Kirkodile's tears of happiness @kirkodiletears - Tumblr Blog

I actually enjoyed rewatching AOS. But I have to say, the way, Spock and Uhura's relationship is portrayed there feels not only unsatisfying, but actually toxic. I have no idea, how can someone possibly see it as a step forward in portraying female characters. It's totally misogynistic. What do we see? We see, that his universe evolves around his best friend: as we can see in STID, he is obsessed with Kirk. Jim is the only being, that's able to actually not even make Spock feel, but also express his emotions. When his girlfriend's life is threatened, he is cool and calm, explaining to Jim how her sacrifice is "their only logical option". When Jim's about to risk his life to save the entire ship... Spock's reaction is... well... different (to put it mildly). When he bumps into his girlfriend on his way to the engineering, he doesn't even stop to acknowledge that she is alive: just dashing right past her, as if she is an empty space. Not mentioning the reactor scene and what happens next. In Beyond the relationship continues to deteriorate: he breaks up with her and leaves her for making Vulcan babies with someone else. But as soon as his friend "snaps his fingers" and tells him, that he needs him, - he is back: all endangered species baby-making and plans of continuing Ambassador Spock's work on New Vulcan are forgotten immediately. And she supposed to carry on with their relationship after that as if nothing happened? But at the end she nevertheless is smiling and wearing his pendant. We don't know, if they will get back together, but even a possibility of returning to someone, who treated you like that, feels creepy. What kind of message is that? That you got to stick to your partner under any circumstances, no matter how he treats you? Does she have self-respect issues? If, as we continuously observed, Jim is a "number one" person to Spock, then where is Uhura's place in his life? The fact, that he gave her this pendant only underlines the awkwardness of the whole affair: it's like he is trying to compensate for his lack of feelings with a jewelry. And that's super-creepy and wrong. Jewelry can be indeed a lovely gesture, but only if it comes together with the feelings: not instead of them.

thetimetostrikeislater

I’ve never considered their relationship toxic per se, but I agree that the relationship felt very strange, almost too respectful, too complacent almost idealistic.

I always thought that maybe it was Spock’s first serious relationship with someone, and he behaved as he believed one should in a relationship such as theirs. Like filling a acting roll of some kind.

Then comes in Kirk. He’s not filling a perfect roll, he’s not used to perfect relationships with anyone. He’s making a mess of everything, making Spock forget all his lines and ruining the order of what should be. But Kirk’s just living actual life which is messy and not straightforward at all.

hakka84

I’m not the biggest Spock/Uhura fan (I was a rabid hater and warmed up a bit - and very slowly - only after ID), but the analysis feels to me a bit too harsh (and the hatred toward the pair filters through quite loud).

During Into Darkness everything’s too quick to linger on gestures of affection and worry (perhaps the writers read the critics about too much Spock/Uhura during moment of duress in 2009 and toned it down). When they run into each other, it’s likely she was doing something away from the bridge but Spock knew she wasn’t in danger (people aren’t dying, it’s just the ship that’s dying - yeah, the ship and Kirk) so he doesn’t need to stop “acknowledge she’s alive”. And the reason why Spock reacts differently to Uhura’s “sacrifice” and Jim’s is that Uhura on Kronos is doing her job, there’s the risk of getting hurt (we’re talking about unfriendly Klingons), yes, but it’s part of the job; Jim, on the other hand, is walking straight into what Spock foresees is a mortal trap (”the enemy of my enemy”/”the guy of the quote was killed, duh”). And the scene in the reactors chambers is a whole lot matter: Jim is dying, he’s not doing something that could potentially kill him, he’s actually dying. And the movie already established/reminded us that Spock had death experiences (Vulcan, his mother) and was still having difficulties to cope with that even before John’s attack to Starfleet HQ (he explains it when Uhura, on the small ship, comments about Spock not caring to die, referring to the volcano stunt). So Spock was already trying to understand how to accept death, and then he goes and meld: he was sharing their minds, their minds were connected when Pike breathed his last breath, so Spock felt that, how it feels to die. Spock is “compromised” during the whole movie. And then Kirk, that guy who self-proclaimed himself as “Spock’s friend”, he’s dying and Spock can do anything, not even ease Jim’s fear like he might’ve done with Pike. Spock, already compromised, just looses it.

Beyond. In Beyond Spock doesn’t change his mind because of Kirk. You can actually see that he’s doubting his choice (of breaking up with Uhura, for whom he clearly feels genuine love and affection) when, on the Franklin, they are planning to free the crew: Spock is primarily concerned by Uhura’s safety. As far as I can remember, he insists on going himself because he wants to be there to free Uhura. His affection for her is very, very clear. In no part of the movie he’s actually worried for Jim (Bones goads him with the whole “have you told Jim?” “What Jim would do without you?” but they don’t have the time to wonder if Jim’s safe somewhere on the planet), but he does for Uhura.

