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I'm sooo excited to finally read "Batman: Endgame". It's one of the most important comics including the relationship between Batman and Joker. Gosh gosh gosh, my plans are really sweaty,,,,
I'm getting a feeling, that Batman: Endgame is just a large version of the song "Mayday" by Sohodolls.
Hey hello, I have a question about delivery. I'm living in Europe, can a physical version with merch of zine be sent in one of Europe's countries??
Hello! Yes, the international service we're using delivers to Europe. If you have any particular concerns, you can send us a direct message with where you're located and we can double-check.
*sounds of happiness*
If anyone had the same doubts, I swear, this zine should be worth it!! ššš
Cannot be less excited.
I'm sooo excited to finally read "Batman: Endgame". It's one of the most important comics including the relationship between Batman and Joker. Gosh gosh gosh, my plans are really sweaty,,,,
Hello, clown connoisseurs and bat buffs!
There's about a day left on the > purchase interest check < if you want to let us know you're out there. After Sunday, May 17, the form will close.
Behind the scenes, we've been working harder than the Iceberg Lounge staff after a shoot-out, and we can't wait to share the book and fun goodies with everyone!
Speaking of which, stay tuned for previews of our contributors...
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"Youāre not my Batsy "
Okay so I just...I can't. I gotta revisit these panels AGAIN I'm sorry lmao HE IS NOT TALKING TO SELINA in the panels in which he is talking to Selina. These are the things he CANNOT say to the Joker and is actually a continuation of THEIR conversation; he's literally telling the Joker he can't let anyone hurt him, but he can't say that. He can't tell the Joker that even though the Joker has infuriated him; and ofc he doesn't let him out there to die. This is literally a Joker conversation with Selina that he wants to have instead with Joker. "You're too nice to kill me." "You're so nice Bruce Wayne." And again, note the orange clothing through-line. Clown in his head, Cat in his bed. Edit: Also note the positioning of both characters. Joker is in very similar, mirrored visual positioning to Selina!!
I might add, it's also interesting, that Selina is specifically called Batman "Bruce Wayne". Batman never thinks about himself as about Bruce, because his "true self" is Batman. Bruce Wayne is always a mask, that certainly helps in daily life or work as disguise.
Again, it's not the first time when a relationship with Catwoman SOMEHOW ends up being a relationship about Joker and Batman.
Not at the least, Joker is always true to Batman, not to Bruce Wayne. In high numbers of various multimedia we see Joker figuring out the true identity of Batman ā and it does not bother him. Even more, most of the time he's making sure no one else will know.
The main question that bothered me for a long time is why Catwoman and Batman could not be canon? Straight couple, she's a thief and he's seeking justice: it's perfect for the media to swallow it and make TONS of merch, stories, etc.
And the reason is rather funny.
Basically, the existence of Joker is always a problem. Stories about Batman and Joker get to such a point, that Joker is having more complicated and passionate relationships with Batman, then he's "planned love interest".
The main fuck up on my opinion was the most popular comic "Batman/Catwoman: The Wedding Album" (SPOILERS FARTHER). Not the deluxe version, but "Batman #48". What is interesting, the writer was trying to canonise Batman and Catwoman as a couple by referring to countless of their stories together. The main issue became that the writer also referred to the stories about Batman and Joker.
Right after that we have "the main confrontation part":
The author refers to Catwoman as the chance for happiness for Batman. But the truth is: in countless stories Batman comes back to his duty, the difficult pattern of personality of Batman is the crave for violence. This kind of craving is a topic for a lot more darker toned or undertoned creations. We see it in classic Frank Miller's comics and in one of the most popular right now "Absolute Batman". It stopped being only for justice a long time ago, when writers and artists started to explore more about trauma and how it can go in coping as violence. But it's a huge topic for another post.
The thing is, because of the aspect that has already become popular in the reader's society, I assume that light toned Catwoman/Batman could not continue as canon. Because we saw that the DC community accepted canon, for example Harley and Poison Ivy, even, though, Harley Quinn was previously with Joker. Which also makes sense.
In general, after reading this comic, I had a strong sensation that Catwoman was always in love with some kind of version of Batman, when Joker saw its raw image. For some reason or another, I was feeling sorry for everyone.
We also have a few more interesting moments, that made Batman and Joker more relevant. First of all, in these Batman #48 we have an interesting canonise version of one of the theories where Joker is absolutely sane. I love this theory, cause it is the one which also made me make a post about the troupe "Love makes you evil". It also canonises Batman and Joker non-existence without each other, even if the author continues the story about Batman and Catwoman. It feels like a lost potential.
And the last one. Joker wants to "save" Batman. Which again, keeping me of thought about their relationship that was based on violence.
That's all. Thank you all for your attention š„°
A little note: I was never against Catwoman and Batman, but I'm not a fan of them. I was always more into complex relationships, that's why it's my personal pattern of exploring not both of the dynamics, but only one. My personal pairings can never be canon and it will not bother me even a little. Ofc, in the case of Joker and Batman it's a rather different situation. Which again, makes me laugh violently most of the time.
Batjokes commission š«if youāre interested pls DM meš©ø
ONE OF MY FAV ARTIST FOR YEARS DRAW BATJOKES, OMG OMG OMG š¾š¾š¾
Batjokes commission š«if youāre interested pls DM meš©ø
I tried to search for archetypes that would be close to the Batman and Joker relationship.
Honestly, I end up on the trope Love Makes You Evil. Let me explain!
So, the popular explanation for this trope is that character start being evil for the reason as love passion. But what if the character continue to be evil for the reason for love passion?
