Stop erasing Lace's entire character/ character arc just to make her revolve around Hornet.
It's legit so sad to me how Lace's character has been almost completely eclipsed by this wildly different alternate version of her that's been contrived for the sake of shipping.
Like, I made a post earlier complaining about the way The Crackship that Shall Not Be Named distorts Hornet's character.
But ultimately, Hornet is the main character, and had a prominent role in in the 1st game too.
Her character isn't going to be eclipsed or drowned out by any one ship.
Sure, there's other common mischaracterizations of Hornet regardless of or independent of any ship (like the tendency to "girlfailure-ify" a rare competent experienced older woman protagonist, or a tendency to default her to a "nagging older sister caretaker" role with regards to the Knight somehow despite explicitly being the youngest sibling - after she stopped wanting to kill the Knight, the place where they end up is that she admires their strength & determination. Like her last few dialogues with them are in the direction of "wow you're so brave" not "OMG baby"), but it falls under the normal rate/probability of "novice writer errors" - ppl simply don't get good until they practice & ff is how a lot of ppl get their first practice in writing so, it's better if they write imperfectly than not at all.
It's not hard to find high quality content of her written by extremly skilled ppl who love her character & pay attention to every detail.
Meanwhile it's pretty hard to find ANY non-ship/gen content of Lace (really indicative of how little they really care about her character imho)
What I said about the Crackship Fans twisting everything said on screen to mean the opposite doesn't just apply to her age.
Often stuff like this is justified by saying that you're not supposed to take everything any chracter says as face value. Thing is, tho, when a character is meant to be lying or wrong, this has to be communicated in the text. Even if something is never explicitly stated, there is text or imagery you can point to to underline that point.
But proponets of the crackship usually just state how something "could" be seen a certain way, & that because of this, that's the only way it can be seen, without pointing at proof or even bothering about internal logical consistency
You "could" see anything as anything. lots of ppl saw LotR as being about WWII even though Tolkien despised political allegory. We have old letters of Kafka being frustrated that ppl read his work in the light of nationalism (fashionable then just as shipping is now) when that's just not what he was writing about. (Conversely, if you didn't get that Animal Farm is an allegory/about politics, you haven't understood it)
A while ago I saw a post referring to this type of analysis "pseudohumanities" analogous to pseudoscience. It has the appearance of humanities, they might talk of "deep themes" or even accuse you of "lacking media literacy" but they can't actually seem to point to quotes or writing choices that would support their view.
The end result is that Lace's entire characterization gets excised to revolve exclusively around her supposed love interest in a way that would have ppl scandalized if it was done to facilitate a het ship.
Bad writing doesn't stop being bad writing because there's no man involved. (& as a bi/pan person myself I can't help but judge it by the same standard as a I would a romance with dudes involved/ take it no less seriously.)
"She meant to help Hornet from the start/ spare her her on fate of serving GMS"
Actually, she set her free to torment her, & cause some chaos/ spite her mother: "Bring chaos! Bring ruin! Feel pain so pure! Feel freedom false! Let fate's bindings choke you away!"
At that point, she wants to torment Hornet. TC made sure to give her a special animation where she laughs sadistically as she kills you if you lose the fight. Her dialogue is also sadistic, trying to toy with Hornet & position herself as a predator to prey: "poor little morsel" etc. (Notably, it doesn't work at all.)
It's also worth noting that it pretty hard to see that needolin dialogue because most players wouldn't have the needolin by the time they reach the Deep Docks. So it's a special reward you get for being interested in her (& does confirm that it was her who set Hornet loose.)
Some of that certainly reflects Lace's own feelings in a way, feels like her fate is set, like she's trapped etc. But her response to that is NOT solidarity, it's competition.
Solidarity vs competition is one of the main themes of the game downright to the final choice. Do you hurt others as you have been hurt, or do you try to protect others from the same harm? Do you smash the whole system for everyone, or do you simply put yourself at the top?
Hornet herself can go either way depending on her choices;
The ultimate embodyment of "breaking he cycle" is probably Herrah, though her attempt was imperfect due to harsh circumstances beyond her control.
As someone who can be the final boss, Lace is rather a character embodying the opposite thesis, though she's sympathetic because of her awful circumstances & because she just doesn't know any better.
