Hyperprivileged Bi™

Bi, slightly ace-spec, evil. Contains far too many opinions who forgot to wear their prettiest dresses today, and showed up bitter, angry, and in sweatpants, cursing like a sailor. Probably your worst nightmare because I, like, breathe and stuff. Constantly angry. Side blog. She/her.

[courteousmingler]

okay but like. why do cis gays speak as though their views carry more weight in regards to LGBT issues than any other group in this community?

like it’s almost never stated explicitly, but it’s a tone that’s ever-present.

they speak of the community as though it is a kingdom that they are the benign rulers of.

beyond “you’re either LGBT or you aren’t!” there’s this unspoken (but lawfully abided by) hierarchy.  and i specify cis gays because i actually notice bisexuals being shat on by this community dynamic more often than even i myself am.

and the lower you are on it the easier it is for your identity’s LGBT status to be called into question. the thinner your ice is. 

if cis gays are displeased with your rowdy behavior you bet your ass they’ll slam their gavel and call into question the legitimacy of your identity, personhood, and your right to be in the only space in which you’re relatively safe from violence. 

something that inconveniences cis gays is viewed as being a far greater threat to the LGBT community than something that kills trans women. 

i saw a post recently that mentioned both how micro-labeling validates a lot of LGBT folks in a way that saves lives, but also that it made figuring out you’re A Cis Gay a more time consuming process and therefore micro-labeling should be done away with.

all i know is that if a cis person ever talks about LGBT issues as though i am a beloved subject in Their kingdom and that my status as a ‘citizen’ relies on My loyalty and obedience i’m gonna hurt someone.

because here on tumblr? analysis of power dynamics and oppression isn’t based in material data. its goal isn’t to protect those most at risk.

[uncreative-queer]

That is,,, exactly what it feels like

[ipswitch-north]

Another thing I really don’t get on this site is this recurring attitude of ‘people of your orientation haven’t suffered enough in the past to be part of the LGBT community’ as if it were some kind of pity party? I thought the community was created so sexual, romantic, and gender minorities could provide each other support and solidarity, strength in numbers, and to create positive social change in the world? And yet I’ve seen even bisexuals, who are in the original name, shunted off to the side for being ‘straight passing’ and ‘not gay enough’. Isn’t this tasteless exclusion the exact attitude the community was created against?

[tempest-caller]

^^

And what is especially frustrating is when someone says anything about any of this, we get told that we just hate gay people, that we are even oppressing them, and reminded that they don’t oppress us and are oppressed by the straights as if we don’t know that.

But many on tumblr will hate whole orientations and genders if they even suspect that a few members of the group are homophobic, and we get told they are allowed to call out homophobia no matter who it comes from so it’s okay if they hate entire identities and everyone with them. That being LGBTQIA+ doesn’t give anyone a pass on homophobia… even though supposedly it gives them a pass on biphobia, transphobia, queerphobia, panphobia, aphobia, etc.

Anyone who defends themselves to someone on tumblr who happens to be gay is homophobic, but tumblr cis gays attacking and hating all people within an orientation or gender is okay for some reason.

And that makes it so difficult to speak out, to say, “Hey, the way you are treating people is wrong,” because you get branded a homophobe for it. They never listen to your actual point or argument. They don’t get that you aren’t attacking them for their orientation but rather asking them not to mistreat other orientations and to respect non cis people.

I’ve seen posts saying, “Using cis/white/neurotypical/able bodied/whatever before the word gay doesn’t make your comment less homophobic.” In other words, no one can every point out any privileged behavior in certain parts of the gay community or bigotry from gay people privileged on another axis because to say anything less than positive about any gay person is automatically homophobic. How can we ever address real issues in the community if that is the attitude people have?

I wish we were allowed to say, “Hey, the way you as an individual do x thing is bad” or “Hey, this behavior common with people in your group is bad” without them hearing, “Hey, you being gay is bad.” Because that’s not what is being said, at all. And none of us feel that way.

And this really does seem to be a mostly tumblr thing, but it makes me anxious to enter LGBTQIA+ and queer spaces in real life.

I feel scared just talking about this at all, because this problem is so prevalent.

People shouldn’t have to be afraid of wanting respect, solidarity, and basic human decency. Shouldn’t have to be afraid of calling out behavior that hurts them. Of asking people to support and stand up for them rather than make them feel next to nothing.

Yet here we are.

[iron-sunrise]

“they speak of the community as though it is a kingdom that they are the benign rulers of.” Well thats genuinely what they think.

[haedonists]

When I keep saying that a ludicrous amount of young (cis) gay dudes and lesbians here on Tumblr view the community not as an EQUALITY-BASED community, but as a HIERARCHY-BASED one, with themselves right at the top? This is precisely what I mean.

And all of the above nonsense comes from two radfem-authored ideas:

exclusively-same-sex-attracted people are the most oppressed members of the community, full-stop

the community is primarily for the needs of exclusively-same-sex-attracted people with exceptions to others if they prioritize their same-sex-attraction.

