[incorrectgalvania]

Everyone say thank you to @sunflowersloth for creating a wonderful world and enabling your friends whims to cause chaos

Current party:

Atelisia, human, ranger (currently away doing personal plot)

Deimedis/Hemlock, elf, cleric

Evanara, air genasi, ranger

Foxglove, tiefling, wizard

Maedi, half elf, bard

Vonia, goliath, barbarian

Some Important NPCs:

Athynara the wolf, Atelisia’s ranger companion (currently with Atelisia)

Beck, shop owner, dating Dante

Dante, shop owner, dating Beck

Lucien, important noble, friends with Dante and Beck

Muddy the rat, Vonia’s pet rat

[thydungeongal]

I think an important part of the "D&D is easy to learn" argument is that a lot of those people don't actually know how to play D&D. They know they need to roll a d20 and add some numbers and sometimes they need to roll another type of die for damage. A part of it is the culture of basically fucking around and letting the GM sort it out. Players don't actually feel the need to learn the rules.

Now I don't think the above actually counts as knowing the rules. D&D is a relatively crunchy game that actually rewards system mastery and actually learning how to play D&D well, as in to make mechanically informed tactical decisions and utilizing the mechanics to your advantage, is actually a skill that needs to be learned and cultivated. None of that is to say that you need to be a perfectly tuned CharOp machine to know how to play D&D. But to actually start to make the sorts of decisions D&D as a game rewards you kind of need to know the rules.

And like, a lot of people don't seem to know the rules. They know how to play D&D in the most abstract sense of knowing that they need to say things and sometimes the person scowling at them from behind the screen will ask them to roll a die. But that's hardly engaging with the mechanics of the game, like the actual game part.

And to paraphrase @prokopetz this also contributes to the impression that other games are hard to learn: because a lot of other games don't have the same culture of play of D&D so like instead of letting new players coast by with a shallow understanding of the rules and letting the GM do all the work, they ask players to start making mechanically informed decisions right away. Sure, it can suck for onboarding, but learning from your mistakes can often be a great way to learn.

[a-wa-c]

I think this also hurts group dynamics as well.

When you have people that have actually done some reading on the rules vs. people that just coast and foist the majority of the game onto the GM, it makes it appear like the more knowledgeable players are sweaty power-gamers or rules-laywers.

Best example I've got with asking players to make informed decisions was when I ran the Wilderfeast Quick Start. The GM has the info about what ingredients can be gathered in any of the regions, but the party then has to cook it. They know what the ingredient does and just have to make the decision on how they want to combine their ingredients as a party.

[thydungeongal]

#i just wanna play a silly game#i feel like. gatekept. while reading this#i don’t have the drive to read a several hundred pg game manual i just wanna play a game w my friends#like. it’s a game. play it how u want#jeeze

My point is not to say that people who don't want to learn the rules shouldn't play, only that people who don't actually know the rules aren't necessarily engaging with the game to its fullest, especially in the case of a relatively rules-heavy game like D&D, and that as the previous poster mentioned it can actually result in a bad rules dynamic where the DM needs to do more work due to player unwillingness to learn the rules as well as casting players who actually know the rules and can engage with them in unfavorable light. All of these are negative elements of the culture of play surrounding.

Like, there isn't anything meaningfully gatekeepy about saying "players who don't know the rules of the game aren't as good at playing the game as the people who know the rules of the game." Because playing games is a skill that can be cultivated and knowledge of the rules is an important part of that skill.

And respectfully, if the idea of learning the rules of D&D seems like an insurmountable task, you don't have to learn them, but you might actually gain something out of actually making an effort because it can make engaging with the game more rewarding for you. Or if the idea of learning the rules of a game that has hundreds of pages is an insurmountable obstacle, there are lots of games with much more modest page counts! D&D is actually relatively heavy as far as RPGs go but it's not the only RPG, and you can get rewarding mechanical engagement combined with cool stories for a much smaller time investment.

[tenleaguesbeneath]

Pointing out that, if you're playing a game with a several-hundred-page rulebook and haven't even made the effort to read the parts of it relevant to your character, then you're pushing a lot of cognitive load onto your friends, isn't gatekeeping. Nobody's kicking you out of your group for it.

