So I thought it would be fun to compile a list of crimes committed by various Gryffindor characters, especially the ones I have seen stans blatantly glorify or condone. This is also fueled by the narrative ignoring how horrific these actions are as well. For each, I will provide the definition of the crime as listed in British law (hyperlink provided in the crime category), cite the guilty parties and cite some of the flimsy defences provided by stans. The characters include, but are not limited to:
Hermione Granger
Weasley twins
Marauders (especially James Potter and Sirius Black)
Rubeus Hagrid
Professor McGonagall
This post will be a work in progress so I will add as I go along. Please feel free to add as well. Also, I am not a legal expert so do not expect these categories to be 100% accurate despite my doing my best. Here I go!
Crime: Sexual Harassment
The Equality Act 2010 says someone sexually harasses another person if they:
Engage in unwanted conduct of a sexual natureĀ and
The conduct has the purpose or effect of either violating the other personās dignity or creating an intimidating, hostile, degrading, humiliating or offensive environment for them.
Guilty parties: James Potter and other marauders as accomplices (Snape's Worst Memory, Book 5)
But too late; Snape had directed his wand straight at James; there was a flash of light and a gash appeared on the side of Jamesās face, spattering his robes with blood. James whirled about: a second flash of light later, Snape was hanging upside-down in the air, his robes falling over his head to reveal skinny, pallid legs and a pair of greying underpants.
Many people in the small crowd cheered; Sirius, James and Wormtail roared with laughter.
There was another flash of light, and Snape was once again hanging upside-down in the air.
āWho wants to see me take off Snivellyās pants?ā
Said by Marauder/James stans:
Snape was a future DE so he deserved it; ie. future criminals/bullies deserve to be bullied before they commit said crime. Someone had to bully Snape.
What James did was not sexual harassment
Snape is a guy so he can't be sexually harassed
I hate Snape so I love seeing him hurt and in pain (perfectly valid reason, we can hate who we want. still listing it though)
Boys will be boys. The marauders are just teenage boys joking around.
In that period, what James did was not illegal
Snape called Lily a mudblood so he deserved it
Snape attacked James so he deserved it
Crime: Kidnapping
The legal definition of kidnapping is to take someone unwillingly and then keep them illegally imprisoned without their valid consent. The latter is normally done with motive, such as financial gain in the form of a ransom.
Guilty parties: Hermione Granger (TheĀ Beginning, Book 4)
āOh, notĀ electronicĀ bugs,ā said Hermione. āNo, you see ā¦ Rita Skeeterā ā Hermioneās voice trembled with quiet triumph ā āis an unregistered Animagus. She can turn āā
Hermione pulled a small sealed glass jar out of her bag.
āā into a beetle.ā
Said by Hermione stans:
Rita deserved it for being a sleazy journalist and saying mean things about her and her friends
Rita deserved it by committing a crime first as an illegal animagus. So she has no leverage against Hermione.
The offence in section 1 of the 1933 Act is committed where a person over the age of 16, who has responsibility for a child under that age, wilfully assaults, illtreats, neglects, abandons, or exposes that child in a manner likely to cause āunnecessary suffering or injury to health including any mental derangementā.
Guilty parties: Prof Minerva McGonagall (SnapeāsĀ Grudge, Book 3)
Professor McGonagall was so furious with him she had banned him from all future Hogsmeade visits, given him a detention and forbidden anyone to give him the password into the Tower. Poor Neville was forced to wait outside the common room every night for somebody to let him in . . .
Context: An alleged mass murderer (Sirius Black) was on the loose š«
Said by McGonagall stans:
She's just strict
Crime: Assault
An assault is any act (and not mere omission to act) by which a person intentionally or recklessly causes another to suffer or apprehend immediate unlawful violence.
Guilty parties:
Rubeus Hagrid (The Keeper of theĀ Keys, Book 1)
He brought the umbrella swishing down through the air to point at Dudley ā there was a flash of violet light, a sound like a firecracker, a sharp squeal and next second, Dudley was dancing on the spot with his hands clasped over his fat bottom, howling in pain. When he turned his back on them, Harry saw a curly pigās tail poking through a hole in his trousers.
...
āOh, well ā I was at Hogwarts meself but I ā er ā got expelled, ter tell yeh the truth. In me third year. They snapped me wand in half anā everything.ā
Fred & George Weasley (Back to theĀ Burrow, Book 4 & Snape's Worst Memory, Grawp;Book 5) - two for the price of one lol
Dudley was no longer standing behind his parents. He was kneeling beside the coffee table, and he was gagging and spluttering on a foot-long, purple, slimy thing that was protruding from his mouth. One bewildered second later, Harry realised that the foot-long thing was Dudleyās tongue ā and that a brightly coloured toffee-wrapper lay on the floor before him.
āYeah, Montague tried to do us during break,ā said George.
āWhat do you mean, ātriedā?ā said Ron quickly.
āHe never managed to get all the words out,ā said Fred, ādue to the fact that we forced him head-first into that Vanishing Cabinet on the first floor.ā
āNot until Montague reappears, and that could take weeks, I dunno where we sent him,ā said Fred coolly. āAnyway ā¦ weāve decided we donāt care about getting into trouble any more.ā
To cap matters, Montague had still not recovered from his sojourn in the toilet; he remained confused and disorientated and his parents were to be observed one Tuesday morning striding up the front drive, looking extremely angry.
Hermione Granger (FelixĀ Felicis, Book 6)
āOppugno!ā came a shriek from the doorway.
Harry spun round to see Hermione pointing her wand at Ron, her expression wild: the little flock of birds was speeding like a hail of fat golden bullets towards Ron, who yelped and covered his face with his hands, but the birds attacked, pecking and clawing at every bit of flesh they could reach.
Said by Hagrid stans:
Like with Minerva, I don't see Hagrid stans or regular fans bringing this up. But crimes against the Dursleys are usually justified by the fandom due to their being abusive to Harry.
Said by Weasley twins stans:
The Dursleys were abusive to Harry so Dudley deserved it.
Dudley brought it on himself by eating it. The twins did not force him to eat it.
It was just a joke - harmless fun (for both crimes)
They did not know what the cabinet would do
They did not intend to almost kill Montague
Montague deserved it because HE WAS TAKING HOUSE POINTS (***INSERT RAGE!!!!***)
The twins are just mischievous. They are so funny!
Said by Hermione/Romione stans:
It was just a mistake
Hermione has anger issues. She's just a teenage girl.
Hermione was distraught. She didn't mean it.
Ron deserved it for hurting queen Hermione.
Ron doesn't care so why do you?
Romione is the best HP ship ever. All ships have rough patches.
No matter what Hermione does, I will always ship her with Ron. The other options are not good for her.
I will pause here because I can feel my blood pressure rising. I don't really have beef with anyone, I just don't like seeing these takes on my dash or these responses on my anti blog posts. I have no control over people's opinions and I doubt more than a handful of people care about mine.
Will continue next time on Taking Gryffindors and Their Stans to Court!
PS. All attempts to deflect by pointing the finger at other characters like Draco Malfoy, DEs, Severus Snape etc will be ignored. This is about JKR's darlings who apparently can do no wrong and the stans who shamelessly justify violence.
If you wanna protect AO3 or character ai. Or Wattpad. Or Tumblr. Or discord. Or even the right for undocumented people and minors to use the fucking Internet reblog this I swear to God. Reblog this and reblog as many KOSA posts as you can go on their website and contact your Representatives. Do it. Do it. Do it.
We all know, Lily and James end up together in their 7th year. So that means James bullied Severus for another year after SWM and Lily just, not caring? Or did she "try" to stop the bullying?
I mean, we know that what Severus called Lily in SWM is bad but it also applies to him because he's a half-blood, I don't really think she should've left him just because of that. Plus he was in a very stressful situation
So do you think she still tried to stop James and the marauders from bullying Severus in their 6th year or did she just not care?
I donāt think she should have left him either ofc but from experience, I understand why the word upset her, even if Snape is a Mudblood himself, that didnāt really matter to her. For example, Iām black, and in my community, there are some of us who donāt like for anyone (in the community or not) to call them The Wordā¢ļø, and while I donāt mind ppl in my community addressing me that way, I understand why others find it uncomfortable and wrong. So her not wanting another Mudblood to call her Mudblood is not foreign to me, BUT she reacted the complete wrong way. I also fully understand why he said it in that moment
Her behavior before and after that situation leads me to believe she NEVER cared about Snape being bullied. She never listened to him, never took his side, demonized him, defended his bullies, then married one. Whatever ādefendingā she was doing for him in SWM canāt even be taken seriously because she didnāt address him, ask him if he was alright, and stood there flirting with the assaulter.
She never cared. SWM just gave her the excuse to stop acting like she did.
You've got me thinking about Snetunia so here are some thoughts I had about a Snetunia au.
