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“Sylki this” “Lokius that” “Loki deserved happiness :(” some others say
I just want main timeline Thor's (and other Avengers’) reaction to the power his brother now has and the character development and sacrifice it took him to get there but it is never gonna happen 😭
do you think, after the events of TDW, Loki thought about Thor pushing him to safety when he was about to be sucked into that dark elf weapon thingy? do you think he was reminded of falling from the bifrost when he had been airborne and being sucked in? do you think he wondered if Thor was reminded too? do you think he laid awake at night sometimes and wondered if Thor would have caught him after he let go if he could have? do you think he wished he had?
Yeah, having Sylvie work at McDonald's is a way of getting us to see her as "one of us", like they want us to see her as "the peoples' Loki", the sentimental favorite, and using McDonald's to play on our nostalgia.
Because she is Loki, but she's the good Loki, the Cool Loki, the one whose pain is actually real and legitimate. The one who would rather kick back at Mickey Dee's with a Big Mac rather than chase power or sit on a throne - I guarantee you that this is what they want us to think.
I've noticed for some time that the MCU have treated their god characters as if they are unaware of their godness, as if they'd rather just hang out in Midwestern America than do anything else, and as if they are complete idiots who are unworthy of their titles. And it's so disappointing.
And having Sylvie work at McDonald's because she sees it as the warm, safe place she never knew as a kid, and sees kids with their families and friends, all the while knowing that if she had finished growing up in Asgard her life would never involve a McDonald's at any point, just makes me roll my eyes. Yeah, I'm playing the world's smallest violin right now!
You know, I always thought that Loki was the most human, relatable character in the Thor franchise. Without any gimmicks or product placement. His pain was real, it was legitimate. Growing up in someone's shadow (a pretty significant, massive shadow too), never feeling seen, always feeling different, on the outside, only to have his worst fears confirmed in the worst possible way. I think the some of the worst pain you can ever experience comes from being betrayed by someone you love and trust and look up too, but what do I know, I'm just a fangirl, right?
But yeah, they're going to milk that "Poor Sylvie" thing for all it's worth.
I fully agree. People related to Loki because no matter how rich or poor someone is anyone can understand what it feels like an outcast. Anyone can relate to the feeling of wanting to be seen and loved. That's what the creators completely don't understand when they try to portray Loki as a spoiled prince, Loki was relatable. There can be a humanity in characters that even though they're god royalty, space captains or talking animals viewers can still see themselves in. They don't need to be "normal people" with "normal jobs".
Like, I get Sylvie finding the appeal of finding a place to settle down, but you can't ask me to take it seriously when its McDonald's. She could find that comfort in settling down in a village on Asgard or Jotunheim.
She's not human, why does it have to be on earth.you? It's like the point Loki brought up in TDW these people are a heartbeat to her. It's a comfort that wouldn't last that long.
So, anyone want to read my theory about how and why syIvie cant really continue as a character past Ioki s2?
Warning this is not exactly sylvie/sylki friendly. I’m not attacking anyone but please dont read if you’re going to look for a fight, I dont want one and its literally just a theory.
I don’t think Sylvie can continue as a character past s2.
The only character she really interacted with in s1 was Loki, her storyline with Kang and the tva is pretty much all wrapped up (one could argue her childhood nexus event but it was already l, very subtly revealed. When they arrested her as a little girl, she was playing with her Valkyrie dolls and she was roleplaying the Valkyrie that defeated the dragon and saved the day… she was playing the hero. Loki’s are not supposed to want to become or become heroes at all, they are supposed to be the villian who always loses. so because young Sylvie wanted to be a Valkyrie and protect Asgard, she violated the sacred timeline. She was not meant to be a hero, none of her actions so far in s1 make her a hero, to me she can not and will not be a hero going forward and the Lamentis nexus event was designed by He Who Remains to get her and Loki off Lamentis, back to the tva and then to the citadel). Her individual plot in s1 is only ‘kill HWR’, not even properly stop the tva because she could have been recruiting the tva workers instead of killing them, she knew they were victims like her that had been kidnapped and brainwashed. But she didn’t, she went straight to the top, killed HWR and has seemingly left to live her own life. Her story arc is essentially done. I don’t think she will have a redemption because she doesn’t think she did anything wrong and even if she did think it she wouldn’t admit it (like killing the minutemen she knew were victims - she just said “I did what I had to do”, no accountability or remorse).