That’s how you end up with everything from circular, never-ending spirals of Oppression Olympics and a complete inability of young cis gay dudes and lesbians to accept accountability for behavior and attitudes toward other marginalized orientations.

[evil-bihet-grace]

Hey, sorry, I swear I still exist guys. I just don’t use this blog very much? It stressed me out after a while but I do reblog things from time to time so I’m not dead, I’m just very very busy with life atm and this blog in particular can be kind of overwhelming. Hope everyone’s well though! Have a great day my good pals

[evil-bihet-grace]

This is their friend btw, feel free to ban a bitch

[evil-bihet-grace]

Fun and exciting twist

Their friend decided to completely twist my words asking someone to please be more respectful of abuse survivors, and when I clarified what I actually said, they just blocked me? So please honestly as a personal favor can y’all report these people bc having my concerns as a survivor brushed off in a really mean way just because I defended aces is like..... really not a good feeling and it’s actually fucking me up

[evil-bihet-grace]

If anyone wants to go ahead and report “azulapologist” on Twitter for being an acephobic troll and general all-around bitch (or, more concisely, for targeted harassment) you should feel free :)))

[beepbopbekenc-deactivated201708]

this is how you ally.

[thelibrawrian-deactivated201912]

I’m so glad I came across this because I just finished Simon last night and I have to admit that that small moment, a throwaway comment really, did ping my radar as annoying and just wrong. It’s the kind of thing that would make me rev up for a fight IRL, but in the book, I do think that it’s a fairly believable viewpoint for a 17 year-old white boy from Georgia to have. It’s great to see Becky discussing the impact of that line though and recognizing that it’s not something she wants to perpetuate in the future, even if it was meant to be a faulty 17 year-old opinion in-verse.

[fixyourwritinghabits]

This is a really good example of something we’ve talked about a lot (and is frequently misunderstood). Characters should have misconceptions and false ideas about their world. That’s what makes them people. If they go unchallenged, though, even if what you intended to be clearly wrong may not come off that way. 

[ideletedformenotyou-deactivated]

lets stop pretending bi people have it harder than us, they dont also lesbians have a disadvantage because theyre women, strictly speaking about being gay they absolutely have it easier than gay men no ones saying yall arent suffering, but its different and its not a competition

[evil-bihet-grace]

Imagine saying “it’s not a competition” right after you’ve said that bi women and lesbians have it so much easier than you. It’s only not a competition to you because you think you’re winning, and god forbid anyone else talk about their difficulties as if your life isn’t the Tragically Hardest Ever Boo Fucking Hoo.

Anyway if you want to learn some real facts instead of hiding out in your ignorant feelings, here’s some actual numbers. https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/nisvs_sofindings.pdf

[beepbopbekenc-deactivated201708]

[broodingsoul]

someone show this apology to rupaul

[scorched-scales-deactivated2018]

Just wanted to point out. That’s how an appology should be done. An acknowledgment that you hurt someone, what you’re going to do better next time. An explanation of your reasoning of your actions without attempting to make an excuse.

[hobnob-69]

a….poloGy…?

[skumrag666]

I’m sorry but like even tho this is just a movie this is a feeling very known in the gay community and while yes we shouldnt feel this way but y'all cant act like lesbians and bi women dont have it easier bc of the society we live in yea it sucks we feel this way bc they are fetishized but its a real feeling like y'all can act like im wrong bc I know people will get pissed but y'all can kiss in public y'all can walk holding hands in public y'all can do so much more and not face criticism and thats not something gay men have y'all do have it easier for the most part and its the truth she shouldnt be having to apologize for portraying a real emotion most gay men have

[evil-bihet-grace]

Hello! Fun fact: you’re wrong, and your ideas are dangerous.

46% of bi women are RAPED because of our fetishization. 75% are sexually assaulted. That’s “easy” to you?

Fetishization isn’t a fucking side note. It ruins our lives, our relationships, and our bodies. If you’re going to sound your uneducated, misogynistic, asshole mouth about something, you might want to know jack fucking shit about it first. Your misconceptions are pathetic and your misplaced frustration is harmful. We are being attacked in one of the worst ways possible and you don’t even give a shit.

Here’s some facts from the CDC so you can actually learn what you’re talking about: https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/nisvs_sofindings.pdf

Also, if any LBPQ women want to chime in with how it is, in fact, not easy to walk around with your girlfriend in our society, feel free to add on and teach this guy what the fuck is up!

