LA MONTE YOUNG AND MARIAN ZAZEELA INTERVIEWED BY GERARD MALANGA
GM: Maybe we could start out by talking about The Beautiful Book cover you designed, and how that came about.
MZ: I think it was probably a good example of Piero's eye, because he noticed a little drawing which was lying on my table in my house. I lived on East 9th Street at the time. He had found a little house behind a tenement building, and it was a charming little house if you took it out of its surroundings. He had rented the top floor and at the time I met him l was living on Avenue C. Somehow I found living on the ground floor very satisfying. It seemed like that would be the answer to all my problems. So I took the floor beneath him.
MZ: It was in 1962 in the Spring. There was nothing in the house. I mean it had a sink, and summer was coming and cold water…
GM: It was a little two story building
MZ: Yeah, in a courtyard and so I moved there and I got to know Piero and Angus better. They were living upstairs.
GM: You met both of them at about the same time?
MZ: I must have met Piero first and then Angus. Anyway he saw a little drawing, about 2x3", and he liked it and said he wanted to use it for the cover of Jack's book
GM: Did you know Jack Smith at the time?
MZ: Oh yeah. All the photographs were already taken.
GM: Did the photographs in The Beautiful Book come before Flaming Creatures?
MZ: Yes. At the time of the still photographs I think Jack's movie camera had been stolen, so in the fit of not having a movie camera he started doing some still-work. That went on over 6 or 8 months, from the fall of '61 all the way through the spring of '62. Then he was getting back to film work. He'd done the script to FLAMING CREATURES and wanted to film it. In fact he painted the set for it in that little house where I lived.
GM: At the time that Piero zeroed in on the little drawing that was on the cover were you aware of Piero's other endeavors with the Dead Language Press?
MZ: If I recall correctly THE BEAUTIFUL BOOK was done much later. I think he took that drawing and kept it quite a while. He and Jack made all the prints and really put the book together by hand. They're all real contact prints. I'm pretty sure that was being done later in the summer and a lot happened inbetween, a lot of events that were pretty important in my life. I’d seen some of Piero’s books. Of course later La Monte and I became very close to Angus and really lived by his calendar. When Piero published the calendar it was very helpful because we had a guide to go to find out what the name of the day was.
GM: At the time you moved in was your relationship with Piero a casual acquaintanship or did you really get inspired by each others’ work?
MZ: I think there was a certain amount of mutual admiration in the relationship although it wasn't in any way a deep relationship or lasting.There was a certain cammeraderie. It was more like he was making contacts and bringing people and events together.
MZ: Yeah, because it's very possible that he met Jack through me. He was in some of the shooting sessions, not any of those used in THE BEAUTIFUL BOOK but these photographs were culled from months of weekly shooting sessions that Jack arranged at his apartment and Piero did participate in some of them.
GM: There's a flyer... Perhaps we could pinpoint the date of... This is marked 1963. I somehow think there may have been a benefit of some sort when Piero was living on Ludlow Street.
MZ: That's when he put together THE BEAUTIFUL BOOK.
GM: I don't know whose address this is.
MZ: It was a loft and I think that may have been the premiere showing of FLAMING CREATURES in its completed state because I remember seeing in a loft somewhere.
GM: It's quite possible. This is dated February 25th, 1963 and I saw Flaming Creatures that summer for the first time.
MZ: It was shot in the summer of '62. It must have taken him time to edit it and put it together. We went out to California in the fall and came back in the winter. I think this must have been the first showing of it in more than just rushes.
GM: Flaming Creatures was shot in an old movie theater on Grand St. called the Windsor.
GM: At the time I saw Flaming Creatures I didn't know Piero but I was told later he was in it and I discovered the movie still shot of him. Was he working on the set the entire time that you were working on the film?
MZ: Jack actually wrote the film as a vehicle for me. I was supposed to star in it. Right around the same time he was painting the set I met La Monte and started to live with him and it became sort of a big conflict. It just seemed I had to drop out of the film. So he cast another woman, Sheila Bick, to play the part. I guess we had a big falling out and then we made up or something and Jack decided to commemorate his work with me by including some stills of me in the film.
GM: There were stills in the film?
MZ: Yes. If you recall every so often for quite a long time there is a held still. Actually I think Piero is in that still.
LMY: The ones she’s referring to were actually stills in the film. There were long sustained shots where nobody moved. They were unique in the film because she didn’t do the original role that he had planned for her but he still wanted to give her a special place. I thought these stills were an extremely inspired part of the movie.
MZ: They were used in most of the publicity for the film. So actually I didn’t participate in the film at all except this one day when I came over and we did one commemorative shooting session.
GM: In a piece by Sterling Morrison which he sent me for the issue he mentioned your participation in a piece that was presented at the Cinematheque, called Rites of the Dream Weapon which had something to do with Angus.
