Sorry to keep complaining but โhe should have adapted the Iliad if he wanted psychological dramaโ full offense that hack cut out the MOST emotional and narrative-bearing parts of the Odyssey. He couldnโt dream of handling the Iliad.
I am hoping that this is some sort of exaggeration or oversimplification because this is just blatant erasure of a major element of Greek culture and replaced by a more Christian version and I want to bang my head into a wall. Thatโs not what xenia is, and you just erased a major part of the Odyssey.
@watchanddream Sure! This got a bit lengthier than I intended, but I wanted to try and be thorough.
Put far too simply, xenia is the practice of hospitality, but it's also a ritual and in a sense a contract between guest and host. When a stranger arrives at your doorstep, you're expected to feed them and give them a gift as the host. Typically, you're not even supposed to ask them their name until they've finished their meal. Once you've done this as the host, the guest is now expected to share stories and information about themselves, and not burden you or your household. Typically, people focus on how hosts violate xenia, but guests can also violate xenia.
This is called a guest-friendship, and once it's established, you are expected to offer the same to your host should they ever visit. It's a ritual of hospitality, yes, but it's also used to establish alliances and can be passed down through generations. For example, in the Iliad, when Glaucus and Diomedes discover that their grandparents were guest-friends, they decide not to fight, but rather exchange armor.
Theoxeny is a common story you see in myth where a god (typically Zeus) disguises themselves as a mortal and requests to be hosted by someone. Should the host follow the rules of xenia, they'll be rewarded, but if they fail, they'll be punished or killed.
This is important to the Odyssey, as it comes up multiple times, but in particular, the cyclops, and the suitors. In both these instances, Odysseus arrives disguised and gives a false name, the practices of xenia are failed, and Odysseus reveals himself and punishes the one that failed to follow xenia. The suitors in particular fail xenia, as they both fail as hosts, AND as guests, for burdening Odysseus's household.
Xenia being treated as the golden rule comes across to me like a Christian reinterpretation, as while many Greek philosophers did have something similar to the golden rule, those were philosophers, and the idea that it's a religious command from a god seems much more in line with a Christian idea of where the rule comes from. (Note, I'm aware that other religions had something similar, even as a command from a god, but I highly doubt Nolan is drawing inspiration from those instances)
Itโs just genuinely insane in the most derogatory way possible that someone could make The Odyssey boring. Imagine having the richest tapestry to work with and ending up with a white napkin.
my other pervasive problem with the movie (aside from its treatment of women which i cant even start on yet) is nolan's attempt to have the gods display their power in "natural" ways so that their diegetic existence or involvement remains in question. like how odysseus says his crew believes he's cursed by poseidon, it's left so explicitly ambiguous whether calypso is mortal, and athena's appearances to him are revealed to be a PTSD hallucination. I actually don't have a fundamental issue with this as an adaptational decision although i think its execution turns it into a matter of culturally christian theology, but the thing is that it's stupid. Because there's a Cyclops.
i unfortunately need to rewatch the hercules movie starring dwayne johnson because to my memory it's not a Great Film but it maintains the heart of the Hercules Question while actually accomplishing what christopher nolan tried to do with the odyssey. which is to say that if you're doing greek myth without apparent gods, everything else has to be kind of scooby doo shit. the cyclops has to be just a pretty tall dude who's missing an eye or has a birth defect and kills two of your guys per day for stealing his shit. odysseus has to invent circe's magic wholecloth to get sympathy gifts and glory from the phaeacians or whatever. there is an interesting direction to go here ESPECIALLY when the most fantastical aspects of the original story are diegetically narrated by a liar. it could be really cool to play with odysseus making shit up. but nolan wanted to eat his gritty and realistic cake and have his CGI too so whatever
god the self-proclaimed leftist progressives on this website are defending war crimes and colonization just to own global south citizens online god your "communists" and "liberals" from the first world are making third worlders argue their progressiveness time and time again just to prove their value as human beings. god, they are repeating far-right talking points without question god they are incredibly susceptible to propaganda
Nolanโs Odyssey thoughts. I brought in a notebook and filled 9.5 pages of scribbled thoughts throughout the three hours I was suffering. I hated this movie and I really tried to go into it with an open mind as much as possible and damn it really sucks. This movie really put the no in nostos.