[mantis-lizbian]

i also think that the OP is kind of more about the people who bite back against people going "hey, maybe try something other than D&D" with "but those games are too crunchy/hard to learn" when they don't even really know the actual rules of D&D. i mean, i've had people like this push back against learning PbtA games.

i really hope this was just an unusual case, but i've even had that exist response from one of the local DMs where i live, when i invited him to be a player in a game of Masks i was starting up.

[thydungeongal]

Oh yeah, that was definitely the original context. And it's really funny to hear "learning another game is hard" as a reason for not engaging in game beyond D&D when clearly people are not learning D&D either if they consider the act of reading the rules beyond the pale.

[inspectorballs]

The folks this post is about are the reason you get dudes on Reddit posting about prepping to DM games for 60+ hours a week and still feeling inadequate.

At this point, it’s a fun game for *almost* everyone at the table. And nobody wants to take on the role that has you showing up to game night with a wagon full of paper, an external hard drive, and a heart condition due to anxiety.

Be kind to your GM. Learn bits of the rules and help out :)

[prokopetz]

Quite so. If you just want to fool around and occasionally roll some shiny math rocks, that's a perfectly cromulent aspiration, and there are plenty of games that will give you exactly that – but if you just want to fool around and occasionally roll some shiny math rocks while simultaneously insisting upon using a rules-heavy system whose rules you refuse to learn, what you're doing in practice is making the GM do all the work of playing your character for you. It isn't gatekeeping to point this out; it's simply a fact. To be sure, there are a few GMs who are receptive to that sort of thing – it's often termed "black box" play in the hobby's jargon, likening the rules to a box the players can't see inside – but most GMs merely tolerate having all the work of making your character happen dumped on them for the sake of avoiding drama. It can be worthwhile to think carefully about whether this is something you're really okay with doing to someone you call a friend.

Like, there's this stereotype of the "play literally any other game" crowd as a bunch of arty snobs who want to force everybody to play semi-freeform Jungian psychodramas about giant telepathic bugs or what-have-you, but in my experience, the greater part of them are folks who've been GMing Dungeons & Dragons for years, and spent that time single-handedly doing all the work of making the game happen, and all they really want is for their group to pick a game whose baked-in expectations regarding mechanical engagement are compatible with the level of engagement they're actually willing to put forth!

[incorrectgalvania]

Vonia: this sucks so bad i need to [remembers suicide jokes only worsen her mental health] put on the best talent show this towns ever seen

[incorrectgalvania]

Maedi when Atelisia leaves: This is gonna ruin the tour.

Hemlock: What tour?

Maedi: The world tour.

[incorrectgalvania]

Deimedis: You know what they say: cults. They exist

[incorrectgalvania]

Deimedis: There’s nothing that duct tape and willpower can’t fix… Deimedis: Unfortunately we only have masking tape and spite

[incorrectgalvania]

Maedi: I’m not extra, I’m just correct

[incorrectgalvania]

Evanara: You think I can read? That's nice of you

[incorrectgalvania]

Maedi: Stop being so shy Evanara: ... Evanara: You just asked me not to have a personality

[incorrectgalvania]

Deimedis: Who owns your soul?

Foxglove: That's for everyone else to figure out once I die

[incorrectgalvania]

Maedi: I’m not saying my friends are crazy, but I did watch Vonia have a 4 hour fight with her rat about whether a flea that bit a werewolf would become a wereflea.

[incorrectgalvania]

Foxglove: Just found out my entire personality is a trauma response.

[incorrectgalvania]

Evanara: I’m not “showing signs of depression.” I’m hiding them really well actually. Everyone thinks I’m normal. At least I’m pretty sure.

[incorrectgalvania]

Maedi: I know a place

Hemlock: This is a therapist’s office.

Maedi: Your point?

[incorrectgalvania]

Maedi: Guess what?

Evanara: What?

Maedi: No you have to guess.

Evanara: Did you learn a new song?

Mardi: Nope.

Evanara: Is there an interesting tavern in town?

Maedi: Nope.

Evanara: What is it, then?

Maedi: Vonia’s missing!

Evanara: WHY WOULD YOU MAKE ME GUESS THAT??????

[incorrectgalvania]

Vonia: Deimedis told me Santa wasn't real. Well joke's on her because I'm at the mall right now and guess who's here?

[incorrectgalvania]

Maedi: ✨Slay✨

Vonia, drawing her great axe: Okay.

Maedi: No wait-