Thinking too much about fictional characters

[cassiopeajelly]

Tle and Firstone both were amazing in DMD land 3 today. I see that the sexual tension of their stage show is the point of the performance most people are taking about (which is justified). But they also just sounded amazing together in both their songs. AuAu was right to call theirs out ahead of time as impressive. Also, Tle harmonizing with NuNew in the opening song, and both Tle and Firstone featuring in the DMD vocal section just reminded me again why I love them so much. They just sound amazing, separately and together.

I don't know much about music, but I think Firstone is generally recognized as the more technically skilled singer (and I do love his voice for sure). But Tle just has a tone to his singing voice that I just adore. And when they sing together, it's just beautiful. I don't understand why there are not people beating down their door with original songs to sing. I really hope that Tle debuts on the music side soon and I desperately hope for an album from both of them filled with solo and duo songs soon. Please, please! I can wait to the end of the year for You(r)tuber if I have to if I get new music to tide me over.

[firstkanaphans]

I really feel like Thai fans just have it out specifically for TleFirstone. Why is it easier to pretend they’re “queerbaiting” than dating? And why do they keep pushing this narrative that Firstone is only pretending to be femme? I feel like other CPs wouldn’t be getting this much flack, but maybe I’m just naive.

[cassiopeajelly]

I don't know how widespread this is because I keep my feeds pretty curated but I find this take so ridiculous. Tle and Firstone are "queerbaiting" at Songkran and yet they posted nothing at all for Valentines day? A prime time when people were expecting fan service? Get out of here with that nonsense.

[cassiopeajelly]

Ok, so this is bubbling up now in the TleFirstone fandom and I dislike it enough that I feel the need to say something.   I really, really dislike how interfans talk about New Siwaj Sawatmaneekul.  He is supposedly the director of You(r)tuber and I am seeing western interfans complain and demand that the director be changed.  I get that people might not like his body of work and may prefer someone else and that is ok.  But the way they talk about him is just so mean spirited and mean girls if you know what I mean.  Like he is not a real person so you can say whatever you want about him.  Like he is toxic for any of the bl actors to work with.  I saw some TleFirstone fans complaining and someone popped up and said- I don’t know about this, tell me the tea so I can hate it too, and the op then listed a bunch of criticisms that honestly didn’t even make much sense to me but were very harsh.

This level of vitriol should be reserved for directors/producers/whatever who are actually toxic, i.e. abusive emotionally, physically, sexually, or obviously misogynistic or homophonic, ect.  Not for someone whose works of art you just don’t like. Acting like your favs will be corrupted or destroyed somehow just by working with him for one show is awful and disrespectful.

Plus, it seems completely out of step with how the Thai audience receives him.  He is getting tons of work (his overly packed schedule I do think is a legitimate concern), so his shows must be doing well with the Thai fans.  I was afraid that Fourever you would never get to the second set of stories but the show did well enough to not only get a commitment to do the second half, but they added a story.  And they got to it quickly too which means the investment came quickly!  As a western inter fan myself, I always try to remember that I am a guest in this space and I am not the target audience.  I should not expect to be catered to and I find other interfans either forget that or don’t even think of it.  Western interfans complaining and being mean are not going to change how the Thai bl industry works. New Siwaj is not going anywhere, he has a bunch of shows on the docket so people are going to have to get over it or I guess they will just be miserable about it which makes the fandom so unpleasant to be in. Unfortunately, I know which approach is more likely.

That is not to say that you can’t criticize him, of course you can.  In the first season of Fourever you, there were some bad continuity issues with Hill and Ter’s story that people have legitimately criticized.  Also their part dragged on for too long, which seemed to be acknowledged by the people making the show and led to 2 special episodes for Johan and North. But most of what I see is not actual criticism, people are not watching his work and making judgments on their own, they are just pilling on, passing around the same criticisms that get worst in every mention like a bad game of telephone.  And he is often being blamed for everything people didn’t like in a series, giving a pass to all the other people involved, particularly the screenwriters.  Often the issues I see are really about the script, like in Revamp where I don’t think he actually had much to do with it. There are other people involved - writers, producers and directors and no one ever seems to lay the blame at their feet. 