-Severus prefers being around Petunia even though they argue and call each other names. Nastiness is normal to him, Lily's kindness is abnormal to the point that he doesn't know what to do with it most of the time. So even though he and Petunia don't get along, they actually in some ways get along better, because there's more of an understanding there than between himself and Lily.
-Severus calls Petunia "Tuna" when they're little. I didn't come up with this I saw someone else using it at some point and I just really love it.
-They practice sarcastic comebacks with one another and love to tell dark humor jokes that upset Lily.
-Petunia is really hurt and angry that she can't go to Hogwarts with Severus. When she is finally convinced by a letter from Dumbledore that she for sure can't attend, she tries to get Severus to stay in Cokeworth with her because she is desperately afraid that Hogwarts or even her sister will take him away from her. She lacks confidence in herself, not being as pretty as Lily, or as 'special'. Surely Severus will come home for the summer and he'll no longer be interested in a boring, unspecial girl like herself. However-
-When he and Lily come home on the train for hols Petunia expects she will be ignored. Instead of being ignored, Severus immediately comes over to her and says 'Hey. Missed you, arseface." Petunia launches herself onto him in a hug. Severus has no idea how to respond, but he finds that he doesn't dislike the hug.
-Fourth year Severus saves up money from doing other students homework so he could buy mirrors for himself and Petunia to use to communicate. Writing her letter just doesn't seem like enough anymore, though he's not really sure why. He gives her this gift in private once he's home for the summer. He's a bit embarrassed about how sentimental the gift is. They use their mirrors every night even if it's just to tell each other 'good night'.
-Petunia and Severus go through a goth phase together and they can't comprehend why Lily likes to go around wearing every color of the rainbow like psychedelic vomit.
-They paint each others nails black
-At some point Severus stops calling her Tuna, and instead begins to call her Pet. This nickname never fails to make Petunia's heart flutter.
-Petunia is also bullied at school for having a 'horsey' face (as it was described in the book) so she and Severus sometimes bond over that, too. Severus has also beaten up her bullies before. This Cokeworth street kid is not above throwing a mean punch in defense of her. The first time he takes up for her like that, she thinks she's going to faint.
-Coming back to her insecurities, she once broke down to Severus crying, and asked him if he could make a potion for her so she could be prettier. Severus says that she's pretty just the way that she is. No one has ever called her pretty before. She kisses his cheek and confesses that she finds him handsome. No one has ever called Severus handsome before either.
-One year when Severus goes home for the hols Petunia tells him that the Muggle school is having a winter dance and she wants to take him. Severus, however, doesn't have any clothing nice enough to wear to a formal dance. He says yes anyway, and is willing to be embarrassed and mocked for her. At the last minute Petunia decides she doesn't want to go to any stupid dance, and instead takes Severus to a deserted alley way in the city where the dance beneath the smoggy stars with no one there to judge them.
-Once Severus realizes that he's in love with Petunia, it changes his path in life. Where he was once interested in joining the ranks of the Dark Lord, because he couldn't trust those on the Light, he decides to join the Light despite his lack of trust, despite knowing he'll have to continue to deal with Potter and Black. The girl he loves is a Muggle, and while being accepted in the wizarding world is something he longs for deeply, he just can't join the Dark because of what they do to Muggles. He gives up the acceptance he knew he would find there. Being accepted by Petunia is all he needs to know where his allegiance stands.
-Petunia never becomes angry and bitter because at some point she gets to let go of her jealousy and insecurity about not being special enough. Severus, in his quiet way, makes her feel special every single day.
-They have one daughter and when Lily and James are killed in the war, they take baby Harry to raise too. They have a happy family. No one lives in a cupboard. Both children are loved and nurtured the best as their parents can. Harry is taught about his parents rather than being left in the dark. He is not bullied by his cousin. He is never abused or starved.
-Petunia and Severus' daughter is named Hera as a tribute to Lily. In Greek mythology Hera is often depicted with a lily flower for purity. Among other things Hera is the goddess of war, protection, and justice. This foreshadows how she stands with Harry during the war and helps him to defeat Voldemort.
-Both kids are magical and go off to Hogwarts together. They're already way ahead of their peers with everything their proud father (Severus thinks of Harry as his son, really) has taught them thus far. Hera is Sorted into Slytherin, naturally. Harry begs the hat to be Sorted into Slytherin too so he can stay with his cousin, and the hat allows it. Severus and Petunia are so proud.
I kind of want to write it, or at least bits of it. Anyway, I hope you like it. Thanks for the inspiration <3
OMGGGG
Stop I love these so much
BESTIE HEAR ME OUT
If you write this, I want to be tagged!! Idc if itās just a smol little drabble, tag me!!!
@hedgehog-troops you were asking for an elaboration, and I wanted to make this for a really long time, so here it is.
Let's do this timeline wise, from what occurred first (and I will mention what I makes me angry at her in each part):
āLily, donāt do it!ā shrieked the elder of the two.
But the girl had let go of the swing at the very height of its arc and flown into the air, quite literally flown, launched herself skyward with a great shout of laughter, and instead of crumpling on the playground asphalt, she soared like a trapeze artist through the air, staying up far too long, landing far too lightly.
āMummy told you not to!ā
Petunia stopped her swing by dragging the heels of her sandals on the
ground, making a crunching, grinding sound, then leapt up, hands on hips.
āMummy said you werenāt allowed, Lily!
In Prince's Tale, we see that 9 y/o Lily ignores her sister and plays rather recklessly. A lot of people Petunia being jealous of Lily, full stop. But that is not what happens. Petunia mentions 'mummy told you not to,' this is not Petunia jealous of Lily, this is Petunia telling Lily to not disobey their mother and not be dangerous. Petunia isn't straight up anti-Lily's strange abilities. Petunia is simply telling Lily not to do what they are not allowed to do.
'āItās not right,ā said Petunia, but her eyes had followed the flowerās flight to the ground and lingered upon it. āHow do you do it?ā she added, and there was definite longing in her voice.'
She is curious, and a bit jealous, yes, but she also wants knows their mother disapproves. And that it's not natural, which it isn't.
āYou are,ā said Snape to Lily. āYou are a witch. Iāve been watching you for a while. But thereās nothing wrong with that. My mumās one, and Iām a wizard.ā
Petuniaās laugh was like cold water.
āWizard!ā she shrieked, her courage returned now that she had recovered from the shock of his unexpected appearance. āI know who you are. Youāre that Snape boy! They live down Spinnerās End by the river,ā she told Lily, and it was evident from her tone that she considered the address a poor recommendation.
āWhy have you been spying on us?ā
āHavenāt been spying,ā said Snape, hot and uncomfortable and dirty-haired in the bright sunlight. āWouldnāt spy on you, anyway,ā he added spitefully, āyouāre a Muggle.ā
Though Petunia evidently did not understand the word, she could hardly mistake the tone.
āLily, come on, weāre leaving!ā she said shrilly. Lily obeyed her sister at once, glaring at Snape as she left.
And then we see the two of them meet Snape for the first time. Snape who has been spying on Lily by that point. He even admits that. He comes from the bushes, and Petunia understandably gets scared by this boy who appears from the bushes and inserts himself into the conversation. When he mentions magic, Petunia immediately recognises him and that he is spying on them, we see Snape quite spitefully call her a muggle (showing how he is anti muggle before school even starts-- I wonder why Lily hung out with someone who clearly disliked her family)
The next scene we see that she has clearly decided to befriend this boy who was spying on him and has also insulted her sister. We also know that she ignores out the fact that he had been spying on them. Ignores, and not doesn't realise, bc he's already told her that on their first enconter. It's also clear by now that they've been hanging out for a while, despite the fact that Petunia doesn't like him.
And yes Petunia is spying on them, and insults him, but we see that they clearly don't like each other-- and this is also clearly not the first time Lily and Snape hung out.
And then there's the train scene.
Petunia calls Lily a freak, and we all reading it dislike Petunia, but Petunia was jealous in that scene. Lily does love Petunia, we see her leave Snape when he hurts her and even cry when she is called a freak, but the wedge b/w them grows when she returns to Snape again and again and does things such as letting Snape in Petunias' room to go through her things.
āNoānot sneakingāā Now Lily was on the defensive. āSeverus saw the
envelope, and he couldnāt believe a Muggle could have contacted Hogwarts,
thatās all! He says there must be wizards working undercover in the postal
service who take care ofāā
āApparently wizards poke their noses in everywhere!ā said Petunia, now as
pale as she had been flushed. āFreak!ā she spat at her sister, and she flounced
off to where her parents stood...