[furbearingbrick]

a compilation of the very worst claims I’ve witnessed from the exclusionist side (mostly by no-platformed shitheels nobody listens to anymore, thankfully) in Mogai Discourse Hell™

[ungracefulace]

That moment when you remember all of these, and that depressing wave when you remember none of this was what got the people actually no platformed (if you can call it that, like rebelbaze is not really no platformed and people still reblog from them and in pretty sure a few of the other ones just stopped posting more than anything)

[hopemartyr]

The "ace calling a LGBT suicide hotline" is a real life example. In 2012, the Trevor Project announced that it was considering (just considering!) training its hotline operators how to deal with ace callers. This pissed off so, so many people, and led to the first real wave of anti-ace discourse on this website. You can look it up.

but isn’t that a good thing?? no matter what asexual people are valid but they’re not lgbt. i dont know why yall are getting condemned when churches praise you people for not having sex at all… like dont compare yourself to us when we are told to burn in hell and youre a priviledged little angel? so like dont pretend to be oppressed and dont boss around lgbt people as if you have a say in our community sorry if this is rude to say but there is no a in lgbt unless its agender

[queerautism]

‘you are valid but if you are suicidal and need support you don’t deserve resources that could literally save your life bc I don’t consider you a part of the community’

Damn I sure feel valid yeah thanks /s

[herefortheace]

Holy shit.

I want to say something about how 1) OP writes as though aces can have no other LGBT+ identities and 2) there’s the literal claim here people are privileged for being ace (also plz r u saying ppl will suddenly start placing a black woman on a pedestal and treat her as a ‘privileged little angel‘ if they find out she’s ace, like r u serious. Society doesn’t suddenly hate us less for being ace and very often ppl hate us specifically for being ace, whatever you may believe about whether or not that makes us LGBT+). This is yet another example of people treating us literally like a privileged group, and even THE privileged group whose members can have no other identities that need to be considered.

But that shit really pales in comparison to the overall message of “who cares if aces die bc of this (it’s a good thing)”. Like wow. Wow. Like literally all that was about is an organization choosing to train ppl to be able to help aces better, help them with literally staying alive

I just want “the discourse” to end.

[queering-the-void]

also. like. people weren’t just shouting on the internet. They were pushing to stop donating to the trevor project. so it wasn’t just “hey let’s make ace kids, incl lgbt ace kids, more likely to kill themselves”, it was people who would rather non-ace lgbtq suicidal kids not get support than see any support going towards ace kids.

And suicide hotlines do better when they have more callers. Seriously. I used to volunteer for a helpline, and a) it takes very little time to add a-spec friendly sensitivity training, b) expanding who’s served can lead to the hotline getting bigger (+ more grants) so can serve more people, and c) we really cover a lot, not just “purely this one concern” since you need to understand related topics, too. Only the most chronically understaffed hotlines get overwhelmed by too many callers

Also the claim that religions, esp christianity, like ace people has been debunked so many fucking times I’m not even gonna bother with that one

[justonepurpose]

This is so ugly, jfc

[gatikmaverick]

I was sent to conversion therapy by my church???? And I’m asexual?? And I was told by Christian friends that being asexual was sinful so????? What churches? Literally what churches?!

[evil-bihet-grace]

Hey @hopemartyr did you actually read and take in the things that people have told you in response to this post? I see that it's deleted but I don't know if that was because you didn't want to be refuted or if it's because you realized that what you said was grossly inappropriate.

[evil-bihet-grace]

Someone: bi people matter too!

You miserable fucking sewer gnomes: I can't BELIEVE you just LITERALLY said that ONLY bi people matter

[infiniteglitterfall]

Hooooowwwww do you feel about lesbians who claim femme is a lesbian-only term and others are appropriating it?