I went to his mdl page to see all the shows he has been involved in and find myself even more confused by why there is such this level of hate.  Many of his shows are fine, I wouldn’t say that they are perfect, I can definitely criticize some stuff on several of the ones I have seen, but I enjoyed each one I watched and don’t think any were terrible. And finally, he created Until we meet again which is a classic in the bl space.  He was also involved in Make it Right, which I did not know.  These are both fundamentally important pieces of work in the genre and flawed or not, both contributed so much to the development of bl that I personally don’t think he even needs to do anything else to deserve high regard. Until we meet again is one of my favorites personally and I don’t think many bl series since have met its level of quality even with its imperfections (though some definitely have), though that is obviously a personal opinion.

Sorry, this got very long.  But I think what it comes back to is we all have preferences, but we should figure them out for ourselves, not just take other’s word for it and pile on with others.  And we should all try to remember that these people we are criticizing are real people and be kind and constructive with our criticisms.  Kindness seems to be in short supply everywhere unfortunately.

[cassiopeajelly]

I am sure that others have mentioned this, but I really do appreciate how the recent DMD shows have dealt with sex and intimacy.  I am particularly talking about how in both Khemjira and Duang with you, first sexual scenes between the main couple have not included penetrative sex.  The fact is that there are multiple ways to be sexually intimate with your partner and they can be just as fulfilling for those involved.  I really appreciate that especially for the first time between these characters it makes sense that they move more slowly.  Not to say that I mind when it goes from 0 to 100 if it makes sense for the characters, but that is the point, it has to make sense for them.  Jet is a very impulsive person so it makes sense to me that he would jump straight in (and Charn is very overwhelmed and willing to follow his lead).  Khem and Pharan are more reserved so it makes more sense that they would take their time (Qin too).  

Which leads me to another point, the intimate moments between these different couples feel very different, as they should given the personalities are so different.  There was a lot of joy and laughter with Charn and Jet, and a lot of reverence and maturity between Pharan and Khem.  With Duang and Qin, it felt more youthful and spontaneous in a way that makes sense for college guys.   It’s not one size fits all for the NC scenes which is very good and satisfying for someone who cares about character continuity. 

[gotmehookedonthekpop]

Do we think Bas would have curly hair if they let it do it's thing?

[cassiopeajelly]

I knew this would sound good but I didn't expect the visuals, I thought it would be them just sitting and singing. I know this wasn't a high budget thing and didn't do anything ground breaking, but they really did a lot with the lighting, locations, angles, and Tle and Firstone's acting. It really sets a mood that suits the song. Knowing that Tle and Firstone had a lot to do with the direction of the MV makes it even better and more impressive to me.

[kandadze]

Rgfjhkgdhjj we're getting the cover!!!

[cassiopeajelly]

I am so excited for this. They sounded amazing when they sung it at that Chinese New Year event.

[cassiopeajelly]

As part of my new TleFirstOne obsession, I have checked out some of the gameshows, variety shows, and interviews they have done in the last 2 months.  I generally watch to hear them sing and glean what I can with auto translate, but some recent ones were put up with good English subs which is always unexpected but deeply appreciated.  I wanted to make sure people knew about these as I found them interesting.  

This show where Tle and FirstOne do a skit with 4 other actors (and singers?) was very fun (even if some of the Thai language jokes pass me by).  The character Tle plays reminds me a bit of Jin, which I think he plays well.  This storyline was played for humor, but I could see a version of this played in an heavier, angsty way which I would enjoy. 

And this one is an interview with Tle in which talks about his childhood with the Thai group Bamm. It was also very nostalgic for my childhood (they talk about cassette tapes and playing jump rope!).  Also a Cardcaptor Sakura mention which is quality.  Plus Tle sings beautifully with Bamm.