Don't get me wrong: She's very much a tragic victim of that mindset & treated by the narrative as someone you should want to save;
Nonetheless, she's operating on the logic of the bully: If you're miserable, you need to make someone ven more miserable than yourself. It's also the PoV of someone who feels powerless. Jealousy, after all, is frustrated desire.
It's very much the energy of a kid who bullies an unwanted new step sibling or a betrayed wife who lashes out at the affair partner instead of the cheating husband still accepts the existing structure of power as inevitable & lashes out within it.
& like someone in that situation, she hasn't considered the PoV or the feelings of the "other woman" at all, beyond hating her because she's in the way. She doesn't even bother to learn Hornet's same & doesn't pick up/ deduce anything about her throughout
By the 2nd fight, she still hasn't cloaked that Hornet is a Higher Being ("I will not fade!"), nor does she rally have seemed to register that Hornet has absolutely zero intentions of doing tea & crumpets with GMS & decided to kill her (& possibly at her) somewhere between being kidnapped and seeing Haunted Bellhart. At least, she's assumed that Hornet's desires won't matter cause GMS always gets her will.
So it's like being jealous of someone the cheating husband is sexually harassing. Or indeed of your boundary-stomping mother kidnapping the child of your older sister who went no contact with her. Though irl when ppl get kidnapped by their grandparents they are usually toddlers. (one might compare to the immortal Abusive Mother in "Mermaid's Scar", if anyone remembers that.)
This does change eventually (in that she comes to realize that GMS is not invincible & turn her anger where it belongs), but it does so over the course of the story. At the start, it hasn't happend yet.
Lace is a classic dynamic character whose opinion & attitude somewhat elvolve over the course of the story.
As late as the Choral Chambers scene she still shills GMS as a supreme & invincible 'fathomless being'
This too has the subtext/implication that Lace sees her as a scary monster instead of having any sort of close mother/daughter relationship, but the context in which is happens is Lace bragging that her boss is a powerful monster who'd "snuff out all hope" if Hornet even glanced at her.
The notion that Hornet genuinely thinks she can stand against GMS is totally new to her, to the point that she explains it away as ignorance or optimism at first.
"She was testing Hornet"
Similar to the 1st argument this is framing her motivation in the 2nd fight as wanting Hornet to defeat GMS & fighting her only to test if she's tough enough to do it.
Except... what does the game actually tell us about her motivations?
On the simplest level, she tells us that she dosn't think Hornet is worthy of an audience with GMS; Before she says that "You need grace to stand before the divine", & after you beat her she tells you that you've "earned your audience".
On an emotional level, however, it's all about her inferiority feelings and wanting her mother's attention:
Why her... Mother... See me cut! See me serve! A child, too broken... I will not fade! I will not take! See me, your knight... See me, your daughter...
She's still motivated by jealousy ("Why her"), but mostly the desire to get her mother's attention. A very vulnerable, painful desire - wanting to please an abusive parent who doesn't deserve it. I dunno about you but I consider these lines quite a heartwrenching knife-twister.
The whole thing is a shakspearian spiel to get a reaction out of GMS. At this point Lace is already kinda lapsing into self-desctrutiveness ("See me cut!") but she's still nominally loyal to her mother ("See me serve!") even if she's acting out. Indeed, she complains that her loyalty isn't appreciated or doesn't seem to register/ is taken from granted. ("I will not take!")
She wants GMS to see that she had advantages over the Weavers despite her "brokenness" - that she's not a traitor & won't grow old.
The fight itself is what becomes her breaking point - maybe it was the lack of reaction from GMS (whereas a simple 'Garama' finally gives her the last push she needed to brak her seal), maybe it was realizing she coud never compete with Hornet / seeing her supposed inferiority confirmed (especially sinc she thinks she got beaten by a random Weaver mutt, not a friggin Pale Being), or maybe it finally dawned on her that GMS isn't so invincible after all when she saw Hornet giving her a sound beating.
In any case, it probably convinced her that she would never get "seen" no matter what she does.
Still, it's only *now* that she turns against GMS, not at any point before.
It's also worth noting what doesn't change:
a) Her view of herself. She still describes herself as broken, pathetic, sckly... etc. in her abyss monologue.
