of overlooking Ivan for so long that he believes he caused this-- he gets to finally understand himself and Ivan by seeing his own pains reflected in him, and then he comes to come to truly know Ivan after all this time

For Ivan to be acknowledged and accepted [and loved] just like he's always wanted, is in its own way, closure for them both. Even despite its tragedy. ["to love is to be seen"] <- in a way, you know, they both desired to be seen and healed. Now Till's own love and care for Ivan is shown more clearly in his actions as he finally allows himself to come to peace with what he's been avoiding for decades of their relationship

Really... Till is so filled with love, only love can do what he did for Ivan

This moment gives Till a freeing sense of peace, metaphorically and literally. After that day, years have passed, and Ivan still hasn't come back to him. Till is devoted to living alongside the suffering he knows and the memories, not leaving them behind or treating them like a disposable part of himself, since Ivan will always be someone he cherished and cared about.

-

Till's character being able to make it out of this in a gentle way, therefore reaffirming his nature, is what I value most. I say he subverts the outline slightly because, for Luka and Mizi, specifically Mizi, for instance, who also needs closure, she's stuck in a loop of self-atonement and loneliness for things she can't take back, she's been living in her own personal hell for ages, she can't forgive herself and she must still believe she deserves it. It's uncertain if she'll really be able to grow and continue living despite it, like Till did, or if it is certainly her fate to never be able to escape herself. The one thing she has to fight for is to understand and forgive herself first. But I believe they all have it in them to make it, I believe they're all meant to at some point

Till was just narrowly close to losing himself to grief and sorrow. But he's always had a knack for coming back from the brink, and with a newfound sense of bravery and growth and understanding, most importantly, love-- he does what he couldn't do before. He decided to confront Ivan and the suppressed feelings. He decides to search for Mizi because what they need together is family and closure. By doing this, he would be cherishing Ivan's memory, by repurposing the suffering and the love into something even more profound (you know 🫩)

[cloverandstuff]

This scene is so interesting.

Because when you look at the way the visuals and lyrics flow together, you get an idea of Hyuna's feelings.

This part is a solo by Hyuna. The chorus was always sung by Luka and Hyuna together before this, but Hyuna sings it alone here.

Without a word, you'll embrace,

The sea that sings

On a first glance, it looks like this is about Luka falling for Hyuna. And for the most part, that is correct. Whenever they sung the chorus together, it was about Luka falling for Hyuna.

But at this scene, I think this is Hyuna's acknowledgement about her own feelings.

When the lyrics "Without a word, you will embrace" are sung, it's Hyuna who is on screen.

Meanwhile, when "The sea that sings" plays, Luka is the one who appears. He even starts to laugh.

Hyuna is the one who hugs Luka, while Luka is laughing. (Aka, she, without a word, embraces the boy who is laughing).

It then cuts to Hyuna hugging Luka, right after she's been shot. She is still embracing the sea that sung. The vocals carry out a run from the flashback to this scene.

I think in this specific instance of the lyrics, it's mainly about Hyuna acknowledging that she cares for Luka. It happened without a word, without her knowledge or want. She, against all odds, wanted to protect him.

She is the one who sings the finals lyrics, and it's right before she tells Luka how she still cared for him. How she still loved him. She tells him to forgive himself endlessly and endlessly, because that's where its all begins.

The end of the song and the end of their scene are both a testament to how much Hyuna cared about Luka. They represent that, for a very long time, since they were kids, Hyuna has cared for Luka no matter what happened.

I wanna try to dissect her speech next, but this scene sent me on a tirade. The way you have to look deeper to find a aecond meaning in it, I lived it so much.

[radioactive-yuri]

i have so much to say about how affection between people who grew up with no idea what human relationships look like is portrayed in alien stage.

mizi and sua would probably never describe each other as "girlfriends", they don't know what that word means. instead they're each other's universe, god, reason to live, clematis. these intense feelings that they're fundamentally unable to express in the ways that we, as the viewers, are used to, must then be expressed as exactly the way they themselves experience them, instead of being shoved into boxes of specific relationship titles. it's a lot more honest to mizi's actual feelings to have her describe sua as her god and her universe than it would be to have her say "i love her" or "we're lovers" or even "we're in love" because all of those phrases only have the meaning we as humans have given them through societal norms and expectations. those words wouldn't mean anything to children raised completely outside of those norms and expectations.

in a similar way, the concept of "crushes" is so heavily woven into our culture as humans that i genuinely don't think that what till has for mizi or what ivan has for till could be described as a "crush". again, that word wouldn't mean anything to them. to till, mizi is his idol, his muse, and his best friend. to ivan, till is his purpose, his responsibility, and his obsession. not a crush, because "crush" is a forgotten word from a forgotten culture in the past. all they have are their feelings, which reveals the different nature of their feelings as compared to each other.

we as humans often dumb these complex feelings down when we give them just one word. "love" is just one feeling, a "crush" is just one feeling. when actually the way we experience these feelings is infinitely complex and diverse, different feelings are given the same name and that difference is cast aside, but not in alien stage. every dynamic is given the complexity it deserves, every dynamic is unique, no two characters experience "love" the same way.