/cracks knuckles//rolls up sleeves/WELLL SINCE YOU ASK… :-DIntellectually, it’s not, and it is historically inaccurate to say that it is, although I can certainly see how that misconception arises. It definitely comes from the radfem community specifically, not just the lesbian community in general, and I think that this is one of the small risks in separatism, or in any situation where your information comes primarily from one group: you can end up coming to conclusions that make perfect sense but that are incorrect because they’re based on an incomplete picture. Like, personally, I have a similar cultural context – I went to a women’s college, I mostly consume media by women, most of the people I know are women – and it didn’t occur to me for AGES to be like “wait a minute, of course gay and bi men have been using that term for just as far back as any recorded lesbian use.” Or “wait a minute, why would we ever assume that term was originated by and for women in the first place, when it describes something that stands out so much more clearly if you are presenting and/or identifying as a guy?” I didn’t think to even research that stuff. I tripped over it when I started googling the origins of the term “femme” and was suddenly hit by tons of stuff about Polari, and gay and bi male history, and was like “oh crap of course.” But you asked how I feel. And how I feel about it is annoyed and despairing, by turns. (And a little bit of schadenfreude, to know that the term “butch” was actually appropriated from the Black community in the first place. There’s a horrifying but almost satisfying amount of irony in seeing people tell everybody else they can’t use a term that it turns out they stole from another part of their community in the first place. It’s the lingustic equivalent of white people opposing immigration.) What bothers me about it is not that I specifically care so much about the term “femme”. It’s two things, I guess. First, it’s how EMPHATICALLY people insist that the term is “created by lesbians, for lesbians only,” and how vigorously people use that to shut down bi women. And it’s weird that I’ve never thought about this before, but iirc, I’ve ONLY seen people tell bi and maybe asexual women that they can’t use the term “femme.” Not straight women. Not men of any stripe. (I’ve heard that people even tell lesbian trans women they can’t use it – TWERFs, obviously.) (I don’t think that anyone who says it’s “for lesbians only” would think that straight women, or any men, were allowed to use it. But I also don’t see anybody railing against them using it.) Just the dynamics of it bother me. There are no citations for it, no sources for the claim that it came from 1950s lesbian bar culture or that it was intended to describe Lesbians Only. People just say it REALLY emphatically, really firmly, and everybody goes “omg this is really important to them” and passes it around. I’ve seen bi and trans people apologetically tell each other that we can’t use the term. I’ve seen radfems shout down and mock people who try to oppose the argument. It bothers me because it comes from this emotionally abusive dynamic that the radfem community on Tumblr has. That dynamic is really what bothers me. The tactics the community uses are to be really sarcastic and dismissive of anyone they oppose or disagree with; to tone-police and gatekeep; and to shout over or openly make fun of people. And you can see it triggering people. People read this stuff and, because it’s delivered in this emotionally abusive manner, immediately just sort of submit to it. Immediately assume that it’s true, that they themselves have been super oppressive of others by using terms like “femme” or “queer” or “monosexual”. We don’t even check how the terms are used now, how they were used historically, what the logic is, none of it. And you can often see people reacting like, “this person is very upset about this term and a little bit scary to me, I’ll make myself safe by accepting what they say and spreading their message so they won’t attack me.” It’s not a conscious thought process, it’s just sort of an automatic acceptance-and-passing-on-and-vehemently-defending. Which is understandable, not only because so many of us have abuse histories, but also because the common response from the radfem community when people do argue any of these points is to attack people in very dismissive, mocking, emotionally abusive ways. And second, it bothers me because it’s bi erasure. There’s no way to argue that this term was invented by, and only used for, lesbians, if bi people exist in your mental picture of history. It bothers me because I know, too well, that the way bi erasure works (and the way biphobia in general works) is that we just sort of get left out of… well kind of everything, but in this case, history, and more importantly, the shared community memory of how things used to be. And then people repeat the story we’re missing from, over and over. And it becomes proof and fact, this story we’re not in. And people use it to say (falsely, but they don’t know these things are false) that the word femme is for lesbians only and always has been; that asexuals aren’t queer and/or can’t use the word queer (because they never learned that until the mid-90s, the ace community was part of the bi community); that bisexuals don’t belong at the Pride parades we started; that bi people don’t really participate in the “LGBT political movement”; that Freddie Mercury and Vincente Minnelli (Liza Minnelli’s dad) and Frida Kahlo and Sappho were gay, not bi; and that it’s homophobic/lesbophobic to say that anyone popularly assumed to be gay was actually bi…. without ever knowing that they’re just repeating examples of bi erasure. (and then if you bring up bi erasure, they erase your experience further by saying, “lmao like HYPERVISIBILITY IS A PRIVILEGE??!?!” like no, hypervisibility is also a kind of erasure. it’s just an erasure that’s a few steps up, where you get to exist but only as a villain or sex robot. and anyone with any knowledge of biphobia and bi culture knows that we experience the erasure of hypervisibility too. the very few characters that are actually labeled as bisexual are still almost exclusively portrayed as hypersexual villains.)  And this is just one tiny piece of all of that. But it’s one that shows up over and over again on Tumblr. It’s a microaggression. Each one is a small papercut, a sharp reminder that the communities we love and rely on and support and relate to, that claim to support us because we are same-gender-attracted… don’t know or support our culture, don’t know or support our history, and really only support us when or if we are same-gender-attracted. That we are supported to the extent that we are the same, only. …My one regret in writing this is that if i get generic anon hate about it, I will never know, because I’m already getting generic anon hate for reblogging that post about how Fallout4 is transphobic. Tsk and alas. 

[cottagesmasher]

*** This is being tagged as discourse so more people can see it. This is NOT an invitation to argue. ***

If you misidentified as asexual due to internalized homophobia, that’s straight people’s fault. Straight people caused your internalized homophobia, not the asexual community.

If you misidentified as bisexual due to heteronormativity, that’s straight people’s fault. Straight people caused your heteronormativity/internalized homophobia, not bisexuals.

If you used to identify as asexual but you were really just a “late bloomer” or a teen who latched on to labels too quickly, that means you misidentified. That doesn’t mean asexuality is a phase. That doesn’t mean aphobes are right about asexuals.

If you used to identify a bisexual, but you were really just “confused” or relying on hypothetical relationships, that means you misidentified. That does not mean bisexuality is a phase. That doesn’t mean Biphobes are right about bisexuals.

Asexual means lack of (sexual) attraction. It says nothing about sexual history or behavior. Therefore you can be asexual WITHOUT being sex repulsed. To some, asexual does mean “not interested in sex/relationships”, but that is their PERSONAL definition and does not apply to the whole community. “Doesn’t like sex” is how The Hets™ define it.

