discourse sideblog

(main is queerrussetpotato) they/them genderqueer lesbian

[ihateyoufightme]

But if you categorize people who are attracted to children into 2 completely different nonoverlapping classes based on whether or not they are distressed and seek treatment, even though their (inherent?) attraction patterns are the same, the problems that could arise from that include what to do with people who feel unsafe seeking treatment and trust their own ability to keep themselves from ever harming children… afaik there are a lot of those and they don’t exactly have it easy.

if they feel unsafe seeking treatment, they’re still mentally ill; what determines if you are mentally ill or not is whether or not the urges/thoughts are distressing and unwanted. if they are, it’s a disorder. seeking treatment just means that it’s definite that’s what’s going on. i know that not everyone can seek treatment; that’s an issue with how the subject is handled in general, but those people are still mentally ill whether or not they see a therapist about it, just as are other mentally ill people who aren’t in treatment.

that said... i’m retiring this blog, as stated on the page, and this is also a subject i’m sure i’ve already stepped outside my lane on since i’m not a survivor of CSA specifically, so i’m probably not going to answer any more asks on the subject. i’m only still seeing asks because transition to a different blog isn’t complete and i keep logging back in because of that.

[ihateyoufightme]

The Thing you said about consenting to and enjoying sex without attraction and how that is inherently different and less intense, is really important and beautiful and helped me (sexually active bi ace) better think about and word things that happen in my life. Were it not for the fact that a) explaining the context of exclusionist discourse is super complicated, and b) caring that much about it as a mostly-closeted adult my age, is embarrassing, I would absolutely show this post to my boyfriend

you caught me at the exact time when i’m closing this blog down for good so i just want to say i’m glad that i was able to be helpful to you by relating my experiences! i’m glad i had something of a positve effect on at least someone with my attempts at discourse. i totally wish you luck

[ihateyoufightme]

You know what, though? Maybe THIS is the last post I’ll make here. Better just lay out whats going on here.

1) I don’t think paraphilia is a mental illness, but the definition of a paraphilic disorder is when a paraphilia become a distressing or disabling. If someone with a paraphilia involving children is not distressed or disabled by it, then that person is not mentally ill and is a hella creepy predator, not for having that paraphilia, but for having no issue with it or with acting on it. However, if they DO experience distress and seek treatment, then they are by definition mentally ill, because at that point it ceases to be a paraphilia and becomes a paraphilic disorder. They literally have unwanted intrusive thoughts and urges. Ergo, if someone seeks treatment, they’re not a pedophile, they’re a mentally ill person who obviously does not want to offend.

Opposing offenders and those who think their paraphilia is a-okay while not opposing people with mental illness does not make someone a fucking pedophile apologist. It also doesn’t mean they think pedophilia is inherently a mental illness.

2) When I’ve seen someone on here say that “not all pedophiles are child molesters” they are trying to exempt mentally people, not actual pedophiles, and they use this phrasing because they know that most people do not differentiate and consider the mentally ill people to be the same as those who just have a paraphilia, not a paraphilic disorder. This is because most people basically think that there IS no difference – if you have a paraphilia or a paraphilic disorder makes no difference, you’re still a pedophile, because just having those thoughts and urges is considered the same as offending, whether or not the thoughts and urges are unwanted or terrifying or horrifying to the person having them. This most affects not just mentally ill people with these disorders, but all mentally ill people with intrusive thoughts, because equating thoughts and actions is horrible. Ergo, saying "not all pedophiles are child molesters" is using "pedophile" the way it's most commonly used, to try to get the point across to people who don't know the difference between mental illness and paraphilia.

Calling people apologists for saying this is a willful misinterpretation of what’s being discussed, and it’s particularly nasty because it’s super easy to ignore all the context.

They are also trying to call attention to the fact that most child molesters have no attraction to children and prey on them because they’re easy to have power over and easy to groom/isolate, whereas saying that all child molesters must be pedophiles indicates that somehow CSA is the only form of rape where attraction, not power, is the main motivation for offenders.

3) Calling CSA survivors apologists and pedophile supporters helps no one, full stop. It damages those survivors permanently, and it tells other survivors that they can’t talk about the subject without first agreeing that all molesters are pedophiles, even if the person(s) who preyed on them was not.

It also shuts down avenues for people with disorders to seek treatment, which makes it more likely they will eventually offend. It literally endangers children.

4) All of this pertains to the callout post below. All of it.

5) I was literally told that the reason these people are apologists is basically the phrasing they use to discuss the issue. The person told me that obviously people with pedophilic disorders are mentally ill, but that someone who was attempting to say that exact thing is an apologist because they said it wrong, as illustrated above. Because they said “not all pedophiles are child molesters” when what they meant was “people with a paraphilic disorder are mentally ill and are not the same as those with a non-disorder paraphilia, and those people are not molesters and deserve help” makes the person an apologist. That literally just happened. When I pointed out what was meant in those posts, which is evident from the posts themselves if read below a surface level, I was told I was flat-out wrong.

6) This is why I hate humans and probably won’t come back here.

[ihateyoufightme]

Good fucking bye to all the former followers who unfollowed because I don't think CSA survivors should be called apologists for talking about ways to end CSA. Won't miss you. That said, I'm not talking about this anymore on this blog. I'm not even sure I'm coming back to this blog at this point. Congrats, both sides are thoroughly toxic now, gg.

[threebigreceipts]

Part 1.