Petunia starts out quite mean, but that's bc Lily is leaving and she's sad at that. At the fact the she can't go. But then there's the fact that Lily lets Snape into ther room and they go through her things. Lil's defensive attitude just proves that she knows it's wrong, but did so anyway bc Snape was curious. We also know that by now Lily spends a lot of time with Snape, so she and Petunia clearly aren't that close anymore, which is purely because Lily chose to hang out with Snape (who again is openly admitting to having spied on her, watches her with greed in a rather creepy way and has also insulted muggles/ Petunia openly)
We also know that they are clearly fighting about something b4 Petunia calls her 'freak'. Perhaps Petunia wants her sister to stay but Lily refuses, we aren't given the reason for the fight. But Lily was wrong to got through Petunia's things, and honestly I understand why she reacted so strongly to that.
We see the them on the train next. James and Sirius start their own conversation:
āWho wants to be in Slytherin? I think Iād leave, wouldnāt you?ā James
asked the boy lounging on the seats opposite him, and with a jolt, Harry realized that it was Sirius. Sirius did not smile.
She lets Snape insult them ' āIf youād rather be brawny than brainyāā' but quickly sits up and decides to leave after Sirius decides to clap back:
āWhereāre you hoping to go, seeing as youāre neither?ā interjected Sirius.
James roared with laughter. Lily sat up, rather flushed, and looked from James to Sirius in dislike'
It's all about whether or not her friend was insulted to her, which makes sense ig, people have often aren't bothered by their friends insulting others. We do see that she gets bothered by insults towards Petunia, while also not being awfully nice to Petunia herself (so there's hypocrisy at play).
Then we see her fight with Snape.
ā. . . thought we were supposed to be friends?ā Snape was saying, āBest friends?ā
āWe are, Sev, but I donāt like some of the people youāre hanging round with! Iām sorry, but I detest Avery and Mulciber! Mulciber! What do you see in him, Sev, heās creepy! Dāyou know what he tried to do to Mary MacDonald the other day?ā
Lily had reached a pillar and leaned against it, looking up into the thin, sallow face.
āThat was nothing,ā said Snape. āIt was a laugh, thatās allāā
āIt was Dark Magic, and if you think thatās funnyāā
Now here is 5th year Lily and Snape, after the Prank and after Mary MacDonald incident. We aren't told exactly what it was, a lot of people think that he tried to rape her, he's good a the imperious curse so it's likely that he could have tried that. But nonetheless, Lily finds it evil, and doesn't approve of their friendship. They remain friends for some more time though, so clearly thinking that he hangs around with evil people isn't that concerning for her.
There is also something else in the following lines of this same conversation:
āWhat about the stuff Potter and his mates get up to?ā demanded Snape.
His color rose again as he said it, unable, it seemed, to hold in his resentment.
āWhatās Potter got to do with anything?ā said Lily.
āThey sneak out at night. Thereās something weird about that Lupin. Where
does he keep going?ā
āHeās ill,ā said Lily. āThey say heās illāā
āEvery month at the full moon?ā said Snape.
āI know your theory,ā said Lily, and she sounded cold. āWhy are you so obsessed with them anyway? Why do you care what theyāre doing at night?ā
āIām just trying to show you theyāre not as wonderful as everyone seems to think they are.ā
The intensity of his gaze made her blush.
āThey donāt use Dark Magic, though.ā She dropped her voice. āAnd youāre being really ungrateful. I heard what happened the other night. You went sneaking down that tunnel by the Whomping Willow, and James Potter saved you from whateverās down thereāā
Snapeās whole face contorted and he spluttered, āSaved? Saved? You think he was playing the hero? He was saving his neck and his friendsā too! Youāre not going toāI wonāt let youāā
āLet me? Let me?ā
Lilyās bright green eyes were slits. Snape backtracked at once.
āI didnāt meanāI just donāt want to see you made a fool ofāHe fancies you, James Potter fancies you!ā The words seemed wrenched from him against his will. āAnd heās not. . . everyone thinks. . . big Quidditch heroāā Snapeās bitterness and dislike were rendering him incoherent, and Lilyās eyebrows were traveling farther and farther up her forehead.
āI know James Potterās an arrogant toerag,ā she said, cutting across Snape.
āI donāt need you to tell me that. But Mulciberās and Averyās idea of humor is just evil. Evil, Sev. I donāt understand how you can be friends with them.ā
Harry doubted that Snape had even heard her strictures on Mulciber and Avery. The moment she had insulted James Potter, his whole body had relaxed, and as they walked away there was a new spring in Snapeās step...
We see Snape try to make Lily focus on something else as soon as she shows disaproval of him, so clearly their friendship is quiet broken by then. He bring James and his friends up, and Lily is not only confused on why they're being brought up but also angry at the theory Snape has.
Lily doesn't understand why Snape is so bothered with the Marauders. I think this is rather important to recognise. If someone is getting bullied, they'd want all the upper hand on said bullied, but clearly Lily doesn't think Snape needs an upper-hand. Lily doesn't think the rivalry (I don't think it is bully-victim) is intense enough for Snape to be so obsessed (I can't describe it as much else, especially with how his poking of his nose where it doesn't belong lead James to having to save him), which tells me that Lily could defend him as much as possible, but she doesn't approve of his sneaking about and fighting with them. Also, she herself calls him obsessed, so she probably thinks he's unreasonable, to some extent.
Snape also says that he's trying to show her that they're not as great as everyone thinks they are. Which means that it's possible that she doesn't hate him as much as we are lead to believe.
She also ends up defending them, or more specifically telling Snape that they aren't as bad as Mulciber and also telling Snape that he owes James one, which I do see as both defending herself and as a manipulation tactic. Defending herself, because this is clearly not the first time James and his mates have been discussed, and clearly she doesn't like him, but she doesn't hate him that much. This is also imo a manipulation tactic as she says that Snape was saved by James (which he was) and that they don't use dark magic, which as Muliciber and Avery did, The Marauders were better than them.
This immediately gets Snape quite worked up. And while he doesn't focus on how she has called them better than Snape's friends, it is something Lily mentions because he tries to convince her that his friends aren't all that bad, and Lily points out that they are worse, in her opinion, that the people he loathes most.
Snape tries to convince her, yet again, that James was not a hero bc her 'was trying to save his and his friends necks' too'. I don't see how this was supposed to have Lily favour him, bc that is still playing hero, but nonetheless, in his mind she's not allowed to think he was saved by James. He goes on quiet a rant, even mentioning James fancied her (AKA it was likely not made of such a big show as often as people would like to believe) is trying to get her to hate James (I don't think she hated him, just that she disliked him).
When Lily calls James a toerag, she follows immediately with 'But Mulciberās and Averyās idea of humor is just evil. Evil, Sev. I donāt understand how you can be friends with them.' The point of calling him that had been less because she wanted to remind Snape that she thought that too and more in hopes that he would hear her true point, AKA his friends are evil. This is clear-cut manipulation, which only fails because Snape doesn't seem to hear it, and even if he does he does not plan on stopping his friendship with them anyway-- as he has the same principals as them.
Also, another point is that despite how strongly he feels about the Prank, Lily praises James in hopes of getting her point heard, making him feel wrong/as if he owes James something and at no point is she bothered by the fact that he could have seriously been hurt. We don't know the exact timeframe b/w the Prank and this convo, but she has heard about the Prank from other people, and she hasn't asked/isn't bothered /doesn't believe Snape's version/thoughts on the matter. It's likely that she hasn't even asked him if he was alright and that they hadn't dicussed it much before this convo. She's more intersted in him listening to what she thinks about Muliciber and Avery, what Muliciber nearly did to Mary and who Snape should be frineds with.
Now, for SWM, I'll go straight to the point where Lily appears.
āLeave him ALONE!ā
James and Sirius looked around. Jamesās free hand jumped to his
hair again.
It was one of the girls from the lake edge. She had thick, dark red
hair that fell to her shoulders and startlingly green almond-shaped
eyes ā Harryās eyes.
Harryās mother . . .
āAll right, Evans?ā said James, and the tone of his voice was suddenly pleasant, deeper, more mature.
āLeave him alone,ā Lily repeated. She was looking at James with
every sign of great dislike. āWhatās he done to you?ā
āWell,ā said James, appearing to deliberate the point, āitās more the
fact that he exists, if you know what I mean. . . .ā
Many of the surrounding watchers laughed, Sirius and Wormtail
included, but Lupin, still apparently intent on his book, didnāt, and
neither did Lily.
āYou think youāre funny,ā she said coldly. āBut youāre just an arrogant, bullying toerag, Potter. Leave him alone.ā
āI will if you go out with me, Evans,ā said James quickly. āGo on... Go out with me, and Iāll never lay a wand on old Snivelly again.ā
Behind him, the Impediment Jinx was wearing off. Snape was beginning to inch toward his fallen wand, spitting out soapsuds as he
crawled.
āI wouldnāt go out with you if it was a choice between you and the
giant squid,ā said Lily.
