I guess they are not going to do an S3? Which is fine when I think about all the ways it could go wrong—just based on the tags in this post—on the two most important fronts. Their relationship and the show’s very clear anti-war stand that challenges so many mid representations about West Asia in S2 too.
If they do it, I hope Kirsten gets to have more of a think on that willingness to torture to save Amy—which I understand—and maybe find the strength to grow beyond it.
And that the two remain together and happy with only the case and danger causing tension.
And that the anti-war and anti-weapons program stance remains consistent. In fact, S2 improved on that front so I hope any S3 would improve too.
Also, I would like to see more of them together with each other and Poppy and the new baby. Each with the kids and together too.
There. That is my whole wish list.
Did they kill off Cat before S2? Bury the Cat?
PS: I just watched this show in the last couple of weeks. Not sure if anyone else is following them now that a year and a few has passed since the last one. But…
I guess they are not going to do an S3? Which is fine when I think about all the ways it could go wrong—just based on the tags in this post—on the two most important fronts. Their relationship and the show’s very clear anti-war stand that challenges so many mid representations about West Asia in S2 too.
If they do it, I hope Kirsten gets to have more of a think on that willingness to torture to save Amy—which I understand—and maybe find the strength to grow beyond it.
And that the two remain together and happy with only the case and danger causing tension.
And that the anti-war and anti-weapons program stance remains consistent. In fact, S2 improved on that front so I hope any S3 would improve too.
Also, I would like to see more of them together with each other and Poppy and the new baby. Each with the kids and together too.
There. That is my whole wish list.
Did they kill off Cat before S2? Bury the Cat?
PS: I just watched this show in the last couple of weeks. Not sure if anyone else is following them now that a year and a few has passed since the last one. But…
Finding "the meaning" to a show that could have had up to five or seven seasons but was cancelled after the second is somewhat like trying to understand a novel composed of seventy chapters by having read only twenty — there is a whole wealth of information which we do not possess that could alter our reading of any given element or of the entire thing in itself.
Still, there are always patterns that weave a story into a cohesive unit and they can help us to better grope in darkness towards comprehension. One such pattern in Warrior Nun appears to be how the consequences to mistakes, "sins" or evil deeds committed by characters manifest.
Basic storytelling usually requires characters to act on something so that complications or resolutions may arise from their choices and move the plot forwards. In Warrior Nun, many of these actions are quite tragic in nature: Suzanne's arrogance and pride lead to the death of her Mother Superion; Vincent's allegiance to the higher power he believed Adriel to be inspired him to kill Shannon; Ava's flight from the Cat's Cradle ends up damning Lilith as she is mortally wounded and taken away by a tarask... All of these events have negative outcomes and heavy repercussions on all characters directly or indirectly involved. Something changes permanently because of them, be it in the world around them or within the characters themselves.
And yet, it would seem that all of these dark deeds not only move the story forwards but might also have overall positive results. We would have had no protagonist without Ava — and she would arguably never have received the halo to begin with had she not been murdered. What's more, on a personal scale, the horrifying crime she suffers is, in the end, the very thing that allows her a second chance in life, a new life.
An act of outside evil permits Ava to grow and develop, shows her a path she would not otherwise have found. Without her own season in some sort of hell, Lilith would not have been able to advance towards other ways of being and understanding beyond her very strict limitations. Vincent and Suzanne would not have embarked on their own journeys of enlightenment without having caused the pain they are responsible for.
Beatrice might have been paying for someone else's mistakes, but she, too, is given the chance to grow into herself through it. The afflictions that torment these characters advance the overall plot, but they also advance them, as individuals, as long as they are willing to learn and keep going despite the calamities large and small that they are faced with. Beatrice keeps going after parental rejection, Mary keeps going after losing Shannon, Jillian keeps going after losing her son (in part through her own actions, adding insult to injury)... Trouble and the adaptation that follows it, if one is open enough to learn from the experience, motivates the characters, propels them forward, teaches them.
The problem of evil has occupied the minds of many a thinker throughout the ages, given how the very existence of it, evil, might call into question that of God (a good, omniscient, omnipotent one, anyway). A common way of justifying suffering (and also God), then, is by claiming, as Saint Augustine, that "God judged it better to bring good out of evil than not to permit any evil to exist".
Now, it would be rather ridiculous to say of Warrior Nun that it follows in Leibniz's footsteps, also because this philosopher, expanding on the augustinian concept, attempted to defend the goodness of a real God with his "best of all possible worlds" while all we have is... Well, whatever/whoever Reya is.