She has no meaningful or lasting interaction with anyone else but loki and HWR. The former she betrays and rejects, not just romantically but in every way between “you cant trust and I cant be trusted” and her repeated denials of being like loki/“a loki” and the latter she kills so where else can her character development go? They had some really interesting potential between her and B-15, Ravonna, Mobius, etc. but they barely did anything with that and only really cared about her in regards to TVA Loki. She has no real interaction with the other Loki variants in the void either, and they barely let her remember her own parents or her Thor. She is completely isolated in her story and I cant see her crossing over into the main mcu because even with as much as we’re told she’s amazing, frankly she is very bland and unlikeable, her only characterisation is ‘angry and can fight’. If she interacted with other mcu characters they definitely wouldn’t like her after finding out she was willing to put the whole multiverse at risk for her own selfish desires.
I know from what’s already been said by people working on the show about s2 essentially being “the search for Sylvie and to right the multiverse” but I can’t imagine her going “Oh I was wrong I’m so sorry, let me team up with you guys even though I insult and assault you all the time and betrayed you Loki. We’d make a great team even though we’ve already established we cant trust each other!” It would be out of character. She’s such a lone wolf and clearly hates working with others so I can’t imagine a redemption involving her joining other mcu heroes. Sylvies arc is so self-centered and selfish, her attitude so abrasive and condescending, that without Loki pining after her or the tva hunting her she cant believably interact with anyone else. Ravonna is Kangs love interest in the comics so I can see that happening and her expanding out. B-15 could become a shield agent if she wants or could just go back to her old life and never be heard from again. Mobius is a popular character and has other potential with him being MR Tesseract in the comics. Sylvie, there is next to no potential for her because she’s already achieved her selfish revenge, screw everyone else in the multiverse. There is no redeeming that in my eyes other than a last minute ‘I’m forced to help the mission/fight kang as defence and then be killed’ style “redemption” (and I personally hate those because its not actually redemption because there is no work being put in to be a better person, its just dying) but again I dont see it happening because she doesnt hold herself accountable. I think either she will refuse and live on a timeline, maybe with the postman mentioned in ep3 if they ever actually existed, never to be heard from again or she will in some way be forced to fight a Kang and he will kill her to A) establish him as the big bad both in the show and in the mcu proper going forward, B) as a mirror of her killing HWR (who was keeping his other variants in check) and starting all this multiverse mess and C) as a mirror to Ioki “helping” Thanos and then being killed by him. She could potentially be a villain, it would definitely be interesting and her actions in s1 pointed that way to me but again I cant see anything that could involve her crossing into the main mcu as a villain because right now it would be too similar in the broad strokes to what has been done with Wanda so I cant see them going that route again, especially so quickly.
From what we know sylvie’s only appearance is in 2 locations, the mcdonalds and a record store which I’m assuming will happen in the same episode so I really don’t think she’ll play a big part at all in s2. I dont think they’ll continue with sylki after she betrayed him and all the offscreen controversy surrounding it (incest, transphobia ect). Marvel cancelled brucenat and stevesharon over less harmful criticism. The ship is also just pure toxic, its not a progressive relationship at all, if their presenting genders were swapped it would be abusive but because its a female presenting person doing it to a male presenting person its brushed aside, he’s a simp and she’s a girlboss. There is also no growth for her in the relationship because she has already established that whatever she may feel for him is not as important as her own desires and again she then rejects and betrays him.
As a character most people just dont really care about her much. Critics didnt really like her other than “girlboss we should hype up”. We know that critics were only previewed the first two episodes, the first two episodes were the most watched and highest rated. I fully believe, what with everything Tom has said, that he was proposed the show based off the first two episodes. Everything from episode 3 onwards felt like a completely different show. Sophia herself isnt that skilled an actor or personally likeable, especially after her comments on Loki’s genderfluidity. She doesnt have that much onscreen or offscreen chemistry with any of her costars and she actively shits on Loki’s character to hype Sylvie up and she admits she did not research into Loki at all, not even collaborating with Tom and said Sylvie was basically being made up as they went along and Herron added extra Sylvie scenes in while they were filming which makes sense when Season 1 had a different original storyline (and I’m sensing that season 2 sort of is the OG storyline that they had in mind what with marvel reusing the s1 synopsis for s2). I remember Michael Waldron saying in an interview that they were mid way through writing the show when a female writer came to them and pitched the Loki and Sylvie romance love story, and he said he and the rest of the crew just went with it and Herron has previously said she thought the end of s1 would be the last we see of Sylvie.
People on Instagram: “What do you MEAN the show was portraying Loki as a villain and Sylvie as a hero? No one thinks that, you’re just fishing for problems at this point!”