[cassiopeajelly]

I watched seasons 1 and 2 of DMD Friendship long after they first aired and with full knowledge of who the pairs were.  Watching season 3 as it comes out has been so different because, for a while at least, it seemed like multiple combinations were possible.  It now seems that the pairs that were predicted beforehand (NorthOtto, CopperFifa, and RuyjinPatji) are the most likely outcomes so maybe it was more an editing trick than reality that all things were possible.

I am a bit sad that CopperPung or PungCopper is not happening.  I came into this show only knowing Pung and I really love him.  He is so awkward and confused in events, and yet was so good in Khemjira, I really find him endearing.  I do think that he is someone that would benefit from having a partner to help him navigate the events and bring out his personality.  Similar to how Namping has brought Keng out of his shell or Tle has helped FirstOne overcome his shyness, some of these guys can really flourish with the right partner, and Copper certainly seems able to bring out Pung’s personality. Also, I could see the vision of the kind of roles that they could play.  I think they both have the ability to do more serious, mature, even darker roles and that could have been really interesting.

Alas, it appears not to be as Copper is likely going to choose Fifa.  Which to be clear, is totally right and ok, only Copper can decide who he fits best with.  But I will mourn a little of what could have been, then get over it and enjoy the pairings that do happen. 

I also have the impression that Wave would have picked North if he had shown any interest, but he never did. Wave is smart enough to read the writing on the wall and not waste his time.  I am happy that he got some time to shine in the most recent episode and I liked that in the preview for next week he said something like “do you want to hug a bear with me” to someone (didn’t catch who).  I look forward to seeing him in Duang for you. 

It is interesting to me that the guys said that things will not end up as people expect and yet it seems like that is exactly what is going to happen.  I guess they were just trying to build some tension.  In the end, I did very much enjoy the show and getting to know the new members who, as mentioned, I didn’t really know.  I truly hope that people not getting the ship they wanted will be kind about it and take it in stride.

[cassiopeajelly]

Long discussion of DMD Friendship

Domundi Friendship the reality is kind of a genius move by DMD.  It must be relatively cheap, quick, and easy to produce and yet provides an opportunity to help build fandoms that will invest in the new talent far beyond what they must invest in the show.  It is essentially a week or so long camp with the new talent to give them exposure to all the different kinds of things they will be asked to do - acting, singing, interviews, photo shoots, ect., and provide the beginnings of training in some of those topics.  At the same time, the guys can get to know each other and build relationships that can help them moving forward in the industry (whether that be a partner or just friendly colleagues).

I think it is interesting that so many people think that it is scripted (particularly season 2 and 3) because (and I think this is an unpopular opinion) I don’t think it is. What follows is a long discussion of how I see this show from what I know about it. If I'm missing info, feel free to kindly point me to it.

I honestly don’t think that they need to script it to get what they want out of the show and it would be a totally unnecessary bother (also remember that some of these guys are very new and may not have developed much skill in acting yet). The producers already have a super powerful tool a their disposal, editing.  All reality tv shows are heavily edited to create plot lines, some of which may be real, others not so much.  We will never see all the footage so we will never be able to judge for ourselves how much reality there is in how people are edited unless the people involved give us insight.  

We also know that the producers will push the guys to do some things, put their thumb on the scale to create drama.  For example in season one, they told Thomas to go talk to Teetee before choosing partners.  The editing made it look like Thomas was being possessive.  But in the final episode when they chat about everything, Thomas explained that he was asked to do that and the whole thing was way less dramatic than it seemed.  I am sure there are other cases where the producers stepped in (I wonder if Save was told to sit and wait to talk to AuAu after he cried with Por) and asked them do things that add to the storylines they are building but that is not the same as deciding beforehand how things are going to go or giving people an exact script to follow. 