(obviously spoilers ahead)
Random big thoughts
This movie felt like it was made for high school English teachers to show but then 95% of the way through making it, they were like actually nevermind and added in some f-bombs and a few (like 2-3 nonsexual nudity) shots of asses to solve the problem.ย
Odysseus hates the gods and at times barely believes in them, but also refuses to push back against anything that could be seen as a prophecy. Itโs so fucking weird because itโs equivalent to a modern atheist being like โChristianity is dumb and probably a crock of bullshit, also donโt lie because itโs a sin and God will be madโ.
I wrote this down verbatim, โAn Odysseus that hesitates about returning to Ithaca is like the sun hesitating to riseโ and I do believe I cooked with that. Same is true with a Penelope that doubts Odysseus and a Telemachus that doesnโt need a father, which this movie has.
Hereโs the thing, up until Odysseus lands in Ithaca, the movie is fine. It isnโt good, it isnโt horrific, itโs a little cringe and a little irritating for me as an enjoyer of the Odyssey, but it wasnโt bad. If I turned off my brain from know-it-all Greek mythology enjoyer Asha to action movie enjoyer Asha, I think I could have had a decent time. However, it all falls apart when Odysseus returns home, any ounce of characterization is crushed to bits and it just sucks and makes no sense. Reminder, I honestly enjoyed the Troy: Fall of a City miniseries so accuracy is not always my hill to die on but god, I would like the hill to at least be in eyesight.
Random little thoughts (in no order)
UGLYYYYYYY ass costumes like I knew they were bad but itโs such an eyesore. There was not a single outfit that I was like โthat looks niceโ.
This is one of the first movies Iโve ever seen where I wanted MORE gore and MORE things that made me sick to my stomach. Like, show me Odysseusโs men starving, show me blood spraying down when men are taken by Scylla, show me more soldiers drowning.ย
They massacred the characterization of every woman (fork found in kitchen, Nolan canโt write women, but still)
Thereโs a lot of things in this film that changing from poem to movie was pointless. My most memorable example of this being that Eumaeus is visually impaired, Eumaeus also at one point says Odysseus was like a son to him. These arenโt huge deals and donโt affect the plot but to those amongst us who enjoy the Odyssey, itโs just annoying.
Iphigenia is sacrificed by Agamemnon before Odysseus leaves Ithaca?????????
Thereโs a lot of time and plot spent centered on Argos (yeah the dog).
Odysseus only has 3 ships the whole film, holyyyyy budget cuts.ย
On Calypsoโs island, Odysseus forgets everything because she keeps drugging him with lotus flowers. He doesnโt remember how he got to her island, doesnโt remember his family or Ithaca until she likeโฆ weans him off and he starts to remember that. He basically feels none of the time pass.
Half of Helenโs face is physically scarred from the Trojan War, itโs implied that Menelaus mutilated her. Thereโs a disgusting line where Menelaus says, โthis is the face that launched a thousand ships, although now it would maybe be five-hundred.โ GROSS
The Laestrygonians look like cybermen and no I will not elaborate.
There is a scene where Athenaโs temple is destroyed in Troy and itโs implied that whatever happens to the temple, happens to the god. (like a soldier wacks off Athenaโs statueโs head, it switches to a scene of Athena being held down and nearly decapitated) Itโs a neat idea but in a movie where the gods are ridiculed by the main character, it just doesnโt work.
No Achilles or Anticleia in the underworld SIGHHH
No Nestor or Peisistratus SIGGGGGHHHHHH they hate to see yappers represented.
Telemachus and Odysseusโs reunion is so ass, like thereโs no bout of emotional resonance at all, theyโre two worlds apart.
Telemachus sucks as a character Tom Holland you are British how did you make Telemachus so fucking American. No one talk to me about Telemachus he sucked so fucking bad in this movie.
No wedding bed anything insane and might I add fucking crazy. Again, this is classic Odyssey stuff.
At the end of the movie, Odysseus and Penelope travel west(?) and leave Telemachus as king of Ithaca, to honor the fallen soldiers. This is the Greek mythology equivalent of retired American couples moving to Florida I think.
The Cyclops
The cyclops doesnโt speak to Odysseus (the men donโt even know itโs a sentient being until after they stab it in the eye) which means we get no โNobodyโ scene which is already a travesty because I fear thatโs classic Odysseus. And I do feel like the cyclops being more of a monster ruins the whole point of it being about breaking xenia. If Polyphemus is just an unnamed monster, what makes him any different from Scylla or Charybdis???ย ย
Small thing to be pissy about but to get past the cyclops they tied hay to their back instead of hanging from the bellies of the sheep.