Bisexual means attraction to two or more genders. It says nothing about being attracted to your own gender. Therefore you can be bisexual WITHOUT being attracted to your own gender (there are more than two genders, hoo hoo). To some, bisexual does mean “attracted to your own and opposite gender” but that is their PERSONAL definition and does not apply to the whole community. “Likes men and women” is how The Hets™ define it.

If you want to spread awareness of misidentification, make a list of how you figured it out, rather than saying “This community trapped me with my internalized homophobia. This label was forced on me and now I hate all of them.” Talking trash about the community without explaining how you solved the problem does nothing but paint the community as inherently harmful.

EDIT: you know how lesbians make posts listing behaviors about coercive heteronormativity/“comp het” and DON’T blame bi women? Be like that.

Thank you and good night.

*** This is being tagged as discourse so more people can see it. This is NOT an invitation to argue. ***

[transenbyhollis]

for women who are attracted to men

attraction to men is not “unfeminist”.

being attracted to men does not mean that you are “sexually available”.

you deserve to have men respect you.

being attracted to men does not make you deserving of male abuse.

your attraction to men does not invalidate any other attractions you may experience.

your attractions to and relationships with men are not worthy of mockery.

you do not need to experience attraction to women to have them respect you.

you are not at fault for male violence against other women.

if you experience abuse from a man you are in a relationship with, being attracted to him does not “justify” that.

you deserve to have your feelings and relationships respected.

being attracted to other women is not necessary for you to support them.

who you are attracted to is your business and yours alone, and other people have no right to police that.

[transenbyhollis]

theres such a prevalent attitude among lgbt+ ppl of like. “i saw a GIRL kissing a BOY haha gross right” or “why would a girl date a boy when other girls exist” and “girls loving other girls is the best type of attraction and anything tainted by men is less”.

and like. first of all bi/pan women and straight trans women exist. pls dont call btq+ women gross for dating men. it sucks to be a girl and see that everyone in your community thinks your relationship is nasty.

but also, and this applies to straight women too… some women are abused by the men they are attracted to. and mocking women for caring about their abusers…. just seems a bit victim blame-y.

additionally, experiencing attraction that doesnt center around women doesnt like, make you a bad feminist or anything. respect, support, and solidarity can be totally disconnected from attraction. a woman can be an excellent feminist leader while also being attracted to men and not women, and even being straight.

[transenbyhollis]

if youre gonna come at me and tell me i hate lesbians, you need to say exactly where i devalued, critiqued, attacked, or otherwise spoke against lesbians or lesbian culture. if you think making fun of women who date and are attracted to men, blaming women for your/their abuse, disrespecting women who are attracted to men, or devaluing contributions to feminism by women who are attracted to men are integral to lesbian culture…. maybe you have a problem

[and-bisexual]

hey pal... u just did.... non ace... non bi..... allosexual and monosexual are bad terms that r homophobic as fuck. thought u were cool. bye. - disappointed bisexual.

The only real arguments I’ve heard for either of those terms being homophobic are

1. that by using the “ism” suffix, they’re automatically implying that the gay community has power over the bi or ace communities.

I’m not sure how that works really. Because people seem to say that it’s fine to talk about the gay community having biphobia, or lateral aggression against us.

So they’re not saying that it’s homophobic to say the gay community can be really fucked up to bi people.

The problem seems to be that that calling it “ism” is automatically implying that it’s the same level of power/oppression that the straight community has over us. But if the “ism” suffix means “you’re just as bad as our mutual oppressors,” then what is up with words like colorism?

2. Wait that might be the only argument. Because i was going to also mention the one about how they’re homophobic terms because they “group gay people with their straight oppressors,” but that’s basically the same argument.

I don’t buy the idea that, if a person or community at some point acts like our oppressors, and supports their oppression of us, that we can’t group their behavior with the people they’re grouping themselves with.

It comes from the TERF argument that it’s misogynistic/lesbophobic to call them cis, because it groups them with their straight male oppressors. And it makes roughly as much sense to me.

I can tell you why I use these terms instead of the “-phobic” alternatives. It’s because

- these aren’t phobias

- several people with phobias have written compellingly about why they feel like this minimizes phobias

- our society consistently casts bigots as mentally ill. often it’s as “sociopaths” or “narcissists” or “psychotic”; just look at almost any piece about Trump, or the #diagnosetrump tag.

This is just another side of that – the decades-long campaign that started with a straight therapist being like, “they’re AFRAID of being gay!” no. Not how mental illness works.

I also like the ism words because instead of putting the focus on a specific person, they acknowledge that any given person is playing into a larger system that they might not even be aware of, and could be victims of themselves. It puts the focus on the actual problem.

Systems of oppression, axes of oppression, are vague and blurry and invisibilized by the systems themselves. Like: are cissexism and misogyny separate intersecting things, or is cissexism caused by misogyny, from controlling and demonizing any deviation from male? Or are they both caused by intersexism?

No matter which one is at play, people of color always bear the brunt of them, so are they all somehow a subset of racism, that just happens to affect white people tangentially but horribly? Or does racism just intersect incredibly powerfully with all other oppression?