Is the show spontaneous in the sense that couples are created on the show itself?  No, clearly not.  But that is because in season one and two, the majority of the guys already knew each other and had been working together for significant amounts of time.  So no, they did not spontaneously decide during the show who they wanted to pair with, they came in knowing who they wanted to match with.  And to me the exception that proves the rule is Firstone.  I think you could make an argument that Tle and FirstOne are the only couple (so far) that the show helped create. From a business perspective, it would have been better for Firstone to stay with Latte, they had already worked together for about a year and were cast in a show for which they had already taped a trailer.  DMD Friendship could have created some drama for the couple but had Firstone ultimately pick Latte because that would be better for the brand they were already building.  But that is not what happened.  Recently, both Firstone and P’Aof have talked about little bit about how uncertain Firstone was about his choice which ultimately led to him not choosing at all. So I think that was all relatively real as we saw it. 

If the show is scripted, what exactly does that mean?  Because some people who I have seen have said that everyone sits down before taping anything and decides what is going to happen. Does it mean just that the partners are already decided, or more than that?   Who will win each challenge and therefore get friendship time?  I’ve seen a few (not many but some) people say that the singing challenge where Patji and Pete won was predetermined which really bothers me because it undermines their skill.  All three couples sang beautifully and I enjoyed them all, but if the challenge was to sing a duet, it seems clear to me why they won.  Saying that their win was predetermined seems a bit nasty to me as it dismisses them and how hard they worked. Which I think is why people saying the whole show is scripted bothers me. 

Would scripting the show mean that AuAu’s over-competitive attitude, not winning the challenges, and resulting breakdown with Por was planned?  Obviously this is subjective, but it felt pretty real to me.  I also feel like his reaction to Save coming in late seemed pretty real (and Save has talked about why he was late which to my knowledge didn’t have anything to do with the producers).

So in conclusion, do I think DMD Friendship shows us the full reality of what went on?  No, it is heavily edited and the producers do stick their nose in at times.  Do I think that the show is scripted and made up for us to watch and therefore not reality at all?  No, I don’t think so, I do think we get some real glimpses at these guys and how the act and what they think. The answer to me is somewhere in between these two extremes.  

I don’t believe that who wins the challenges is predetermined. I also do believe that the participants do have the agency to make the final decision about who to partner with themselves, whether that happens before (more commonly) or on the show itself (or after in the case of Firstone).  All the guys I have seen address this have said that it is their choice and I choose to believe that they are not lying.  Domundi might have paired them up to act in a show together, may have given them opportunities to work to together, may even have preferences that they push for, but if the pair wants to keep working together ultimately it is up to the guys themselves. 

Season 3 is particularly interesting to a lot of us (I think) because the guys have not known each other for as long or had as many opportunities to interact. Some people say that it is obvious who is end game but it doesn’t seem like that to me. I have couples I like, but I am open to anything and it seems like (almost) anything can happen which is fun.  As long as fans remember that this is just for fun and don’t take it too seriously.  

I really think having he right partner can really help some of the guys (I also think some are ok not having a fixed partner but that is a different discussion).  In the case of my favorite pair, Tle and Firstone, I can see how much Tle has helped Firstone grow in confidence and how comfortable they are with each other (which surely helps for NC scenes).  Therefore, I mostly just hope that if the new guys want someone, they all (eventually) find someone who they are truly comfortable with and can grow with. We as fans just have to remember that they themselves are the best judges of who works for them, not us.

If you got this far, thanks for reading my rant! I of course could be wrong about all of this and I am open to respectful discussion, but this is how I see it.

[cassiopeajelly]

I am always excited for more mystery/thriller romance stories so I am watching Melody of Secrets. I do think that there is an interesting (probably good even) story in there but I just feel like the series is racing through all the plot points. I feel jerked from one development to the next, and that is reinforced by the editing. I am generally able to suspend my disbelief, but how quickly Pleng seems to move through all his emotions (both in letting Tankhun in so quickly at the beginning, to forgiving him now) just jars me and seems so unbelievable.

