[moooro]

[a-lyoshka]

last seconds before their sacrifice

[audaciousstarpupil]

oh, the parallels between cyran and orion and merlin and peggy/rolan.

cyran and orion both desire power; cyran wants to be the greatest mage (or, really, just best merlin), and orion wants to be king. but no matter how much they fight for that power, they can never get what they want because their intentions are not in the right place.

one cannot simply manipulate their way into either position — ruler or merlin.

to become ruler of the lightbearer empire, one has to draw excalibur, a sword that can only be drawn by those who truly think for the people, who would truly sacrifice for their realm, and lead the empire toward the light. these are all traits orion lacks — all of his actions have been out of self preservation, of people not discovering his lineage, even going as far as binding his own relative to keep him quiet. whether or not he was rolan's true descendant, i don't think he could've pulled out the sword.

peggy, on the other hand, attempted to draw excalibur to save her people. she was not thinking about becoming queen in that moment of peril; she was acting on the instinct to protect those around her regardless of the consequences, and if excalibur had not been replaced, i believe she could have drawn it then. she embodies what a true leader of the lightbearer empire should be, embodies everything that orion is not.

(it makes me wonder if the whole "descendent of rolan" thing is a myth, something twisted throughout history. i wonder if prince orion had not gone down a dark path, if he cared more about his people than his own gains, that he could have drawn excalibur, bastard child or not.)

how to become merlin is still vague, though we know they are chosen by their predecessor and are the most powerful mage in all of esperia. however, i doubt they are chosen on magical prowess alone. the first seat is something close to dura, and seems to be a protector, a last line of defense; just like ruler of the lightbearer empire, merlins have to be willing to sacrifice themselves for the greater good, for the betterment of esperia. they are no longer a person beyond their title, beyond their duty — they are merlin first and foremost, and nothing more.

something that became very clear during cyran's spiral is that he cannot understand merlin's kindness, their selflessness — you chose to sacrifice yourself for this pathetic world... power enough to steer the world, and you treated it like something inconvenient. cyran attributes power to personal gain; merlin has not used their power to bring esperia to its knees, has chosen to stay in the background instead of seize control. cyran cannot understand why, so much so that he distorts merlin's motivations in his mind.

both cyran and orion thought of these titles (merlin and king) as something owed to them; in their eyes, they had earned them, something they have a right to; but they do not understand these titles for what they truly are, and that is why they keep falling short.

[windmaedchen-oceanhorn]

Hey again, I will reblog this time for my response. Perhaps I can try to formulate my idea differently, too, one more time, as my response was hasty and I believe that unless you have taken the time to express your thought in spoken/written word - you haven't thought at all. So let me think. xD

.

Reading over your posts again, this is the gist (ignoring Cyran, focused on Orion):

"Orion's behavior shows that he believes he should be king and is ready to play dirty to achieve it. Which also shows that he hasn't understood (or lives by) what makes a good ruler, which in turn excludes him from being able to pull Excalibur."

And once more, you state that: "Orion lacks the qualities necessary to be a king."

.

What interests me here is the actual criteria you have put in place to come to this conclusion? Now, I gotta admit, I actually agree with you. Humans have and believe in virtues for a reason after all, and when directly pressed, nobody would agree that lying and deceit are "good" things to do - because they will backfire one way or another. That's just one of many examples possible.

And yet, can we apply such broadly universal standards to determine a "good versus bad" leader? What are your expectations in a leader (king or chancellor or president)? And is that measure by which you determine that actually accurate and trustworthy? 

Keep in mind that any King rightfully chosen by Excalibur can turn out to be a terrible ruler in many ways, simply because

(a) Excalibur decides based on Dura's magic and Dura is "human" with all the human biases we can have, so who's to say her choices are flawless? (For this reason I dislike "truth-magic" because HOW can magic determine what is true and what is not?)

and (b) that wonderful human can be so righteously blinded and ideological that they do more harm than good despite being fully convinced that they are serving the people.

.