We need to be able to talk and think about these things, so that we can see who needs help with what, and how to best fight oppression.

If my oppression as a bi person does not only come from straight people, and does not only happen when I’m with someone that makes them think I’m gay, and if I’m not alone in that, then I and people like me need to be able to examine what that means.

Does it mean that straight society is set up to give the gay community VERY limited power to harm us, to try to use them the way TERFs use trans men and us genderqueers? Does the gay community have zero institutional power to harm me, but more power than straight people to psychologically harm me because I trust and identify with it? What do either of those things mean about how we address the high rates of relationship abuse of bisexuals from both straight and gay partners, or the higher poverty and unemployment rates of bisexuals compared to gay and lesbian peers?

I don’t know, because we can’t talk about them, because even if we call these things biphobia and pretend they’re lesser problems, we’re still told we’re being homophobic because we’re being divisive and playing the oppression Olympics.

I’ve even been told, as a sexual abuse survivor posting about the very high sexual assault rates in the bi community, that I was being “gross” for “using” survivors as some kind of rhetorical tools.

Like. It doesn’t really matter what words we use. In my experience, any words we use to talk about bi-specific problems, or about how to address SHARED problems in a way that specifically helps the bi community, get called homophobic. Same thing happens to aces, but more so.

So I use the term that isn’t ableist, and that lets me talk about my entire experience of oppression and not just the “SGA” part.

[bizexuals]

The other thing to mention is that treating monosexism/allosexim as -isms reinforces the idea that biphobia/aphobia are SYSTEMIC issues.

that it’s not just ~gays being mean~ but a SYSTEM that is as ingrained in our society as racism, or sexism, or heterosexism.

these words reinforce the idea that the problem isn’t that individual gays/lesbians, or even them as a group, are at fault for the shit that bi/ace people face. it puts the fault at pericis heteropatriarchy. which is even less homophobic?? because we’re not trying to blame gays/lesbians for our oppression??

all we’re doing is calling them out for PERPETUATING the oppression & using any small, marginal benefits the system gives them for being attracted to one gender and/or having sexual attraction to immediately make it worse for someone else who doesn’t have those benefits.

[evil-bihet-grace]

Unpopular opinion: if one person in a relationship is not ace and wants a sexual component to the relationship, and the other person is ace and doesn't, NEITHER PERSON IS IN THE WRONG. Additionally, some people don't want to have sex with someone who isn't sexually attracted to them, even if that person still enjoys sex. That's okay! Fuck. People want to know if their partners are ace because sexual compatibility is an important part of most adult relationships. I don't think that's a bad thing????? I understand that being rejected for being ace can be really shitty, but when there's two different people with two different fundamental needs in a relationship, they should just not be in a relationship. That's not either person's "fault", they're just different. It's like y'all are trying to work out who's in the wrong for liking pineapple on pizza vs liking anchovies on pizza - the toppings might not work together but they can each be on their own pizza and neither person is wrong for having a preference for what kind of pizza they want. I, personally, wouldn't want to have sex with someone who wasn't sexually attracted to me. Because of the whole grey-ace situation, this generally is a non-issue, because I'm so rarely attracted to anyone at all, but I know some fully allo folks who wouldn't want to, either, and that's okay! For some people, feeling desired is part of what they want! That's okay! It's just as okay to want these things as it is to not want them. This isn't something that has zero baring on a relationship, it actually impacts how compatible people might be. When discussing how people don't understand aces (which is true), please remember that other people having needs and wishes wrt sex in relationships is totally fine.

[herefortheace]

Asexuality is a minority orientation not an (evil) ideology

[lgbt--period-blog]

Okay but ace/aro is kinda like an ideology. Not that it’s evil per se, but it can hold a person back from growth once one has latched onto it and found the tumblr a-spec community. 

I know quite a few people who identify as ace/aro or aroace. I’ve never met one who didn’t fall into one of these categories. They came to that label as teenagers, usually not entirely through puberty yet. Or they came to it after a sexual-related trauma. Or they came to it as a result of having a mental illness that affects their ability to connect to people or to identify those connections correctly (such as BPD for example). Or they came to it as a result of a side effect of medication, often anti-depressants. Or they experience dysphoria to the extent that having anything to do with sex in their current physical bodies is unimaginable. Or they’re dealing with internalized homophobia. 

I think they latch onto a-spec labels when they have the above by misunderstanding what sexual attraction/romantic attraction is for “allosexuals”. They get their idea of attraction from TV shows, beer commercials (sex) and jewelry commercials (romance). They have very little interaction with IRL people where they talk about sex and romance. Or if they’re school-age, they actually believe all the lying/bragging that goes on about who’s fucked whom, and the intense period around puberty where it seems like everyone has a bf/gf and are PDA’ing all over the place. 