To the Anti Community and SGA/AroAce Discoursers:

This is a call out for intersex-ionality / vergess

Supporter of DDLG (and subsets), MAPs (pedophiles), harmful coping mechanisms, public kink, and harassment* (including but not limited to taking over a post and refusing to delete additions when asked, ganging up and attacking a minor, and much, much more.)

# Rape # Abuse # CSA # Pedophilia # CSA # Kink # Ableism

Keep reading

[threebigreceipts]

Update on: 11/1/16 Someone name dropped me and pointed out this call out post and a shit-storm ensued.

Screencaps are of intersex-ionality’s responses to the call out.

Keep reading

[threebigreceipts]

Update on: Theangrybi and Wetwareproblem

These two blogs are very close to intersex-ionality and were two of the most dismissive/manipulative (in the case of Theangrybi) and violently victim blaming (in the case of Wetwareproblem) people on the original callout thread.

Keep reading

[threebigreceipts]

Update on: 1/ 4 /17 Ey shot emself in the foot, making a post defending pedophilia.

Keep reading

[ihateyoufightme]

*long-ass sigh*

once again, at least some of these “receipts” (i haven’t read all of them, not in a great place to) don’t say what they claim, and apparently OP doesn’t think people will check

also bonus points for calling people with BPD manipulative

can this, like, fucking stop? i’m so fucking done with CSA survivors being called pedophiles in an attempt to smear and trigger them when they attempt to talk about their own experiences and what current medical literature actually says about pedophilia

i am seriously just going to quit this entire blog if i keep seeing these. actually read the damn receipts before you reblog

[todothetalking]

Hi. All these receipts say is that this person supports pedophiles, which is gross, and people defended them. Not that they’re a fucking pedophile. And all of the sources back up that claim.

They literally made a post calling pedophiles mentally ill victims. Like.

Bonus points: I have PDNOS. I’m a CSA survivor. Don’t try to pull those cards on me what the fuck.

-Red

[ihateyoufightme]

No, they made a post talking about how people with unwanted intrusive thoughts are mentally ill, and that this shit splashes onto them because most people include them when they say “pedophiles” despite that most with intrusive thoughts are survivors. It’s called context.

I don’t have cards to play. You maybe want to tell me why you think there’s no difference between child molesters, people with a paraphilia, and people with intrusive thoughts, and why the latter group deserves to be lumped in with the first two? You want to explain why saying most child molesters are not pedophiles is included as a receipt, despite that being true, and why a survivor speaking out against the ignoring of non-pedophile offenders in these discussions is also a receipt?

[todothetalking]

No. They did not. Pedophila isn’t inherent a mental illness. You know what is? Pedophilc disorder. There’s a difference between pedophilia and pedophilic disorder. One is a mental illness, which can be helped and settled with therapy and treatment, and the other is fucking terrible.

Not all pedophiles are mentally ill. And trying to say that is an insult to ever mentally ill person ever.

There’s a difference between people with paraphillia, intrusive thoughts, and child molesters. I know that. Except. Whoops. Paraphilias aren’t inherently considered a disorder. Who knew? (Me. Because I’ve done my Goodman research.)

Also. “I don’t have cards to play” Following “I’m going to covertly insist your bad by derailing you point completely bc someone is mentally ill” when I have that same fucking illness.

Also, As someone with sometimes sick and violent intrusive thoughts; People with intrusive thoughts aren’t bad. But, guess what, the majority of pedophiles do not have them and if they do they aren’t doing themselves any good by calling themselves “MAPS” or “NOPS”, insisting the content of their thoughts is just fine, and labeling their thoughts “attraction”. For example, as someone with primarily violent thoughts, I wouldn’t fucking dream of labeling myself a “non-offending murderer”, like?

-Red

[ihateyoufightme]

I suspect we’re accidentally talking about different people in this callout, which I’ll say is likely my fault, but you’re also coming so, so late to this shit. There have been multiple “callouts” of this type for these people, and they have not only been called outright pedophiles, people have gone so far as to Photoshop fake asks to smear them

I didn’t intend to covertly suggest anything. I’m autistic and I say what I mean. I don’t think you’re bad and didn’t say so. I am not here to play cards and insisting I am isn’t doing either of us any favors

So what you’re angry about with vergess is that the user is… not differentiating enough between those with paraphilia and those with intrusive thoughts when they talk about mental illness, the very thing someone else in this same callout was objecting to which got them slapped with a “receipt”? That this CSA survivor has misinterpreted the medical literature and therefore literally is as bad as their abuser, and anyone who thinks the same as they do is also just as bad? That you think they meaningfully support child molestation in any way? That’s really why you’re saying this callout is legit? All three people being called out in this ARE mentally ill survivors, and that’s a fact, so why exactly are you so terribly eager to tell them their understanding of the situation makes them monsters even if you think they’re wrong? Hell, i’m not even sure from context exactly what you mean by pedophilia vs. pedophilic disorders because you haven’t explained what you think falls under each of those two categories, and you still don’t think maybe you’re having a definitional problem?

Additionally I never said, nor do I think, that paraphilia is a mental illness. If you look at my post, you’ll see I intentionally did not group it with intrusive thoughts. Who knew? (Me, because I said what I meant.)

I’m not here to debate whether non-offending pedophiles with paraphilia ought to label themselves or whatever, I’m here to talk about why this callout is bullshit and why it’s silencing other survivors and why it doesn’t prove they “support pedophiles” because they fucking don’t.

Why, again, are you accepting a callout in which one of the “receipts” is a bi trans woman csa survivor talking about how she was assaulted by a non-pedophile offender and objecting to others talking as if all molesters are pedophiles, when it’s obvious that csa, like other kinds of rape, is about power and not attraction?