I concur that the method by which Orion tried to secure him the crown was very questionable and based on that, one might be inclined to deduce that he'd continue to govern the same way. But, I want to point out that Orion didn't (as far as we know) kill the King, nor did he allow anyone to be harmed. Discomfort was certainly desired but if anything had truly threatened any of the people involved, I think Orion would have done everything to help. And this was merely to protect the face of the royal family (not just his own) and continue to meet expectations from literally everyone (except the opposition, but even they have to accept that Orion's the next in line latest when the Queen is dead). Nothing hints at Orion continuing on that path of deceit, and even if he did, and the result was a healthy and happy population across the Empire, than wouldn't we be able to agree that he's done a good job?

.

Alright, I agree again, that having the right virtues is .... good in theory. But who does really meet all those criteria? Every single human being is stuck in reality, in a constant struggle between virtue and vice, and for the most of us, the end result is a fairly okay life with still plenty of struggles caused by vice (done ourselves and being victim of someone elses vice).

Do we need to brand us all "bad leaders of our own life now"? I think I am not sure how rigorous we need to be with our judgements. We see, we judge and nearly immediately forgive and move on for the sake of reality and life.

We can agree on the bad actions done, and we can also perhaps agree on some bad beliefs to have (although ESPECIALLY beliefs are SO prone to being NOT what they seem to be), but I personally wouldn't want to insist anyone to be "bad" or "good" wholly, just ... doing bad or good things at any given moment, based on our virtues and vices and whatever else criteria I have at that given moment.

So yeah, Orion didn't do very good in this instance, but I wouldn't say he's not cut out to be a leader. Just generally here are some qualities he has that I think can be beneficial to being a leader:

He relied on competent people (Cyran) to help with a difficult situation - he acknowledges his limits

He is a skilled swordsman and while one battle was for show, his second battle was not (Peggy) and his swordsmanship is superb - he IS skilled and CAN and is WILLING TO apply it in real situations of danger

Regardless of why, Orion shows himself to the people, builds rapport however superficial, but also in depth, I believe, with handing out aids of sort (I think it was just an NPC speech bubble or conversation) - he can read the desires of the population and is charismatic and socially adept enough to draw their attention and support

He has come to make a realization of sorts at the end, showing us that he did in fact NOT want the bloodshed Cyran caused - giving me the impression that in his heart, he DOES want good (as in, happy and healthy population/fans)

.

While we also agree, that there are no excuses for bad actions (at least if we hold everyone up to very very VERY high standards in terms of self-control), I'd like to paint a small picture of how I read his situation:

He's been raised as the new King. People like him have a different education and in all reality he should have the theoretical knowledge to go ahead and serve his role. I also VERY much belief that he was not raised to be a King out of the benevolence of the people around him, but because it's simply his role and everyone is aware of it. As Gwendolyn said, even she cannot simply make decisions. Governance is a complex thing and while Orion would be the new face of the King, he likely has just as little power as any other King before him. And I think to some extend he can feel that. He's grown up with councilors, he will govern with councilors. That is his identity - being the mannequin of the Lightbearer Empire - the King. And that is sadly it. So when this "destiny" was threatened, I dare allow him to feel extremely lost and desperate. Not just because of what the population would say if they learned the truth, but also the disappointment of the governing class, as he's a real threat to the establishment. And those in power (which is not the King alone) are always desperate to keep their power in place (no matter how good you might argue they are). The pressure is massive on Orion. This may not justify the means, but it is in Orion's favor, that he is NOT alone in this spectacle. It is stupid attempt to save face and continue tradition, but given how quick the population was to break anyone's social neck based on "drama" and "loss of face", it was well worth to risk a charade (that should have gone well if it hadn't been for frikkin' Merlin (and Rolan NOW for some reason) ! XD)

.

After all that... one thing remains: Kazim.

