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@fundiesbythedozen
I’m sorry for what you’re having to deal with.❤️
Thanks. I’m fine really, but people have lost their minds. First I got mad inboxes, now other people are. I’m just losing more faith in our society from this. I hope we can learn to talk to each other again.
(Cont.) I just can’t say I know for certain that ending a pregnancy shortly after conception is necessarily worse on the morality scale than subjecting a child to the ongoing trauma of neglect, abuse, or needs-insecurity that far, far too many children are subjected to from infancy through adolescence. Certainly there’s much more nuance to it, but if allowing women bodily autonomy means less children are abused, unloved, or neglected, that seems to me like less net harm than the alternative.
(3/3)
There’s a lot to respond to here and I’m exhausted with this topic, but I’ll respond briefly because I appreciate the effort you put into the message.
I’m not that persuaded that abortion prevents child abuse because the children that I know who are abused or neglected were very wanted by their parents. Frankly, some of them were born addicted to drugs and will suffer issues for their entire lives because of that. It’s awful. Perhaps abortion is the least worst choice if you’re going to abuse the baby in utero (but you shouldn’t be allowing yourself to get pregnant in that situation anyways).
Lots of poor people live good, fulfilling lives and lots of poor children are prosperous adults.
Regardless, if you can’t feed or care for a child, you should be taking active steps to not get pregnant in the first place.
I think the focus of bodily autonomy should be at the point of deciding to have sex and use contraceptive because the baby didn’t choose to be dependent on its mother, but the mother chose the risk of having a baby dependent on her. (If a man steals the woman’s autonomy through rape, that’s a different situation.)
I think this response is detailed enough, but I may have missed something. I’ve written out more of my thoughts on abortion in the last 24 hours than I have in my entire life. Sigh.
I’ve spent a lot of time with children, and I feel a really strong connection and empathy with younger kids and how they experience the world. This is incredibly complex— there’s no answer that will feel 100% ok. But esp. while caring for children regularly as a nanny before law school, I became convicted by a simple notion—that no child deserves to be born to parents who don’t want or can’t care for her. Even well-intentioned parents get it wrong too often, and it just isn’t clear to me that
(2/3)
In response to most imp. life being the mother’s—one thing I think about a lot is the quality of life of the unwanted child. I believe strongly that no child should be born to parents who don’t want her. Children ARE precious, and exceptionally vulnerable, and no child deserves the trauma of being unwanted, neglected, abused, hungry, or not properly cared for. It comes down to what we believe about souls—ppl say any child would want to be born—but this isn’t something anyone actually knows.
(1/3)
Interesting Q&A from the Dillards.
TL;DW: Israel loves school, they decided together to send him to school (the decision was thoughtful, informed, and not based on fear-and they still want to be involved), Jill currently isn’t practicing midwifery, Derick wants to go into public interest and help underrepresented people, they drink alcohol but don’t drink to drunkenness (having a healthy balance with alcohol is important), they’re watching Matlock, the Office, Parks and Rec, YouTube videos and movie clips, they watched the “To Kill A Mockingbird” film recently (Derick is exposing Jill to materials on public school reading lists)
-T
Derrick is literally doing for Jill what I’ve hoped every spouse would do. I’m so happy for her.
Yes there is so much learning happening here! It’s so nice to see!
"ur critism of me was unfair" U called her evil though
I did not.
This is the last low quality anon message I’m answering on this issue. These messages are not constructive and responding is a poor use of my time.
Literally I said that the criticism was unfair because it said that I said and believed things that I didn’t say and don’t believe.
This is likewise unfair because I didn’t call anyone evil.
"ur critism of me was unfair" U called her evil though
I did not.
This is the last low quality anon message I’m answering on this issue. These messages are not constructive and responding is a poor use of my time.
@fundiesbythedozen
@fundieofatime was absolutely right to call you out in regards to your chosen post to show off your newfound confidence in regards to being anti choice.
“I love many such people” is akin to “hate the sin, love the sinner” and I believe you’ve been a part of this community long enough to know why that rhetoric is considered invalid.
It’s not my goal to change your mind and I’m not going to pretend I can, so I’m going to try to keep this short.
“Why should the pregnant person be the most important person?” Because it’s their body. Everyone has body autonomy and that autonomy is unbreachable. People who are capable of getting pregnant are not baby factories, having children is not their purpose nor their duty. You can not be forced to give blood or to donate organs, even in death. To decide that an embryo is more important than the person carrying it, reduces pregnant people to their ability to get pregnant.