Like you can disagree with other survivors without those other survivors being Bad Survivors Who Deserve To Be Shunned, and since all of them literally want child predation to end, perhaps you should think about holding a dialogue with them about it instead of going “welp, another survivor said something I don’t think is true and that I think is harmful, better agree to shun them and spread how horrible they are around the internet and also anyone who doesn’t shun them is just as bad”

I also have nasty and sometimes violent intrusive thoughts but I guess that’s one of those cards I shouldn’t play, but you’re free to

[todothetalking]

Okay. We’re done here. All the call out post said was that this person supported pedophiles. Which they do. I’m not wrong in that regards.

I’m not playing cards, I’m defending against the ones you keep trying to pull on me.

You keep trying to suggest I’m somehow against mentally ill people, I’m mentally ill. You keep trying to suggest I’m against survivors, I’m a survivor.

I was attacked and harassed in multitude by the people this post is calling out, and their followers. I was literally ganged up on by 4 to 5 adult human beings and told that I have no right to my opinion on topics that effect me because I am a child. That I should have no right to my comfort and discomfort and that, because I’m a child and obviously stupid, my opinions are formulate on nothing.

I was sent rape threats. I was told my abuser was probably not a pedo and I was projecting. My alters were violently torn down on repeat for doing what they are literally meant to do, be protectors. One alter was attacked over his children.

I was gaslit and told I said things I never said. Likes folks insisting I had said one is just as bad as their abuser. The same thing you’re doing here.

Intersex-ionality, when I found it, felt like a safe haven. But then it triggered and sent me into a violent panic because of content I was not aware of. This is a warning. To protect people who do not want to interact or be in contact with this sort of stuff.

They are a pedophile apologist and I am not ashamed to have done what I’ve done to protect other survivors.

And a note; I couldn’t ever talk to them about it, because they blocked me right off the bat, spreading my post to a community that then attacked and belittled me.

-R

[ihateyoufightme]

I’m not saying you’re against mentally ill people or survivors, which is YOU telling ME what I’m saying and being wrong about it; i’m saying as a mentally ill person and a survivor of abuse that wasn’t csa, that you’re doing harm to other survivors with this.

“Supported pedophiles” means exactly nothing in this context except that other survivors disagree with you about whether medical literature indicates pedophilia is a mental illness and/or whether people who have literally done nothing wrong should be considered child molesters, and you think it’s justified that others need to be protected from these other survivors who don’t support offenders in any way, shape, or form. They do not support pedophilia or child predation and it is absolutely disgusting to say they do when what they’re actually discussing is how to reduce that predation but you think they’re doing it wrong. They are not “apologists” and calling them that HARMS SURVIVORS, not just them, but others as well. You saw them talk about their own experiences and the ways they think csa should be combated, and decided that THAT is what “supporting pedophiles” means: they think non-offenders should get treatment without being regarded the same as offenders, and they believe the medical literature supports this. So yes, you ARE wrong about that.

You’re not against survivors, but you have no problem shitting all over the ones who are not you and who have different ideas about how child predation should be eliminated and who interpret medical findings differently from you. You are comfortable calling them apologists over this disagreement and spreading public callouts to that effect, knowing full well that as survivors, this will be irrevocably damaging to them and most people WILL consider them equivalent to their abusers, and you do not care. If you don’t think they are that bad, why else would you do this, why would you be all right with it, if you don’t think they’re literally bad and dangerous people? You’ve indicated you DO think they’re bad and dangerous for this, which is frankly terrifying. If the reason you think that is because they personally harassed you, apparently that means it’s fine to say they literally think pedophilia is okay, which if we’re being honest is what this callout means. You’re telling them that they SUPPORT WHAT HAPPENED TO THEM and are a danger to children in the same way. That’s what this post is doing. Also you’re holding them responsible for their followers as if they control them, and appear to think at least one of them was wrong to block you.

And I don’t care what others have done, or what you THINK I’m trying to do, because that has literally nothing to do with me. You refuse to engage with or even entertain the thought that your behavior is harmful, and I’m frankly not surprised you got blocked if this is how you approach this.

Stop telling ME what I’m saying, stop making me responsible for what other people have done, and stop insisting I’m attacking you for saying you’re wrong. Stop telling me I’m pulling “cards” when literally nothing you insist I’ve done is a thing I’ve done. I didn’t say you’re against survivors or mentally ill people, and telling me that’s what I really mean is a form of gaslighting my abuser used, so thanks for not only doing it to me but saying I’m doing it to you. I’m autistic, and I mean what I say and nothing more, but obviously you think I’m lying about that and just want to attack you. I literally asked, there are literal question marks, whether that was what you meant, but obviously somehow that means I was explicitly telling you that’s what you meant, because that’s not fucked up at all.

You’re right, were done here. If this posts and I therefore know you haven’t blocked me, I’ll block you.

[threebigreceipts]

Part 1.

To the Anti Community and SGA/AroAce Discoursers:

This is a call out for intersex-ionality / vergess

Supporter of DDLG (and subsets), MAPs (pedophiles), harmful coping mechanisms, public kink, and harassment* (including but not limited to taking over a post and refusing to delete additions when asked, ganging up and attacking a minor, and much, much more.)

# Rape # Abuse # CSA # Pedophilia # CSA # Kink # Ableism

Keep reading

[threebigreceipts]

Update on: 11/1/16 Someone name dropped me and pointed out this call out post and a shit-storm ensued.