Lily is defending Snape and standing her ground in this scene, which is just wonderful (if a bit contradictory to how she meant the praise/how he saved Snape more than him being an arrogant toerag in the earlier scene). She clearly had no issue with him getting hit, which makes some sense, ig, there is something a bit wrong with her reactions in the scene though:
James whirled about; a second flash of light later, Snape was hanging upside down in the air, his robes falling over his head to reveal skinny, pallid legs and a pair of graying underpants.
Many people in the small crowd watching cheered. Sirius, James,
and Wormtail roared with laughter.
Lily, whose furious expression had twitched for an instant as
though she was going to smile, said, āLet him down!ā
āCertainly,ā said James and he jerked his wand upward. Snape fell
into a crumpled heap on the ground. Disentangling himself from his robes, he got quickly to his feet, wand up, but Sirius said, Petrificus Totalus!ā and Snape keeled over again at once, rigid as a board.
āLEAVE HIM ALONE!ā Lily shouted. She had her own wand out
now. James and Sirius eyed it warily.
āAh, Evans, donāt make me hex you,ā said James earnestly.
āTake the curse off him, then!ā
'Lily, whose furious expression had twitched for an instant as
though she was going to smile'
She does regain herself, of course, and gets all angry with her wand out and whatnot, but she smiled when Snape was hung upside down. She SMILED when Snape was held UPSIDEDOWN.
True friend indeed, right?
There's more too:
āI donāt need help from filthy little Mudbloods like her!ā
Lily blinked. āFine,ā she said coolly. āI wonāt bother in future. And
Iād wash your pants if I were you, Snivellus.ā
āApologize to Evans!ā James roared at Snape, his wand pointed
threateningly at him.
āI donāt want you to make him apologize,ā Lily shouted, rounding
on James. āYouāre as bad as he is. . . .ā
āWhat?ā yelped James. āIād NEVER call you a ā you-know-what!ā
āMessing up your hair because you think it looks cool to look like
youāve just got off your broomstick, showing off with that stupid
Snitch, walking down corridors and hexing anyone who annoys you
just because you can ā Iām surprised your broomstick can get off the
ground with that fat head on it. You make me SICK.ā
She turned on her heel and hurried away.
āEvans!ā James shouted after her, āHey, EVANS!ā
But she didnāt look back.
When Snape calls her 'Mudblood', she literally just needs one blink before not only not caring about him anymore, but proper insulting him. And, I understand why she wanted nothing to do with him, but one blink and you go from 'LEAVE HIM ALONE' to 'WASH YOUR PANTS SNIVILLUS' That's far too fast.
For someone who stuck with him despite him hating Muggles and her sister and has friends who are, in her own words evil, she sure ditched awfully quickly.
People have said all kinds of things about this 'it took time for her to realise he was far gone' nah girl if it did she wouldn't have recated so coolly. She proabably was happy to have found a way out, she didn't just realise that he was bad, she's known that the whole time but waited until this to throw him out off her life.
She doesn't feel angry or sad that he did that, she genuinly wasn't bothered. She didn't want anyone to make him apologise, and she didn't want his apology either-- she just wants him out of her way.
A lot of people also say that Snape did the worst thing possible, damaging their friendship beyond repair. Here's the thing. There wasn't much to destroy/damage. She calls James as bad as Snape, and then goes: 'āMessing up your hair because you think it looks cool to look like youāve just got off your broomstick, showing off with that stupid Snitch, walking down corridors and hexing anyone who annoys you just because you can ā Iām surprised your broomstick can get off the ground with that fat head on it. You make me SICK.ā'
She is very unbothered by being called a Mudblood by her supposed best friend, responds very coolly and insults him, and then compares that to James ruffling his hair, playing with a snitch and having an ego?
Yah, definetely makes sense, she was just soo hurt she called him the very word that his enemy called him and then thought it compared to said enemy's ego. That's why she was so cool about it. So unbothered.
Also, this is not the first time Snape calls someone the term Mudblood, and Lily knows this:
"Iām sorry.ā
āIām not interested.ā
āIām sorry!ā
āSave your breath.ā
It was nighttime. Lily, who was wearing a dressing gown, stood with her arms folded in front of the portrait of the Fat Lady, at the entrance to Gryffindor Tower.
āI only came out because Mary told me you were threatening to sleep here.ā
āI was. I would have done. I never meant to call you Mudblood, it justāā
āSlipped out?ā There was no pity in Lilyās voice. āItās too late. Iāve made excuses for you for years. None of my friends can understand why I even talk to you. You and your precious little Death Eater friendsāyou see, you donāt even deny it! You donāt even deny thatās what youāre all aiming to be! You canāt wait to join You-Know-Who, can you?ā
He opened his mouth, but closed it without speaking.
āI canāt pretend anymore. Youāve chosen your way, Iāve chosen mine.ā
āNoālisten, I didnāt meanāā
āāto call me Mudblood? But you call everyone of my birth Mudblood, Severus. Why should I be any different?ā
He struggled on the verge of speech, but with a contemptuous look she turned and climbed back through the portrait hole...
She isn't interested with his apology, which makes sense. But what doesn't make sense is how she is so alright after losing the friendship she had since, lets see 15-9, 6 years.
She also is alright, absolutely fine, only talking to him because he threatened to sleep out there.
She'd been 'making excuses for years'. She's known for years. She even elaborates on what she knows 'you and your precious little Death Eater friendsāyou see, you donāt even deny it! You donāt even deny thatās what youāre all aiming to be! You canāt wait to join You-Know-Who, can you?'
She also says that she 'can't pretend anymore' and she finishes with 'But you call everyone of my birth Mudblood, Severus. Why should I be any different?'
It's not like she didn't know. She genuinely didn't care. She'd been pretending it wasn't there. She had been making excuses.
This doesn't really affect her properly, in the way it should because she's known all along.
She only stops the friendship when he called her the word, just proving her 'holier than thou', entitled hypocritical self.
And then lets point out how a few months after ending her friendship with Snape, she befriends James. And then she starts dating him.
With this, I'll conclude:
Lily Evans is a bad sister
Lily Evans is a bad friend
Lily Evans is a hypocrite
Lily Evans is entitled
Lily has a 'holier than thou' attitude
Lily Evans is arrogant and egotistical
Also, I'd like to point out some other things that makes me hate Lily: Everyone loving her and making her the pedestal for goodness. She was not. She is flawed, hypocritical and entitled, and concieted. Also, Harry did not yearn for a mother figure, he yearned for a father figure. People keep on getting this wrong. And she wasn't perfect. Petunia also wasn't the only reason for the wedge b/w the sisters. And James wasn't the 'lucky one'. and James wasn't the reason Lily and Snape's friendship ended. (basically, I hate Lily bc of the way fandom hates her, and bc of the canonical things talked above. As Sirius says, 'reading b/w the lines')
@lostwriter--xx3 if you want to add anymore points. Or anyone who wants to add more points, really.
Gonna ask you a difficult question! How would you characterize/handle the Marauders if you were doing a show of that era? Like how would you portray them? I personally think I could probably make Lupin and Sirius sympathetic even while portraying them as a enabler and bully respectively but I would struggle a lot with dealing with James.
Oouu this is an interesting question!!
Ok letās see:
James: I would portray him as being a spoiled brat, but I would also portray him as someone who follows and not lead. When I first read the books I didnāt get the idea that James was the leader of the groupā¦Sirius was. Think about SWMā¦James didnāt have Snape on his mind until Sirius was bored, the only reason he started messing with Snape was to please Sirius. I would also portray James as someone who got aggressive when things doesnāt go his way, it makes sense considering he was 100% wiling to hex Lily because she didnāt agree (or pretended she didnāt agree) with his treatment of Severus
Sirius: I would give him so many layers omg! I would make sure to portray some kind trauma, he didnāt have a good home life and even if I donāt like him I canāt erase that or downplay it (like Snaters do to Severus). I feel like it has a big role to play in the type of person he is. He hates his Slytherin family and doesnāt want to be like them, yet the only thing that differs him from them is his house and the fact that he isnāt a death eaterā¦heās just as evil as them but heās in denialā¦he has some kind of superiority complex due to him being in Gryffindor and I feel like he thinks he can do no wrong because of it. Thatās why he gives no fucks about bullying and almost killing Snape: he doesnāt see him as another human..heās just another Slytherin scum. I feel like this plays into his treatment of Remus too, heās a werewolf, not human, therefore below him..but heās a Gryffindor and a friend nonetheless. Sirius is complex asf
Remus: I would focus a lot on his lycanthropy and how he feels about himself. I donāt think he was completely happy in the friendship he had with the Marauders but they were all he had and they did do a lot for him, but the bullying and the sideways crack Sirius always made about his condition and how they took him into villages and endangered peopleā¦the āprankāā¦I would definitely portray these things but I would make it known that the only reason he didnāt stop them is because he didnāt wanna lose his friends. Coward.