“Outside of rape, this is the risk you took when you chose to have sex.” First, pregnancy is not a punishment. Second, we don’t deny smokers cancer treatment, we don’t deny drunk drivers emergency medical help. Circumstances don’t dictate available procedures in any other topic.
Believing you have the right to decide on the criteria a person must meet to receive medical treatment is absurd. These unnecessary and opinion based limitations cause real harm to real people, but I guess you know best for everyone.
“I’m not here to judge ... abortion is morally wrong.” Well okay.
The argument of when an embryo is considered a “person” will forever be a matter of opinion. Luckily your religious beliefs should never matter in the options other people have.
People will have abortions, even if you don’t agree with their circumstances. We need to take care of them by providing safe and affordable access and after care to this medical procedure.
Every one else was kind enough to say “no judgement” so i want to add : total judgement. You’re entitled to your opinion but an opinion is not the desire to enforce other people to live by your gray area morals.
I said abortion should be both safe and legal, so I’m not sure how my post indicated I’m “anti-choice.” I also did not say that I wanted to make that choice for other people. Nor did I express any religiosity because my opinion isn’t based on religion.
Giving blood and donating organs are different than carrying an undesired pregnancy to term because, barring rape, the donor did not create the conditions which created the donee’s need for help. Likewise, smokers and drunk drivers don’t ask us to end another life to help them.
Pregnancy isn’t a punishment for (inadequately protected) sex because it’s a natural consequence of it. Consequences and punishment are different. I would not encourage a woman to risk dying to save her unborn, but I do think the unborn are more valuable than inconvenience.
My comment was not tactful in context, but otherwise, I don’t believe my content was wrong. It’s not about being “proud,” it’s about pushing back against a culture which cancels people for noncomformance. People in this community might be canceling my right now for not conforming to their liberal view on abortion. The fundies and other actual pro-lifers might cancel me for not conforming to their conservative view of the issue. I should be able to express nuanced opinions without being attacked and without having words put in my mouth. I believe the conversation is important, so I believe it’s important to engage in the conversation even if it means I’m attacked or cancelled. I’ve spent fifteen years wrestling with the abortion issue and my opinion has changed significantly. My opinion won’t be changed today, but maybe I’ll agree with you in the future if we’re able to discuss things respectfully. If the goal was not to change my opinion, I’m not sure what it was.
I consider myself to be anti abortion but at the same time I can understand the other side especially if it involves rape and incest. I can also see the case if there were money problems or health problems. I will admit that under those circumstances I can understand but I do struggle sometimes because at the end of the day it’s a human being no matter how small. I’ve tried to see the other side and I just can’t. Does that make me a bad person? I promise you I have really tried.
It doesn't make you a bad person. As an ex-religious person who has had an abortion believe me, it took me 4+ years to even consider that I wasn't horrible and selfish for my decision.
Believe me I get where you're coming from. My advice is to really be as empathetic as possible to the women who decide to get abortions because no reasoning is exactly the same. On my end I was not mature or mentally stable enough to even experience pregnancy (which I had been trying to prevent). Even being pregnant was something that drove me to suicidal thoughts and I'm very convinced that bringing a baby to term would've resulted in self-inflicted harm to myself, or unintentional harm to my fetus or baby.
That's not to say every abortion decision is made under as extreme circumstances, because for some women it's as simple as they just can't do it. I definitely urge you to take some of the empathy you have and extend it to the vulnerable or scared women who are forced to make this decision, which is often an insanely hard decision to make but also the best decision for them at the time.
If one truly believes that life matters, then you absolutely must care about the life of the person considering the abortion. What is their situation and what is best for them? That person (keyword here) is the most important consideration. No one gets an abortion for fun. No one is using it as a form of birth control. Folks do it because it's the best possible outcome, financially, physically, mentally or emotionally for them.
If it's only about a fetus, you might just be pro birth.
No judgement from me either way, everyone is allowed to have an opinion or a feeling on a topic. Until and unless you harrass people, be it in their private lives or outside of clinics. I consider that kind of person 100% fair game.
Also you can totally be anti abortion personally, and also pro choice for other people because their choices don't affect you.
@fundieofatime why should the pregnant person be the most important person to consider? Barring rape, that person consented to the possibility of a pregnancy, but the fetus did not. Yes, this is unfair to women, but life is inherently unfair.
FWIW, I believe abortion should be “safe, legal, and rare.” It is morally wrong, but there are instances where it is a necessary evil. I’m not here to judge people who have had abortions, I love many such people, but after a lot of internal struggle, I no longer wish to pretend like ending innocent lives is a moral good.