Screencaps are of intersex-ionality’s responses to the call out.

Keep reading

[threebigreceipts]

Update on: Theangrybi and Wetwareproblem

These two blogs are very close to intersex-ionality and were two of the most dismissive/manipulative (in the case of Theangrybi) and violently victim blaming (in the case of Wetwareproblem) people on the original callout thread.

Keep reading

[threebigreceipts]

Update on: 1/ 4 /17 Ey shot emself in the foot, making a post defending pedophilia.

Keep reading

[ihateyoufightme]

*long-ass sigh*

once again, at least some of these “receipts” (i haven’t read all of them, not in a great place to) don’t say what they claim, and apparently OP doesn’t think people will check

also bonus points for calling people with BPD manipulative

can this, like, fucking stop? i’m so fucking done with CSA survivors being called pedophiles in an attempt to smear and trigger them when they attempt to talk about their own experiences and what current medical literature actually says about pedophilia

i am seriously just going to quit this entire blog if i keep seeing these. actually read the damn receipts before you reblog

[todothetalking]

Hi. All these receipts say is that this person supports pedophiles, which is gross, and people defended them. Not that they’re a fucking pedophile. And all of the sources back up that claim.

They literally made a post calling pedophiles mentally ill victims. Like.

Bonus points: I have PDNOS. I’m a CSA survivor. Don’t try to pull those cards on me what the fuck.

-Red

[ihateyoufightme]

No, they made a post talking about how people with unwanted intrusive thoughts are mentally ill, and that this shit splashes onto them because most people include them when they say “pedophiles” despite that most with intrusive thoughts are survivors. It’s called context.

I don’t have cards to play. You maybe want to tell me why you think there’s no difference between child molesters, people with a paraphilia, and people with intrusive thoughts, and why the latter group deserves to be lumped in with the first two? You want to explain why saying most child molesters are not pedophiles is included as a receipt, despite that being true, and why a survivor speaking out against the ignoring of non-pedophile offenders in these discussions is also a receipt?

[todothetalking]

No. They did not. Pedophila isn’t inherent a mental illness. You know what is? Pedophilc disorder. There’s a difference between pedophilia and pedophilic disorder. One is a mental illness, which can be helped and settled with therapy and treatment, and the other is fucking terrible.

Not all pedophiles are mentally ill. And trying to say that is an insult to ever mentally ill person ever.

There’s a difference between people with paraphillia, intrusive thoughts, and child molesters. I know that. Except. Whoops. Paraphilias aren’t inherently considered a disorder. Who knew? (Me. Because I’ve done my Goodman research.)

Also. “I don’t have cards to play” Following “I’m going to covertly insist your bad by derailing you point completely bc someone is mentally ill” when I have that same fucking illness.

Also, As someone with sometimes sick and violent intrusive thoughts; People with intrusive thoughts aren’t bad. But, guess what, the majority of pedophiles do not have them and if they do they aren’t doing themselves any good by calling themselves “MAPS” or “NOPS”, insisting the content of their thoughts is just fine, and labeling their thoughts “attraction”. For example, as someone with primarily violent thoughts, I wouldn’t fucking dream of labeling myself a “non-offending murderer”, like?

-Red

[ihateyoufightme]

I suspect we're accidentally talking about different people in this callout, which I'll say is likely my fault, but you're also coming so, so late to this shit. There have been multiple "callouts" of this type for these people, and they have not only been called outright pedophiles, people have gone so far as to Photoshop fake asks to smear them

I didn't intend to covertly suggest anything. I'm autistic and I say what I mean. I don't think you're bad and didn't say so. I am not here to play cards and insisting I am isn't doing either of us any favors

So what you're angry about with vergess is that the user is... not differentiating enough between those with paraphilia and those with intrusive thoughts when they talk about mental illness, the very thing someone else in this same callout was objecting to which got them slapped with a "receipt"? That this CSA survivor has misinterpreted the medical literature and therefore literally is as bad as their abuser, and anyone who thinks the same as they do is also just as bad? That you think they meaningfully support child molestation in any way? That's really why you're saying this callout is legit? All three people being called out in this ARE mentally ill survivors, and that's a fact, so why exactly are you so terribly eager to tell them their understanding of the situation makes them monsters even if you think they're wrong? Hell, i'm not even sure from context exactly what you mean by pedophilia vs. pedophilic disorders because you haven't explained what you think falls under each of those two categories, and you still don't think maybe you're having a definitional problem?

Additionally I never said, nor do I think, that paraphilia is a mental illness. If you look at my post, you'll see I intentionally did not group it with intrusive thoughts. Who knew? (Me, because I said what I meant.)

I'm not here to debate whether non-offending pedophiles with paraphilia ought to label themselves or whatever, I'm here to talk about why this callout is bullshit and why it's silencing other survivors and why it doesn't prove they "support pedophiles" because they fucking don't.

Why, again, are you accepting a callout in which one of the "receipts" is a bi trans woman csa survivor talking about how she was assaulted by a non-pedophile offender and objecting to others talking as if all molesters are pedophiles, when it's obvious that csa, like other kinds of rape, is about power and not attraction?