LMY: It was a benefit for Angus in fact. We gathered a group of musicians together and improvised for some considerable period of time. I was there and I think Terry Riley was there.
GM: Sterling mentions you in another section of that… I guess he mentions you in context here with John Cale. He says, "John was already a member of La Monte Young's Cosmic Ensemble. which was drone music with myriad harmonics and used slide projections.”
LMY: I can only remember the part of the benefit I played in, which had me and Angus and you (Marian) were in it…
GM: He refers to two ritual happenings at the Cinematheque called The Launching of the Dream Weapon which was written up by Archer Winston of the Post. Then there was another celebration which came later called Rites of the Dream Weapon
LMY: Sounds like we would have been in the second one.
GM: You say this was a benefit for Angus?
LMY: It was something like that. It really was a long time ago.
GM: I think Piero’s films were being shown in the background when he was reading poetry or playing saxophone.
LMY: Not during the part where we played but it may have been a big long program. It's very fuzzy.
GM: It sounds very tribal with Piero and Angus and you...
LMY: I was just looking at this l’M FALLING INTO THE DEER'S MOUTH. I remember seeing this book very early.
MZ: The prologue is 1958.
GM: Maybe that's when the book was actually published.
LMY: That would make it possible that it was one of the first things I saw of his back at City Lights when I was going to Berkeley in 59 and 60, which is where I first came across his work and Angus's.
GM: This was before you ever met Piero?
LMY: Yeah, I met him around 60, 61, 62 in NYC. I think I probably met him at the 10th Street Coffee House.
GM: It's funny. I came across Piero's work first in two magazines, New Departures, edited by Michael Horovitz in London and in Locus Solus in which I had also appeared. I think I was a freshman in college. I was attracted to his work and I had this image of Piero because of the way his name sounded, that he was this 50 year old poet. Then I had gone to a party in summer of 63, a party that John Wieners had given while he was staying in Frank O'Hara’s apartment on East 9th Street. John said "Say hello to Piero Heliczer" and I went up to him and I was so totally surprised as he was so different from what I'd imagined him in my mind's eye to be. It's very funny.
LMY: He's the type of person who always seems very young. He seems very informal and once you meet him you feel you probably knew him all your life. I haven't seen him in a long time but I had the impression he would always be boy-like, eternally youthful. I guess I might be quite surprised if I saw him now because I don't know what's become of him.
MZ: He also carried himself like a poet. He was always very poetic in the way he moved his hands. He had a certain delicacy. I was amused to read that he was a child actor in Italy.
GM: Right, that's his big crowning achievement (laughter). He's always pushing that.
GM: The most recent photograph that I've managed to collect is a picture where he's crowning himself the Emperor of Europe, which corresponds to a letter he wrote in a Dutch magazine. Here it is. Piero always thought of himself as a monarchist. I always think of him as a Chaucer type character.
MZ: Right, with his cape…
LMY: It's in his very lifestyle. He's very idealistic and the practical may perhaps escape him a lot of the time. His way of talking is totally in the clouds. His way of talking in… let's say, this monarchist way of life, is in everything he says. It's coming out all the time. It makes you wonder whether he could make it to the restaurant and buy a sandwich (laughing). It's great for being a poet.
GM: Up to a point. (general laughter)
LMY: For the poetry, let's say. Not so much for being a poet.
GM: This picture was sent to me by someone who knows Piero in Amsterdam. This letter is dated 1974 so I'm not sure if this is a separate event from the letter. This photo might be more recent.
LMY: He's picked up some weight.
GM: Yeah. Piero was always putting weight and putting off weight. When I had come back from Europe in 68… Oh, this is the houseboat that Piero lives on in Amsterdam… and when I came back from Europe I discovered that Piero was commited to the psychiatric ward of St. Vincenet’s Hospital. He had had a nervous breakdown. This was in March or April of 68. I went to the hospital and Piero’s mother was there and Paolo Lionni was there. He had gained so much weight. I still remember the vivid image I had of him when he left the hospital. He reminded me of a Marlon Brando type. He had really put flesh on his arms and body. It was very weird. I'm not sure what he looks like now. He did come visit me about 3 years ago with his Dutch wife from whom he's since divorced. He was a little on the stout side. These pictures here are from 75. This is really typical of Piero with the crazy, mad smile. The thing I hadn't known about Piero or had taken for granted was that he was very musical. He played musical instruments. He was kind of a child prodigy. He had all these incredible grades, A's in Science, Chemistry. It all shifted to poetry.
LMY: I didn't know so much about his musical talent other than through conversation. I know he was very interested in music. I can just imagine him playing Elizabethan music. I think he did, in fact. Either I recall seeing him with a lute or recall his talking about it.
