*feanor singing* I like big gems and I cannot lie, you other mothers canât deny, when a vala walks up with an itty bitty waist and gets all up in your face you say get thee gone from my gate thou jail crow of mandos
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@greenwoodthegreat
*feanor singing* I like big gems and I cannot lie, you other mothers canât deny, when a vala walks up with an itty bitty waist and gets all up in your face you say get thee gone from my gate thou jail crow of mandos
The fact that Tolkien is on record as saying that Faramir just walked out of the Ithilien woods and Tolkien did not know or plan for him prior to that is especially funny to me in light of Boromir's introduction.
Because I would imagine the writing process went like this:
Boromir, the Steward of Gondor's only son, is sent a vision telling him to go to Rivendell so that he can represent Gondor at the Council. Reasonable.
A whole book later, Faramir shows up. Turns out to be Boromir's younger brother. Is his own generally awesome self.
Much later, Tolkien goes back to the Council in the editing process and realizes, "Wait. Why would the higher powers ever send Boromir a vision to go to Rivendell when Faramir is right there?? They WOULDN'T. OBVIOUSLY."
Tolkien, presumably: "Hmmmmmmmph... All right. What if Faramir did get the dream first, several times, but Denethor simply refused to pay attention until the dream gave up and shifted to Boromir."
Which not only returns the plot to a plausible shape but is, in fact, distressingly in character, and adds another fun layer of tragedy to Boromir's death. Good editing! But it's also funny to look at that and realize that it was (I would guess) really just Tolkien writing himself out of a Faramir-created plot hole and turning it to good use.
God the like Generic High Fantasy Elf frustrates me so much as a fan of Tolkiens elves who are like. Both balls to the wall insane and canonically fun at parties
Theyâre fairies. theyâre in a musical. They host crazy feasts with live music and hopping dance floors and great booze. If they get too sad they die. Theyâre psychic. Theyâre creative and curious and they live forever and never ever forget any of it. Theyâre ghosts
They committed almost all war crimes imaginable.
Every time Sean Astin makes a statement on whether or not Sam and Frodo were indeed gay for each other in lord of the rings heâs always like âwell we have to acknowledge that attitudes around sexuality have changed dramatically over the past several decades and since authorial intent is only up to speculation, the story is open to multiple readings, some of which might have different significances for different groups of people also they kiss on the lips because I said soâ
at the rose city comic con panel this month a fan asked them (sean and elijah) if sam and frodo were in love and they said
Sean: .....yes. absolutely
Elijah: 100 percent.
Sean: dont tell rosie
Rosie: "This is my husband Sam, and that's his husband, Frodo. Frodo is my husband-in-law. I'm not into him, he's he's a bit too 'elfy' for my taste, but Sam likes him, and that's fine with me. As far as I know, Frodo can't give Sam children, but Frodo looks after ours all the same, so I don't mind sharing Sam if it means another pair of eyes on the wee ones. In all honesty, our family tree is right simple compared to some hobbits. Yes, I'm referrin' to you Lobelia, over there pretendin' you ain't eavesdroppin'. Still bitter you ain't got either of my boys or their house, eh?"
Tbh it's canon that Frodo invited Sam and Rosie to move in to Bag End after their wedding and they all lived there for a couple of years until Frodo went to Valinor, so yeah. Running with it.
And once Rosie dies, Sam says his goodbyes and disappears after him.
whatâs funny is people assuming that rosie would somehow be too dim or naive to KNOW that sam loved frodo, instead of looking at a guy who would loyally follow a beloved friend to hell and then help carry him home again, and not be like âoh i canât not fuck that.â
Polyamory, specifically polyandry, would be an interesting solution to the oddball population of the Shire.
The Shire is excellent farming country, with consistently good weather, and only one tough winter in living memory; hobbits like to produce large families; theyâre resistant to disease, rarely violent, and encounter few dangers. It is usual for hobbits to produce many children, so that (for example) Bilbo and Frodo are unusual in both being only children, with no siblings, and not having children of their own. All of this should point to a population that increases every generation if not doubling outright. Young people (and their ideologies!) should rapidly outnumber the old with an ever-increasing effect and impact on society. However, the Shire has a surprisingly stable history; it never seems to increase or decrease greatly in population, and the bell curve of age seems⊠demographically balanced? There certainly isnât a conflict from rising young bloods challenging the middle-aged reactionaries; thereâs no unemployment; there are no housing crises or waves of emigration, or even a tendency for young people leaving home to marry. Meanwhile, not only does the Shire not suffer from internal pressures, but it remains obscure and hardly noticed in global politics.