But there seems to be an inclination towards some sort of optimism as a worldview nonetheless.
Betrayals reveal truth and grant knowledge (Vincent's culminates with the coming of Adriel, which allows us to know of the threat of a "Holy War" and thus prepare for it; Kristian's gives Jillian much needed insight, William's lights up the fuse for the fight to be taken more seriously...), crimes committed willingly or not open the way for Ava (Suzanne's killing of her Mother Superion causes the loss of the halo, which is transferred to Shannon, whose death opens the gates for Ava to walk through after being herself murdered by sister Frances)... The magnitude of these positive outcomes is perhaps not "balanced" when compared to the evil that brings them about, but there is still something to take out of the catastrophe.
However tragic the tones of a given event, the show itself appears to shun the predetermination that makes tragedy as a genre; if everything is connected, here it at least appears to not necessarily drag everyone into their horrible dooms.
What's more is that this lurking "optimism" matches really well with our own protagonist's personality.
And it makes perfect sense that Ava would do the best she could with whatever she is given.
Life for her, in the conditions she experienced after the accident, would have been unbearable without some sort of positive outlook on life. However deadpan, the joking and the "obscene gestures" and whatever other forms of goofing around beside Diego are a way of turning a portion of the situation in her own favour. Proverbial eggs have, after all, already been broken right and left — might as well make an omelette of whatever remains.
Humour is just another way of looking at the bright side of something, or, at the every least, of mitigating the utter horror it might bring. If the show allows for moments of lightness, if it lets us laugh, if it takes us through a perilous voyage which still bears ripe, succulent fruit instead of the rot of pessimism and its necessary contempt for humanity, it is because Ava herself sees things in this way. It isn't gratuitous or naïve in this case, but a true survival strategy, especially as it is confronted with the morbidity of Catholicism.
Here is a religion that soothes its faithful with the promise of reward in the afterlife — how else does one charge into battle against the unknown, risking one's own death along with that of one's sisters, without the balm of believing that we shall all meet again eventually, "in this life or the next"? How else does one come to terms with the ugliness and the pain of this existence if not by looking forward to a paradise perfect enough to make all trials and tribulations here worth it?
True nihilism would have annihilated Ava. Her present perspective is what avoided the abyss.
And there is nothing Panglossian to her attitude or what the show might imply by giving us her view on things. This isn't about "the best of all possible worlds", but of making the best of whatever situation we're in, of taking what we have and doing something with it, something good, something of ourselves. It isn't God making good out of evil, but our choices.
Killing innocent people and feeling no remorse will never be the best someone can aspire to do. Sister Frances, cardinal William, Adriel all learn this the hard way.
Those who do their best find that, somehow, they can move on from whatever it was that paralysed them. Ava, most of all, knows what it is to be stuck, frozen in place; she can never be the character who refuses to grow, even through pain, lest she condemns her spirit to the same fate her body is all too familiarised with. Those around her wise enough to let themselves be touched by her, by the dynamic power she carries, walk forth with her and live.
It says very little about "God" that Warrior Nun should adopt its heroine's views and seem "optimistic" as it progresses — but it speaks volumes about the values it presents for pondering, of the inspiration its protagonists provide, and of the multiple reasons why this is a story unlike most others.
I think Ava and her love for life is unique as a character but many a fantasy starts with a tragedy leading to knowledge and growth leading to well, not absolution but at least safety from horrors for the world, I think.
In the case of Ava though, the show seems to keep her essential characteristics—friendliness and warmth and positivity and humour, her love for life, which is hard for many to hold onto—and I don’t think that is typical for fantasy. At least, many end up developing so much that in the last book or so, they end up being unrecognisable from the first.
Or may be I am just thinking of Wheel of Time alone (I did have another in mind but I can’t for the life of me remember which one) and in Wheel of Time, Rand is a pretty bland character on whom you could just pour everything as the story progresses.
In the case of Ava though, without Shannon, Vincent and Suzanne, she would have been dead and the holy war might have just killed them all. In the case of Rand (or Valin from Anthony Ryan’s books), if his home hadn’t been attacked, he would have just remained at home. Though the world would not have been saved.
Perhaps, do the best with what you have been given is not the philosophy for usual fantasy though. After all, unlike Ava, these folks are chosen ones. Or ambitious as in the case of Malini (?) in Jasmine Throne. Someone trying to change heir circumstances as in the case of latter or many others.
Not sure what point I am trying to make here. Trying to think through the original post by Sister Divinium, I guess.