MZ: So you're not sure what he's doing now?
GM: All I know is that he's living on his barge. I guess he's traveling around Europe as he's always done, like a vagabond showing his 8mm movies. He's kind of like a minstrel poet. I look at his kind of existence and it seems so vulnerable.
LMY: Not everyone can do it. In so many ways I'm so middle class. I've gotta have a home. I really am like a tortoise. I have a type of admiration for people who can really just wander all the time and make wherever they are their home. Apparently, to the degree that he thrives, he thrives on it. Apparently he isn't looking for the other way at all.
GM: Perhaps it's a very deep rooted, serious intention on his part. When I was talking to Piero's mother on the phone she hit upon the same idea that I hit upon which is based on his whining all the time that no one is taking his work seriously, and she said, in almost the same way I was thinking about it, that because of the transient type of personality Piero is he makes himself very inaccessible.
LMY: A lot of people have their own built in mechanism for keeping their relationship to the world the same throughout their entire lives. Look at my case. Why do I avoid the public so much? I have success on various levels yet I can manage to avoid putting out a record. Still, at the age of 43, l don't have a record out with a major American company yet. How do I do it? It's obvious if I really wanted that record out there as much as I wanted some of my other musical achievements I could have probably managed it, even though I don't like dealing with record companies because I think they have the wrong slant. I have this rationale about why haven't done it.
GM: But in Pero's case and perhaps in your case also a kind of cult notoreity of fame develops, which is actually very enjoyable.
LMY: You can have various aspects of success and, you know, who's going to measure your achievement? You can be measured by your best friend or your colleagues, the people you admire...
MZ: More importantly I think it allows you time to continue your most important work without a lot of distraction from the public and being forced to perform what the public thinks it should hear from you. Piero will be totally surprised to see that he's gotten any attention at all.
MZ: He'll probably sue you for defamation of character.
GM: I wouldn't put it past him. (laughing) Actually, this project got started in correspondence between me and Anselm Hollo, who's great admirer of Piero's work, back in 1970. Then it sort of fizzled out because we never really made the connection of who was going to do this. There was a press in Iowa that was going to bring out a huge collection of Piero's work, then it fizzled out. I think Anselm got distracted by other things and I was also involved in a lot of other things but in the back of my mind it always stayed with me that someday I was going to do this for Piero because I realised as the years went on less and less was going to be heard from Piero because of his vagabond life. By that happening I felt he was sliding into some kind of obscurity and oblivion.
MZ: Also extreme paranoia.
GM: That too. I felt that the only way to counteract that was to do this gathering of writings by people who had some sort of contact with him. Finally it came through this magazine that I've been sort of spiritual godhead or contributing editor to for the last few issues. So an issue was given to me. I thought I'd better take advantage of this situation now. It's remarkable the kind of responses I've been receiving. It's like being an archaeologist. There’s that Charles Olson phrase “The archaeologist of morning”, of dealing on a contemporary level. The more you delve into the personal history the more material is dredged up to the surface. Only last night I was with Allen Ginsberg and he said You should write to Gregory Corso because Gregory had introduced him to Piero in Cambridge in 58 which was the last year that Piero was up at Harvard before he got kicked out. So I’ve dashed off a letter immediately to him. I got such hell when the interview with Piero came out in Interview because Paul Morrisey was so anti-underground cinema and he wanted to treat the magazine as if it were just some Variety, Hollywood type tabloid. Paul was tearing his hair out. He was fit to be tied.
LMY: I think it's very important that someone like you enjoys publishing and compiling and editing and putting something together totally for your own pleasure. It's obvious you have nothing to gain except the satisfaction of doing a good job and to make a compilation of something on Piero that's really going to be very interesting and show an aspect of his work that probably most people are totally unfamiliar with.
GM: Yeah, so much time has gone by that one has to think in terms of generational periods. There are very few younger poets or artists who are aware of Piero's work, perhaps a little bit with the cinema aspect but not the poetry.
LMY: Look at me. I was young and totally unknown and searching through City Light Bookstore just to see what attracted me. Like what was I going to find in this place? Piero's book and Angus's book back at that time.
GM: I've never seen Angus's books.
LMY: I wonder what the first thing of Angus's that came out was.
GM: According to the list of...
GM: I thought it was the calendar. (title, YEAR)
LMY: The calendar was early but not that early.
GM: Oh yes, Straight is listed here. That's 1959 in Paris.
LMY: And what did Piero have out at that time?
LMY: Was it FALLING INTO THE DEERS MOUTH?
GM: No, that book's not listed here. It's funny because the responses, three or four of them, all mention that book.
MZ: GIRL BODY is another book, I think. But this is a different book.
GM: The Beautiful Book is listed. Straight is listed. The calendar is listed.