Like, Hornet treating a fallen enemy with dignity in what she thought to be her last moments is a big moment for Hornet & tells us how she felt about her siblings, but it doesn't actually get through to Lace. She dismisses it as a platitude or as pity that just makes her feel more wretched, probably cause she hasn't experienced compassion before (& also because it's coming from the object of her envy) - Hornet doesn't actually have an influence on her in terms of her actual words & crtainly doesn't attain a special role in Lace's heart as "the one who saw m/treated me well" - this might happen in the future/ builds up to Hornet deciding to save her in the end, but it hasn't happened yet.
Insofar as anything Hornet said had an impact at all, the relevant line would be "even gods can fall", planting the idea that GMS might not be untouchable. (notably Lace didn't have a comeback to that one, she slinks off & lets GMS take over the interaction)
b) Her lack of solidarity.
She might have turned against GMS, but that doesn't mean she feels solidarity with her other victims. This is pretty obvious with how she feels about Pharloom's destruction & how th bugs in it will be "crushed to dust" - she's downright gloating there. Crushing others/ causing destrution probably gives her a feeling that she matters & has power for the first time in her life.
She's meant to parallel the Weavers who also betrayed GMS but also mistreated the peasants just like she did. It's a repeat of history because GMS hasn't changed... or even gotten worse. Because this brings us to point c)
c) Her total nihilism
The difference between Lace & the Weavers is, the Weavers had some hope to take over Pharloom themselves or at least to escape. Lace can't do either thing, & probably thinks she'll die no matter who wins.
I don't think this is actually true: GMS was still attached to her at this point & Hornet would never submit to being her companion, so the only way she wins is if she binds/consumes Hornet. (though I doubt their relationship would have improved, & with access to her full power or even more than she used to have courtesy of binding Hornet, she might've discarded Lace in favor of a 'new & improved model') Meanwhile Hornet had shown that she's sympathetic to Lace & would probably not just let her die if she wins.
The backstab isn't a positive claiming of independence, but a self-destructive lashing out born of hopelessness.
It's an "If I can't have love I want power" thing. & it's still power of someone who feels powerless lashing out, not true empowerment. She's destroying herself to spite GMS/ make her suffer. Which she deserves! but, this is not a positive thing for Lace to be fighting off somone who's come to save her or burn herself up just to punish someone else. She's doing this precisely because she sees no hope for herself & believes herself worthless.
Incidentally, one of the dumbest Crackship arguments I've seen recently is " child would never say self-hating phrases like that" which just, like... so Child Psychiatrists don't exist then? That isn't a whole profession to help depressed children? There is no stereotype about adolescents being angsty either? There isn't a bajillion parenting books about how to make sure your kids have good self-esteem?
Kinda on the same level as "she can't be a child cause she's shown to not be a subservient puppet" ... because its ok to treat actual minor children like puppets or what?
Misses the point of what's actually very honest brilliantly written commentary on the violence & possessiveness in the parent-child relationship, ugh. My bitterness about the bastardization is really a result of how much I love the brillance of the actual story. I had a control freak parent.
For the same reason I'm irked by the erasure of the Weavers as estranged children that broke off contact/disowned their parents.
If we weren't supposed to see them as GMS' (estranged!) children (at least socialy & narratively - though they are said to share "her nature") you'd think Hornet would correct Mask Maker when he calls her GMS's "kin" and refers to her as the Weaver's "mother".
I'd like to stress that I don't at all mean this in a "she's still their mother!" (& theefore they owe her something / she must be assumed to have good intentions) kinda way, fuck that. I haven't had a relationship with my sperm donor in 15 years. That doesn't make me not related to my siblings tho, or not having to reckon with how he affected me or be careful I don't repeat his shitty behaviors.
Anyway, back to Lace.
"She backstabbed GMS to save Hornet"
Well. Here's how Lace herself describes what she did: "I've won!"
& maybe it's a victory over Hornet, too, cause she didn't get what she wanted, either (Lace visually ends up in the spot where Hornet would be in ending B - there might be a bit of a"If I can't have you nobody can" angle)
But it's not really about Hornet. Again she doesn't even care what Hornet's name is, she cares about Hornet only as an extension of her issues with her mother. She was gonna kill her for her mother's attention, and now she's gonna let her live for her mother's attention.