Peter: Oh godā¦Heād be sneaky asf. The only reason he even hangs out with the Marauders is because (in the most overlooked words of Sirius) they were āthe biggest bullies in the playground.ā I would portray him to be the āenabler side characterā but Iād definitely shift a lot of attention on him towards the end of the series, because he had A LOT to do with the whole Voldemort situation and I feel like his potential is overlooked within the Marauders community
Lily: šā¦.She disgusts me. She never REALLY cared about Severus, not IMO. He was her guide to the wizarding world, thatās it. She pretended to care that he was bullied because thatās the right thing to do but I feel like she quickly came to terms with the fact that she truly didnāt care. I feel like she fell for James while this bullying was going on but rejected him in attempt to keep her morals (if she even had any) and thatās the reason she defended them and gaslit Snape after the āprank.ā She told him he should be grateful to his bullies for āsaving his lifeā (although Iām almost completely sure James only did it to save their ass, not snapes) and basically made it seem like Snape was worse than them because āat least they donāt use dark magicā š. Lily is definitely that character who struggles with morality.
Iām jumping you back into the hp fandom. I need to know your in depth opinions on jily!
Are you sure? I mean, are you sure?
...Alright, then.
WARNINGS: This is going to be so very extremely anti. Anti-Lily, Anti-James, Anti-Jily, Anti-JKR. Just... so much negativity. Seriously, please don't read this if you like even a part of any of these.
Are we clear?
Okay.
So, to begin with, James and Lily are held up as paragons of virtue for a lot of the first half of the series, and I'm honestly convinced that's what JKR intended them to be. Even when she tries to make them more like characters than ideals, it's fairly half-hearted from an author who has brought us such great examples of depth and complexity as Severus Snape and Albus Dumbledore.
There is so much room for extrapolation and fan interpretations, not least of all because both of them exhibit some deeply disturbing behaviour that mostly gets glossed over by the narrative. And my interpretations aren't going to be kind. Mostly, I'm sad to say, as a reaction to 1) fans of Jily trying to shove it down my throat when I was a teenager and 2) JKR's anti-trans warmongering making me highly critical of a lot of her attitudes towards gender, sexuality, and relationships.
So, first, I'm going to try and detail what we actually know about them from canon. Then, I'm going to talk a bit about how knowledge of JKR's prejudices and biases have affected my interpretation. Then... I'm going to drag Jily through the mud.
So, James and Lily met on the train to boarding school at eleven. James picked on her friend based on a social prejudice that's new to her, and she removed them from the situation. Over the following years, James picks on her friend frequently, which she doesn't ever seem indignant about, culminating in the event where James, who's had a crush on her for a while and obviously enough that Severus noticed it, tries to threaten her into dating hi., Lily puts him down harshly, and then leaves her newly ex-friend to his mercies after he insulted her. At some point about a year to a year and a half later, they start dating after 'James deflated his head a little'. They marry straight out of school, and join a vigilante group to fight terrorists together. Also, James goes into training to become an Auror. There is no mention, afaik, as to what else Lily is doing in that time, besides that we know that she and James 'thrice defied' Voldemort, presumably in person, given that I'm sure a lot more couples 'thrice defied' him in some way during the course of those three years. They have a child two years into joining this war, and go into hiding to protect him. They know there's a spy in the Order, and this fractures their friendships (well, James's we're never told who Lily's friends are besides Severus except that she has them), while James chafes at the restrictions of being in hiding. Eventually, Voldemort finds them, and James tries to hold him off without a wand while Lily runs upstairs to get Harry, then stands over his crib begging Voldemort to spare her baby.
That's... pretty much all we know of them from canon.
Metatextually, we know that Lily is meant to represent the unconditional love of the mother, the selfless sacrifice, and James is meant to represent the ideal that Harry's striving to become. (Ask me some time about how disturbing I find the parallels between Jily and Hinny.) And that together, they are meant to be the shining example of love and happiness and bravery and justice. (Also ask me some time about how there isn't a single adult in Harry's life who looks at him and cares (or doesn't care) about him for him, instead of because of who his parents are.)
And given what I now know about JKR's ideas about gender, gender roles, and therefore the standard hetrosexual relationships of our society... The disturbing inconsistencies between what we're told about Jily and what we actually see of their relationship begin to make a lot more sense.
So on the one hand, I fully believe that Lily and James belong together and deserve each other. On the other, I don't really mean that as a good thing.
James's feelings towards Lily are not selfless and they're not kind. He bullies her friend and tries to use that as leverage to get her to date him, and literally only stops where she can see him after that. Lily... finds that good enough. Frankly, given some of the details and turns of phrase in the the Prince's Tale, I would go so far as to say she passively encouraged him even before that. Look at the way she talks to Severus about the bullying. She condemns James's behaviour once, in passing, to stop Severus from bringing him up so that she can continue to scold him. (I'm not passing judgement on whether that scolding was justified or not, that is a whole different meta.)
We don't know what they looked like while they were dating, but we do know they probably weren't even dating for a full year before they got married. Understandable given the state of war their world was in, but... not something I'd hold up as a sign of good decision making on either of their parts. James 'got the girl' (I don't think I need to elaborate on why I find that whole dynamic skeevy) and Lily... I get some serious 'I can fix him' vibes from her decision to date him, and that never ends well. After that, we're told that James and Sirius are trying/want to become Aurors. (I think. I can't actually remember where... Please correct me if I'm wrong and that's only fanon.) With no mention of what Lily's doing afaik.
We know she fights for the order, but... I expect, if you asked JKR what Lily's career was, the answer would be 'housewife'. Within a year or so, she's pregnant, a year later, she's in hiding, a year later, she's dead.
Now, I do understand that part of the justification for all of this will be 'it was war, they were young and in love', but it seems like a really stupid thing, to me, when they've been personally and repeatedly targeted by Voldemort himself, to have a baby. They're really young, James can't possibly be out of training yet, there is a mass-murdering dark wizard gunning for them, Lily is part of his preferred demographic to torture and kill, and their reaction is 'you know what would make this situation better? A baby!'?!
Now, why would Lily, who from what we've seen was a passionate, (self-)righteous person, be willing to take time off from fighting a war that's both extremely personal to her and also escalating fairly quickly, to dedicate herself to raising a baby? Because motherhood is the epitome of womanhood. How could she not?
Hello, JKR, I can see you there behind the curtain again.
As for James in all of this... Well, I've written a draft ranting about James Potter that I didn't post because I try not to spew negativity all over the internet anymore (I tried that once, it wasn't fun for anybody). But I will say that I think there are some deeply sinister interpretations of a rich spoiled bully immediately going into law enforcement after school while his 'headstrong' wife ends up staying home to watch the baby.
TL;DR: Lily and James are that perfect married couple who on the surface appear to be every romantic dream made real, but when you scratch the surface, a lot of ugliness oozes out. At best they were young and stupid and made some significant mistakes that they never got the chance to learn from and reflect on because they died so young. At worst they were a toxic, abusive mess vying for power over each other and we only never got to see them fall apart because they died so young.
(Of course, they never would have, because we know that this is JKR's idea of an ideal relationship. Yikes.)
They are so severely fucked up, and if they'd actually been presented that way, I might have actually found them engaging and interesting, as individuals and as a couple. But I took a hard right into 'I'm fucking done' because so many people bought into the stereotypical heteronormative love story of a couple who can do no wrong.
Iām sorry, but if i saw my best friend surpressing a smile seeing me hanging upside down, my underwaer- possibly even my genitals- being exposed in front of strangers, that friendship would be over.
She would be dead to me from that point onwards.
You certainly wouldnāt see me begging her on hands and knees to take me back.
That train has left.
The fact that Severus still tried to reconcile with her after this incident shows me how desperate he must have been, how much he must have loved her.
And my heart just breaks a little more for him.
Lily Potter was a horrible friend and Severus Snape deserved so so much better.
I had never heard the "If Harry was a girl who looked like Lily" argument and I was shocked. They're basically saying what if harry were a girl who looked like lily instead of James. Snape would have inappropriate attitudes towards her (SA) and I was disgusted.
Personally I think severus would be less trigger by not having to see his bullie's face every day and it would probably make him more nostalgic. But thats all, I think he would still have to be a jerk towards her sometimes to keep his cover as a spy. But I would never think he would SA her wtf. Sorry I still in shock
We are never told that Snape loved Lily romantically or desired her sexually. Why if a man wants to protect a woman can't it be just because he loves her. Why people think always have to be romantic feelings or sexual desire involved?
Furthermore, they make look Snape as a potential pedophile, like wtf. We don't even know much about his sexuality, I would say that he is one of the most queer-coded characters and everyone ignores that. But at no time he show inappropriate sexual attitudes towards his students.