Like you can disagree with other survivors without those other survivors being Bad Survivors Who Deserve To Be Shunned, and since all of them literally want child predation to end, perhaps you should think about holding a dialogue with them about it instead of going "welp, another survivor said something I don't think is true and that I think is harmful, better agree to shun them and spread how horrible they are around the internet and also anyone who doesn't shun them is just as bad"

I also have nasty and sometimes violent intrusive thoughts but I guess that's one of those cards I shouldn't play, but you're free to

[herefortheace]

“Ace Discourse” - Things You Should Know About It

1. What is the “ace discourse”?

It’s a name given to posts on here that deal with the ace and aro communities and criticism of them in some form. This is a broad definition, but it’s difficult to narrow it down more. The question of whether or not aces/aros are inherently LGBT+ is often said to be the core issue, but a lot of it is about aces and aros more generally and whether or not we and our communities are horrible. There are, to be frank, many people involved who hate aces and aros. We’ll get to that in a moment - I promise I’m not exaggerating.

Most of us speaking out against the latter really do not like the term “ace discourse”, because it gets used to portray what’s going on as a harmless, entirely legit debate that we should be willing to engage in - when really a huge part of it is plain shitting on aces and aros.

The term “ace discourse” with how it usually gets used also erases aros. 

2. What is the assertion about that there are many people involved who “hate” aces and aros? Do you just mean they don’t think aces/aros are inherently LGBT+?

No. A ton of people in this mess really really despise aces and aros for being ace/aro. Here’s a list with proof regarding the kind of shit I’m talking about. Sexualizing and sex-shaming people in our communities is an issue, as is comparing us to people like Trump and literal white supremacists. There’s declaring our identities invalid, spamming our positivity tags with hate, spreading misinformation about us, telling us to not talk about being ace/aro and painting us as evil. Racism gets thrown at aces and aros of color, ableism is a problem, there’s been misogyny, … I could go on, just check out the link for a general overview with proof.

A good number of ppl have also wished aces and aros dead (and although wishing us all dead is not generally supported, it’s happened rather a lot even if you don’t count anon threats).

3. Aren’t there various -isms and problems in the ace and aro communities that need to be talked about and addressed?

Yes! And this is extremely important. And we need to do a lot better.

However, the way problems in our communities are often treated in “ace discourse” is… well, frequently it’s the opposite of helpful. For one, the ace and aro communities are by no means unique or exceptional in having big problems, and it’s harmful to pretend otherwise. We’re not worse people than others by virtue of being ace/aro, or by virtue of being ace/aro and on tumblr, and people should not distance themselves from their own privilege acting as though they are better than aces/aros with the same privileged identities as them.

Speaking of which, we’re also not privileged groups: we as communities don’t collectively benefit from any -isms. So when, for example, someone talks about “ace tumblr” (an unhelpful term to begin with) being racist, they’re also talking about aces and aros of color. When people start to come across like they’re forgetting or trying to erase the fact that PoC exist within the ace and aro communities… then you have a problem. And a lot of additional racism and people forgetting their own privilege has resulted from it.

I used racism as an example here because I know too personally it’s a big issue in all this, but there’s a more general trend here. Much the same with sexualization and sex-shaming, which are often brought up as problems in our communities - only for people to then far cross the line and treat us like an oppressor group in this regard. But many aces and aros are negatively affected by sexualization and sex-shaming. A big number of aces and aros belong to various oppressed groups specifically targeted by these things.

When people talk about problems in the ace and aro communities as if many many people within our communities aren’t hurt by them, but instead use them to paint us as horrible people overall who need to be put in their place and/or to talk about us as though we’re oppressor groups, then that is dealing those of us hurt by these problems a lot of damage.

4. What’s wrong with the term “ace tumblr”?

It’s literally used to paint aces and aros as an evil ideology-based group rather than a diverse group of actual people who share an orientation and happen to hang out on tumblr. As I said, there’s calling out problems in our communities and then there’s literally dehumanizing and demonizing us - and the term is frequently (almost always) used for the latter.

In addition, like “ace discourse”, the term “ace tumblr” also erases aros, who usually get included in it by people (unless someone suddenly wants to claim that “ace tumblr” hates aros, which has also happened).

5. How is talking badly about “ace tumblr” different from venting about white people or men, etc.?

I already touched upon this, but just to be very clear, because this is incredibly important: aces and aros are not oppressor groups. We can literally belong to any oppressed group. Even if someone wants to deny aces/aros are shoved aside or treated badly by society in any way for being ace/aro, we’d still not be a privileged group (although some ppl have outright claimed we are).

So much goes on in “ace discourse” that is really really damaging and it’s important for people to be aware of it, because it’s alarming how much misinfo and blatant hatred for aces and aros is going around, and how little nuance there frequently is to people talking about problems in our communities. We seriously need to fix this

[herefortheace]

Anyway the anti-ace/aro crowd on this site is toxic as hell and has a huge ableism and racism problem among other things, and instead of acknowledging that shit they would rather talk about how bad aces and aros are, because shitting on people for their definitely non-privileged orientations is fun.

There are many ppl in their crowd who absolutely despise us and some who hate us to an extent that is literally terrifying.

A lot of people have made it their goal to convince everyone aces and aros on this site or in general are uniquely bad and the result is people acting like intersectionality does not apply to us which is why you have a ton of ppl at best treating us like a privileged group unaffected by any and all -isms they “call out” in our communities. Apparently we’re supposed to understand that when they say “ace tumblr” or make ace/aro Trump moodboards or spam our positivity tags with negativity, they only mean the tiny percentage of us who don’t belong to any oppressed groups our ace/aro identities could intersect with… or something.

Don’t fall for this shit, it’s really really alarming how many people do. Please don’t tolerate it either. There is no excuse for hating aces and aros for being ace/aro. It’s absurd to paint us as worse people than others. It’s disgusting to treat us badly.