He could really break Orion's neck, in terms of good and bad actions. Well, frankly Kazim is already proof for a VERY BAD action by Orion. But... we still don't know the details. While I think from the royal perspective, Orion could more or less "easily" be redeemed, I fear pulling that off with Kazim is more difficult. BUT knowing AFKJ, I have the feeling they might perhaps find a very strange and unexpected solution for that. xD

Okay, that's all my brain can manage for now. I am sure I have plenty of weak-spots, so pick any and hit hard! xD

[audaciousstarpupil]

orion was likely raised to be king, taught all of the virtues he needed to follow, and yet he still decided to undermine them all and try to take the crown and con the people of savannah into thinking he was a hero in the process. he was not thinking about the people, only himself and his desire to be king — that is why i believe he could not draw excalibur. the criteria, in my opinion, is the ability to think for your people and empire above all else. even if i think he's a good person at heart, he simply does not understand the title he was trying to achieve.

i do agree that orion would've called things off if people actually got hurt (physically at least). once cyran summons the dead soldiers, orion breaks down and starts to wonder what he's done, and then saves peggy when she's attacked. he didn't want anyone to be hurt, but i don't think that makes the manipulation of the nobles okay. also, nothing hints at orion stopping his path of deceit either. he went as far as binding a relative to keep his secret; there's no telling what else he would've done to keep that secret if he became king. sure, like you said, orion kept the nobility happy and earned their favor, but it's hard for us to know if that was genuine, or if it was all a part of his ploy to take the throne. in my opinion, ignorance is not bliss, and it's likely that is the state Orion would've left his people in.

i agree that no one is wholly good or bad either — we only do stupid things that hurt people, whether intentionally or not, and most of the time, people forgive and move on. orion could easily fall in the category of good person who messed up (still can't make any definitive statements because of kazim; he's a frequent thorn in my side lol), but because of his inability to put his people first, he could not draw the excalibur and why i don't think he'd make a good leader by the lightbearer empire's standards.

your argument does make me curious if there have been rulers who could draw the sword, and later were unable to because, as you've stated, power comes with inherent corruption.

i also want to add that i love your perspective of orion's upbringing. being groomed to be a ruler from a young age is not easy, and it makes since for him to do anything to achieve that position, whether it be for identity or power reasons. i've always wondered how his mother influenced him (she had to be the one to teach him to hide who he is, and i wonder of she was the first one to cut off his wings), and i like this perspective of everyone and everything working against him, at least in his eyes, and you're so right about the nobility and the rest of the people of savannah — had they found out about his parentage, orion would've been ridiculed and destroyed in the press, and i understand his thought process. it doesn't make his actions okay by any means, but it doesn't make them more understandable.

at the end of the day, i really think orion's ability to be redeemed depends on how lilith handles kazim. right now, he seems primed for redemption, but kazim will be the make or break moment.

[windmaedchen-oceanhorn]

Yeah, let's get this straight: there's nothing personal involved and I really do get your point, even agree with it. It's not like only one view here is the "right" one.

Your question about "who might be unable to draw the sword a second time" suggests that they did wield the sword regularly or had to redraw periodically? To be honest, I assume the "drawing the sword thing" has long turned into a mere symbolic act, performed just once.

That also raises the interesting question of what happened if the heir COULDN"T draw the sword? In 2000 years, they had always kids that grew up worthy in Excalibur's eyes? Really? And according to Hendrik never once had the Queen to reign (yeah sure), so if Peggy was to claim the Throne, she'd be the first Queen Regent by descent? Or will her husband be the King Regent (and will he have to draw the sword)? Either way, Hendrik was a little silly to assume both King and now his Queen actually reign without their Council. It's an apparatus and you can claim it runs according to the Regents will, but the will of the Regent is also dictated by his/her surrounding so... give and take.

I guess, that also a reason why I'd not think Orion's by default a bad ruler. He doesn't have much choice as ruler anyway.

But I also see the whole thinking about the citizens priority. It's certainly desirable and morally admirable to live life in such a way that not only you, but also your community benefits. Merlin embodies this ideal.

Orion does indeed not.

Let's see where the Rep Quests -- I mean, where the eventual possible epilogue brings us.