What makes sense here is that adult hobbits form a loose group. Four parents in a polycule, between them all, may produce four children. All four parents claim to have four children. An outsider would assume this meant the adults had eight children.
Hobbits therefore are not especially fertile or fecund. They simply have large families. Much of their interest in genealogy is due to the complex relationships of blood-kin, hearth-kin, love-kin and pledge-kin, who must all be carefully tracked and measured - not just because you need to make sure that you donât climb into bed with an un-permitted degree of blood-kin, but to track family alliances and carefully quantify the precise level of thoughtfulness to put into the proper present to gift your fatherâs loverâs lover (too much implies a degree of intimacy that might upset the polycule.)
Thus, while a hobbit matron may tell a startled dwarf that she has seven sons, she might only have borne five of them herself, and have one hearth-son by her wife, and a pledge-son of her first husbandâs. There are between three and four fathers involved at various stages of production, from conception to pledge-duty, but there is debate about the precise number of fathers, as one child was festival-conceived and therefore provisionally pledged to the Brandybucks until more distinctive paternal traits should materialise. Itâs expected that four of the sons will be uninterested in women, and their contribution to family life will be in raising hearth-children and pledge-duty. However, this level of detail is normally negotiated later in conversation, as a mutual overture of friendship. So sheâs just clear and simple: yes, certainly, she has seven sons. Yes, theyâre all hers. Yes, thatâs fairly normal - yes, hobbits like big families. How big? Thatâs really hard to say! Well, about thirteen hobbits live in her house⊠er, she has forty-three nieces and nephews. Yes! She has nine siblings, thatâs correct, but some of them are still babies themselves..
In this way, a bewildered dwarf might assume that hobbits are absurdly fertile, producing an average of seven children per couple, at an absurd pace.
When in fact, with about half of hobbits never bearing biological children, the population of hobbits is pretty much always the same.
Tl:dr, hobbit population works perfectly well, both internally and in the perceptions of outsiders, if the majority of the Shire is gay, theyâre all polyamorous, and they all firmly claim to be parents of high numbers of children. Of course Frodo fathered Samâs kids - he named them! They were pledge-kin but not hearth-kin, as Frodo needed a lot of quiet and stability in the home.
No outsider ever parses hobbit genealogy well enough to understand this except for Gandalf, who never explains anything either.
are you kidding? Gandalf would WEAPONIZE his knowledge of Hobbit genealogy against outsiders
Since âpledgeâ kinships are multidimensional and can occur in different directions, hobbits can form - and formalise - family bonds simply because they choose to. Gandalf doesnât tell anyone that the formation of Thorinâs Company, the Fellowship of the Ring, and Belladonna Tookâs Accidental Troop of Mercenaries* are legal formations of pledge-siblings, a hobbit family structure usually claimed to increase social class and prestige (as high numbers of pledge-kin confer distinction on a hobbit, being a sort of popularity vote/endorsement that adds greatly to their social power. Incidentally, this is partly why Bilbo was both controversial and successful in his pledge-claim of Frodo; outsiders mistook his âbachelorâ status as someone living outside of heteronormativity, while the Shire was bewildered and increasingly annoyed by his rejection of pledge and hearth commitments. By rights Bilbo had too few pledge-kin, and too little parenting experience, to claim rights to an orphan, especially one from Brandybuck hearth; but conversely, his social status was high enough that his belated bid for his very first pledge-son couldnât reasonably be denied by anybody.)
In short, all of the hobbits enjoyed achieving even larger families on their adventures, legally and without argument or debate. Itâs free real estate. If nobody else is going to sibling these losers, we will. (The condensation of so many entanglements at once also legally made Pippin his own father-in-law.)
Gandalf never explained.
* see the post about the Old Tookâs âenchanted diamond cufflinksâ that obeyed the wearerâs commands; which were probably, given the general state of things, two lost silmarils recovered by his Remarkable Daughters and gifted to him because things stay small and safe in the shire
@elodieunderglass wouldn't that make pippin both denethor's pledge-son-in-law, and (as pledge-brother to the king) probably outrank him?