I’m going to make an “analysis” post about this two tiny shots/acting excellence from KTY because I think there is so much to it that it needs to be talked about.
The first one is this:
When Beatrice tells Ava she doesn’t want to go with Miguel and she’ll see Ava at home, there’s a sadness in her face, a longing plea to not pursue this - to stay in this tiny little bubble they’ve created. Where it’s just them against the world.
The more Ava reaches out to people, the more she sees of the world beyond the two of them, the more Beatrice is afraid Ava will believe what Beatrice believes about herself - that she isn’t good enough. Isn’t valuable enough. Isn’t useful enough.
Isn’t worthy of love, of Ava’s love.
Obviously, this is all in Bea’s head, Ava is in love with her already at this point, we’ve seen it here:
But to Beatrice, who Ava has pulled out of her shell so much in their time together, there’s still this part of her that is trapped in self-loathing - in the things she was told and the way she was treated growing up.
That she’s no good, that her love is wrong and that she is more of a tool than a person - while Ava has this light and energy that she could never reach or contain or be strong enough to hold on to.
It comes up again here:
When Ava comments on Beatrice’s “easy on the eyes” line, you can just see how it affects Bea. There’s this rift in Beatrice that you can feel throughout the first two episodes of season 2 - I think in this scene when Ava calls her out for her jealousy and makes this comment, it hurts Bea more than she says because it plays into the doubts in her mind that she’s too wrong, too tainted and too different to ever really have a chance with Ava.
Like if the halo and Adriel and the OCS and all of it fell away, why would Ava go for someone like her when she could have literally anyone?
It’s just little things (I could make a whole post about Alba’s acting choices too because they’re both so fucking talented it’s altered my brain on the importance of performance) but these subtle things are a part of what make these two and their love story so special.
Interesting how each of the characters has a traumatic background in this show. I mean, you do usually get that in fantasy shows with found family as a theme, but the diversity here and how it is directly used on the show–instead of just for episodic value as in Supergirl (sorry, I have not watched shows for a long time and just recently started and ended up watching Warrior Nun just a couple of weeks back), I think–is very interesting.
Plus, the way the story ties their background into each character’s relationship with faith. They do it even for Kristian.
You can fall in love with each and every character. (Though my favourites remain Ava and Beatrice, together and separate).
It feels more integrated somehow than a composite made of fragments.
Fandom and analysis is of course what makes it richer.
jt (finally) watches warrior nun - s1 e9 (pt 3) & e10
Last episode 9 thoughts and brief-ish thoughts on episode 10
I was thinking again about the fight vs flight critique that Ava and Bea had and was pondering that in the context of all the other interactions they’ve had thus far - and how it kinda bridges over to the interactions (esp the arguments) they have in s2.
As in: This is the first time that we see Ava kinda bite back at Bea - not like how she does in s2, mind you, (e.g. their arguments re: Miguel and the FBC) but it’s a little hint of it. In the same vein, for Bea, it’s a step further from the critique she had of Ava in the hallway in s1 e3 but not yet as emotional as the apartment fight in s2.
There’s not really a point to this observation, more like a, huh that’s interesting, in terms of how their relationship is slowly evolving.
That said, I … don’t have much to say about e10. I’d been dragging my feet mostly because I did not want to watch Adriel being manipulative, and woof, I was right. What I mean: they knew how to cast Adriel as evil via manipulation and lies, and they did it well. It really turned my stomach to watch it, and I was going at 2x speed plus had a completely unrelated movie running in the background (if you’d like to know: it was one of the Ice Age movies lol).
[Things I was pleasantly surprised by and some frustrations under the cut]
The reveal of Vincent’s loyalty was really well done - probably the only time the short scene edits served a purpose. Interweaving Vincent going to Adriel with Mother Superion confronting Duretti (and goddamn, Di Fanti was amazing) reminded me of old Hong Kong Triad movies for a sec. That said: It actually took me a moment to realize what they were doing because they’ve been doing those damn cuts so much prior to this that it nearly lost its effectiveness. All in all, really showed that they’d been setting up Vincent’s betrayal from the very start.