LMY: THE BEAUTIFUL BOOK and YEAR were after I came to New York in 1960.
LMY: Oh, and STRAIGHT is 59 also?
LMY: Those were the things...
MZ: GIRL BODY you don't have here.
GM: It turns out that Girl Body was a long broadside and I had a copy of that at one time and put it in a plexiglass stand. It cost me $50. Then one day someone knocked it off and the plexiglass broke. it didn't tear anything but the piece was sealed in plexiglass. I didn't know what to do with it.
MZ: It's a relic now. It's probably the only existing copy. You should xerox it.
LMY: Well, I was impressed with the work at that time. It must have been around 59. Piero wasn't still around when we did the DREAM WEAPON piece you referred to earlier, was he?
GM: Yes, according to Sterling Morrison.
LMY: That was in late 65? Yeah, I guess that could be.
GM: That's when Andy and I got involved with the Velvet Underground, coming from a different angle, and I had no idea Piero was involved.
LMY: And Terry Riley was singing in my group, The Theatre of Eternal Music.
GM: Maybe we could discuss what exactly went on at the Rites of the Dream Weapon concert.
LMY: The main part that I remember is the music that I performed in.
MZ: I remember Hettie going around lighting incense and making designs out of make-up, making up people's faces
LMY: While we were playing?
MZ: Yes, sort of as a dance.
LMY: Terry played saxophone and I sang and Marian sang. Angus played drums.
GM: At one time I performed with Angus when he was recruited by Lou Reed who was laid up in bed to fill in on a gig we were scheduled to do for about two weeks in Chicago back in 66. I learned percussion from assisting Angus during the performances. He was one of the original members of the group back in 65 but got booted out because one night he decided not to show up for a gig the Velvets were playing at a coffee-house in the West Village. Lou fired him on the spot without a second chance. Lou made it very clear to Angus at this time that he was being asked to come back only on a temporary basis until such time as he was able to get back on his feet. Instead of dancing for the group at this period I became assistant-percussionist. It was a terrific experience.
LMY: Angus is a very inspired drummer. I always enjoyed working with him but he often didn't make the gig or came at the half-way point or something like that. Speaking of these images of one's self or actual personality characteristics that one takes with him through his life, Angus thinks of himself as being very free. Either he is free or wants to be free or both. So whenever structure comes into the picture he doesn't want to participate. He’ll say 'Okay, I'll do it", but he won't.
GM: That's interesting because last December I ran into Angus, had a beer at Mickey's place and I told him about the project and he said he would write a piece for me on the Dead Language Press. I've since sent him many letters and I'm so shocked and surprised that he hasn't followed through.
LMY: I'm sure he'd want to do it.
GM: He was in New York for a week and he didn't call me or anything
LMY: We saw him. It was a very short time he was in New York.
MZ: He was trying to sell his special handmade paper. That's his business now.
LMY: It's an exceptional paper, have you seen it?
GM: I was in an issue of a magazine called Tingpa and he was its editor and publisher.
MZ: I told him we'd met you. He said he was going to do it and he attributed it to some mix-up between the two of you. Maybe he wanted some money. That was it, he thought he should get paid.
GM: Well, I agree with him on a certain level, except this is a little different.
LMY: This is clearly a situation where it has to help Piero and this item itself has so little commercial...
GM: He's the big missing-gap except for Michael Horovitz who is sending me his piece in a few days. Have you had any lasting impressions of Piero's writing?
LMY: I think my most lasting impressions of his writing are of that original book that I saw at City Lights. I felt that it was very inspired and with Angus's STRAIGHT they were a breath of fresh air in what I was finding in the stacks there. Of course what was in the stacks there was the very best. It was like the most interesting material that was being written at that time. That was probably the most important store in the west. There was no other store like that. I think that it was very important that he published THE BEAUTIFUL BOOK and a number of the publications the Dead Language Press produced, but after this book of poetry apparently none of his poetry took me in quite the same way. I don't know if it's that I saw less and less of what he did over the years and… Somehow our paths completely separated after somewhere in the mid-60s I don’t know what happened. We didn’t see each other that frequently and our work took us in directions that didn’t bring us together so often. I think this is not out of line with the reason you’re doing this article. This part of his personality that he represents to reality and the real world of publication and a realization of his work is a lot the way he manifested himself to me, too. We didn’t continue a lot but he probably introduced me to Angus.
GM: I think all the relationships, if you take Ira Cohen and Paolo Lionni - they were a team in a sense. They knew the same people.
(Marian comes back into the room.)
LMY: Marian, I was just pointing out to Gerard that my most lasting impressions of Piero’s work was Piero’s first book and that I didn’t see anymore of his work.
GM: For me it’s come to a complete standstill, with the exception of one poem which was published in a friend’s magazine about two years ago. I haven’t seen any of Piero’s work except what I have on hand.