The moment someone with a scoff refers to us as “ace tumblr” as if aces and aros aren’t an actual diverse groups of people, it’s time to take everything they have to say with a grain of salt

[princekarkat]

a lot of them are heavily pushing the narrative that those of us who have other marginalizations belong to those communities more than we do the ace and aro communities. the idea that our a-spec identities could be important to us is read as absurd or at worst, a betrayal

why else would it confuse them so much that so many nonstraight aces and aros are pushing back? they never expected that we might prioritize our involvement in the a-spec communities enough to protect them

[blackfoxx-deactivated20211115]

The white male style of debate is to antagonize you until you snap. Then they win by default, because they make up their own rules in which being upset automatically invalidates your argument. The key is also to argue about things that they have no stake and experience in, so they dont snap first. Of course in the event that they do snap first, its of course passion, not anger…

White people are like little kids who make up new rules and obnoxious powers to keep themselves from losing….

At the end of it all, they are happy that you are so civil and can debate things rationally and clearly without getting upset. Everyone shakes hands and thanks everyone for being able to discuss “conflicting” viewpoints. Because after all everyone needs to hear the opposing side to truly be sophisticated. Even if you’ve heard that side all your life and it completely devalues you as a human being.

What i hear is that the mark of civilization to white people is being dehumanized and taking it like a champ. 

They also have little to no concept of power dynamics in these ‘sophisticated” discussions.

[getoutoftherobotxaviii]

Why I stopped indulging people who followed this argumentative “format”

[enterheavenalive]

This is so real and applicable to every dinner party I’ve ever been to

[eviltessmacher]

This is a particularly aggressive form of Sealioning.

Sealioning is the name given to a specific, pervasive form of aggressive and willfully intentional cluelessness, that masquerades as a sincere desire to understand.

 A Sealion is someone who, when confronted with a fact that they don’t care to acknowledge, say, the persistence of systemic racism in America, will ask endlessly for “proof” and insist that it is the other person’s job to stop everything they are doing and address the issue to their satisfaction.

The purpose of Sealioning is never to actually learn or become more informed. The purpose is to interrogate. Much like actual interrogators, Sealions bombard their target with question after question, digging and digging until the target either says something stupid or is so pissed off that they react in the extreme. The other major reason why people hate Sealioning is because responding to it is a complete waste of time.

It’s an insidious trap. Responding to questions asked reasonably is, of course, a natural thing for people to do. I like to do it myself; educating others is generally pretty entertaining, especially if they are receptive to learning. Dismissing those questions can appear condescending or rude, especially if you actually are condescending or rude.

Of course, these questions are not asked because the person asking them genuinely wants to know the answer. If they did, they would do their own digging based on your statements, and only ask for obscure or difficult-to-discover information. This is the “debate principle”. It is best explained thusly: When you go to a debate, you educate yourself on the topics at hand, and only request evidence when a claim is either quite outlandish or unflinchingly obscure.

No, these questions are asked to make a responder waste their time. It works, too; I’ve responded to Sealions before, answering all their questions and claims for evidence, only to be greeted by even more willful ignorance. It’s a way to force people into responding to questions phrased neutrally but asked in bad faith.

The name “Sealioning” comes from a most splendid webcomic, “Wondermark”, by David Malki.  

It can be found here: http://knowyourmeme.com/photos/873260-sea-lioning

Sealions are just “asking nicely” but they are asking questions that have been asked and answered fully many times, and are unwilling to so much as open a new tab to look up the answer, nor will they recognize the validity of your sources, your experience or expertise no matter what you do. It is impossible to satisfy a Sealion.

Make no mistake.

Sealioning is a specific form of harassment. You may not explain their inquiry has already been address. You may not cite a source. You may not refer to a previous answer. You definitely may not ever point them to a link. You must spend all your time and energy responding as much as you can to every little details of every innocent, polite little question they ask. Sealioning isn’t a sincere attempt at anything. It’s a calculated technique to grind an opponent down.

[digitaldiscipline]

If any of my followers feel like you’re being sealioned, I can play elephant seal and help destroy them.

[mightyviper]

Not only is this a thing, it’s actually something various hard right groups are teaching their members to do. It’s essentially just never backing down no matter what, never admitting someone else is correct, and always try to force the argument onto the path you want to go down. So I’ve found the best way to combat it is:

A) Call them out on their inability to admit they were wrong. This sounds pretty simple, but it’s very easy to get dragged into whatever they say next instead of just pointing out that you’ve proven their first point is bullshit yet they’re still yakking on.

B) They try to box you into a corner? Box them back. If they won’t accept a link, laugh at them for failing to understand it/read it. Call them out for trying to veer the conversation in another direction without yielding the point. Specifically state that you see their cheap tactics and find them weak and a sign of a poor debater.

C) Never let them move onto the next question. Demand they answer yours instead. Why should they get to set the terms of the debate? Why is it always them who deserves explanations?

D) Suggest that they’re arguing in bad faith. That they don’t really want an answer. And if they say no way? Then point out that someone arguing in good faith would do all the things they refuse to. They’d read links and evidence. They’d agree on at least *something*. And failing that, they’d walk away. Good faith arguers will reach a certain point and then just say agree to disagree. But these guys? Won’t. They will not leave it alone no matter what. That’s the hallmark of a sealion trained to demoralise us.

And when they indirectly admit that, you call them out on it.

Then you don’t leave it alone. Hound that fucking sealion until he honks for mercy.