And about changing his mind... It’s not explicitly said, you don’t hear Spock musing about it like you would read in a novel or in a fanfiction, but it’s all shown in the scene when he opens the holo-photo left by Spock Prime. On that picture he sees an older version of himself standing between what, to Spock Prime, was clearly perceived as family. The emotions that Zachary Quinto conveys with his acting tell it all: Spock understands that, by leaving Starfleet, he would loose that. He’s moved to see Spock, so older than him, still serving in Starfleet with those people. Let’s not forget that the pic is one of the few belongings - if not the only - that Prime brought with him during that supernova mission, which meant the pic must be very important to Prime.

At the start of the movie Spock felt he had to sacrifice himself for a duty he felt he had toward his race since the tragedy of the 2009 movie (that duty that Prime removed from his shoulders - “it is my duty to(:..)”/“yet, you can be at two places at one”). What he experiences during the movie (his near-death experience while stuck with Bones, the crew split, Uhura prisoner, Kirk away from him) unbalances him and he finds himself no more sure about the rightfulness of his choice. The whole “I need you” from Kirk (and Bones’ “what would Jim do without you”) certainly help, but it’s more Spock’s journey, Kirk or Uhura have little to do with his changing his mind about leaving Starfleet. He understands what Prime told him, about doing what’s right: in the photo he sees what Prime meant. Spock’s best destiny is being part of that family.

Last, let’s not forget Spock’s not human, he behaves and thinks in different ways than humans. Uhura knows, Uhura respects and tries to understand that. That’s why it might seem “wrong” from our point of views that she sticks with Spock through his inner turmoils both in Into Darkness and Beyond. It might be a conscious choice from the authors, or happened by sheer luck, but they managed to convey that “oddness” in Spock quite well. Anyway. I don’t call it “toxic” when you stand by the person you love during their psychological turmoils. Uhura knows Spock’s troubled, he’s not an egoistic dickhead: he lost his whole planet, a major chunk of his race, his mother and he feels the pressure to put everything he is and knows to the mission of rebuilding a dying race. That’s not a good head place to be in. Spock’s as closer to a clinically depressed person a Vulcan could be. It would be a dickish move from her part to not stick with him during his psychological ordeal, actually. It’s dickish to leave one loved one (be it parental, friend, romantic love) when they are suffering from psychological illnesses. Spock hasn’t abused her (in that case it’s understandable and quite suggested you just leave that loved one be for your own wellbeing), he’s just making wrong choices out of his devastated and troubled state of mind.

I actually agree with @thetimetostrikeislater observations. If there’s perhaps a flaw in the Spock/Uhura romance is that it’s portrayed too idealistic, as if they felt they had to go great lengths to portray the romance as perfect as they could to “stick it” to the Spirk fans. The go through too many hurdles (both personally and as a couple) and we just get Uhura annoyed who drags in Jim in hope that together (as the two people that are closed to Spock, his two closest friends) they manage to make Spock see he’s self-destructing.

I always thought that maybe it was Spock’s first serious relationship with someone, and he behaved as he believed one should in a relationship such as theirs.

My view is that actually it depends from the other party involved. Uhura is sympathetic, calm, strong and ready to accommodate Spock’s needs - she goes her way to both help and understand Spock. She’s respectful of his differences, of his being Vulcan, he gets annoyed and gets into his face when necessary but always respecting the fact Spock is a Vulcan. She’s the closer a human could be to a Vulcan. Kirk, on the other hand, is very different, he’s very emotional, is uncompromising, he pushes and provokes, he’s always in Spock’s face and takes Spock out of his own comfort zone. That’s the difference between the two relationships. And Spock reacts accordingly. Uhura is safe, Jim not.

And AOS!Spock clearly needs both to evolve.

(that’s why, while being a strict Spirk girl, I also approve a Kirk/Spock/Uhura that works for AOS as Spones does for TOS - threesome that isn’t my cup of tea but you understand what I mean)

kirkodiletears

Ok, let's have a closer look. I previously made many analyses, comparing Spock's reaction to Jim and to Uhura.

"...it’s likely she was doing something away from the bridge but Spock knew she wasn’t in danger (people aren’t dying, it’s just the ship that’s dying - yeah, the ship and Kirk)". It's worth rewatching STID: people WERE dying: so many of the crew were just crushed by heavy machinery or fell to their deaths after the ship lost it's control after the Vengeance' attack. The saucer section looked like a colander. And Uhura was not on the bridge and could have as well been hurt with the others. And yet - Spock didn't stop for a second, when he ran into her.