Speaking of old school HK movies, I was really frustrated with the lack of tension in the editing - or maybe it was the angle of shots? I can’t put my finger on why I wasn’t getting the tension I wanted from the girls’ reactions to Vincent’s reveal. (I was, however, hella amused that it took three of them to hold back Mary lol)
I will say that I was surprised by the scenes of the girls waiting for Ava near the beginning, namely Beatrice’s calm - which was highlighted by everyone else’s reactions: Lilith’s restless anxiety, Mary’s tense cynicism. Part of my surprise was because of that fight vs flight convo in e9. I mentioned in my e9 writeup that I found it really odd that Beatrice frames the reason why she has the extra explosives as more of a contingency if Ava fails, rather than how she simply says here in e10 that it’s their worst case scenario. She presents an almost serene sort of faith in Ava here - is it because she’s not alone with Ava (and therefore more critical of Ava)? Is it because she’s with the others (and therefore more presenting as “faithful”)? It’s very curious, human even, how she is both critical and trusting of Ava in these two episodes.
(Or: Perhaps Beatrice can’t find it in her to praise Ava to her face? Hm. Curious, curious)
Oh last thing: I did like - and hadn’t known! - that twist of the fight with Adriel actually being them buying time for Ava. That said, hadn’t it already been 7 minutes since she phased through the wall and yknow, had been talking to Adriel? Also what uh, what were they expecting Ava to do? Like, she still isn’t much a fighter lol. Again, weird tension/build/logic issues - there were plenty of “cool” moments but they didn’t seem to make sense…?
All said, kinda happy to be done with season 1. It felt really disjointed to me in terms of storytelling and editing (goddamn the short scene edits killed me), though it served as a good “introduction” to the main characters. The things it felt like they really wanted to, and did, nail was: let Alba shine as Ava (mission absolutely accomplished) and build Vincent’s betrayal (mission also accomplished).
In any case, looking forward to finally get into s2!
Yes, the reason Beatrice gives the others is completely different from the one she gives to Ava, isn’t it? This reinforces my belief that in her chat with Ava, she was distancing herself from Ava both externally (that is pushing Ava away) and internally (to her own self by pointing out what she perceives as less than stellar tendencies). But of course by the time of E10, and with others, her usual brain kicks over and she explains why they needed the explosives. (One thing I didn’t really understand, when Ava is already in the tomb, where does the question of running come from?)
I think the season set the characters—especially Ava, Mary, Beatrice, Lilith and Vincent up for me. That was very well done.
And I agree with a previous post. Beatrice’s steady state or core characteristic is calm and kindness.
Ava’s is friendliness and warmth, and a strong sense of justice. I think that sense of justice is why she worries about Michael when she sees him at ArqTech for the first time and decides to intervene—at great risk to herself (so, she isn’t selfish as OCS seems to believe)—and likewise goes to protect Diego. The Ava part is long because I thought the justice part needed explanation.
Perhaps, justice is not the right word and it is a strong sense of ethics or right or wrong?
Great to come up on these set of essays and follow along.
So I finished s1e9 earlier this week but I’ve been putting this off because … I didn’t like it very much. The only thing that I found mildly thought-provoking was the Avatrice scene where fight or flight was mentioned, which I’ll spend the bulk of this post ruminating about.
Just to get it out of my system, I’ll note my main criticisms under the cut. Jump to the paragraph that begins “Fourth and lastly” for when I start talking about Avatrice.
The main problems I had with this episode were four in total (trying my best to keep them concise lol):
First, the length of the scenes, or rather, how there’s an aggravating tendency to cut to a different scene before any sort of value change has been established (I’m thinking specifically about Robert McKee’s “Story” - this post summarizes the concept) - resulting in confusion instead of a tension that builds throughout the episode (not to mention a sort of “color-by-numbers” feel as we hit different plot points, rather than a cohesive, inevitable narrative).
Second, the blocking/staging and overall logic in the Ava-Bea-Lilith-Mary confrontation scene - Bea pulling a throwing star instead of a knife was strange, Mary shouldn’t have been able to put Lilith in any sort of effective rear naked choke with that height difference, plus if Ava had actually shot Lilith, she’d have hurt Mary as well - while Toya Turner killed that speech to Lilith, I couldn’t help but think that gosh, it could’ve been supported better. Anyway, it would’ve been nice if it had been filmed with less close-ups and more ensemble to really capture the chemistry and layers. (I’m thinking about this video by Every Frame a Painting re: ensemble staging)
Third, speaking of support: There was no support for Mother Superion’s reveal as a a former halo bearer here, and I was extremely frustrated by that. I’m not sure if they were trying to give her an air of mystery, a sort of “will she help Ava or will she not?” tension. But there was nothing to support even that. Like, yeah, her fight with Crimson was cool, but even there was no build up; no tension, just confusion. Then in the grottos scene when Superion tells Ava that she’s worthy, I found myself not believing her - because there were no scenes I could point to that showed me that she’d changed her mind about Ava. From what we'd seen so far, it seemed to me less that she started believing in Ava and more that she stopped believing in Duretti. Lesser evil sort of thing, which didn't really match the content of that scene. Again, while Sylvia De Fanti absolutely killed it, I felt like it could have been more than the disconnected, “oh we have to hit this plot point” moment that we got.