[audaciousstarpupil]

at least nowadays, drawing excalibur seems to be totally ceremonial and only drawn once (especially when we consider the reactions to peggy trying to draw it). maybe during wartimes it could be drawn (its original purpose was to fight against hypogean's after all), but even then, i doubt many rulers were fighting personally. it's still interesting to ponder what would happen if a ruler couldn't draw the sword anymore — would they have to abdicate the throne?

unfortunately, i have to assume the lightbearer empire hasn't had any queens rule due to the fact that they weren't allowed to even attempt to draw excalibur, eldest or not. peggy might be the lightbearer empire's queen mary or queen elizabeth i: they've run out of other options, so they have to turn to the daughter(s) as a last resort.

still, 2000 years is a long time to keep the same family in charge and never have someone deemed unworthy of the title. there had to be at least one right? (orion excluded as we don't know if he could draw the sword or not.) maybe their names were stricken from all records? maybe it was that shameful?

idk it seems like everyone besides rolan doesn't know how excalibur actually works, at least not in detail.

i can totally see your point with orion not having much of a say as ruler anyway, given his council and how he'd have to keep his people happy. as you pointed out earlier, he did take advice from cyran (someone who he should've been able to trust and knew more than him), so it's likely he would've continued to ask for help. depending on who he surrounded himself with, that could be good or bad lol.

also nothing personal with me either! i wrote my reply right after i woke up, so sorry if it came off like i was upset or being rude. i had a lot of fun reading your takes, and it gave me a new perspective; like you said, there's really no right viewpoint here, and i agree with a lot of what you said!

thanks for humoring me :>

[crystallizsch]

one of my fave things about afkj is how the menu screen changes depending on where you are in the story

anyways i just finished crown of ashes—

[basiliscusart]

Cyran

The new season gave my darling Cyran a cool redesign for a couple of scenes… and then immediately made me cry my eyes out. So on that note – officially starting my tumblr blog + AFK Journey fanart dump

[the-collector-blog]

thought this line from dolly was interesting. i wonder if this is true for his character, or if it just made sense as knowledge before playing the season story. (after all, she also said he was the eldest child of king maximillian. which..... who's gonna tell her)

id: "he doesn't choose evil for its own sake. but if reaching his goal means taking a darker path, he will take it without flinching." /end id

[ulfryr]

Made with love for every detail 💜

[weeei-haw]

Wanted to edit this one since.. well you know

[lucidsprings]

I'll start posting more afk journey fanart once artfight is over (I heard the fandom isn't a desert here so I'll start posting my stuff here 🤍)

silly animation

i love my husband sm

pslsplspsslls

~

[my-maehem]

Mad Merlin sketch >:(

Because what the hell are the AFKJ devs thinking?

Rant

First it was the excessive meta units…

Then it was the forced merge which killed my 2 year guild I cherished…

Shoved into a district with no previous allied servers…

Sudden PvP focus…

“Strategic” AFK stages (aka not ‘AFK’ stages)…

No guild event, BD is trash…

Clash is said to only have 30 participants from each guild…?

Now there’s no reputation quest, with the added “no voyage wonder next season”

At this point this game is being stripped of the things I loved the most: A small community of friends, enjoyable AFK stage progression, and most importantly the lore…

I think what makes me more upset is that they didn’t even mention the removal of reputation quests, they just did it.

I get it, they need money. It’s bright as day that revenue has dropped and just continues to drop. But the way they’re going about it just feels like a AFK Arena 2.0. Which idk what I was expecting, it’s Lilith. Maybe I hoped that this one would last, that it wouldn’t cave in on itself.

I’ve just been so upset since this season started… and seeing more people talk about it has made me want to put my foot down.

Actually I’ve been upset since the last contest finished. Never said it publicly but I didn’t win anything, not even just 1k diamonds or whatever. 3 submissions with 1 large artwork I spent a whole month on. To this day it still feels suspicious. Didn’t bother to ask support since I knew I would get some AI response unless I spent more money for the VIP treatment (which is absolute bullshit btw)

This will be the last contest I participate in, as I’m pretty much almost done with the artwork anyways. I wanted to do more but I’ve pretty much lost motivation. The $400 reduction to the winnings is such a mood killer too.

At this point I might just adopt Merlin and Cyran as my own OCs and make my own spin off on the lore.