Anyway, they’re at one of those vulnerable points I mentioned in the 2nd paragraph and they stumble upon the labels ace, aro, or aroace. It seems to fit them perfectly! And once they identify as that, they find a whole group of online ‘friends’ who accept them for all the things they are. Oftentimes, these ‘friends’ are adults, a category they feel separated from and hold resentment towards because mom and dad won’t let them be on the computer 24/7 or give them all the things they want. But here are adults who don’t do any of that and ‘validate’ everything they say.  

So they fall into the a-spec community. And for many of them, as time goes on, they still identify as a-spec even once they really aren’t anymore. They’re just unwilling/unable to give up on the ‘validation’ that the a-spec community gives them.

Why do I say they aren’t really a-spec anymore? Because they do start to have sex and/or romantic relationships same as everyone else. Only because they’re inculcated in the a-spec community, they come up with all sorts of other names for what is really just being like everyone else, us evil ‘allosexuals’. They’re not experiencing romance, they’re in a QPR. They’re not experiencing sexual attraction, they’re just ‘sex positive’. Stuff like that.

They have blogs that are full of the same kind of lusty drooling over celebs that all us ‘allosexuals’ have. But they can’t admit it’s attraction, so they come up with ‘it’s only aesthetic attraction. 

Or they are involved in kinks that are quite decidedly sexual and that yield sexual pleasure when performed. But that’s only being ‘kink positive’ or identifying the pleasure they get as only being sensual pleasure. 

Or they have blogs/AO3 accounts full of fics that are extremely romantic and/or sexual. Often in great detail, often bordering on the obsessive or fetishistic. But somehow this isn’t indicative of the fact they experience romantic or sexual attraction.

Despite all their denials they, for all intents and purposes, are experiencing the exact same things that allosexuals experience (because not all allosexuals experience ‘attraction’ 24/7 or under all circumstances). They are clinging to the a-spec labels because of the ‘validation’, comfort and familiarity that the a-spec community gives them. 

To me, this feels a lot like what people who eventually leave cults like Scientology say. They weren’t able to leave the cult because they didn’t want to lose the friends/family/familiarity that they got in the cult. They were afraid of what the world might be like without the comfort they had within the cult.

I believe that there are people who are genuinely asexual. But that they are an extreme minority. Most (who are not simply teens who have yet to pass through puberty completely) are simply unwilling to admit that they have left behind the structural things that make up the ‘ace/aro identity’.

[herefortheace]

You’re literally calling aromanticism and asexuality ideologies and fucking cults and expect me to read all this and put time into a proper response? You’re comparing my orientation to scientology

Like holy shit this is vile?

I could address some points that made me shake my head while skimming, such as how writing about romance does not indicate the person experiences romantic attraction and how you don’t seem to really understand what aromanticism and asexuality mean, or how yeah I actually do have a partner I’m not romantically attracted to lol but I’m sure you know my own feelings better than me especially since I started to id as aro ace as a teenager when I in fact realized I was aro ace and so I guess just got dragged into this cult in your opinion, or I could go on about how YOU don’t get to decide who is “really” ace/aro, but just… holy shit don’t come near my posts ever again

[evil-bihet-grace]

Not to mention the fuckign ableism in the

"Or they came to it after a sexual-related trauma. Or they came to it as a result of having a mental illness that affects their ability to connect to people or to identify those connections correctly (such as BPD for example). Or they came to it as a result of a side effect of medication, often anti-depressants."

Part. Like... I can't even tackle it because on its face that bit looks innocent but it's teeming with insidious ableism towards abuse survivors and people with BPD and the disregarding of our feelings and identities as legitimate due to one or both of those experiences. Absolutely disgusting.

[apersnicketylemon]

It’s funny how everyone was super behind the idea of LGBT+ cafe’s, bookstores, and other businesses that were alcohol-free and desexualized up until the ace-discourse started. Suddenly anyone who wanted a space that was safe for  addicts, alcoholics, minors, neuro-divergent, and sex-repulsed  LGBTQ+ people was a homophobic monster for even daring to think about people other than themselves.

And by funny I mean sad.

[whifferdills]

the Gay Cafe discourse baffles me more than most Discourses because…there are…those things? they exist?? and they’re great both for people who don’t like the clubbing experience and people who do, because even the most dedicated leather-assless-chaps-wearing patron of the Bike Stop needs a chill spot to enjoy a coffee, or buy a book of queer-theory essays, or attend a poetry reading or w/e. these resources are a positive for everyone! and they exist, irl.