LMY: I think it would be interesting to analyze why he made the strong public appearance he did at that point. Think about why did he change. To get into City Lights at that point, even though you could be far out or experimental or underground, it took something.
GM: My theory, which might not be too far fetched although I sometimes question it, is that at that time - 1958 - there was an under-population of poets whereas now there’s an overpopulation. There’s like 200 small presses and magazines and writing programs. Everybody wants to be a poet. At that time, it’s like having fewer people on earth. At that time he really stood out perhaps as a freak because he was the first person at Harvard to wear a beard and also to do small press books.
LMY: Oh, to do something like that at that time was very special. His work in publication was very precocious. And you know, this is not uncommon in the personality of prodigies. In music it's documented.
GM: It's like a very short-term kind of existence.
LMY: There are certainly examples who had the combination of an understanding of the situation and the talent too and they put them together and went on to be models for everybody else.
GM: Also Piero was unique in his own right back in 57, 58 because he could have survived on a very dull scale, gone the way of the academic poet, but instead he went the way of the bohemian poet which was kind of rare at that point.
LMY: He always had trouble with money
MZ: Joan Adler reminisced just before you came that she remembered Piero living on James Street Chinatown. The two of them had nothing, like pennies.
LMY: Piero and Stanley Alboum were living there?
GM: I was around when he had that apartment in Chinatown.
MZ: She remembered Piero saying that he was going to Europe and she was wondering how on earth he could possibly get to Europe when he hardly had a nickel.
LMY: But he traveled all the time. I see, he had money. That's how he did it! That's very interesting
MZ: So he's an eccentric.
LMY: Many of these prodigies do grow up in this kind of situation where they have all of the support from the parents and financial support and that's why they're able to achieve some part of what they achieve. It's one thing if you have to work a construction job all day and then come home and write poems as opposed to being in the Maharaja's court and sitting around writing poetry all day and wandering in the gardens.
GM: The court poet. (laughter)
LMY: That's it, you know. If you get started out on that it's very difficult to deal with the real world because you didn't have to do it at a time when you were developing all your talents and primary learning patterns which were going to be in effect for the rest of your life.
GM: But in Piero's case, with his art he was able to break that barrier but in his own personal turmoil he was not able to. That's why he made it seem he was a pauper.
MZ: lt fit his image of himself.
GM: It didn't affect his art, it affected his psychological viewpoint.
LMY: So you think he was successful in financial terms with his artistic productions? In other words it was easier to put out really esoteric things and never get into the major avenues...
GM: But as the years went on he wanted to have that kind of recognition and fame. Perhaps he woke up and found that he created a trap for himself without knowing it and all of a sudden he realised he wasnt getting the recognition that he thought he would achieve.
LMY: It’s rare that you attain the recognition either you deserve or you think you deserve when you do esoteric things like that. I have many times created works which were rather esoteric and you think that the world is somehow going to find out that you did this and later recognise you for it, but it’s rare when they actually do.
GM: It usually happens much later, which is all part of the cult process…
LMY: If at all. Many things like that go overlooked.
GM: Completely until the artist is dead. (laughter) It's all part of the feed for a kind of cult as opposed to a popular type of thing. (Looking at photographs) That was a still from a silent film of Andy's called Couch in which we were just sitting there for three minutes. We really didn't do anything. Piero was playing dead, sleeping, and I was just sitting looking at him in an admiring sort of way. The film was shot at Andy's Factory on East 47th Street.
MZ: You really look like Elvis Presley in this picture. Did anybody ever say that?
GM: Well, not in this picture but people have remarked about that on a couple of occasions, that I look like Elvis Presley (laughing). These are a couple of shots that Don Snyder took of Angus and Ira. Don pointed out to me that this is a very characteristic shot of Angus because he needs glasses and when he doesn't wear them he's always squinting.
LMY: What were your most lasting impressions of Piero's work?
GM: First of all, I thought it was very original, that no one else was writing exactly like Piero...
MZ: A string of abstract images...
GM: ...and all lower-case letters and no punctuation, which is really very characteristic of Piero, and long lines and, as you said, all these incredible images, kind of surrealistic in places and the poems were always very romantic. I also found them to be exotic because he always had these fantastic titles that had something to do with Latin, a kind of Latin involvement in his writing, and these very exotic references that I really didn't know anything about or understood but somehow tuned into as being kind of unique, and very much the master of his own craft. They weren't carelessly strewn together. They were very carefully put together but at the same time they seemed spontaneous. When I looked at the very typescript it almost seemed that Piero had typed the poem as it came through to him, that there were no successive drafts after that. The word magic comes to mind when I think of Piero's poetry, and it's romantic exotic, colorful and it's esoteric too.