We also get no scene of hubris from Odysseus, again this is classic Odysseus.
The Suitors
Antinous called beggar Odysseus a โplatelickerโ and then after a few times I swear on my life he said โplatelickaโ it was insane and I wish I was jokingย
This movie creates a lot of Antinous lore that I think is fairly unnecessary since Antinous already had lore (Eupiethesโs pirate background) but let me explain the Antinous lore to the best of my memory.
So Odysseus holds a lottery for his army. A young Antinous and a younger Sinon draw lots and Antinous draws the lot that indicates he will fight. Sinon, maybe 13 years old, swaps their lots because he wants to go to war with Odysseus. Antinous (probably 16-18 years old) tries to protest but Odysseus wonโt let them change back. Antinous interprets this as โOdysseus knew he might not come back and wanted me to be in charge of Ithacaโ.ย
Penelope is in the hall right before Odysseus starts killing, inaccurate but why I mention this here is because she doesnโt let Melantho come with the women to safety. She leaves her in the hall to die in the slaughter. Now if you know me you know I am an Melantho ENJOYER and so I hate to see my girl done badly (maybe the Melantho shit will be itโs own rant).
Antinous x Melantho I CALLED THAT THEY WOULD DO THAT A YEAR AGO
In the end, Odysseus doesnโt kill all the suitors (although he does kill Antinous). Insane because to make things right in Ithaca Odysseus HAS to kill the suitors. Itโs the reason that he kills the 12 disloyal maids in the poem because if they live, they represent his own failures blah blah blah whatever I hate it here.
The gods (or lack of)
Athena is the only god with form we see and Iโm going to be real honest with you, I didnโt have the brain power to try to figure out what was going on with her.ย
Zeus does destroy the ship after the sun godโs cows thing and let me just say if you canโt handle flashing lights this is not ur film because the lightning goes CRAZY and not in a good interesting way but in a โmy retinas are burned outโ way.
No Hermes and no Aeolus sorry my plot scaffolding kings.
โAsha, did you like anything in this movie?โ
Probably surprising but yes. When Odysseusโs men are turned to pigs by Circe, she has to physically mold them from man to pigs so she likeโฆ rips their hair out and pulls their ears and pushes up their noses until they turn to pigs which was so fucking fascinating to me. I hated the Circe scenes with her and Odysseus but goddamn Nolan you cooked with that body horror. Like, if the ending of this movie wasnโt hot garbage I would recommend it for that scene alone.
I also thought the scenes pre-Trojan war in Ithaca were cute, newlywed OdyPen and Odysseus being like a father figure to the younger men of Ithaca (maybe 2 mins of screen time altogether, not much to write home about but I enjoyed the scraps we got).
Soundtrack was good occasionally
Thatโs all I wanna write about for now. Who wants to start a GoFundMe for Homer to get a gun and a time machine to kill Nolan?
Hi! @jeannereames ! I sent you a message privately, but I decided I am not willing to let this go unspoken publicly because I'm actually kinda tired of this racist cycle repeating itself ๐๐พ so I'm going to post what I messaged to you, and then I'm going to continue on with my post ๐๐พ
"Hi, I got this sent to me and I can say this publicly if you'd like, because I don't want you to treat this as a private attack or on your character, but um- as a Black user who has seen the sort of virulently racist things this person has either said or stood by over the years, and the people she's spent time with and cosigned, am I allowed to have an opinion here? Like I fully understand wanting no parts of Tumblr drama, by all means, but um... No, I can't say I'm okay with this being dismissed as drama, especially when I as a Black fan have been targeted by the sorts of things she and her peers have said. And I don't know what your life experience is, but being told "I am not a racist" doesn't work on me when I am well aware of what I experience.
If it helps, I do run a page on racial sensitivity and media comprehension about Black characters as well. And am harassed semi frequently so I do know it looks like in many forms ๐
And I want to clarify this message isn't being sent in a cruel tone, I am just a bit hurt to see the bigotry I experienced and witnessed dismissed as mean girl drama and would like to offer a differing perspective, if you are genuinely seeking it."