Again you have the right to believe what you believe, just picture for a minute though being a person who is on the receiving end of this and is being told one of the hardest decisions they've ever made wasnt 'morally right' and that they've committed an act on par with murder. Just like understand the connotations that has when you say that to people.
It doesn't affect me anymore but if you'd have said that to the young girl who had just left her religious community with a tenuous grasp on sex ed at best? It makes me extremely glad I waited to tell anyone and still refrain from telling my family, because I really don't know if that is something I would've been able to come back from at a time when I was already struggling so much with the guilt my church had instilled in me. You are entitled to your beliefs but just you know. Know what that can mean to people.
@spurgie-cousin, I’m sorry I lost track of the context that I was responding in and was insensitive. Abortion is a morally tricky subject which is why I continue to believe it should be legal and make it a point not to be judgmental (even though I can see how my comment would come across that way). FWIW I can tell from your post you made the decision with the sobriety that I think such a decision deserves. I enjoy your commentary for your thoughtful responses and unique perspectives, so I hope we can stay friendly. Again, I’m sorry that my words came across as an attack, your criticism was warranted, and I am using this as an opportunity for growth.
Unfortunately, I’m now in a bad spot. Your criticism of me was fair, but I have also received unfair criticism. I don’t want to make comments that further force you to relive painful experiences, but also don’t want to not address the unfair criticism because I think the lack of discourse in our society has caused us to be extremely divided and that that’s bad for us, our country, and the world. I haven’t decided which option I think is better/the least worst morally.
You’re apart of a group of people who want to control women’s bodies. Y’all don’t give a shit about the baby after it’s born. You’re fucking disgusting
I am not sure where you are getting that. I have donated both time and money to helping mothers and their babies/children. I also support policies that hold fathers financially and emotionally accountable for the wellbeing of their children to help equalize the burden of children.
I consider myself to be anti abortion but at the same time I can understand the other side especially if it involves rape and incest. I can also see the case if there were money problems or health problems. I will admit that under those circumstances I can understand but I do struggle sometimes because at the end of the day it’s a human being no matter how small. I’ve tried to see the other side and I just can’t. Does that make me a bad person? I promise you I have really tried.
It doesn't make you a bad person. As an ex-religious person who has had an abortion believe me, it took me 4+ years to even consider that I wasn't horrible and selfish for my decision.
Believe me I get where you're coming from. My advice is to really be as empathetic as possible to the women who decide to get abortions because no reasoning is exactly the same. On my end I was not mature or mentally stable enough to even experience pregnancy (which I had been trying to prevent). Even being pregnant was something that drove me to suicidal thoughts and I'm very convinced that bringing a baby to term would've resulted in self-inflicted harm to myself, or unintentional harm to my fetus or baby.
That's not to say every abortion decision is made under as extreme circumstances, because for some women it's as simple as they just can't do it. I definitely urge you to take some of the empathy you have and extend it to the vulnerable or scared women who are forced to make this decision, which is often an insanely hard decision to make but also the best decision for them at the time.
If one truly believes that life matters, then you absolutely must care about the life of the person considering the abortion. What is their situation and what is best for them? That person (keyword here) is the most important consideration. No one gets an abortion for fun. No one is using it as a form of birth control. Folks do it because it's the best possible outcome, financially, physically, mentally or emotionally for them.
If it's only about a fetus, you might just be pro birth.
No judgement from me either way, everyone is allowed to have an opinion or a feeling on a topic. Until and unless you harrass people, be it in their private lives or outside of clinics. I consider that kind of person 100% fair game.
Also you can totally be anti abortion personally, and also pro choice for other people because their choices don't affect you.
@fundieofatime why should the pregnant person be the most important person to consider? Barring rape, that person consented to the possibility of a pregnancy, but the fetus did not. Yes, this is unfair to women, but life is inherently unfair.
FWIW, I believe abortion should be “safe, legal, and rare.” It is morally wrong, but there are instances where it is a necessary evil. I’m not here to judge people who have had abortions, I love many such people, but after a lot of internal struggle, I no longer wish to pretend like ending innocent lives is a moral good.
Well that’s something
Do you ever think that fundies don't actually like Chick-fil-A because they think it's actually good but because of the homophobia and other terrible views
I think there's definitely like, a low key campaign to support Chick Fil A because it supports conservative 'values' and is relatively mainstream.