I wonder if this was originally supposed to be a 12 episode series that got cut down to 10? I feel like if the series slowed down a little and took it's time with these plot points, the twists would land better and the whole thing would make more sense.

I do like the reveal about Tankhun and Thunphob's relationship and that potentially Thun has a history of self harm/depression. Well not like about the latter, I just mean that these are very interesting avenues for storytelling if done right.

[cassiopeajelly]

As a result of Khemjira, I have fallen into a mild obsession with Tle and Firstone and for the first time, I am following a cp. I saw the pictures of Firstone yesterday where he looked beautiful (even though I personally hate the look of velvet lol). So I am so very sad to see all the drama today about his look and mannerisms. Part of what is so confounding to me is that if you go back to past videos all the way back to DMD friendship, you will find instances of Firstone acting and sometimes dressing in a more "feminine" way. Even as a new fan I can tell that none of this is new for him so why is it suddenly an issue?

A lot of others have had very smart responses (including Firstone himself) and several have pointed out that a person cannot queerbait. I will just post this video of Lucy Dacus very eloquently pointing out that we should let people experiment and explore both because people need to have space to do that to figure out who they are and because it lets us all live in a world that is more genuine and fun.

[cassiopeajelly]

Oh, Goddess Bless you from Death is just as Master's Sun coded as I hoped. Especially in the way Thup immediately and completely attaches to Singha. Welcome back in bl form Tae Gong-shil!

[doublel27]

I keep thinking about these two moments. And how at the very least there is 5 years between these brief moments we are given as Thai secondary school starts at 12. But it’s more likely 7-10 years between these moments.

And I just wonder what happened with them between these moments (and I have faith we are going to get them because New Siwaj loves a non-linear narrative with flashbacks). And it’s such a lovely set up because from this perspective, Jinn’s perspective, J is an asshole who is only doing this to beat him.

But I have to wonder, what is actually driving J here? And what did he try before stealing men from Jinn, and making an absolute menace of himself, to repair this moment when at 7 he teased his friend in a moment of comphet/internalized homophobia.

Because everything is structured to get a reaction and in some cases a prolonged interaction with Jinn.

Because this is J’s face when Jinn says he doesn’t care.

And this is J’s face when he pushes Jinn into being annoyed just by staring at him (and being rude)

There’s something to preferring to being met with rage rather than casual indifference. At least if Jinn hates him, J still means something to Jinn. He’s important.

And even J’s actions, while rude and two-faced, never fully cross into full cruelty or where Jinn ends up completely without power and agency.

With the incident in high school, he didn’t punch Jinn back (from what we saw) and while he played sweet for Jinn’s mom, he snf his mom both voiced that they were just playing and not to blame Jinn. and his own mom saw through his bullshit to some extent, twisted his ear, and dragged him out.

If it was all pure cruelty, he would have left Jinn to get the keys out of the tree. J was shocked when the keys flew up into the tree and he could have just shrugged and walked away and made it Jinn’s problem. But he didn’t. Because the purpose isn’t to upset or embarrass Jinn, it’s to provoke emotion and to get time to interact with Jinn. Holding the keys over Jinn’s head allowed for some physical contact that J enjoyed.

But when they ended up in the tree, J took his shoe off first to try and knock them back out for Jinn.

The biggest tell is when Beam shows up at the track, J has to keep forcing himself back to even look at Beam, because he is so focused on Jinn and Jinn’s reaction. And even at times looks concerned about how far this will push Jinn.

This is not to defend my fucked up son. He has committed all of his sins and is going about this in absolutely the wrong way. Like…worst choices beloved.

And yet…I just wonder when he learned the best way to get Jinn to look at him was to make him mad. And when he’s going to realize the way he’s been going about it will never get him what he actually wants, which is Jinn’s love.

The man is gonna need to make up for all of his sins because Jinn deserves the whole world. Look at that face!