She doesn't care if she lives or dies indeed she invites her gleefully to follow them down and "let oblivion swallow us all" (if they wanted to hint that she cares about Hornet, they might've had her tell her not to do it - like, even in some tsundere ish way. )
It's about spiting GMS & making her suffer, whose pitiful state Lace gloats about in great detail.
She wanted to deny her victory ("I've denied my mother your silken strength.") - was probably gonna absorb/bind Hornet to escape the trap. We don't know if she could've pulled it off in time,
I do think it would've been at best, a mutual kill. (& that the Snails, or at least Caretaker and Bell Hermit, were maybe even hoping for that. )
But crucially, it's still about being seen/ getting her attention, it's just negative attention now because she's given up on the positive sort:
"She can thrash, and waste, and know her pathetic, broken child caused the mortal wound"
Basically, GMS can't ignore a blade through her chest.
(Also, you'd think that if being a child was just a pretense she did for GMS' sake she would drop it now after betraying her / feeling she has the upper hand now, & say something like 'now she'll be screwed cause she failed to realize I had grown up' or something.)
It's a common trap that many fall into after getting fed up with an abusive parent: Trying to get even. But that just keeps you stuck with them instead of going away & living your own life.
Don't get me wrong tho, I really feel her. It's hard to accept the fucking injustice will never be corrected & that you just can't make a person see you, not even with violence. It doesn't help that GMS does exactly what many egocentric parents do in such situation & plays the unapprciated sacrificial martyr. That's just one more invalidation, how dare they act like they care when they never did when it mattered & disregarded you as a person so much?
But the "getting even" trap is still a trap that keeps you stuck in the figurative (or in this case quite literal) black tar pit of drama & just lads you to dirty your own hands.
It's a bit like in FFVII where the overarching villain is the Shrinra Copany and it's exploitative practices or like corporate greed in general, but the final boss is Sephiroth, someone who has a sad tragic story & was driven to madness & villainy by their irresponsible actions. The same could be said about Priscilla in Claymore, for example - the baddies are the Organization, but Priscilla is a product/embodymnt of the shitty world they created.
Characters like Sephiroth & Priscilla (or Franknstein's Monster/ Tha Phantom of the Opera, for example) are the final bosses because they're a product of their shitty world and an embodiment of what it does to people. They have to be fought/stopped, but at the same time, it's deeply sad & tragic that things got that way, that they were made into villains by their awful experiences & the irresponsible authorities
In the Act 3 route Lace becomes that sort of Tragic Villain (though with the twist that we can actually save her/ prevent the tragedy from fully unfolding) - the overaching baddy is GMS, but Lace is a consequence of her villainy that came back to bite her... but also everyone else.
Unlike Sephiroth Lace isn't even causing the apocalypse of her own power, it's ultimately very much GMS' doing. That power fantasy of the downtrodden getting to lash out & vent at society isn't realized.
Lace might do some temporary gloating but she doesn't really stop feeling in a powerless position. She can only have that power by destroying herself & thereby exerting power over GMS. She's the one pulling that landmass down into the ocean.
Which is to say: Lace's mindset in the end is not one where she's freed herself in any meaningful way but one where she's hit her braking point, subcumbed to nihilism & despair, and is lashing out as a result.
She's literally but also figuratively "lost in the darkness"
Her getting retrieved in the end opens up the possibility for her to experience freedom & proper self-esteem, but she isn't there yet, not while she thinks her only way of feeling like she matters is to destroy herself & a bunch of innocents for the sake of revenge.
Again, she ends up actively fighting off someone who's come to retrieve her, states she believes its too late for her etc.
She markedly doesn't just stand aside & let Hornet finish the job on GMS, indeed she actively gets in the way of that. That's not the action of someone who is liberated, at least, not yet.
The "Parallel" Argument
A lot of the above gets justified by claiming that honet and Lace are supposed to be "parallels"
This isn't even entirely wrong, but lacks nuance.