[aakaneeee]

Wiege is not about Luka and Hyuna.

I mean, it is. But not fully.

Wiege is about a cycle.

"Wiege" means cradle - it's been told many times. A cradle.. the ANAKT garden, protecting the children, keeping them safe. But a child can't walk out of a cradle.

In Wiege, both Luka and Mizi lost everything they had, except that for Mizi, it took so much time, gradually suffering, building up more and more, while for Luka, it took a second, a blink, and his whole sky dawned on him. He's seen Hyuna, was in her arms.. and then he was left alone, again. Forever, this time.

But this isn't their sorrow alone.

The generations after them will have an unlucky winner that will be left alone as well.

So will the after.

And the one after.

And again, again, again.

Luka and Hyuna represent the pain of a couple that had the courage to branch out: Hyuna escaped, Luka won. And guess what: they cycled back to the same place. They can never escape: in this Universe, humans cannot escape. Even when they try to find their own Gods, the aliens demolish whatever idea of escapism they had.

And so they have done before this season, and before that.

It's never ending - even when someone feels safe, something intervenes.

Alien Stage never ends well. No matter how plausible it seems for something to go the characters' way, it never happens. Because it's not according to what they want. It's all directed by the creatures that have taken over their free will, rights, and transformed them into pets. I've recently started to be almost unwilling to call them pets; even animals shouldn't be treated the way they are.

In Wiege, little Luka kills his clones, in cold blood, it seems, only then realizing what he's done. The aliens approach him without weapons or hostility: that's what they wanted, isn't it? In my mind, that's how I interpreted it. Him being forced to show his superiority, by killing, essentially, himself. By killing his personality. I think that's the moment where it went wrong for him.

And I think we all know how Sua was treated like a doll, an ornament, how Till was thrown around, beaten up, and then used. Mizi and Ivan are just 2 lucky ones between probably billions of pet humans. In the end, even if Mizi was lucky, her owner still only called her "Creature."

So, Wiege isn't only about the misfortunate couple that withered today: but about every misfortunate couple since the beggining, whose plans were crushed.

In the Modern AU we were shown Luka and Hyuna being engaged, happy, leaning in for a kiss. In the actual Alien Stage, Hyuna was everything Luka had left. Emphasis on had.

[allebooklover]

All of this but also — Mizi and Ivan weren’t lucky.

Mizi was living under water with her owner. Humans can’t live under water, the only reason she was able to do so was because of the space set up by her owner. She lived well and was loved, but her survival hinged on being loved by her owner. They could’ve killed her in a blink of an eye by drowning her, throwing her out of the habitat, even by accident. Like a goldfish in a globe aquarium— spacious, well cared for, but fragile and utterly dependent on its owner for survival. Mizi was powerless and she knew it, and I think that’s partially why she wanted to leave so badly to Anakt Gardens, which was more suitable for her lol species and she had more opportunities to control her own circumstances. Thats probably also why she was so good at faking ignorance and naivety—that was what made her endearing to her owners and kept her safe from harm, and she’s still yet to let go of the coping mechanisms from that time.

Ivan’s situation is that his relationship with his owner is transactional. He gives up his free will and obeys his owner in exchange for privileges. He was treated well, but any affection or gifts his owner gives Ivan is conditional on how well Ivan can perform the task his owner gives him. Being from the slums, he had nothing from the start, then he was bought by Unsha and gifted to Unsha’s wife, who then left him at Anakt gardens. He was a stray who was bought and then abandoned at boarding school, with his living conditions determined by his obedience and his talents. It’s very possible that the abandonment and transactional nature he had with his owner amplified his low self esteem and belief of being unlovable, and why he shows a fawning reaction to gain favour—it was the best method of survival he had at the time.

All of them had abusive parents/owners of varying flavors. All of them wanted freedom in one way or another, to live as they pleased. But thanks to Alien Stage, and their status as pets, that was never to be.

And yeah, as long as alien stage goes on, it would just repeat— I think that’s why Luka and Hyuna are from an earlier generation than the quadrant. It’s to show how the tragedies that befell the 4 weren’t unique—it has happened since the show started and will happen after them, so long as the show continues to exist.

Wiege is about the cycle of misfortune that happens to the participants of alien stage. That I agree. But fortune and misfortune go hand in hand. That’s why I think wiege is also a cradle for their hopes and dreams, the cycle of fortune and misfortune of all participants that entered Anakt gardens. We see a what could have been in the high school au, and a what was in the scenes were Till, Ivan, Sua, Mizi and the other students were having fun together, interspersed with the misfortune that Hyuna and Luka went through—the reality that happened. They met in the garden, grew up cradled in their own self made warmth amidst the darkness, developing their hopes and dreams for what is to come—only for it to shatter in the face of reality at the stage, when they step out of the cradle.