[swankivy]

Ace/Aro education scribble PSA

[curvyblubird]

if someone could caption this myself and many others would rly appreciate it!!!

[swankivy]

OK!

Frame 1: Handwritten in black: “Hey, PSA!”

Frame 2: Handwritten in black: “Don’t be arophobic when supporting asexuality!“

Frame 3: Handwritten in green: “DO THIS!” Stick figure character with clasped hands says, “I’m asexual and panromantic, so I feel romantic attraction, but not sexual attraction!“

Frame 4: Handwritten in red: “NOT THIS!” Stick figure character with crossed arms says, “I’m asexual but I still want a partner just like anyone else! We still date and fall in love like normal people!“

Frame 5: Handwritten in black: “Don’t be acephobic when supporting aromanticism!“

Frame 6: Handwritten in green: “DO THIS!” Stick figure character with hands in the air says, “I find people sexy sometimes, but I’m not attracted romantically to anyone!“

Frame 7: Handwritten in red: “NOT THIS!” Stick figure character with hands spread and toothy smile says, “I don’t really do relationships, but of course I still have normal urges. It’s human nature!”

Frame 8: Handwritten in purple: “Sometimes, in asexual & aromantic communities, we throw each other under the bus while trying to explain ourselves.“

Frame 9: Handwritten in pink: “Usually we don’t mean to, but let’s try hard to avoid ‘education’ that relies on casting other groups in a negative light or erasing them altogether.“

Frame 10: Handwritten in black next to a happy stick figure character: “Love, your friendly neighborhood ace/aro“

[lesbianpeachs]

*pounds fists against the table and chants* make more aro inclusive stuff! Remember aromantic people!

[threebigreceipts]

Part 1.

To the Anti Community and SGA/AroAce Discoursers:

This is a call out for intersex-ionality / vergess

Supporter of DDLG (and subsets), MAPs (pedophiles), harmful coping mechanisms, public kink, and harassment* (including but not limited to taking over a post and refusing to delete additions when asked, ganging up and attacking a minor, and much, much more.)

# Rape # Abuse # CSA # Pedophilia # CSA # Kink # Ableism

Keep reading

[threebigreceipts]

Update on: 11/1/16 Someone name dropped me and pointed out this call out post and a shit-storm ensued.

Screencaps are of intersex-ionality’s responses to the call out.

Keep reading

[threebigreceipts]

Update on: Theangrybi and Wetwareproblem

These two blogs are very close to intersex-ionality and were two of the most dismissive/manipulative (in the case of Theangrybi) and violently victim blaming (in the case of Wetwareproblem) people on the original callout thread.

Keep reading

[threebigreceipts]

Update on: 1/ 4 /17 Ey shot emself in the foot, making a post defending pedophilia.

Keep reading

[ihateyoufightme]

*long-ass sigh*

once again, at least some of these “receipts” (i haven’t read all of them, not in a great place to) don’t say what they claim, and apparently OP doesn’t think people will check

also bonus points for calling people with BPD manipulative

can this, like, fucking stop? i’m so fucking done with CSA survivors being called pedophiles in an attempt to smear and trigger them when they attempt to talk about their own experiences and what current medical literature actually says about pedophilia

i am seriously just going to quit this entire blog if i keep seeing these. actually read the damn receipts before you reblog

[todothetalking]

Hi. All these receipts say is that this person supports pedophiles, which is gross, and people defended them. Not that they’re a fucking pedophile. And all of the sources back up that claim.

They literally made a post calling pedophiles mentally ill victims. Like.

Bonus points: I have PDNOS. I’m a CSA survivor. Don’t try to pull those cards on me what the fuck.

-Red

[ihateyoufightme]

No, they made a post talking about how people with unwanted intrusive thoughts are mentally ill, and that this shit splashes onto them because most people include them when they say “pedophiles” despite that most with intrusive thoughts are survivors. It’s called context.

I don’t have cards to play. You maybe want to tell me why you think there’s no difference between child molesters, people with a paraphilia, and people with intrusive thoughts, and why the latter group deserves to be lumped in with the first two? You want to explain why saying most child molesters are not pedophiles is included as a receipt, despite that being true, and why a survivor speaking out against the ignoring of non-pedophile offenders in these discussions is also a receipt?

[wetwareproblem]

People aren’t monsters, no matter how bad or unforgivable the things they do are. They are humans, acting on entirely human motivations. If we want to stop bad things from happening, then as a society we have to understand and address those motivations.

If you actively fight against recognizing human villains as human, if you claim that anyone who fails to call them “monster” is on their side, you are effectively preventing anyone from solving the problem. You are making sure that more “monsters” spawn, because the factors that create them will continue. The root of evil is never “they’re monsters,” and no good is done by answering the question “Why did they do it?” as though it were.

You also open yourself up to any number of other evils, because as long as you don’t do The Things that separate people from monsters, you can rest assured that you’re a good person. Conveniently, The Things will never be easy or tempting for you personally; your morality will never be any challenge or impediment to doing exactly as you feel. This should be a warning sign - a clue that your morality is a failure. But it won’t be, because fighting monsters feels good. Righteous. Intoxicating.

This isn’t to say you have to try to sympathize with people who hurt you. But you’ve got to recognize the difference between sympathy and understanding. You need to stop accusing those who seek understanding of expressing sympathy.

If we want a world with less evil in it, we cannot divide humanity into “good people” and “monsters.” That’s not how evil works.

[threebigreceipts]

Part 1.