The TL;DR: The creator you are unknowingly (?) supporting historically agrees with white supremacist sentiments, including with a user that was boldly being racist to me. When asked to overtly disagree with said user, she did not.
There will also be commentary on some of the people around her, because I am of the belief that if one willingly chooses to kick it with racists, then they are choosing to tolerate racism... And there's a word for that kind of person! I wanted to show you that while it may describe what you experienced, I do not consider what I experienced to be "mean girl drama".
Main Situation
So, back in November I wanna say, I was running an event where we would create Black edits of Dionysus from Hades Game. It was really fun! But apparently, people had a problem with that, and I ended up being told about it. I admit it made me extremely angry because while I am used to antiblackness from the Greek Mythology space on here, they don't get to potentially ruin everyone else's fun with their bigotry. Not in the safe, pro-Black space I'm building here, not this time.
Someone in particular, who went by @/Opal0684 , decided that they wanted to misunderstand my belief of "Afro-Greeks are real and always have been, and you don't get to say we aren't allowed to depict mythological figures as such, especially when it does not overtake the endless depictions of them as white," as "Greeks are Black".
This is a common misconception, one that I am starting to believe is on purpose, as it deflects blame from their true issue, which is that I'm depicting their favorites as Black. Anywho, they decided to go on the aforementioned racist run in my notes. A run that includes the sentence "saying Afro-Greeks are impossible isn't hating on anybody, it's just historically accurate." ๐๐
Margaret chose to reach out to me directly. A respectable act! But when I asked her to overtly confront and disagree with said racist Opal, because she has a history of agreeing with said user on her own page, she dodged it altogether. Now, a peer of hers, @/galusandmalus, at the time accused me of not showing her comments and therefore her perspective. So, this time, I will show you the full conversation and you can come to your own conclusion.
Now, idk about you, but me? If I didn't want to be seen as agreeing with my past sentiments in front of someone harmed by them, especially if I see them as bigoted and inaccurate, I would loudly disagree! Instead, after I blocked her for this and publicly showed that I would not be forgiving her, Margaret took the time to rebrand to @/starweaverblog. You can also find that evidence in this same thread.
"Mean girl drama". Suffice it to say I firmly disagree with you, Ms. Jeanne, that that's what I was experiencing here.
Next Situation
As mentioned earlier, I do not believe that people who willingly cavort with racists can avoid that they, too, are racist. We will address some of those things here.
Around that same conversation in November, I had to deal with @/gemsofgreece (another person that Margaret and other peers publicly have interacted with) on what was an incoherently racist rant talking about the "hopefully small African American Woke Community", trying to colonize Greece and its stories in a way akin to Western Imperialism". It begs the question why someone would even answer a question that begins with the ask "why are foreigners obsessed with-" ๐ค unless... why are the "foreigners" obsessed with WHAT ๐ค
Now I will admit, that phrase was kind of hilarious and we did have fun with that. Anyway.
Another person trying to pull the argument that I said "Ancient Greeks were all Black" and not "Afro Greeks existed in Ancient Greece". The overt tones of fear of Great Replacement- a white supremacist belief- ring quite loud. ๐ I'm going to be real. If that phrase doesn't also sound like a hysterical line right out of a Fox News/right wing network headline to you... Idk. But to me, it speaks for itself.
Next Situation
There's both a lot and nothing to say about the casual racism of her and Galus' peer @/katerinaaqu. From witnessing her live on someone's post casually saying that "North African Diomedes' dreadlocks and dark skin haunts her" (and I do know someone- @droodlebug -who also saw her say that, live), to subtweeting about my fanfic being insulting because I dared use an Ethiopian singer's works in an AU where I made Patroclus Black, that means absolutely nothing to anyone or anything because it's FANFICTION... Like. ๐ Just racist over silly shit that could be kept in her head, digging holes for people who won't publicly defend her.
I truly believe if you just ASKED any of these folks directly- and she has been asked- "do you believe that some people in these stories can be depicted as Black", they're going to give you the runaround of how it'll only be acceptable "if" and "who". And it's not hard to tell why someone would do that. Because apparently you have to have permission and follow certain rules to draw people Black in these stories for fun. I wonder why that's not expected of white depictions? ๐ค I wonder what those rules will be? ๐ค I wonder why this energy isn't being expended under the creative pieces of everyone drawing Anglo Saxon blondes? ๐ค
Last Situation
This is getting long. So! In case you feel like all of my notes here are solely directed towards my personal experiences of antiblackness, I understand. If I cited to you the creators of all the whitewashed Hades Patrocluses, we'd really be here forever, so I won't do that. Just know that it is very normalized to be antiblack in this space.