Fourth and lastly, there’s Beatrice’s criticism of Ava, aka the fight or flight conversation. I have a couple issues with this, centering around context and content. First, the context: This scene is following both the fight with Crimson’s gang - where we see Ava struggling with holding herself back to not get involved (which I sympathized with hardcore - Alba sells those moments so, so well) - and Mother Superion expressing her trust in Ava.
While Beatrice may not have been present for the latter, she must have been somewhat aware of Ava during the former - after all, Ava didn’t get involved, she did her job! - but instead of praising Ava for her growth, she disregards it (at best), ignores it (at worst). While the criticism itself is in character for Beatrice - after all, Bea did call Ava thoughtless and self-centered - it felt out of character for her to not have noticed the effort Ava had made during the fight.
Also, zooming out a bit further, Beatrice did do the right thing in bringing more explosives. She’s always been one to think of contingency plans, worst-case scenarios. That kind of planning isn’t personal, it’s mitigating risk - for both Ava and the rest of the team. Here, Beatrice is fulfilling her side of the trust equation: if something goes wrong - regardless of if it’s caused Ava or not - she will have some kind of plan to rectify the situation. That’s her job, that’s the value she brings to the team, to every mission. The fact that the conversation centers around Ava so personally just felt very off to me.
Second, the content of Beatrice’s criticism really rubbed me the wrong way. I hate that physiological reactions are presented not only as choices, but also as a binary - from what I’ve learned, there’s upwards of four responses (fight, flight, freeze, fawn). Additionally, I hate that flight is considered lesser, weaker - more selfish, more cowardly.
It really depends on the situation. Whenever I’ve taught self-defense, we’ve always expressed the importance of listening to your instincts and leaving a situation when you think you need to. Additionally, to take a different perspective, there are plenty of military examples where standing and fighting was the wrong thing to do. I feel like we glorify fighting for the sacrificial element of it - but man, living is just as important. Flight has its purpose - it would not have been built into our brains, into our bodies without good reason. Fight is not a superior response. It's just one of many that a person can have.
It’s a very black or white sort of statement from Beatrice and the only leeway I could think of to give her was that maybe for Beatrice, fight is all she’s ever known. That she was never given the chance for flight - or that it was drilled into her head that flight was selfish and cowardly. Taken from a queer and/or Asian perspective, that kind of makes sense. Especially if “fight” encompasses things like “enduring” - as in, enduring the shitty hand that you’ve been dealt, where you learn to survive despite the pain.
After all, Beatrice did say “pain is what made me a sister warrior” - it’s possible that she sees flight, running to be seen as an insult to all the fighting, all the pain she’s had to endure thus far. (Which I suppose that makes it all the more meaningful that she leaves at the end of s2…)
Anyway, I just wish there had been a bit more nuance in that conversation, or at the very least, less of the whole “let’s shame Ava for wanting to live without addressing all the trauma she’s been through” agenda that seems to permeate so many of these episodes in this season.
Sorry this came out much more rant-y than my other posts. Alba was really the only reason why I made it through this episode, she was wonderful to watch in every scene. Just wish there had been a bit more to it, yknow?
I did dislike these parts too and agree with your criticisms. Especially the Mother Superion scene and the fight or flight scene.
However, isn’t it possible—and I am thinking this just now—but isn’t it possible that Beatrice was also pushing Ava because she is scared?
Not just externally but also internally, devaluing Ava to herself as she does her own self perhaps because she is scared of well whatever they have taken up, the risks (I mean, they are blowing up the Vatican, Beatrice is going up against her whole faith here in a more concrete fashion than when she defied Duretti’s order) but also the fact that Ava may find herself stuck in the tomb if all their measurements has been wrong (what if the tomb wall is 22 feet?).
KTY says in an interview that by the end of season 1, Ava had become one of the most important people to her. So the thought of losing her might have made her all the more fearful. Quite another thing of course that Ava didn’t deserve it and she went into the tomb thinking that Beatrice didn’t trust her, which is painful to contemplate.
Oh and the whole transitioning scenes without allowing scenes to breathe and make their point is I think worse in S2. Netflix breathing down their necks about time may have something to do with it but still.
I mean, Simon’s Continuum of if I remember correctly, didn’t have that problem.