MZ: This line, "I remember all of your poems" really characterizes the sort of whining wistfulness of Piero's attitude toward life and people and I think he was a very outgoing, innocent person and the kind of relationships that one has to make to make lasting and successful impressions in life... He's somehow too demanding in some ways.
GM: As you were talking before you even said the word 'demanding’ I was already thinking that Piero thinks that when he leaves a place and he goes away for two years and all of a sudden he comes back that he's going to be able to pick up where he left off and doesn't realize that if you become inaccessible in the sense that he has by traveling, being here and there and everywhere and totally scattered, time passes you by. Time doesn't stand still. Piero thinks he's going to be able to pick up where he left off. Some people can do that. I was able to do that. I went to India, traveled around the world for two years and came back and picked up where I left off but Piero's made himself inaccessible. I still don't understand that inaccessibility.
LMY: What I’m feeling now is something I felt a little earlier in the conversation but didn't mention it until I heard the two of you talk some more about Piero to see if that same picture of Piero was coming back to me. Now I'm starting to think this really makes sense. Maybe it was my relationship with Piero but I felt that, not in his poetry but in real life when Piero spoke that there was very little communication going on. This may have been my problem. When I talk to people I'm usually only interested in the conversation if it's very specific and direct, and if the communication is immediate. Sure, there are times when I just talk; but I feel, if I feel like having a certain kind of conversation, somehow it seemed like… The first impression I had of Piero when I met him, as with his work, was my strongest impression and I really had good feelings being with him. We went off to his place and he showed me his apartment and various works of art he had there. The impression diminished and it seemed that his real ability to communicate with the world in terms of making the kinds of connections which would have made him accessible wasn't in his everyday speech. I felt that he either didn't want to talk the way I wanted to talk...
GM: Sort of like a prima donna...
LMY: ...Let's say I would be talking about dollars and cents and he would be talking about a totally unrelated thing. I wanted to settle whatever it was we were talking about and he was waxing poetic.
GM: Waxing poetic? I don't really know what that term means.
LMY: What I mean is that we didn't communicate. After the first few meetings our communication, in terms of one person talking to the other, it wasn't able to happen. I think that his communication ability is related to his inability to develop anything lasting, as you were saying. It has to do with the kind of communication ability you have to develop at an early age. Let's say that your parents provide you with enough that you don't have to learn how to ask for things or to get things.
GM: You think maybe he put all that energy into his poetry so when you or I came across his poetry it was like he was really talking to us through his work?
LMY. Yes. In fact the first meeting of the man is like his poetry because at the first meeting he's the image of himself. It's nothing practical. The first meeting is all images, his ideals and your ideals. Two people come together and exchange ideals. You don't accomplish anything except meeting the person. With some people the juxtaposition of images work. It’s harmonious. With other people it doesn't work. In this first meeting the exchange of ideals was perfect, everything was really high. All idea were the same and any additional ideals could be agreed upon. Then practical life developed such as dealing with him on the publication of a book, it didn't jell. You couldn't deal with him on that level.
MZ: I think that THE BEAUTIFUL BOOK is one situation where his relationship came to a successful…
MZ: ...so this is a collaboration, let's say, and his eye worked in enlarging this very small drawing and now we still have this impression. To think! It was very good and fitting that I do the cover of the book.
GM: Was Piero aware of your music when you met?
LMY: Oh yeah. I met Marian at Angus's and Piero’s. She had the apartment downstairs. Angus was playing in my group. One day we went to Angus's to rehearse. Also we were playing some Balinese records, I believe. Marian heard the records and came up.
MZ: It sounds corny but we never really left each other after that day in 62.
LMY: I feel that there's this trend coming up that you're beginning to notice in his personality and I think it might be the kind of thing that won't change. Often these things are taken out of the person's hands.
GM: In Piero's case it's not so important to have a ‘commercial success’ because the art was so good to begin with.
LMY: You don't really think, in other words, that the reason were not seeing more of his work has anything to do with a lack of funding for his projects?
GM: No, not at all. I just think that psychologically he's gotten himself into a deep hole.
MZ: It seems to me the letter to the Queen is very paranoid. It seemed his boat was either stolen or ransacked while he was away and he wrote a letter...
GM: There's an interesting story there. Piero writes this letter and there’s another version as to why that happened, that is, I don't have it here with me. Piero had been given some money to guest-edit a magazine. He did something else with the money and these people were going to get even with him and so they ransacked his barge and stole his typewriter and taperecorder as ransom until he paid back the money. I was always concerned with Piero, the way he was living. I said someone's going to break in and take your tapes and you don't have any prints of your movies and they'll rob your original footage and manuscripts bla bla bla. So as the years went on I began collecting all his manuscripts and have pretty much all his writings except for maybe the last few years in which I haven't seen him but once or twice. Four years ago when he came to New York he wanted me to give him all his manuscripts that I had so I made him a xerox of one manuscript and gave that to him because I know that he would just lose them or they would get stolen or they'd get stuck in a storage warehouse and he wouldn't pay the bill. They'd be lost forever. With his work there was always this vulnerable element.