Meanwhile people on Tumblr:
So Sylvie’s the hero right? Um let’s see heroes usually try to do something to save or help other people and Sylvie has *checks notes* murdered a bunch of minutemen she knew were brainwashed variants and enchanted them to the brink of insanity to get information and the number of people that she planned on helping with that information is *flips page* oh just her? Well she was just doing it for survival right? Wait no hold up I don’t think survival consists of killing helpless people just because she can. She has to feel some sort of remorse or guilt for the stuff she did tho right I mean she said she didn’t enjoy hurting peop- oh nope sorry wrong variant that was Loki but she probably did all this because she under mind control and torture a la Thanos right? *looks back at notes* oh wait no sorry wrong variant again that was Loki this one seems to have been fully conscious while killing variants that were also stolen from their timelines the way she was I mean in her own words “classic hero stuff” amirite
Do we need to remind them that she was enchanting not only minutemen but regular people as well? We see that in ep2 and she wants to do the same thing in ep3 until Loki literally stops her to try and talk things out instead of resorting straight to violence (she's such a Thor variant it's funny).
Do we need to remind them that she knew the minutemen were variants and she never thought of telling them? And the only one who was desperate to tell them was Loki not her?
Do we need to remind them that in ep6 when Loki asks her "what if he's telling the truth" her answer to that is "so what?". So what if the multiverse suffers from her actions, so what if everyone is hurt or killed or worse from her actions, so what if she's wrong, she wants her revenge and doesn't give a damn about anyone else.
And "she feels guilty"? I'm going to need sources for that because she shows no remorse at all in the series. Funnily enough the only one who does show remorse is Loki even though he does absolutely nothing wrong in the show.
She's not doing those things "to survive". I haven't seen this talked about but the only reason the TVA is after her is because she's killing minutemen. They weren't after her because she escaped, they say as much to Loki and among themselves. They want her because she's a killer of their precious minutemen. Would they have been chasing her if she hadn't murdered their agents? Dunno. But the truth is she chose to kill them out of her desperate thirst for revenge, which she had every right to feel after what they had done to her, but she could have survived just fine without doing that. Her only motivator for killing them was revenge not survival.
Sylvie is an abusive narcissist who burns people alive for fun. Her response to Mobius confronting her about killing innocent people is to deflect back on him in a classic narcissistic whataboutism move.
Sylvie is not a hero, no matter how the series tries to frame her.
Now that you mention it i went back to that scene and this is how it goes:
Mobius: All that time I really believed we were the good guys
Sylvie: Annihilating entire realities, orphaning little girls, classic hero stuff
Mobius: Well I guess when you think the ends justify the means there's not much you won't do. And by the way you did some annihilating too
Sylvie: I did what I had to do
Mobius: Yeah, so did I
Sylvie: You hunted me like a dog
Mobius: Sorry about that
She takes no responsibility for her actions, in fact if anything she defends herself, then in order to switch the conversation from her actions to the TVA she victimizes herself thus basically leaving no room for Mobius but to apologize to her. The discussion about the things she did is over, the focus is now in the TVA and Mobius.
She does the same thing to Loki in the final episode when he's trying to talk with her about the consequences of murdering HWR but she keeps dodging every question resorting to accusing him of thirsting for the throne to the point of telling him "go on, kill me": she positions herself once again in the victim role so that the focus will go to Loki and his actions instead of her.
I gotta say, she's a pro at manipulation and deception. I'd have mad respect for that if it wasn't for the series' obsession with framing her as a good girl and a hero when she's anything but.
She could kill Loki and smile as looking down at his bloody corpse and Loki's own fans would clap and say "what a badass woman, killing him that way,i love him but he deserved it"
Problem is how writers so tried to (and succeeded in eyes of fans) to frame her (for some reason) as a hero. A literal murderer and manipulator.
Whole show we see only her murdering and manipulating and torturing others but its only Loki who didnt do 1 bad thing in series, who apologizes over the course of series and suffers and is even called narcissist. That irritates us.
LITERALLY!!! I genuinely do not understand why we are supposed to find Sylvie a “heroic” character in any way. She spends the entire series being absolutely horrible to Loki, and literally everything she does is for her own selfish desire for revenge. Her whole speech in the last episode about how she was angry that the TVA destroyed other people’s lives felt like total bullshit to me, because the series showed no instances of her ever caring about anyone other than herself up until that point. Sylvie isn’t angry that the TVA hurt other people; she’s angry that they hurt HER. That’s it.