Only through Boromir while Boromir was alive! Pippinâs familial claim through Boromir technically dissolved on Boromirâs death, as Denethor hadnât been privy to it, and those bonds rarely stretch to a stranger when the person in the middle has died before introducing them; although Pippin, who was well-brought-up, perfectly and politely rectified the problem at once by simply swearing himself as Denethorâs pledge-son. but through his blood-cousinship to Frodo, who was older than Boromir, his status as the Took double-primarc (donât ask) and the proximity-enhanced status-doubling effects of having a five-way cousin in Merry, Pippin was demonstrably higher status as a pledge-sibling and was also his own father-in-law and approved of himself. As such, he would have significantly raised Boromirâs social status and marital prospects in the Shire.
Inheritance follows parent-child pledge as the primary consideration, with matrilineal descent as the secondary. Pippin would have been bewildered to gradually understand that Denethor held his two sons in such odd and different standing :-/ hobbits donât recognise kingship so it wouldâve been very upsetting and disappointing to Pippin to understand how Denethor stood in position of sworn-father to a whole city of people without even being slightly fair to his younger hearth-son. Aragorn is demonstrably much better dad-material and therefore had Pippinâs vote. Pippin, by virtue of being an excellent father-in-law to a spectacularly promising young son-in-law, also considered himself a better candidate for king of Gondor than Denethor, by outranking him in Dad Competence - but was too busy by the time he realized this to point this out .
Ironically, the events in which Pippin realized this made Faramir his own hearth-son - so Pippin won in the end and took a great interest in ceremonially approving of Eowyn. Gandalf never explained
WIBTA if I refused to give a family heirloom away?
I (36M) recently inherited the throne of my grandfatherâs kingdom. I also inherited a family heirloom - a necklace containing a holy jewel that my parents liberated from the possession of an evil tyrant. This jewel had been in the tyrantâs possession for centuries, and my parents risked everything in their quest for it. My mother was kidnapped! My father was tortured, and later had his hand bitten off! Both of them died! (They came back, but still.) Their quest for the jewel became a symbol of hope to everyone on our continent - it showed that the tyrant could be successfully defied.
The tyrant in question originally stole this jewel and two others like it from their creator, a person Iâll call F (dead, M). Fâs sons are determined to get these jewels back. They actually killed many of my great-uncleâs people, who were completely innocent, so they could steal their ships and sail to this continent in pursuit of the jewels. But when my parents went on their quest, Fâs sons did not take the opportunity to help them liberate the jewels - instead they decided that my parents were their enemies. They deliberately sent my father to what they thought would be a torturous death, and then they not only kidnapped my mother to stop her from rescuing him, they tried to force her to marry one of them! After she escaped them and rescued my father, they again tried to kidnap her and then to kill her, severely wounding my father as he took the blow instead.
The point is, these people have shown themselves over and over to have nothing but hatred and contempt for my family. They are callous and cruel, and if anything they owe us many times over for all the violence theyâve committed against us! And they seem more invested in keeping anyone else from even looking at the jewels than in actually freeing them from the tyrantâs possession.
You can probably guess what Iâm leading up to here. Just a few days ago I received a letter from the oldest son of F, who weâll call M (4000ish I believe, M). He demanded that I hand over the jewel my parents liberated.
Of course my first reaction was outrage. How dare M demand anything of me after everything his brothers did to my parents? (And another thing - the necklace the jewel is currently set in? That belonged to a dear friend of my fatherâs family, who was ALSO betrayed to his death by Fâs sons.) In his letter, M pointed out that the tyrant originally stole the jewel from his father F, and I agree that ordinarily that would mean M and his brothers should inherit it. But given everything the jewel means to my family and people, and everything my parents risked to free it, while Fâs sons not only refused to lift a finger to help them but actually tried to get them killed, I think at this point we have more of a right to it than they do.
Honestly, Iâm seriously considering telling them to get their own. Itâs not like there arenât another two in the same place my parents got this one! If they want one, why shouldnât they put in the same effort and sacrifice my parents had to?
AITA?