First, parallels can & often DO happen between characters of different generations, especially Mentors & Students. ITeam 7 and the Sannin Deku & All Might... (I bring this up because a reasoning Ive heard multiple times "they should be the same age/maturity because parallel")
They are quite simply written/portrayed as having a generational gap (the most obvious sign of this being how Hornet adresses her) & this gos well with the general juxtaposition of Pharloom being in a state where the apocalyptic event can still be averted. (& the child sacrifice still avoided)
Second is that while it's partially a parallel, it's also a contrast.
Lace is an antagonist. Someone who opposses Hornet. It's not unusual for the hero & the villains to have parallels, but it's usually combined with contrasts as well. Maybe the villain is who the hero could have been if they'd made different choice, gone down a different path, or if some important thing relevant to the story's themes was different.
The similarities exist as a scaffold to examine what made the hero and hero & the villain a villain.
In the contrast of Hornet & GMS (the other possible final boss & more overarching villain) it's down to attitude: Both are 'Pale Beasts', predatory creatures born with exceptional power & status, both are proud, tenacious and natural top-dogs, but while Hornet saw her power as something that bestows great responsibility & didn't like how it set her apart from others, GMS took it as licence/entitlement to do whatever she wants & viewed others as beneath her.
Lace meanwhile is someone who feels very powerless & inferior & is jealous of Hornet precisely because of the power & privilege that she got while Lace didn't - though it's worth noting she's not completely at the bottom, neither in the hierarchy nor even in her own family, compared to Phantom and Widow. See the whole "no solidarity" / competing to keep one's spot in the sun motif, which, for Lace is a very desperate life or death thing.
The reason Lace & Hornet are different is first that Hornet's simply older & wiser, and secondly their environments. Hornet had Herrah & Vespa. (& while PK and WL done fucked up, at least that was out of desperation & ignorance, not malice or entitlement, trying to do better with Hornet, though their sins caught up with them eventually & affected her also)
Meanwhile, Lace had no one. (Hence the implication that Hornet eventually rights that injustice by becoming that good role model Lace never had - or at least that she could also become a hero after she's removed from her shitty environment.)
She's maybe like Hornet in some ways, but also her opposite in others.
As far as parallels go:
Youngest child of the local god-monarch
the one to avoid some awful fate thus far / last one left out of hundreds
speedster who uses skill & agility over strength & does so in part to compensate for some perceived weakness (in Hornet's case, that she's a hybrid)
plays some guardian-like role / wants to be useful
princess of dubious status; Hornet's a bastard. Lace might be seen as comparable to someone who isn't considered a proper heir due to a deformity, or just, like, the youngest. Both face off with a more legitimate heir: The Knight of the King's actual wife, Hornet is descendet from one of the ruler's "First children".
is or has been a knight at some point
gets fought twice, once early in the game & once guarding the spot where you can claim the throne
confronts you when you reach the gaudy capital city
intervenes when you fight the baddy on the path to the "good" ending
both theirr musical themes begin with a similar set of arpeggi
was groomed to be a tool to retake Pharloom - Lace was made to help GMS escape her seal/ take back over from the Conductors ('one to wish our waking'), Hornet as clearly considered by some of the Weavers as basically Eva 2.0
was made to feel not good enough/ never fully accepted by the same people who wanted to use her in this way / only loved conditionally as long as she was obedient and a 'Mini-Me' for those people. ("better a child spun frail/mad than none..."/ "From Our Silk... a child born loyal", "prove yourself more Weaver than Wyrm")
got used as a substitute scapegoat of sorts (Lace effectively being "punished" for the Weavers' betrayal by being physically weak so she can't turn traitor, the Weavers taking out their beef with Higher Beings on hybrids like Eva & Hornet.)
Both believe on some level that they're doomed to be monsters just like GMS ('the Holy Mother who'd fashion a daughter as crude and cruel as me', 'these are the only fates my kind allow.')
Usually proponents of The Crackship don't even catch those last few ones cause they're hellbent on ignoring the "fucked up family" subtext even though it's so central to the story, in favor of just making up something from whole cloth that just isn't in there at all.
Hornet had other, more positive influences in her life besides just the Scheming Aunties. (ultimately as a result of Herrah making a deliberate point NOT to pass on the baggage - doing the opposite as GMS as a direct reaction to her, a powerful & touching point that gets lost if you erase their relation) which is why she had other options besides contiuning their path.