Why is it so hard to understand that Snape loved Lily and that doesn't mean he wanted to fuck her. If he had been that obsessed he would have looked for women who looked like lily and fuck them but that is something we never see. Because Snape didn't love her looks. He loved her she was kind to him and treated him like a human being.
Stop portraying him like a obsessed creep willing to do SA pls that have no sense.
I know that you have very different opinions on Severus Snape but I would just like to ask you ā why do you like him in the first place? I myself aren't very fond of James Potter but hating on him and liking Snape is kind of hypocritical if you ask me.
It's very confusing that you preach that James Potter was a bully and a horrible person who deserved to die when his crimes were a million times less than Severus's. He was a bully and a sexual assaulter and I hundred percent agree to that claim. But Snape was pathetic, an internalized racist, a murderer, and someone who thought taking his anger out on little kids instead of getting a wife and leaving the poor things alone was more adequate.
And no, I will not just leave these claims like this without proof of them like other anonymous asks like to do which is totally annoying.Ā
Pathetic:Ā
Even after calling Lily a mudblood and hearing her out in fifth year about why she couldn't be friends with him anymore, he continued to join the Death Eaters. Instead of proving to Lily that he could change and fight for her, he joined the Death Eaters and only actually regretted his decision when Lily died because of his mistake. James at least changed, or Lily wouldn't have married him otherwise. We know he did since his "ego deflated" and he became a better man for Lily. Snape didn't realize that until his love was taken away from him and probably never would have unless Lily died.
Racist:Ā
He called Lily a mud blood word when the only thing she did was try to help him in front of, like, a hundred kids who must have been her friends. He chose to embarrass the only person who cared for him and decided to go there, too. If someone nowadays called their friend the N-Word and refused to take it back in public, all hell would break loose. But most of you hate muggle borns, too, right? Or do you guys just not like Lily?Ā
Murderer:
This is pretty self-explanatory. He sold out the prophecy to Voldemort knowing full well the family behind it would suffer. He never took the initiative to sit down and think about the fact that if it had been his own family or himself he was selling out. He wouldn't have lived with a care in the world if it had been the Longbottoms. But it was Lily. Not the Potters, only Lily. A million people could die and he wouldn't take a flying fuck.Ā
With all due respect. I know some people like this messed up aspect of him and if you are one of them then that is perfectly valid. I just really needed to ask because all these other Snape stans would come at me and bite my throat off. I know you are one of the rational ones. Why do you like Severus Snape?Ā
Hey there, anon. Because of your first and last lines Iām going to try to be civil with you and politely explain my opinions (this might not apply to the part where I respond to you calling blood supremacy racism and comparing Mudblood to the N word, but I digress).
Aight, letās get to work:
hating on him and liking Snape is kind of hypocritical if you ask me.
Iām not asking you. Not really. I mean, you might consider it hypocritical if you donāt actually understand what made Jamesās character completely dilapidated for me.
James is, an awful character. Awful as in morally? Maybe, but Iāve loved worse characters before. Awful as in his character is awfully-written? Yes. Even if Severus was worse than James as a person, I would still love him and hate James. You know why? Because Severusās character is interesting, because Severusās character is relevant, because his character is genuinely enjoyable to read. James is none of those things (at least to me).
Not only is James a shitty person whose scenes all show him in an exceedingly unpleasant light, but he isnāt even a well-written character. I literally love Voldemort and Bellatrix for godās sake. Are they undoubtedly worse than James? Obviously. But theyāre interesting characters with compelling origin stories/backstories and, in my eyes, that āmakes up forā their shittiness. I also love Jamesās best friend (all of them actually), Sirius, I think he sucks as a person but his character is complicated and brilliantly-writtenāthatās why Iām capable of ālooking pastā his awfulness. James has nothing to make up for it; heās not funny, heās not enjoyable, heās quite frankly just as intriguing as watching paint dry, and he was dead a decade before the series even began. Heās practically just a plot deviceāheās known as āHarry Potterās dad,ā āSirius and Remusās best friend,ā āSnapeās bully,ā but we never actually get to see his character being explored. He served no purpose in the story besides giving both Severus and Harry traumatic backstories.
So, not hypocritical. Mostly just a preferred taste of interesting characters.
Those three paragraphs alone fundamentally debunk your whole ask but Iāll continue for the sake of it.
It's very confusing that you preach that James Potter was a bully and a horrible person who deserved to die when his crimes were a million times less than Severus's
Read what I said above first.
And no darling, I consider a guy who bullied kids because of past trauma and having to constantly face the carbon-copy of his abuser a lot less worse than a guy who bullied someone completely powerless against him (when it came to social status) and traumatised said person for no other reason than because he (James) was a spoiled, rich, privileged pureblood. One of them is a scarily realistic representation of how real-life victims can cope, can you spot which one Iām talking about?
Iād argue that itās unfair to compare the two solely based on their bad-things-they-did count as Severus lived nearly twice as much as James did and because of what Iāve just stated above, but anyway.
But Snape was pathetic, an internalized racist, a murderer, and someone who thought taking his anger out on little kids instead of getting a wife and leaving the poor things alone was more adequate.ļæ¼
(āinstead of getting a wifeā šš whatās that supposed to mean?)
Moving on.
And no, I will not just leave these claims like this without proof of them like other anonymous asks like to do which is totally annoying.
oh you have nothing to worry about, anon, youāre being just as annoying š
Even after calling Lily a mudblood and hearing her out in fifth year about why she couldn't be friends with him anymore, he continued to join the Death Eaters. Instead of proving to Lily that he could change and fight for her, he joined the Death Eaters
Youāre acting as if Lily would ātake him backā even if he did do all that.
1. That doesnāt make him pathetic. That makes him human.
2. Losing Lily only pushed him to join the DEs, she was the only āsource of lightā in his life, and he had just lost her. He was at his breaking point. Do you people not understand how humans work? ā¦Or how cults target younger candidates and use known methods to recruit them?
and only actually regretted his decision when Lily died because of his mistake.
āØThis is where his redemption arc startedāØ
āØYou canāt use what made him defect (the turning point) to try and prove that he wasnāt a hero afterwardsāØ
āØLily may have been the initial reason he defected but he actually grew to believe in the Orderās cause and continued to fight for it even after he knew Lilyās sacrifice was in vaināØ
āØDonāt use āhe only *did this* because ofā¦ā as an argument when itās simply untrueāØ
James at least changed, or Lily wouldn't have married him otherwise.
Weāre literally told that James went behind Lilyās back and continued his quarrel with Snape, she wouldnāt even be able to ājudge him properly.ā And donāt use the love interest as a moral compass, it doesnāt make James a better person.
We know he did since his "ego deflated" and he became a better man for Lily.
Sure Jan
Snape didn't realize that until his love was taken away from him
Didnāt realise what? š
and probably never would have unless Lily died.
Ok but he did ārealise *whatever tf youāre talking about*ā so donāt rely on hypotheticals for arguments.
He called Lily a mud blood word when the only thing she did was try to help him in front of, like, a hundred kids who must have been her friends.
āthe mudblood wordā š
Hey babe, he called her a slur that also applies to him mere moments before he was sexually assaulted and choked with soap suds. Doesnāt justify it, but I donāt think it makes me a horrible person for thinking that Lily was wrong for not reporting the Marauders to a Professor (aka the Logical/Actually-Helps-Your-Friend-Out thing to do) before he even called her that.
Also? He apologised and continued to regret it for the rest of his life. Does that mean Lily shouldnāt have been upset? No, she had every right. But he did the one thing Jimothy couldnāt do; actually saying the words Iām sorry, so much for āJames at least changed.ā
He chose to embarrass the only person who cared for him and decided to go there, too.
Yes of course, this situation is about Lily. Weāre totally not talking about the same scene where 16 year old Severus was immobilised, sexually assaulted, exposed against his will, and waterboarded, all āin front of a hundred kidsāāyou said it, not me, although I was about toāand his best friend. No ofc we should just be focusing on what happened to Lilyāthe person who also nearly smiled at her friend being flipped upside down and being put in an extremely humiliating and traumatic situation.
If someone nowadays called their friend the N-Word
You mean if a mixed kid called a black kid the N word?
and refused to take it back in public
We see that he was clearly sorry for it š The damn boy had been sexually harassed, he was likely too shocked to even process what happened, and he didnāt ārefuse to take it back,ā he didnāt even say anything (which makes my other point even more likely to have been the case). I also think Rowling purposefully made it that way because, at that point, we didnāt know that Severus and Lily were friends, and she didnāt want to āhint at it too muchā by making Severus yell after her or something. Thatās my personal thought though.
all hell would break loose.
Yeah it would, but I think thatās because this is a real, serious issue that takes place almost half a century after the situation youāre referring to that also took place in a fictional universe that was involving a made-up kind facing made-up discrimination.
But most of you hate muggle borns, too, right?