But, for proof that the culture of the space itself is not just antiblack, but racist as a whole, there are other users who have been harassed, some to the point of silence and leaving the app, for depicting any of these mythological characters as anything other than white. Dionysus-drawers like @mcsiggy seem to be a common target (Dionysus must be a favorite lmao); really all you have to do is draw a piece of that man and his wife while Not White and if they see it, here comes the microaggressive complaints.
There was also an entire anti-Asian campaign online with @/alatismeni-theitsa (yet another peer) because people had the audacity to enjoy the depiction of Hermes from Hades as Chinese or some other sort of Asian (because apparently South Asian Dionysus is cool, but THAT'S ALL!) Because I'm not of that community, I don't want to speak for them. I just wanted to let you know that while these folks seem to really hate Negroes, the smoke is available for anyone that isn't white! And once again- there's a term for that!
I'm just exhausted of the very obvious culture of white supremacy in the Greek mythology and Classics spacebeing denied. I don't know how anyone could walk into it and not notice it's a Whites Only space (except for the Approved Tokens), with anyone who does enjoy diversity pushed to the outskirts for safety. These are not connections made by happenstance; you can only be a comfortable bigot in a space where bigotry is deemed comfortable. We could at least be honest about it!
In Conclusion
I'm well aware that I will probably be called a bully for pointing out these people's acts. So be it. ๐คท๐พโโ๏ธ If the violence of racism isn't harassment, why would pointing it out be? "Why do you have all this" well I wouldn't have to if people believed in Black people's pain and experiences when they said it ๐คท๐พโโ๏ธ
And you, Ms. Jeanne, said that you'd take perspectives as long as they weren't anonymous. I don't feel the need to call out racism anonymously! If the racism was public, the response should be. You- any of you- can always find me here and ask me questions and I will answer you outright- I literally do this every day. For free! And I know what racism looks like because I experience it. Every day. For free!
I am firmly against the idea that racists can seek out white forgiveness for their actions. That's unacceptable. While I understand where you're coming from, you do not get to make the call that Margaret isn't racist- she doesn't get to make that call! Not when you've got users of color and witnesses who could beg to differ! "Not racist" SINCE WHEN?
And while these are just racists kekeing on the internet, my genuine concern here is YOU, Ms. Jeanne, because you said that you're a professor. A teacher! Your word and your beliefs will be passed down to your students. And I worry that you might be spending time with folks that will reflect poorly upon you, or whose beliefs might slip into yours.
What gets taught to the next generation becomes normalized. And those students are gonna have peers of color. You may have students of color! You publish books! People are gonna read what you say, internalize the things that you believe! So I would like to believe you would choose to do the right thing.
As for the people I've mentioned here, if/when you see this: there's always a chance to reject what you once believed. Yes, everyone has the chance to grow! But so long as you continue to willingly choose racism- because it's been pointed out to you all!- as long as I witness it, I am going to hold you to task for it. If you want to be racist, you should not have a problem being identified as such. And if you don't want to be perceived that way, you're going to have to actually try to let go of those racist beliefs. Not seek out white validation for it to be forgotten.
Anyway, this situation went about as White Fragility as it could get, but if any of the rest of you want a lesson on why people automatically dismissing racism in fandom as "discourse/drama" helps hide and normalize bigotry (despite it happening in plain sight), here you go ๐๐พ
"we cut the nobody scene from the odyssey" "we cut the religious trauma and parental abuse from carrie" i'm starting to think that studios barely funding original films is starting to have an effect where directors make up a story and then slap an IP on it in order to sell. or maybe some bitches just can't read anymore idk it's one or the other
This was some of the laziest and least entertaining, not to mention least authentic, ways to work with the Odyssey. I feel like I was dragged through the grayest slop. Some of the richest pieces of mythological material out there with every possible piece of scholia available in case you're unsure of implications and you manage to make it boring? The changes to the story strip away pretty much every core point of the text. Visually, narratively, and creatively bankrupt at the core. There are quite literally better takes on the original out there, from now-classical miniseries to modern musicals. This did not need to be made.
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