YTA
NTA
JAH
NAH
ESH
INFO
Y'all need to see this omfg this is so good holy shit I'm so normal about this
Lammoth(?) aka Melkor and his 3-7 bodyguards
Bonus: Sauronâs angels
VILLAIN THROWDOWN FINALS
MADARA vs ZABUZA AND HAKU
Madara
Zabuza and Haku
The Ancestor Problem
This issue popped up for me when I was writing âA Guide to Feanorian Elves,â and since the problem will also be mildly relevant to a story Iâm planning to write once I finally get all the prompts done, Iâve kept mulling over it.
And that problem is great-great-great-grandparents.
In English, we donât really need a quicker or more eloquent way of phrasing this. Unless youâre really into genealogy, you probably wonât refer to anyone that far back all that much, and you certainly arenât going to be talking to them.
Elves, on the other hand, are a different story.
(Note: All of the following references to elvish are based on information from elfdict.com. It is entirely possible Iâve gotten something mixed up here, and if so, please feel free to correct me on it.)
Letâs say Elladan and/or Elrohir eventually sail West. There theyâd see their father, which elvish has several words for, and their paternal grandfather, which Quenya also has a word for.Â
But assuming that Idril and Tuor made it then, at the very least, their great-grandmother would also be there, which no form of elvish has a word for. There are several options for âgreatâ though, and saying great-grandmother isnât too much of a mouthful, right?
Except there are good odds that Turgon is either already released from Mandos or will be eventually - and even if heâs not, talking about that fact is a conversation thatâs sure to come up from time to time, and great-great-grandfather is starting to get a little awkward.
And even if Fingolfin is never released, which seems doubtful, Anaire is still very much alive and great-great-great-grandmother really doesnât roll off the tongue.
And while Finwe is definitely not coming back, Indis is still very much around, and by the time we get to four greats things are definitely starting to get ridiculous.
So what do the elves do? At a certain degree of familial distance do they just call each other by whatever name or title a non-related elf would use? If so, what degree of distance is it? Or do they stick to variations on grandfather/grandmother and leave the exact number of generations as a matter for family trees? Or do they eventually give in and come up with new words for each degree of generational distance?
Thoughts?Â
We have a sort of example for this sort of relationship, if we look at how Celeborn speaks to Aragorn (Celeborn being Aragornâs wifeâs motherâs father, but also distantly related to him through Thingol and Elwing) Celeborn just calls him âkinsmanâ. I feel that kinsman/kinswoman and cousin are both pleasingly imprecise words that are ideal for this sort of situation. I think that Elrond probably calls most of Elrosâs many many descendants ânephewâ. (Maybe not the Nazgul, if any of them are descended from Elros. They probably get disownedâŠ) Â
But kinsman /cousin are also useful terms for his relationship with Maglor, since other terms such as âfatherâ or âkidnapperâ are a bit⊠loaded.Â
Obviously Bilbo will find this all infuriatingly imprecise when he gets to Valinor, and he and Frodo will probably spend a lot of time making elaborate charts so they can work out the exact degree that everyone is related, and possibly make up new words for all of them too.Â
That makes sense!Â
And I think youâre absolutely right - the hobbits would be very frustrated by all this.
Fuckin. Get thee gone from my blog thou pornbots of tumblr
Could I ask for 20,22 and 56?
Here you go!
âŠ
The Halls of Mandos were seemingly endless.
Feanor said âseeminglyâ because the walls were also endlessly shifting, and it was impossible to take any kind of accurate measurement under those conditions.
The walls were misty grey, and every so often they dissolved back to banks of fog that roiled through the caverns until they solidified back into walls, now in entirely new configurations.
It was an unsolvable labyrinth, and Feanorâs frustration with it only grew when the walls dissipated and reformed just as he caught his first glimpse of another fĂ«a in the Halls. When the walls were solid once more, the other figure had vanished form sight, now Mandos only knew how many turns of the labyrinth away from him.Â
That happened twice more in quick succession - too many times for it to be mere coincidence. Apparently, Mandos preferred to keep them in isolation. Perhaps he thought it would encourage reflection.
Feanor had been an inch away from one of his followers, both of them having sprinted towards each other, when a wall went up between them. The only thing Feanor was reflecting on was his desire to punch Mandos in the teeth.