We have a few examples of when Joker stops his criminal activity, because Batman retired, killed, or (which is funny) out of town. Also, we have quite interesting cases when Joker also knows or figures the true identity of Batman and keeps it to himself and prevents anyone from knowing it. In some situations, Joker kills someone who knows the true identity of Batman. For understanding why I also count it as a nice example: it's very easy to track where Batman and what he is doing, when you know that he's Bruce Wayne.
Love the idea that this trope is suitable for them, cause in many stories their affection towards each other is shown as violence. Trill, provoking for level up, how far they can go in their violent love affection for each other.
This trope works not for every one of their stories, but it works so well for some of them. Cause, when Batman is out of duty ā Joker is all about waiting and planning. And if Joker convinced that Batman died ā Joker all about crying, being irrationally angry and rather depressed about it.
I will keep you updated if I finally figure out about archetypes š„°
Curious as it may seem, but both the Joker and Catwoman not only debuted in the same comic (Batman #1, June 1940) and they both were introduced as jewel thievesā¦ Although how they went about their crimes reflected different character archetypes of the time, as well as heavily influencing their modern interpretations.
Selina, first introduced as āthe Catā, was introduced as a gentlewoman thief, who doesnāt wear a costume, but is a master of disguise, is exceptionally smart, charming, and is played, if not sympathetically, then is provided with a āworseā villain to make her look better in comparison.
Selina is somewhat influenced by more the charming, roguish kind of thief character, instead of someone who is more overtly villainous. So from the start she shares similarities with the French pulp character Arsene Lupin (who Lupin the 3rd of anime famous is descended), Leslie Charterisā the Saint, Raffles etc. etc.
The Joker, meanwhile, is also a jewel thief and also targets the rich, but while Selina uses disguises and schemes to make off with the shinies, the Joker is played more along the lines of the diabolical mastermind character type.
His schemes are smart, sure, but not only do his plots tend to involve murder as a piece of the puzzle (he wonāt just steal your stuff, heāll poison you horribly too),Ā heād tell his future victims in advance that heās coming to get them just to terrorise them more before he gets them.
This also include killing the Police Chief with a boobytrapped phone, just because.
Here the Joker is also influenced by a criminal stock character, but in this case heās influenced more by the likes of French pulp supervillain Fantomas, Sax Rohmerās Fu Manchu and others. These guys tend to be kind of āset pieceā villains, who would engage in some elaborate means of carrying out their plans which tends to play more on the theatre of villainy than efficiency.
Moriarty, Sherlock Holmesā archenemy (although he admittedly only appeared in like two or three stories, tops), started out as more of a realistic villain, being a man who publically presents himself as a celebrated mathematician while secretly running a huge criminal empire, but has since transformed into more of a traditional supervillain like the other examples Iād mentioned.
Moriarty from the books wouldnāt go in for death traps, for example, heād just have people investigating him die in mysterious āaccidentsā, this is contrasted with, say, everything that Sherlockās version of Moriarty does, which is very much for the spectacle (Elementary and the RDJ versions of Moriarty get it right, FYI).
Likewise, Holmes character Irene Adler started as an exceptionally smart woman (who also happens to be a master of disguise) who manages to outwit Sherlock and provides him a lesson in humility. Later versions tend to make her into a more of a Catwoman-ish character, despite Ireneās story being how SHE was the target of thieves instead of vice versa.
Ironically, as time progressed the Jokerās bite was lessened as tighted regulations in comics made him more overtly comic, removing him from his pulp supervillain roots, while those same regulations made Catwoman MORE villainous before phasing her out entirely for over a decade (her ambiguity and general nature contradicted the rules about āglamorisingā crime, so she was shelved between September 1954 to November 1966).
Strangely, in the current era weāre sort of back to where the characters started. Selinaās a mostly heroically aligned thief who is willing to break the law to help people (the Saint would approve), while the Jokerās back to murdering people random peopleā¦ although admittedly, there is less actual motivation behind it these days in his case, being just for the sake of murdering people instead of a) being for profit, and b) to show how smart he is compared to the cops/Batman.
Everytime in any comics or series of Batman, when Joker or Batman try to end their complex relationship one way or another ā it's just getting much worse and mad.
"The Batman who laughs" proves me this every time I'm sitting and reading it.
Ā”Spoiler alert!
Joker was the one who got too far with the idea that they have not much time and infected the one who will kill him with Joker virus or whatever the shit it is. Ofc it was Batman, but I can't stop thinking that this was a final touch, a goodbye kiss.
I'm still in the beginning of the story, so it's just my random thoughts
....so after that they want me to believe it wasn't about love-goodbye-kiss and relationship shit?
Everytime in any comics or series of Batman, when Joker or Batman try to end their complex relationship one way or another ā it's just getting much worse and mad.
"The Batman who laughs" proves me this every time I'm sitting and reading it.
Ā”Spoiler alert!
Joker was the one who got too far with the idea that they have not much time and infected the one who will kill him with Joker virus or whatever the shit it is. Ofc it was Batman, but I can't stop thinking that this was a final touch, a goodbye kiss.
I'm still in the beginning of the story, so it's just my random thoughts
Does anyone know a comic or series where creators would have the same concept of Joker's lipstick as in Frank Miller's Batman? I am just finding this idea genius, and honestly, I want to see more inspiration for this idea. Just imagine television advertising with collage elements with a slogan: "Lipstick "jokes on you!" will make your experience with a man or woman unforgettable! See how lips of your beloved one stretching into a smile full of joy, until their face pops!".
God, I would love to see it very queer and very violently-happy.
I was never that intrigued knowing almost 0 about the concept of scenario that I must read. Lol, the author got me with Arcane mention š
This come back from Frank Miller's Joker could be only with "Woman of the Hour" by Stela Cole from my playlist š„°š„°š„°