*writes this down in the List Of Weirdest Shit Snaters Have Ever Said To Me*
Or do you guys just not like Lily?
Not really. Weāre just capable of exhibiting a human feeling called āØempathyāØ to a character whoās gone through an unbelievable amount of shit throughout his life. Doesnāt mean we donāt like Lily or that weāre somehow misogynists or blood supremacists (imagine calling real people that.. lmao).
This is pretty self-explanatory.
And hell is just a sauna.
Thereās no proof Severus knew it was about a family or a child, or even a person (that is, if you consider the part of the prophecy that he heard and analyse the potential meanings), but Iāll be putting that aside.
Even if he knew:
ā He was working for Voldemort at that time, he was a loyal Death Eater who worked for a mind-reading maniac, what else do you want him to do?
ā You canāt use that to prove that he didnāt become a hero lol. He may have done that, but he also went on to save countless lives (at least more than the amount he supposedly mUrDeReD) and fight for the Light side for nearly ten times the amount of time he spent following Voldemort. He called Lily a Mudblood? He (actually) changed and went on to yell at the portrait for referring to Hermioneāsomeone he dislikedāas a Mudblood. He was a Death Eater? He was also one of the greatest heroes of the entire series. And so on. Do you not understand the concept of a redemption arc? The redeemed character had to have done bad things in the past to redeem themselves for it, otherwise what would they have to repent from? 90% of the fandom shares this strange logic and itās pretty fucking irritating.
He never took the initiative to sit down and think about the fact that if it had been his own family or himself he was selling out.
Why would he sell himself out? š
He wouldn't have lived with a care in the world if it had been the Longbottoms.
Maybe. But it wasnāt the Longbottoms, so shush.
But it was Lily. Not the Potters, only Lily.
Then why would he have gone to Dumbledore? He already asked Voldemort to spare Lily, why would he go to Dumbledore and betray his current master, just to warn Dumbles that Voldemort was after the whole family? Thatās literally what made Dumbles place James and Lily under the protection. They wouldāve died a lot sooner if Severus truly hadnāt ālived with a care in the world.ā
A million people could die and he wouldn't take a flying fuck.
Canāt say that without any proof.
I know some people like this messed up aspect of him
We like the complicated, traumatised, grey hero who was also extremely entertaining and fun to read about. Not the shit you think heās done.
I just really needed to ask because all these other Snape stans would come at me and bite my throat off.
Me who already gobbled down your throat entirely: š§āāļø /j
I know you are one of the rational ones. Why do you like Severus Snape?Ā
Indeed I am. (Not sure if youād think that after seeing my answer but Iāll accept the backhanded compliment with pleasure.)
I like him because heās enjoyable. Thatās really the most dominant factor when it comes to characters, movies, tv shows, etc. I donāt care about the plot, I donāt care about their morals, whatās ultimately the thing that matters most to me is if theyāre enjoyable. If I enjoy reading/watching it/them, then Iāll love it. I donāt care whether Severus was a terrible person or not, if I enjoy scenes with him in it, if I find him entertaining, if Iām legitimately able to enjoy every second, then Iāll love him. I was one of the few who loved Snape at first glance, from when I read the series for the very first time. I was a little girl at that time, he was of course needlessly shitty to Harry, but I was able to find the humour in his classy jibes, especially as I got older. His sarcasm was to die-for, and in the later books we got to learn more about his past, and so his character became all the more nuanced. And then there was the grandiose reveal in Deathly Hallows. I still wouldāve loved him even if he was a villain, and at least then thereād be many less tiring debates about his morality.
Snape is half blooded, everyone in the hp fandom should know that by now. So him calling Lily a mudblood isn't a big deal, right? I'm saying this as a black person that doesn't say the n-word because it's more of an American thing (I'm British), but grew up watching a lot of black centred forms of media. With all this consumerism I've come to recognise that anyone who is black can say the word.
"Mudblood" refers to a wizard or witch that comes from a muggle background, it not only refers to muggleborns but also halfbloods. In terms of the blood dynamic I'm using points of history, like how black people were looked down upon but if they were half black and/or lighter skinned then they were sometimes given better treatment. I think someone can explain this better than I can, but I think you guys understand where I'm getting at.
So Snape saying āI don't need help from filthy little Mudbloods like her!ā is like saying "I don't need help from bit** a** nig*as". I'm censoring because I don't want to be banned or something.
No one has to agree, it's just something I can't help thinking about and I'm wondering about everyone else's views on this.
Also, the mudblood slur doesn't have the same significance as the n-word. Muggleborns taking the mudblood slur would've been a power move, but no. They just can't stand that word.
I headcanon that American muggleborns (Ilvermorny students) and halfbloods took notes from the black community and use the word for each other. Anyone with no lick of muggle in them gets the sh** beat out of them. Harry Potter and the halfblood Crip.
To all the people who think James ādid godās workā by bullying Snape, I hope you realise that you sound like horrible people for thinking that sexual assault, especially when it was done to a child (if you like to call 16 year old James who committed SA āa childā then I have every right to call Snape a child when he was the same age and was actually the person the SA was done to), or bullying, could ever be justified.
Snape became a Death Eater after they graduated, so you canāt use that as an excuse. And do people not realise that a poor, half-blood Slytherin being bullied by rich popular Gryffindors would only drive him further away from the light side?
And no matter how awful you think teen!Snape mightāve beenāthat would still never, ever justify Jamesās actions in SWM. You do not have to be perfect to be a victim, you donāt even have to be a good person to be a victim. Not being an innocent saint does nothing to erase being bullied or assaulted, and the fact that Snape antis have continuously twisted the narrative in order to try and make Snape look like the bad guy when he was canonically the one who was bullied, harassed, and nearly killed, is just revolting.
Using logic like āhe deserved it,ā āitās his fault for not wearing trousers,ā āitās his fault for being a curious teenager,ā āhe did other bad things so that makes it okay,ā etc, makes you sound almost as shitty as James and Sirius. You arenāt fictional characters, your words and actions hold power, and you should understand that claims like that are the very things that awful people have said to try and disregard real-life victims.
Bullying should never be glorified, no matter who itās done to or done by. Period.
You know something I just realized, excluding SS since Harry, Ron and Hermione weren't a trio yet, there has only been like 5 major fights among the three of them over the course of 7 years. All of which happened as dumb teenagers or when they were literally fighting a war and tensions were already high. Even then, they all realized how they were in the wrong and become better. Like, maybe I'm not an expert on friendship but doesn't that show just how great all three of them are as a group?
Youāre right, they didnāt fight all that much and when they did; they forgave each other in the end.
Theyāre teenagers, theyāre under the stress of the Wizarding War, they make silly mistakes, they learned from their mistakes, they forgave each other. All of those fights just show how strong their friendship is and it helps them grow as people.
Yāknow, this is one of the reasons why I have very little respect for Lily. After Severus made one mistake, she immediately threw away YEARS of friendship, and over one word too. Itās like she didnāt even value their friendship at all, which is incredibly disappointing given how much Severus loves her, this is one of the major reasons why I donāt like or respect her.
I love the Golden trioās friendship, theyāre all perfect together and have a real bond that no silly fights can ever break.ā¤ļø
The golden trio were aptly named, their friendship was 24k gold baby. Strongest friendship for sure in the entire series, possibly strongest relationship period (only other contender is Molly and Arthur Weasley, change my mind)
I go back and forth with Lily honestly. I appreciate the difficulty of the position she was in, being in Gyffindor house already primed her toward hating Severus and his house. Continuing their relationship until 5th/6th year (canāt remember when the worst memory is off the top of my head but it was around then) couldnāt have been the easiest thing to do considering he was not only a Slytherin but an unpopular one. No matter who you are, children care about how their peers regard them and especially as a muggleborn she must have been conscious of how she was being received and wanted any social boost she could get. It must have been exciting for her to be wanted by the Gryffindor star quidditch player, a rich pureblood with rich pureblood friends at that. We cannot reasonably expect Lily to place her friendship with Severus above fitting in with the rest of the Gryffindors, the same people who were her housemates for 7 years. If she did that would be admirable and prove that she is the exceptionally kind person the fandom claims she is but alas, she was just a regular teenager with regular teenager moral aptitude. To her credit she did stay friends with him for the majority of their time at Hogwarts but they werenāt very good friends and she was pulling away from him even before they crashed and burned for good.