MZ: Are you going to print some of his work?
GM: Yes, besides reprinting the only interview ever done with him. I'm going to print one long poem that's never been printed before called Soul Searching Institute. It's a very long poem, because all the other work of his I have has been in books and magazines. Even though not too many people have seen that work I wanted to print something that's never been seen before. I’m also printing a very long prose piece called Purcell A Textbook, sort of a take-off on Henry Purcell, and also his play Bessie Smith. Also the letter he wrote to Paolo Lionni when he was “busted” back in the 60s and then I'm going to reprint this letter.
MZ: That's right, he and Jack Smith were busted.
GM: They got busted trying to protect a friend of theirs, Jack Martin, who got busted for dope. The cops came in and they were wrestling with the cops and were arrested for resisting arrest. Piero's girlfriend at the time was also arrested because she got in a brawl with the plain clothesmen who wouldn't show their badges. Allen gave me all this material this morning. So today Allen gives me these two pieces which are by Jack Martin who's deceased now and a piece by Piero about the bust called Life Is A Poem.
LMY: Do you think Piero intended the letter to the Queen to be effective?
GM: I'll tell you the truth. I think that in the back of his paranoid mind he thought he was going to get some action resulting from this letter (laughing).
LMY: This is what I mean about his communication. He thought that he was writing a letter to the Queen and he presented it in very noble terms and you can see that as soon as anybody reads this letter the secretary won't even bring it to the Queen's attention. It's very poetic. There's poetry all the way through it and the stories are so wild about these types of sabotage and how they involve him personally.
GM: I was thinking while I read the letter that if it brought any attention to Piero they'd probably start investigating him. This kind of traitorous act against the government of Holland is...
MZ: No, but he endorses monarchy.
LMY: It's like a crank letter. It's related to the kind of crank letter that people in offices get all the time.
GM: Except it's very well-written.
LMY: It's beautifully written. The technique is exceptionally funny. This is high level humor. It definitely represents an aspect of his best work.
GM: It's very funny, last year I get this form in the mail from the Guggenheim Foundation. Piero had put my name down to recommend him for a Guggenheim. They sent me a copy of his proposed project which was very serious but he was talking of $50,000 to document all his writings and to put his files in order and all these weird things and I was thinking to myself, Oh my God, the Guggenheim people have read this and they're going to think he’s totally nuts. So I called them up and asked in what category Piero was applying. I think they said to me that he was applying in poetry or I might have made that decision on my own. So I gave him this whopping, incredible recommendation and they know my name because I've applied so many times, so they probably wondered where I was coming from? I stuck to my guns. I knew he wouldn't get it. I just wanted to clear the air for him to show that his work is something I do appreciate.
LMY: That's interesting. I guess then when we say he's not dealing with the real world we mean the world of recognition. He's not being recognized for his work. Isn't that it?
GM: Yes, that's of the things. But it's not like he doesn't understand one the mechanics of sending work to a magazine with a self-addressed envelope.
MZ: I think that his way was through personal contact, knowing people who were "in" and running things at one time. That same electricity isn't operating now.
LMY. What is he doing there?
GM: I think what he's doing is showing what's left of his films. Perhaps he's still writing poetry. He did give a reading where he was photographed crowning himself the Emperor of Europe. I just don't know what the extent of his recent work is.
MZ: We never saw any of his films.
GM: Really? On, they're so beautiful! They're these pastoral b&w, grainy 8mm films. These stills here are the only things that survive. This is Ted Berrigan here. This is called Joan of Arc and I play Joan of Arc at one point (laughing) or I play her lady in waiting. This was shot on his rooftop on East 11th or 9th Street. Everybody had to wear costumes and have swords and guns and cowboy hats. Everything was so eclectic, all these images clashed and lumped together then he would have soundtracks. He had a soundtrack of a tape of yours that I doubt he still has anymore. He was playing it one night as background music and I said Who's music is this? This was really great. And he said La Monte Young. He never had a sound on the film so whenever he showed it he had the taperecorder. They were great, really beautiful, little delicate gems. You could never achieve that with 16mm. It was these big elaborate productions. And he had a little 8mm movie camera. It's like putting a Cadillac engine in a Volkswagen. It was that kind of misproportion. It was very odd. In fact this is a shot where I play Lord Byron and Paolo was chasing me with knife in the shape of a fish all over the rooftop. This is Susan Bottomly, a fashion model. This picture was taken the last time I saw Piero. This was at The 1974 Avant-Garde Film Festival at Shea Stadium. Piero was out there showing his movies and I went with a friend of mine, Jed Horne. I got the two of them in this picture together. Anyway, this was the last time I saw him show his films. They’re little gems. As you say, he really has an eye, a film-making eye as well as one for words. This is from the Screen Test book which he also used in his last book The Soap Opera. That's 1967 and it was his last book. I'm trying to start a publishing company with Daia to do four books a year. I’d like to do The Collected Works of Piero.