Imo, Sylvie would have worked better as a tragic figure similar to Erik Stevens from Black Panther - someone who was angry for a justifiable reason, but ultimately too caught up in their own hatred and desire for revenge to see the bigger picture or work for the greater good, so their rage leads them to essentially become the very thing they hate. That’s why in my rewrite of the series, I *spoiler alert* added a twist in episode 6 where Sylvie betrays Loki and turns out to be a villain. That way, there’s a REASON why she treats Loki and everyone around her so horribly and it makes sense that she acts so selfishly. Herron and Waldron are so incompetent to think that anyone that acts the way Sylvie does is a hero.
I’m genuinely convinced there is 1 of 2 possibilities at play here because its not the first instance of “tell but not show” that happens in the series.
For example we’re told over and over again Loki is evil and a narcissist and will betray everyone because only cares about himself and while he has done bad things, that is not what we are shown in the series, as soon as he found out the tva workers were brainwashed variants he wanted to help them, same thing again when he heard Sylvie’s story, when B-15 was incapacitated by Sylvie’s enchantment he instantly went over to check if she was alive whereas Sylvie didnt care, he called his other variants monsters because they were willing to backstab each other.
Then we have Sylvie and the “romance” (I will explain why I put it in speech marks but I will say now it is not about shipping discourse or about whether or not its good or bad genderfluid representation - thats an entirely different rant) as said above we are constantly told that she is the “superior Loki variant” and she’s framed as a hero when that is not what is shown on screen and its the same with the “romance”. You have a few moments that are honestly so ambiguous the audience themselves were questioning if they were romantic or not in nature, they could have just been 2 people platonically caring about each other. But other than that its other characters, not even Loki and Sylvie themselves but Mobius and Kang who tell us that they are in love and then they both instantly go on to completely drag the relationship, calling it twisted, demented unnatural ect. Now if you want your audience to root for a relationship that is NOT the way to do it because if they were meant to be portraying “star crossed lovers” vibes then that is not what they achieved at all. Between having other characters call out how wrong the relationship is and constantly shoving the fact that they are the same person (no matter how much they try and backtrack now, saying that Sylvie is her own person because she’s been through different experiences to Loki*) in our faces, makes it seem like they are also trying to tell us we should not be rooting for them. Between that and having Sylvie treat Loki like crap, we are not shown a romantic relationship we are meant to root for. I personally do not see any romantic chemistry between the two characters and I don’t believe that, even if Loki had romantic feelings for her, I dont think she ever reciprocated them because we are not shown her ever caring about him because again she treats him like crap the entire time, she tries to kill him multiple times, constantly degrades him and his ideas and when she asks for his opinions she instantly tells him to shut up, if thats meant to be a romantic relationship then its an abusive toxic one and again not one we should root for. I’ve seen people argue that she pruned herself for him but thats not true she was told he was alive and if she pruned herself that she would find HWR, once she got to the void she was convinced he was dead and wouldn’t have bothered to look for him without Mobius. The kiss was merely a tool for betrayal with no genuine romantic feelings behind it. She initiated it, he just stood there, they weren’t even tilting their heads and had their noses pressed together uncomfortably and then she blasted him (not even just a physical push, but an unnecessary blast with magic) through a timedoor to get him out of the way of her revenge.
So like I said at the beginning there are 2 possibilities at play here:
1) its all completely intentional because A) they already knew they were getting a second season; we know they had to cut the number of episodes in the season down due to covid and by splitting it into 2 series was the best way to do the full story and imo with the criticism backlash and poor viewership after episode 2 idk if they would have greenlit a 2nd season after the full series had aired
Or 2) they really have no idea what they’ve actually written (which may genuinely be the case in which case I fear for season 2)
Just want to point out that I do like Sylvie as a character, she has a lot of potential, but they need to stop framing her as a hero because she isn’t one and people justifiably criticising her is not “misogyny” or “you just dont like her because she got in the way of your gay ship” because no, no one has a problem with a female presenting variant of Loki and this is nothing to do with ship wars, most people are actually capable of critical, analytical thinking and have genuine criticism of Sylvie and the relationship without seeing things solely through shipping goggles
*It still doesn’t make any difference imo. If I had a long lost twin, no matter how different a life I had led from them, it would still be incest if I kissed them. Its the same with Sylvie and Loki, they had different lives but both originally came from sacred timeline Loki. Yes Sylvie has her own personality due to her life but she is also a Loki variant, so they are the same person.