I’ve also wanted to put my actual OCs (Myra and Grim) into the AFKJ universe, like draw them out as collab heros and I was gonna share it as an April fools joke next year. I might still do it for shiz and giggles… idk.

I’m just really bummed out and I think I need a break from this game :(

[thewaffleofsociety]

A drag path but it's our dear Magister not knowing who they are and yet the people around them spoke highly of their magic and adventures

[the-collector-blog]

WHAJDJDHSKFJDKFJSIDOFMFBFBFKDBDDJDKHJDDKFNFWAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

[audaciousstarpupil]

can i mention how good the voice acting was this season?

gwyneth and hendrick blew me away; like i genuinely felt like i was interrupting something during their argument.

prince orion was stellar as well; the way he had two different tones when he was pretending to be a kind prince vs when he was talking to kazim. and how you could hear the angry/frustrated undertones when merlin and gwyneth foiled his spider plan.

and cyran... he usually has a smooth cadence, even if he's upset, and i loved seeing him lose his shit.

[audaciousstarpupil]

i'm sooo normal about lamentis don't even worry about it...

[gyugerine]

미라엘이 너무 좋아

[divinity-gaming]

God Cassadee has such a wonderful family ;;

I love her parents so much!! Oh my god they LOVE their daughter and are so supportive of her holy snot! I was so worried there was going to be like this sad backstory where they just don’t really understand or fully back this support for her since they don’t have magic themselves. But to see them literally doing anything for their daughter is so wonderful

THEN EVEN CASSADEE’S CAT IS SUPPORTIVE OF HER OH MY GODDDDDD

AHHHHHHHHHH I LOVE THIS FAMILY

[audaciousstarpupil]

oh, the parallels between cyran and orion and merlin and peggy/rolan.

cyran and orion both desire power; cyran wants to be the greatest mage (or, really, just best merlin), and orion wants to be king. but no matter how much they fight for that power, they can never get what they want because their intentions are not in the right place.

one cannot simply manipulate their way into either position — ruler or merlin.

to become ruler of the lightbearer empire, one has to draw excalibur, a sword that can only be drawn by those who truly think for the people, who would truly sacrifice for their realm, and lead the empire toward the light. these are all traits orion lacks — all of his actions have been out of self preservation, of people not discovering his lineage, even going as far as binding his own relative to keep him quiet. whether or not he was rolan's true descendant, i don't think he could've pulled out the sword.

peggy, on the other hand, attempted to draw excalibur to save her people. she was not thinking about becoming queen in that moment of peril; she was acting on the instinct to protect those around her regardless of the consequences, and if excalibur had not been replaced, i believe she could have drawn it then. she embodies what a true leader of the lightbearer empire should be, embodies everything that orion is not.

(it makes me wonder if the whole "descendent of rolan" thing is a myth, something twisted throughout history. i wonder if prince orion had not gone down a dark path, if he cared more about his people than his own gains, that he could have drawn excalibur, bastard child or not.)

how to become merlin is still vague, though we know they are chosen by their predecessor and are the most powerful mage in all of esperia. however, i doubt they are chosen on magical prowess alone. the first seat is something close to dura, and seems to be a protector, a last line of defense; just like ruler of the lightbearer empire, merlins have to be willing to sacrifice themselves for the greater good, for the betterment of esperia. they are no longer a person beyond their title, beyond their duty — they are merlin first and foremost, and nothing more.

something that became very clear during cyran's spiral is that he cannot understand merlin's kindness, their selflessness — you chose to sacrifice yourself for this pathetic world... power enough to steer the world, and you treated it like something inconvenient. cyran attributes power to personal gain; merlin has not used their power to bring esperia to its knees, has chosen to stay in the background instead of seize control. cyran cannot understand why, so much so that he distorts merlin's motivations in his mind.

both cyran and orion thought of these titles (merlin and king) as something owed to them; in their eyes, they had earned them, something they have a right to; but they do not understand these titles for what they truly are, and that is why they keep falling short.