Ace Main Here, a lot of the rhetoric (and the assumption + unwillingness to do a Google, lest it take the wind out of our woke) does come across as very similar to the ‘oh gay bars are just for LOUD DISCO and PERVERTED FUCKING’ shit i hear from Straight™ people. it’s not bad to want that nonsexual sober space, but to assume that all allosexual queer resources involve drugs and booze and sex is. not great. RIP Sisters, but Frankie Bradley’s is still a good place to be openly queer and quietly eat a sandwich. do you know how long it took me to notice Atlantis was a bear bar? OVER A YEAR. (they have board games! a great local beer selection! super chill vibes if you go on like a Tuesday! and many handsome men with beards.) your local city/large town almost certainly has similar spots.  You want no booze near you? or can’t get into the Den of Sin due to your age? keep your eyes peeled for a rainbow or HRC equality sticker in the coffeeshop window. like books? fuck dude i was like 13 when i was first overwhelmed by all the Gay Shit and the general Posi Gay Vibes of Giovanni’s Room (i was too scared to buy a book, but i did buy a rainbow necklace).

anyway i strongly encourage everyone reading this to research for community resources & events in their area, and to support them as best you can. i’d also encourage everyone to avoid associating neurodivergence with disliking specific social activities, and to avoid lumping people who can’t/don’t want to drink in with people who can’t/don’t want to fuck under the umbrella of ‘hey i just invented the gay bookstore in 2018’ bc that is some buckwild cross-purposes kinda iffy poorly-educated nonsense. on a personal note, please try to not contribute to the idea of ‘ace people only read books hate parties and have never seen a weed’ bc it feels like yet another retread of ‘where the fuck am i supposed to go’. 2018 me is showing 1,000,000 ace moodboards about inoffensively drinking tea in a pastel cardigan to 2003 me who’s wondering why you gotta love house music to be Acceptably Queer. (thanks for everything, Queercore, RIP)

(and please, please don’t just tack on addicts and alcoholics onto your discourse because it gives you more points. substance abuse in the queer club scene is a serious issue but it’s not super great to see people who only engage in the community online and have never been there or seen There use it as a prop. and, like. instead of just complaining about the imaginary lack of resources, maybe promote the resources that do exist? even AA has LGBT+ focused groups, like. cmon now.)

(and if you’re in the middle of fuck-off nowhere then i do apologize but please understand that your experiences aren’t universal. just. do a google before Discoursing, please)

[apersnicketylemon]

1) Those things do not exist where I live. I do in fact live in a big city. THey don’t exist in this city. This is not a small city. It’s one of the largest in Canada.

2) No, I don’t think ‘gay bars’ are all ‘fucking and shit’. But I have been to the only gay bar in the city. No, it wasn’t a sexual atmosphere, but it was an alcoholic one, and if you actually read the post you may have noticed I did not call all gay clubs/bars, sexual. I said ‘it would be nice to have alcohol free AND desexualized spaces. I’m not saying specifically gay bars/clubs are sexual, but I am saying it would be nice to have both de-alcoholized and de-sexualized spaces, because the only other queer spot in my city… is a theater they show porn at. I have either a highly alcohol infused space, or a literal porn theater. THose are my only two options in my city, so forgive me, a filthy queer, for wanting something more then that in a city with over a million people in it.

3) I am literally neurodivergent. My problems with these spaces is not ‘it’s too sexual’ when I am having a sound-based sensory overload due to the excessively loud music. IDK if you’ve ever been to the only gay club in my city, but I have, and the music is excessively loud, and has a lot of flashing lights. It is simply not accessable to most neurodivergent people. Your entire ‘critique’ of this post has required you to assume every aspect of my entire existence, all of which is off base and incorrect. A lot of this is also in my about on my blog, on the hover board, it’s really not fucking hard to access.

4)I’m not ‘tacking on’ addicts and alcoholics. They’ve been among my primary concern with these spaces, seeing as all my friends are also queer and at much higher risks for substance abuse. In fact a couple of them I have seen fall into alcoholism, so I would appreciate it if you didn’t act like my concern is for “discourse points” when I have actual people, whom I love, who need access to the community in alcohol-free settings, which again, do not actually exist in my city.

5) Your middle paragraph is a confusing clusterfuck and my autistic ass can’t read that, so no response there since I can’t figure out what the fuck you’re saying.

“Just do a google before discoursing” or you could… not assume everything about my life, living area, and experiences lmao. I’m speaking from a result of my experiences, which do in fact include having been to the only gay-centered places in the entire city. “Don’t assume your experiences are universal!” But yours are?

[mademoiselleseraph]

“Your local city/large town almost certainly has similar spots.” Oh that’s rich. I live in Alaska, in the only “big town” (Fairbanks) and there is nothing like that here. The closest we get is Barnes and Noble. The only real city, Anchorage, is 12 hours away by car, so that’s also out the window.

No malice @whifferdills but please, take into consideration the fact that your experiences aren’t universal either. The fact that you have access to spaces like this doesn’t mean we all do, and ranting at us, effectively for wanting but not having access to them or similar spaces, helps no one.

[geekandmisandry]

I live in Sydney and no, it’s not easy to find them. The places that do exist are often really hard to get to.

But sure, it’s all just down to Google.

[evil-bihet-grace]

Has @whifferdills ever, like, been to another city? I live in a decent sized, very liberal college town, and I can't think of any non-bar LGBT+ spaces outside of a college organization. I live close to fucking Portland Oregon and I don't know of any there (although there may be some; I'm not in the city that much). What kind of asshole does someone have to be to go off on people for a) things they never said and b) not living in their extremely unusual city? What the fuck lmao