"She’s respectful of his differences, of his being Vulcan, he gets annoyed and gets into his face when necessary but always respecting the fact Spock is a Vulcan." That's it: she is respectful. But that says nothing about his feelings for her. "She’s the closer a human could be to a Vulcan." PRECISELY! And this the exact reason, why they work so well as friends and do not work at all as a romantic couple: their personalities do not complement and balance, but rather disbalance each other, amplifying each other's good and bad sides instead of balancing them out. He behaves very Vulcany around her. And don"t forget: he is actually half-Human. He runs to save her in Beyond? Well, of course he does! FFS: he was with this woman for years! By his own explanation to Jim "it's only logical"(c) that he goes to save her. She is a close person to him: he identifies his feelings for her as "affection and respect"(c). But this says absolutely nothing about the nature of those feeling being specifically romantic. The viewer is expected to assume by default, that it's "romance", simply because they are shown as a couple. But if we look closer at their interaction and analyze their behavior between themselves and others, we see a different picture: we see, that the message, that producers are trying to send to the audience about the nature of those characters supposed relationship contradicts their actual behavior on screen. The problem is, unlike friendship or respect, or being, as you said before, a "safe" choice (which is understandable on it's own, but all has to do with logic, not feelings), love is all about feelings and emotions. And it is not logical and has nothing to do with a "safe" choice. Even, when it comes to Vulcans: when you have real feelings for someone, you can not choose "to feel, or not to feel": you simply DO feel and cannot help it, that's the whole point and definition of "being in love"! That's why the "idealistic relationship" interpretation doesn't really work either: that's precisely Spock's explanation ("Niyota, You mistake my choice not to feel, for my lack of caring. The truth is precisely the opposite (c)) But as we see later, it actually appears to be bullshit, and it's evident, that when Spock really feels, he cannot control it. (Kirk: "How did you choose not to feel?" Spock: "I do not know: right now I am failing". (c)) This is the extreme situation, when Jim is dying, yes, but if we follow Spock's reaction to Jim throughout the whole movie and analyze it, we can see, that he is "failing not to feel" practically all the time, when Jim is involved. And this is a huge contrast with his behavior when being around Uhura. It's so demonstratively obvious, - it's embarrassing. And yes - you are right: this is exactly, what's happening in the movies: Uhura does feel a "safe" and logical choice for Spock and he is completely in control of his emotion towards her. And this is precisely what's wrong with their relationship. Even Quinto himself in one of his interviews said, that she makes him more Vulcan. But is it really what a human woman should do? I don't think so. Their relationship feel unequal and one-sided: in her eyes there are feelings. In his.... feelings, but not for her. Even at the end of Beyond: he is standing by her side, eying his captain, following him with the gaze, filled with sadness and longing!

This is exactly, what feels toxic for me: "she understands", "she respects", "she initiates the kiss", "she saves", it's always her-her-her, who's taking the initiative. But never Spock (accept when he decides to leave). This is not healthy: the relationship has to be from both sides. Like the ones of Jim and Spock: they complete, define and complement each other perfectly. And they both grow in this relationship, their characters develop naturally, simply by interacting. In Beyond they have minimum screen time together, and yet we see, how they are "on the same wave". You wrote, that he is Vulcan, and that's the reason he is emotionally reserved with Uhura. But as we see, it's not really the case: when it comes to Jim, his behavior changes and he is suddenly all about initiative, feelings and emotions. His interaction with Jim shows, that he can actually feel and be very emotional. Just not with Uhura. And she is actually the one, who's supposed to be his romantic interest. Yet we see, that it's Jim, that makes him feel and express his emotions and not her. She cannot even reach him emotionally by herself: she has to turn to Jim for help! Yet Jim doesn't need the third party's help to evoke emotions in Spock and make him feel: it just happen naturally, when they are together. In the shuttle on their way to Kronos she tries to reach Spock, appealing to his feelings. And she fails: he starts talking logically. To which Jim comments: "Not exactly a love song, Spock!" And he is right: it's not! But this is the way Spock is with Uhura! Then she turns to Kirk for help and when Jim addresses Spock's emotions, he immediately elicits the right emotional reaction from him: Spock starts talking about his feelings. When Spock's beating up Khan, Uhura's shouting, trying to reach him once again, and once again - in vain: no matter how many times she begs him to stop, he doesn't hear her, until she uses "the magic word": "Kirk"! And this immediately gets his attention! You can see it all clearly in the movie! You remember, how exactly Spock saves her from Krall? Well, the thing is: he doesn't - it's her, that saves them both at the end. He just falls on the ground, weak and useless. But when Jim is in danger, Spock forgets all his injuries and turns into a Superman: it seems, that Jim's presence itself gives him "wings" and purpose. And those are precisely the feelings, that can be associated with "being in love". And the fact, that it's Jim that makes him change his mind is also quite clear: it's all in Spock's facial expression. Quinto's acting is brilliantly accurate there. It's psychology: when we make the decision, our facial expression change, and that is exactly what we see happening to Spock: the look on his face tells it all. You can actually pinpoint the exact moment, when his heart changes. And later on, going through Spock Prime's belongings and finding the photo of them all on the bridge only confirms his decision to stay. (His mimics, again.) And he stays. But the bifurcation point of his decision was in the shuttle with Jim.