[windmaedchen-oceanhorn]

Hey again, I will reblog this time for my response. Perhaps I can try to formulate my idea differently, too, one more time, as my response was hasty and I believe that unless you have taken the time to express your thought in spoken/written word - you haven't thought at all. So let me think. xD

.

Reading over your posts again, this is the gist (ignoring Cyran, focused on Orion):

"Orion's behavior shows that he believes he should be king and is ready to play dirty to achieve it. Which also shows that he hasn't understood (or lives by) what makes a good ruler, which in turn excludes him from being able to pull Excalibur."

And once more, you state that: "Orion lacks the qualities necessary to be a king."

.

What interests me here is the actual criteria you have put in place to come to this conclusion? Now, I gotta admit, I actually agree with you. Humans have and believe in virtues for a reason after all, and when directly pressed, nobody would agree that lying and deceit are "good" things to do - because they will backfire one way or another. That's just one of many examples possible.

And yet, can we apply such broadly universal standards to determine a "good versus bad" leader? What are your expectations in a leader (king or chancellor or president)? And is that measure by which you determine that actually accurate and trustworthy? 

Keep in mind that any King rightfully chosen by Excalibur can turn out to be a terrible ruler in many ways, simply because

(a) Excalibur decides based on Dura's magic and Dura is "human" with all the human biases we can have, so who's to say her choices are flawless? (For this reason I dislike "truth-magic" because HOW can magic determine what is true and what is not?)

and (b) that wonderful human can be so righteously blinded and ideological that they do more harm than good despite being fully convinced that they are serving the people.

.

I concur that the method by which Orion tried to secure him the crown was very questionable and based on that, one might be inclined to deduce that he'd continue to govern the same way. But, I want to point out that Orion didn't (as far as we know) kill the King, nor did he allow anyone to be harmed. Discomfort was certainly desired but if anything had truly threatened any of the people involved, I think Orion would have done everything to help. And this was merely to protect the face of the royal family (not just his own) and continue to meet expectations from literally everyone (except the opposition, but even they have to accept that Orion's the next in line latest when the Queen is dead). Nothing hints at Orion continuing on that path of deceit, and even if he did, and the result was a healthy and happy population across the Empire, than wouldn't we be able to agree that he's done a good job?

.

Alright, I agree again, that having the right virtues is .... good in theory. But who does really meet all those criteria? Every single human being is stuck in reality, in a constant struggle between virtue and vice, and for the most of us, the end result is a fairly okay life with still plenty of struggles caused by vice (done ourselves and being victim of someone elses vice).

Do we need to brand us all "bad leaders of our own life now"? I think I am not sure how rigorous we need to be with our judgements. We see, we judge and nearly immediately forgive and move on for the sake of reality and life.

We can agree on the bad actions done, and we can also perhaps agree on some bad beliefs to have (although ESPECIALLY beliefs are SO prone to being NOT what they seem to be), but I personally wouldn't want to insist anyone to be "bad" or "good" wholly, just ... doing bad or good things at any given moment, based on our virtues and vices and whatever else criteria I have at that given moment.

So yeah, Orion didn't do very good in this instance, but I wouldn't say he's not cut out to be a leader. Just generally here are some qualities he has that I think can be beneficial to being a leader:

He relied on competent people (Cyran) to help with a difficult situation - he acknowledges his limits

He is a skilled swordsman and while one battle was for show, his second battle was not (Peggy) and his swordsmanship is superb - he IS skilled and CAN and is WILLING TO apply it in real situations of danger

Regardless of why, Orion shows himself to the people, builds rapport however superficial, but also in depth, I believe, with handing out aids of sort (I think it was just an NPC speech bubble or conversation) - he can read the desires of the population and is charismatic and socially adept enough to draw their attention and support

He has come to make a realization of sorts at the end, showing us that he did in fact NOT want the bloodshed Cyran caused - giving me the impression that in his heart, he DOES want good (as in, happy and healthy population/fans)

.