MZ: Do you ever hear from Kate?
GM: She's in London and I received a letter from her. She’s responsible for putting me in contact with Piero's mother. His mother lives out in Forest Hills. She has an importing business and keeps an office in the city.
LMY: I think his imagery of himself is very good... but the verbal relationship. He's into a land of fantasy and that’s very interesting.
GM: I was looking at Canterbury Tales with woodcut illustrations. In the magazine I’m going to reproduce this woodcut of a knight on a horse. It really relates to his poetry.
LMY: It takes an eye like yours to see the extent of this image of his work because any one of us seemed to have just our own relationship with Piero but by you're taking an interest in archiving his work you’re able to examine many more aspects of the work than it’s possible to see from our point.
GM: I’ve enjoyed his work for so long. I always recognised the increasing lack of availability of his work to the point where it is really unavailable. All his books are totally out of print: He hasn't been published in any magazines recently except for one or two places. I feel that his work is that strong and valuable that its not for me to horde and enjoy for myself. Other people should see it. So now at the end of it he'll hopefully quiet down and not complain. (laughter)
LMY: You will probably be presenting this overall view of his work to anyone else besides yourself for the first time. Nobody else has perhaps this complete image of Piero. How many other people had archives?
GM: Really no one. Piero's mother told me on the phone that somebody was collecting his work at Harvard. He’d told her this, but that sounds farfetched to me.
LMY: They might have some of his books or something.
GM: I just don't know who would know of his work outside the few friends and acquaintances. So guess this is the first time for Piero on any kind of grand scale. The magazine... it's a neat little literary magazine. The editor is very young. He's twenty-five and a really good poet, and I got him interested in Piero's work. He’s turned over one issue of the magazine to me.
LMY: Well, it’s a major work.
GM: Yeah, it's never going to be complete. When go to press at the end of the month it'll be a large thing but...
LMY: Well, it can be the introduction to THE COMPLETE.
GM: Yeah, this could later be reprinted as a book and by then maybe Angus would chip in.
LMY: Apparently Angus tries to live over there on next to nothing. That’s a lifestyle. Some people wouldn't want it any other way. I don't know when or where I got all these middle-class tendencies.
GM: Well, you don't travel light. (laughter) When I went to India, and I think I might have been there when you were there… when I started travelling I knew this was a major journey and put everything in storage.
LMY: You can't take everything with you, but we take a few crutches with us when we go. We've been to India four times. You notice again and again there are certain things that should have brought with you.
GM: My philosophy is that if you let things go they’re always going to come back to you. I had a terrific library collection and sold it to Phoenix when I went off to India and three years later I amassed another book collection, almost as fine as the first.
LMY: It's not the things that are bad but the attachment to them
GM: Yeah, it was like a test for me because before I got to India I sent back my cameras to America. For me to do something like that, relieve myself of the ten pounds of metal… Let me ask you one more question. Being that I’m dealing with Piero and all the different aspects of him like Angus and yourselves, we haven't really touched on Ira Cohen - how all that came about.
MZ: We never knew Ira very well.
LMY: No, but my image of Ira is that he must be one of the most organized of the three. He can make a film and all sorts of things.
GM: But he is also a vagabond like Piero.
MZ: One of the things that brought us together is that my ex-husband married his ex-wife, so we’ve always felt this kind of bond but actually we never really knew Ira very well.
GM: There was no real artistic connection?
LMY: No participation, no. We appreciated him.
MZ: Did you ever know Irving Rosenthal?
GM: I met Irving out in California. I was living with Pristine of the Cockettes in 72 and I was taken to somebody's house by Harold Norse to meet Irving Rosenthal and Irving couldn't care less. Harold was very paranoid about Irving's stuff, Irving's becoming a guru of a cult of guys dressing up as girls. They were like if Jack Smith had a few babies, glitter and dust and angel hair. But I only met him once. I guess Ira knew Irving
MZ: Right. Ira published something of Irving's. I was very close to Irving and he was a mentor to me and sort of guided me through a very depressed period of my life. I met Jack through Irving and he suggested that it would be worthwhile for me to do some modeling for Jack. Naturally it was very involving. These things always happen you know - conflicts just when everybody's getting together. There was a very serious rift. It seems like all the events of those years were very heavily charged.