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Oh god don't take risk assessments from Fingon, Gil-galad. I'm so glad the family claims him, and I'm curious to hear the author's theory on where this one is from. My dumb theory: since the Elves' Maia heritage is down to Elrond, his sons, and maybe Elured and Elurin, it would be nice if he turned out to be related to the missing twins. My actual theory: no one in particular, the world is built by the ones who show up to work.
Itâs not a dumb theory! Itâs not, however, what I went with. For that, see below.
Quick note: Maglorâs wife in this is the same as his wife in my alternate character interpretation snippet for her. This will probably make more sense if you read that first.
Maedhros is barely a shadow when he first gets there, but Fingon stubbornly sticks around.
When Maedhros is well enough to listen and, in his opinion, in need of some distraction, he finally asks.
âIâm trying to figure out Gil-Galadâs parentage. I donât suppose you know?â
Maehros looks startled, which is at least better than horrifically depressed. âHeâs not yours?â
Fingonâs heard that from others. A lot of others. He doesnât know why everyone keeps assuming that.
âNot mine.â
Heâll have to try Maedhrosâs brothers later. For now, heâs right where he needs to be.Â
âFingon,â Curufin says from his place on the floor. He hasnât bothered to open his eyes. Fingon never did learn the trick to that. âWhat do you want?â
Nice to see his time in Mandos hasnât changed him. âTo talk.â
âAbout?â
Fingon gives up and gets straight to the point. âOffspring.â
Curufin cracks one eye open and rolls over to face him. His face is shadowed through the bars. âI didnât think you had any.â
âYours,â he clarifies.Â
That catches Curufinâs attention completely. He rolls to his feet, face tense. âHas something happened to Celebrimbor? The tapestries here are useless.â
Whoeverâs in charge of these things apparently decided Curufin would benefit from graphic scenes of Finrodâs imprisonment. Fingonâs been trying not to look at them.
âHeâs fine,â he assures him. âOr at least he was fine the last time someone died, there hasnât been nearly as much of that going around since the war ended. I wanted to ask about the potential for ⊠other offspring.â
Curufin looks around the lonely confines his cell with grim amusement. The bars are set deep into the stone. If thereâs hinges or a lock, they arenât visible. âAt the moment, I would say the potential was low.â
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Reblogging with tags.
Where Is the Power that Made Your Pride?
Title is from Rudyard Kiplingâs âWhat of the Hunting, Hunter Bold?â
(Also, please note that the following story is from Celegormâs perspective. All views expressed therein are Celegormâs opinions, not necessarily mine.)
âŠ
Curufin had always talked fast. His ideas flowed far faster than his mouth could move, but that didnât stop his mouth from desperately trying to keep up.
Their father had done it to a certain extent too, but their fatherâs innate respect for language had at least kept him intelligible. Curufin had no such boundaries, and when he got particularly excited, his words had a tendency to run together into a block of sound that left intense impressions on the listenerâs mind without imparting anything so mundane as specifics.Â
Celegorm was the only one who could reliably translate those rants. He was well used to decoding messages no one else thought of as language. He was the one who could capture his little brotherâs brilliant ideas and summarize them for everyone else. Language was Celegormâs portion of the family genius, and he was never more proud of it than then.
What had finally slowed his brotherâs lightning mouth was Sindarin. Curufin had learned to speak it carefully, even through his scorn. He had refused to give anyone grounds to mock him for his ability with the tongue, and so he was careful to speak it perfectly, which precluded speaking at his closest approximation of the speed of thought. By the time he had learned the language perfectly, he was out of the habit.
Celegorm still held a grudge against Thingol for that.
Curufin was talking slowly now, painfully slowly, and Celegorm cursed not only Thingol but every member of his line as he knelt in the accursed halls of Doriath and held his broken brother in his arms.
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If you vote, please reblog so it can reach more people.
(I wouldn't normally ask, but this is a serious poll that I am genuinely interested in learning the results of.)
saruman: i have decided, my fellow maia sauron who was once called mairon, to join you ally with your power. you have my dedication in respect for both your strength and our shared history
sauron: i see your dedication and i thank you for it. our old friendship shall be rekindled and taken forth anew
sauron, aside to the witch-king: i have no fucking clue who this guy is
Lammoth(?) aka Melkor and his 3-7 bodyguards
Bonus: Sauronâs angels
Frodo: How do you know my name?
Elves: We have seen you often before with Bilbo, though you may not have seen us.
Frodo: thatâs super creepy.