While we also agree, that there are no excuses for bad actions (at least if we hold everyone up to very very VERY high standards in terms of self-control), I'd like to paint a small picture of how I read his situation:

He's been raised as the new King. People like him have a different education and in all reality he should have the theoretical knowledge to go ahead and serve his role. I also VERY much belief that he was not raised to be a King out of the benevolence of the people around him, but because it's simply his role and everyone is aware of it. As Gwendolyn said, even she cannot simply make decisions. Governance is a complex thing and while Orion would be the new face of the King, he likely has just as little power as any other King before him. And I think to some extend he can feel that. He's grown up with councilors, he will govern with councilors. That is his identity - being the mannequin of the Lightbearer Empire - the King. And that is sadly it. So when this "destiny" was threatened, I dare allow him to feel extremely lost and desperate. Not just because of what the population would say if they learned the truth, but also the disappointment of the governing class, as he's a real threat to the establishment. And those in power (which is not the King alone) are always desperate to keep their power in place (no matter how good you might argue they are). The pressure is massive on Orion. This may not justify the means, but it is in Orion's favor, that he is NOT alone in this spectacle. It is stupid attempt to save face and continue tradition, but given how quick the population was to break anyone's social neck based on "drama" and "loss of face", it was well worth to risk a charade (that should have gone well if it hadn't been for frikkin' Merlin (and Rolan NOW for some reason) ! XD)

.

After all that... one thing remains: Kazim.

He could really break Orion's neck, in terms of good and bad actions. Well, frankly Kazim is already proof for a VERY BAD action by Orion. But... we still don't know the details. While I think from the royal perspective, Orion could more or less "easily" be redeemed, I fear pulling that off with Kazim is more difficult. BUT knowing AFKJ, I have the feeling they might perhaps find a very strange and unexpected solution for that. xD

Okay, that's all my brain can manage for now. I am sure I have plenty of weak-spots, so pick any and hit hard! xD

[audaciousstarpupil]

orion was likely raised to be king, taught all of the virtues he needed to follow, and yet he still decided to undermine them all and try to take the crown and con the people of savannah into thinking he was a hero in the process. he was not thinking about the people, only himself and his desire to be king — that is why i believe he could not draw excalibur. the criteria, in my opinion, is the ability to think for your people and empire above all else. even if i think he's a good person at heart, he simply does not understand the title he was trying to achieve.

i do agree that orion would've called things off if people actually got hurt (physically at least). once cyran summons the dead soldiers, orion breaks down and starts to wonder what he's done, and then saves peggy when she's attacked. he didn't want anyone to be hurt, but i don't think that makes the manipulation of the nobles okay. also, nothing hints at orion stopping his path of deceit either. he went as far as binding a relative to keep his secret; there's no telling what else he would've done to keep that secret if he became king. sure, like you said, orion kept the nobility happy and earned their favor, but it's hard for us to know if that was genuine, or if it was all a part of his ploy to take the throne. in my opinion, ignorance is not bliss, and it's likely that is the state Orion would've left his people in.

i agree that no one is wholly good or bad either — we only do stupid things that hurt people, whether intentionally or not, and most of the time, people forgive and move on. orion could easily fall in the category of good person who messed up (still can't make any definitive statements because of kazim; he's a frequent thorn in my side lol), but because of his inability to put his people first, he could not draw the excalibur and why i don't think he'd make a good leader by the lightbearer empire's standards.

your argument does make me curious if there have been rulers who could draw the sword, and later were unable to because, as you've stated, power comes with inherent corruption.

i also want to add that i love your perspective of orion's upbringing. being groomed to be a ruler from a young age is not easy, and it makes since for him to do anything to achieve that position, whether it be for identity or power reasons. i've always wondered how his mother influenced him (she had to be the one to teach him to hide who he is, and i wonder of she was the first one to cut off his wings), and i like this perspective of everyone and everything working against him, at least in his eyes, and you're so right about the nobility and the rest of the people of savannah — had they found out about his parentage, orion would've been ridiculed and destroyed in the press, and i understand his thought process. it doesn't make his actions okay by any means, but it doesn't make them more understandable.

at the end of the day, i really think orion's ability to be redeemed depends on how lilith handles kazim. right now, he seems primed for redemption, but kazim will be the make or break moment.