Another way you can view it is that maybe Lace is what Hornet could have become if she'd agreed to leave with the other Weavers instead of deciding to stay & fight for her home (both Hallownest and the natives of Deepnest) even if it seemed doomed: They did take back power, (for all that GMS is still hampered by the seal) but it seems that GMS wasn't exactly grateful & became concerned with retrieving her "stronger" offspring as soon as she was back in control of her kingdom, while Lace came to be ignored.
Still, the argument that Lace never had any other path to choose still holds.
Let's not forget the constrats, either, too:
Hornet is described by WL as "strong in mind and body"; Lace is characterized as "fragile" and "mad"/ "manic"
Hornet generally acts stoic & mature, but is also genuinely threatening & confident. Lace acts emotional & volatile, but her confidence is a thin vener hiding deep self-hate, & she's also a lot more bark than bite when facing an oponent who can actually fight back.
While they start out as enemies, Hornet eventually teams up with the Knight; Lace doesn't team up with Hornet but rather becomes the Final Boss. Instad, the role of the key ally you need to win over for the best outcome is Caretaker. Lace does intervene against GMS but it's for her own reasons, not really to help Hornet. While it might've saved her life, it lead to her plan massively going sideways in what must at first have seemed like a worse case scenario to her.
While Hornet underestimates the Knight at first, she quickly comes to realize her error. She also always knows at least some stuff about them that they don't & deduced their backstory for the player's benefit in the fountain scene. Likewise she is able to quickly deduce a lot of information about Lace, but this does not go both ways at all; If anything the dialogue is written to make it glaringly obvious that Lace hasn't realized or deduced the first thing about Hornet. (while various other characters very much do catch onto her true identity) - basically, Hornet is airly perceptive, while Lace is... really not.
Even insofar as she starts out mistaken, misguided or jaded/ made cynical by her situation, Hornet's goal/intention from start to finish is to protect what's left of her home. She considers offing the Knight because she thinks they might be a threat and then works together with them because she comes to think they might be a worthwhile ally. Meanwhile Lace couldn't care less what becomes of any peasants. This is clearly shown as a result of environment, as we're told she had some idea of acting as a protector. But the end rsult is still that she'd basically tyrannize the citadel's remaining mortal occupants. She's working for the bad guy, even if she gradually becomes fed up with her over the course of the story.
So yeah. Having some things in common doesn't mean their roles & motivations are 1:1 copypasted or can be assumed to be the same, & such an assumption should certainly not overrule every single bit of text we're shown of her motivations & reasons ever.
Sigh. I just want some content of Lace where she's actually Lace. (& I'm deeply grateful to the few artists & writers that have supplied it)
She's her own character with her own story that's mostly about her conflict/ falling out/fucked up relationship with her mother.
Hornet's role in it is mostly to be the straw that broke the camel's back;
She has that jealousy that a sister or cousin would have, after always being in the Weavers' shadow. (which would be the same for any Weaver stronger & younger than Widow)
She was used to equate worth with power,(an internalized view from her mother) so she hates hrslf for being "weak" & loses it when she repeatedly fails to dominate, intimidate or best Hornet.
In this Hornet in particular matters because she's experienced enough to to be scared by GMS & strong enough to actually fight her, which introduces the idea that she can be beat. (& hence that Lace might enact revenge on her for being ignored/replaced/jilted/ created as "weak")
That, & of course that she choses to save her at the end (& probably take her in / guide her in the future) which opens the possibility for Lace to have a better life / for them to eventually bond as family despite the toxicity of their last common ancestor, & for Lace to mature/grow up & end up just as capable as being a hero as Hornet is, but that's all in the future.
During the story proper Lace's attitude towards Hornet doesn't really change from hating her & not getting why she cares or keeps trying from her own nihilistic PoV.
The thing is it would be so interesting to read stuff of how things proceed from there & she slowly learns to trust & interact with others in non-bullying ways / how she might blossom if her emotional needs actually get met etc. similar to all those "the Hollow Knight's slow recovery from the war" type fics. - well, not quite the same as she hasn't just ben a victim but partially a perpetrator, interesting in its own way. But that's exactly what tends to be totally erased/ forgotten bland pliant love interest version of her.