[cassiopeajelly]

I agree with all of this but have to add that I don't think J is aware of how he really feels about Jin. Otherwise he would not seem so confused about the dreams. On the other hand, Jinn seems aware that he is still attracted to J despite everything (repeating to himself that he hates J after the bathroom incident strongly implies this to me). So this sets up an interesting dynamic where they are at different points of awareness of feelings.

[cassiopeajelly]

I needed a day or so for the Khemjira finale to settle for me because I was so overwhelmed by it.  I was reasonably confident that they would stick the landing mostly because of how true to the story they have been.  Which is what I really want to take a minute to appreciate here.  I think the screenwriters did an amazing job with this series, taking the best parts of the story, changing some things, dropping others and even adding things.  

A book an a tv series are fundamentally different media and some things that will work in one will not work in the other. Too often though, in romances and BL in particular, some of the storytelling is minimized to focus on the romance.  Khemjira stayed true to the intentions of the novel and made sure not make this mistake. 

A great cast such as the one here can cover a multitude of sins in my opinion, but in this case they didn’t need to.  I think the story always being central really set this series apart and worked together with the great cast and cinematography to make something really special.

In the end, this is a beautiful story about love in all its forms (romantic, maternal/paternal, platonic, and of community), all of which mattered and played a part. It is a story of sacrifice and forgiveness and I really loved it.  Congrats to all involved in making such a beautiful piece of art. 

[cassiopeajelly]

I wanted to put down something that I expect will happen regarding Charn and Jet in episode 11 just to see if I am right or not.  This includes some slight novel spoilers (though I am keeping them vague) so I am going to put it under the cut.

We see in the preview that something happens to Charn (and Jet actually).  I won’t go into the details about what happened other than to say that in the novel, this is where Charn and Jet see their past lives in full.  In the series, they have shown us pieces of this, but we have yet to see how Jin and Da’s story resolves.  I think this was on purpose because they are saving it for this moment.  So I think in ep 11 we will get

Flash back to Jin and Da (probably the last one of the series)

We see what happened to them

We get a Jin and Da kiss.  (I think they have been holding this back for the most dramatic moment which would be here.  I would note that they defiantly could do more than a kiss and it would fit the plot, though maybe not the tone of episode 11. Either way, I don’t think we should get our hopes up for more).

I think doing it this way maximizes the drama of the story and the screenwriters/director have been very intentional and skillful in how they have been using flashbacks throughout the series. 

I feel sure about point 1 and 2, 3 is the one with some doubt but I really hope they go for it.

[cassiopeajelly]

A couple of thoughts about Khemjira ep 10.

One of the things that I think makes Khemjira such a great, well-written series is the focus it puts on all relationships.  Rather than just being totally focused on the romance, the series makes a point of stressing other types of love (beautifully summarized by this post) which I think makes the characters feel more fleshed out and real.  We get to see different aspects of these characters as evidenced by all the types of love they feel, not just one.  The time the series has invested in showing these relationships is paying dividends now. 

The importance of community and friendship were particularly highlighted in this episode, both of which I appreciated.  Pharan’s relationship with the village does indeed go both ways, and it was great to see him reminded of that.  As much as he loves and protects them, the villagers also love and want to help Pharan.  He is not alone, he just has to let them in.

As for friendship, I think you could rightly argue that Jet and Khem are in fact the central relationship of the series and that Jet is the one who saves Khem in the end.  Pharan may be the one with the plan and powers to overcome Ramphueng, but that only happens because Jet brings Khem to Pharan and insists he helps (even when Pharan refuses).  Jet also gives Khem to will to live at various points, getting him to hope which is the first step to saving himself (helping Khem believe it is even possible to survive the curse).  And when Khem did not believe in his ability to survive, he kept living for Jet (and Charn’s) sake, because they were doing so much to keep him going. In the best world we would all live for ourselves but sometimes you do need to live for others to get you through the darkest times, just to keep yourself going.  I love that we got the flashback to when Khem and Jet first met and I think it was very smart of them to withhold those scenes until now when they pack the biggest emotional punch.