To the Anti Community and SGA/AroAce Discoursers:

This is a call out for intersex-ionality / vergess

Supporter of DDLG (and subsets), MAPs (pedophiles), harmful coping mechanisms, public kink, and harassment* (including but not limited to taking over a post and refusing to delete additions when asked, ganging up and attacking a minor, and much, much more.)

# Rape # Abuse # CSA # Pedophilia # CSA # Kink # Ableism

Keep reading

[threebigreceipts]

Update on: 11/1/16 Someone name dropped me and pointed out this call out post and a shit-storm ensued.

Screencaps are of intersex-ionality’s responses to the call out.

Keep reading

[threebigreceipts]

Update on: Theangrybi and Wetwareproblem

These two blogs are very close to intersex-ionality and were two of the most dismissive/manipulative (in the case of Theangrybi) and violently victim blaming (in the case of Wetwareproblem) people on the original callout thread.

Keep reading

[threebigreceipts]

Update on: 1/ 4 /17 Ey shot emself in the foot, making a post defending pedophilia.

Keep reading

[ihateyoufightme]

*long-ass sigh*

once again, at least some of these “receipts” (i haven’t read all of them, not in a great place to) don’t say what they claim, and apparently OP doesn’t think people will check

also bonus points for calling people with BPD manipulative

can this, like, fucking stop? i’m so fucking done with CSA survivors being called pedophiles in an attempt to smear and trigger them when they attempt to talk about their own experiences and what current medical literature actually says about pedophilia

i am seriously just going to quit this entire blog if i keep seeing these. actually read the damn receipts before you reblog

[a-polite-melody]

A lot of the time when people bring up that there are very few cisgender het-attracted aspecs, and that, by-and-large, everyone you deal with in the discourse is LGBT+ by not only inclusionist, but also exclusionist standards you’ll get someone asking something along the lines of:

“Why do you care so much that cishet aspecs be considered LGBT then?” (Though often it’s a lot more vitriolic than that, and includes calling inclusionists “cishet sympathizers” or something along those lines, but I digress.)

What people who ask this fail to realize is that the reason cishet aspecs came up so much is because much of the discourse, when there was actually discussion to be found, was about whether asexuality and aromanticism are LGBT+ orientations *in their own right*.

Discussions on that topic, about whether aspec identities are LGBT+ *in their own right* reaches far beyond whether or not cisgender het-attracted aspecs are allowed into LGBT+ spaces (though of course that is one part of the much larger discussion).

Two of these other points of discussion that I remember include:

- Should LGBT+ spaces provide materials and information about, have discussions about, have spaces for, etc., specifically asexuality and aromanticism?

- Should LGBT+ hotlines and other services that cater to at risk/in danger LGBT+ people receive training and education about asexuality and aromanticism?

(I was a little late to the discourse, pretty much right on the cusp of it turning completely to complete chaos and actual discussion coming to a halt, so feel free to add on if you know of more.)

And, of course, these topics are relevant to all aspecs. Not just the “cishet” ones.

That did bring up the topic of whether or not, then, if we were to consider asexuality and aromanticism as being LGBT+ orientations, would that allow people whose only LGBT+ identity is aromantic or asexual be part of the community? Or in other words, would “cishet” aspecs be part of the community?

And that became the focus of the people who didn’t think that aspec identities are LGBT+ in their own right. That became their one argument. It was the most black and white argument they could take up. It was the easiest way to paint people who disagreed with them as pandering to cishets and traitors to their own community, or as being cishets or cishets in disguise themselves.

This is one of the things we mean when we say that the discourse isn’t about cishets. It was about asexuality and aromanticism and whether or not they were LGBT+ *in their own right*. It became about cishets. (And now it’s straight back around to belittling, harassing, and being all-round horrible to aspecs indiscriminately, but I digress, again.)

This is also what we mean about exclusionists never intending this to be a discussion. We had discussions. But they latched into one argument they could use and twist to paint their opponents in the worst possible light.

[ace-angel]

can’t get over how aphobes will swear up and down that straight aces are straight, fully straight, completely straight-

but like, gay/bi aces really aren’t as oppressed as real gays, and headcanons for us aren’t real lgbt rep, and we need to stop talking about ace issues and let real gay people be the center of the community.

no matter how many times you tell me that “gay aces are gay so straight aces are straight!” i really don’t think you believe that first point

[ihateyoufightme]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[herefortheace]

omg white exclusionists “calling out racism” in the ace and aro communities are the most annoying though like almost all of them I see speaking about racism will literally pretend they’re less racist than other white ppl, bc those white ppl are ace/aro/part of the ace and aro communities?? And they frequently get really smug about it?? And try to use racism in our communities against aces and aros of color?? As if being ace/aro grants or increases white privilege

Like yeah have fun pointing at racism in other communities than ur own and using it for your own ends that must be really hard so noble of you

[tsu-anti]

News flash whiteties you don’t get to have an opinion on racism in the aro ace community. You don’t get to have an opinion on issues of race at all because it is not you’re fucking place to do so.

You are in a position of privilege. You are an oppressor you do not get to act like you are in a position of moral superiority over other white people about issues that have nothing to do with race and you definitely don’t get to use the sexualization or desexualization of people of color in your arguments.

Shut Your Fucking Mouths

[diskhorsedudes]

And yall yt’s don’t get to tokenize issues poc face to try and invalidate what inclusionists are fighting for because that makes it really obvious that you only care about racism/poc in general when it’s convenient for you! So white exclusionists need to shut the fuck up and stay in your lane!