I don't know if every time a fundie kid goes there they're consciously thinking about that, but I think there's a 'cool' culture around it for them due to it being both popular and openly religious.
Also their food slaps
As someone who lives in Popeye's and Church's country (as do most fundies) I have to respectfully disagree. Way better chicken sans homophobia.
Chik fil A is the only Celiac friendly drive-thru and has the only Celiac friendly French fries anywhere near me. As a Celiac, I am *very* thankful for their gluten free options.
Add Karissa Collins to the list of fundie people who have The Rug.
Was recently at a baby shower with The Rug
He is so sanctimonious. Dealing with his reaction would be worse than temporarily giving up bacon.
We forgot about it
I once signed up to participate in a study on how depression affects memory, forgot I was meant to go do it, and when I emailed to apologise to the PhD student running it she basically told me that a) she was very used to this happening and b) the weird irony of her theories’ correctness making it very difficult to arrange proving them had by now gone from infuriating to hysterical
I went to the Grand Canyon when I was depressed and I literally forgot the whole thing. Like, the only reason I even know I was there is that I have photographs of myself standing in front of the Grand Canyon with dead eyes but i have absolutely no memory of it
People talk about depression like it’s just being sad all the time but straight up your brain stops working and sadness is just one of the many, many consequences of that
I was raped during law school and there are huge swaths of time that I straight up don’t remember. I would have to write appointments down as they were being scheduled because I would have no recollection two minutes later.
Head’s up: gentle criticism, & if you’d rather not post this I understand! I think it is unnecessarily unkind to wish Coronavirus on trump. I understand how you must feel about him & must disagree with his handling of it, but I think it is a bit far to wish the virus on him.
I completely respect your opinion, and I wish I could say I was joking, but I really would feel nothing if he got hit by a bus right now and that’s not an exaggeration.
He’s made so many people suffer unnecessarily with COVID, he deserves a taste of his own medicine.
there are very few people i’d wish covid upon. trump is one of those people.
I have an aunt who is a hardcore pro-life Catholic, and she’s actually said “I know this is awful and I shouldn’t say this, but…I wish something bad would happen to him.” Besides being against her religion, which is a huge part of her life, the woman is a fucking saint. Her mother had severe dementia for over a decade, and she lived with her up until the day she died. She’s nice to everyone. And she’s ready for the screaming cheeto to drop dead. Like…if this woman hates you, you have a real gift for being a horrible person. So…yeah, no, I think wishing COVID on him is more than fair. For whatever it’s worth.
I have to say it’s interesting to me how people fluttered and cooed with concern when Carlin and Evan contracted COVID, but wish death on Trump. These aren’t kids anymore, forced to be in a cult. They are fully grown and have seen enough of the world to realize their parents’ beliefs are bullshit, yet they have . chosen to continue on the same path. I do get the differences, but, here is my most likely unpopular opinion: They are more similar to Trump than different. Why do cute, young fundies get a pass? Is it because they are attractive, glossy, and know how to work their social media presence? Is it because they have an adorable baby named Layla? Because, honestly, I think people forget that Carlin and Evan, along with their respective families, are Trump supporters. They actively work against many groups who have to fight for their most basic human rights. They want women to go back to an even more marginalized state. Their belief system accepts child and sexual abuse as normal behavior, and actually blames the victims for turning the abusers’ eye toward them. So, where is the line drawn? Trump is the kingpin of his own evil empire, and God help us if he gets another four years, but these are his willing subjects and flunkies. They are wolves in sheep’s clothing; they are dangerous, and they have a platform to influence their followers who don’t understand what they really are.
Lmao I did not ‘flutter and coo’ over Evan and Carlin, I said it was their fault that they caught it and that they were dumb to not take it seriously with a sick infant.
Edit: Also comparing Evan and Carlin to Donald Trump is like comparing a kid in Jonestown to Jim Jones.
@spurgie-cousin that’s a very apt comparison.
Sure one can argue that they’re the same as trump but like.. they’re not? Yeah they’ve got toxic ass beliefs but breaking away from those means likely losing their family, probably friends. Its huge. They don’t really have the same options as someone outside the cult. We all know what their cult stands for. But to say theyre as dangerous as trump is well.. like saying exactly what you said and I literally couldn’t agree with you more.
The thing about Trump is that he is a leader with great power and influence. He has failed to act as a leader should in the face of this pandemic. Contracting the disease might wake him up to this reality. Do I want him ill because I want him to suffer? No. Do I think him becoming ill would prevent the illness of thousands of others? Yes.