I donāt fault her for cutting Severus off, I think it was somewhat understandable for a teenage girl to cut her losses with an obviously dying friendship when she had an in to a clique that will elevate her social standing, I just think thatās a very teenager thing to do. She was already taking a social hit for associating with him for so long when her other friends obviously didnāt want her to. Whatās indefensible for me is how she treats him before they go their separate ways. When she defends James Potter, when she says Severus is being ungrateful to him for saving his life, when she asks him why he is so obsessed with the group of boys who have been making his life a living hell, thatās when I was over Lily 100%. Sheās been watching him get his ass kicked by a group of boys for literal years and she asks why heās obsessed with them? She hears that James heroically, selflessly saved Severus, a boy heās been mercilessly bullying for years, something she never contradicts herself as she calls him a bully multiple times, and she goes yup totally doesnāt sound like bullshit, I donāt need to ask Severus for his side of the story it makes total sense. If my best friend had the nerve to say I was being ungrateful to my bully I would throw up fr. Then if she married him Iād probably have to set myself on fire for having wasted my time being friends with her. If Severus loved himself at all he would have been the one to say deuces and went their separate ways after that conversation, no bad words required.Ā
If you were in Lilyās place and Snape called you a mudblood, would you forgive him or would you do the same thing Lily did?
this isnāt hate Iām just curious :3
BTW I love snape!
I would forgive him.
I would know that our friendship is stronger than ever, and that one mistake isnāt worth throwing away years of friendship. Severus calling her a Mudblood in a moment of pure humiliation and distress once should not have killed the many years of love and friendship. Itās like she didnāt value their friendship at all. He deserves so much better than her!
Sure, Lily had every right to end her friendship with Severus... but like... damn. You would throw away YEARS of friendship just for something they said when they were being sexually assaulted and choked? Iāve taken worse from my friends, and my friends have taken worse from me. Maybe if Lily didnāt talk to him for a while then it would be fine. Itās perfectly understandable as to why sheād be upset.
Maybe Iād cut him off for a bit (like a month or two) but Iād forgive him in the end.
If you could change one thing about the Harry Potter books, what would it be? (No reason to limit yourself to 1 thing if you can think of multiple changes youād make) š¤
The Marauders, Lily, and Dumbledore.
Letās start:
Remus Lupin:
I wished they had taken him literally endangering studentsā lives more siriusly. I would like to change how much Remus manipulates Harry and the readers into thinking heās an innocent victim who was being treated badly by meanie Snivellus.
He endangered the entire school, he kept secrets from Dumbledore, he forgot to take his potion (which Severus brewed for him) and it led to him nearly eating three children.
Sirius Black:
I wish they had taken him nearly murdering someone, showing no remorse, thinking the victim deserves it just because they were curious, using his ābest friendā as a murder weapon, abusing his slave, and bullying Severus even as a full grown adult more siriusly.
I despise how J.K. Rowling tried to paint him as this super cool father-figure when he was really a manipulative, slave-kicking, child-abusing, reckless, immature lunatic who never grew up.
James Potter:
Sigh, I donāt even wanna get into detail cause I know itās gonna turn into a 100,000 word essay full of rage and hatred so Iāll just keep it short.
The dude sexually assaulted Sev, harassed Sev, bullied him mercilessly, choked him with soap (*cough* equivalent of waterboarding *cough*), tortured him, immobilised him, and showed no remorse.
And yet heās still seen as a saint, a hero, and a great person by society.
Why?
Oh... because he died for his family?
Oh boo hoo.
And the Hogwarts staff (specifically McGonagall and Hagrid) talk about him with so much affection, itās actually sickening. And the fact that he was made Head-boy even after the terrible shit he pulled is just proof the Hogwarts staff didnāt care about their studentsā safety.
I wish they couldāve taken the shit he pulled more Siriusly. Like holy shit, what he did was terrible, Sev was traumatised by that monster and Severus is surrounded by people who think heās an angel.
Iām glad J*mes P*tter died early.
Lily Evans:
I wish she was more caring to Severus. Every time I reread The Princeās Tale, I find myself disappointed. Sheās always interrupted him, and she doesnāt give a fuck about what he goes through.
I dislike her, and the fact that Severus dedicated his entire life to someone who thought they were better than him and didnāt value their friendship kills me.
I wish we couldāve seen more of badass Lily. I wanna see her give James a taste of his own medicine. I wanna see her defending her best friend. I wanna see her beat the living shit out of the Marauders (James and Sirus the hardest) and telling them to stay away from Severus. I wanna see Lily valuing their friendship and Sevās love for her. I wanna see Lily actually caring about Severus.
And I wish the books would stop portraying her as a saint. Sheās extremely flawed and very bitchy. Like, at least with James, we saw his fucked up side, and Harry acknowledges it. But with Lily, literally never! Sheās still seen as the angelic mother who sacrificed her life for her child, and itās annoying. And this fandom portraying her as a Mary Sue makes my blood boil.
Albus Dumbledore:
Oh boy, where do I even begin.
Aight, lemme just release some anger:
NYAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!š¹š¹š¹
Okay... *takes a deep breath* that felt nice. I apologise for going all Voldy on yāall.
I wish he had been more caring to Severus.
Severus is my biggest reason for hating Dumbledore.
He manipulated and used Severus when he was most vulnerable.
He let Severus almost get mauled to death by a fucking werewolf when he was just a kid and forced him to stay quiet and never punished his abusers. Dumbledore not only dismissed it but gave 0 attention to the possible trauma that gave Severus? Like holy shit, Sevy was literally fucking traumatised and Dumbledore did nothing!
Like I donāt care if yāall are in love with the Marauders and if yāall are a bunch of nasty apologists, no kid ever deserves that. He let Severus get bullied relentlessly by the kids he has a creepy ass obsession with for 7 fucking years with no punishments.
He let Severus be misguided and groomed by Lucius and the other Slytherins and into the Death Eaters. Hell, if Dumbles did shit and stopped the Marauders, Sev would 100% not have become a Death Eater.
Severus isnāt a saint but he never pretended to be the hero (even though he was -_-). He had one goal and he completed that by saving Harry. Severus was willing to die a villain, but Dumbles always has to play the hero.
āAnD wHaT uSe WoUlD tHaT bE tO aNyOnE?ā
Fuck him. Severus was literally shattered and suicidal and that bastard used him and manipulated him when he was at his most vulnerable! He could've been so much kinder to Severus instead of telling him that killing himself wouldn't be of use, treating him like a pawn and not giving him a shred of compassion when he was literally suicidal!
Like, I get it, he had to fight a war yadda yadda but let's not act like the old cunt was morally justified for everything he ever did and didn't have any flaws. I understand that manipulation is necessary in a war, but can we come back on what exactly makes Severus so easily manipulatedāand even more so, why he is at Dumbledore's mercy all his life?āDumbledore let him be cruelly, emotionally and physically abused for seven years until he was broken enough. He let him, intentionally or not, become a death eater.
The spying, the things Severus must have witnessed, the forced stay in the toxic place that broke him in the first place were what Dumbledore asked from manipulated him in believing was what he deserved. Hogwarts was practically Azkaban to Severus, and itās all because of the Marauders and Albus.
Albusās manipulation of Severus is predicated on Severus being emotionally unhealthy/unstable to execute said plan. Dumbles does not want Severus to get better, because a healthier Severus means a Severus not doing what heās told because of guilt he never let go of. Dumbledore manipulated Severus for like 18 years, thatās not okay.
āDumbledore manipulated Snape for the better, he did it for a good causeā
Many people say this. However, if he had taken better care of Severus... then would manipulation even become necessary?
Wouldnāt it be just as goodāif not betterāif Severus could clutch to the wonderful feeling of being loved and having his pain acknowledged (rather than dismissed), a bit like therapists and justāfamily/friendsādo?
If Albus had actually given a fuck about Severus, and showed that he actually cared for him and didnāt see him as just a puppet. Severus wouldāve been attached, he wouldāve stayed completely loyal to him.
This is why Severus was so loyal to Lily.
Because she was the light in his darkness, she taught Severus what it is to love, she showed him kindness and love. Thatās why he loved her, thatās why he was incredibly devoted to her.
If Albus had done the same, he 100% wouldāve earned Severusās loyalty, and he wouldnāt have to manipulate, deceive, and force Severus into it.
I wish he wouldāve done something about the Maraudersā bullying of Severus (and bullying in general).
There are a few more, Iāll just list them here:
I wish Hermione literally permanently scarring a girlās face for life and showing no remorse couldāve been taken more siriusly. (Siriusly, Hermione... what the hell?)
I wish Hermione would treat Ronald better, and I also wish her literally attacking him with birds couldāve been taken more siriusly.
I wish Fred and George literally selling date-rape drugs couldāve been taken more siriusly.
I wish Fred and Georgeās cruel pranks couldāve been taken more siriusly and I wish theyād get called out!
I wish everyone (in the series and the fandom) wouldāve taken everything Severus went through siriusly and not just dismissing it and thinking of him as petty. The poor man was traumatised and no one cared.
I wish Remus and Sirius wouldāve apologised and they all move on and become good friends. Think about it, Severus, Sirius, and Remus would be SUCH an iconic trio! And thereās something about that thought that gives me a fuzzy and happy feeling inside. Maybe itās cause Iāve also been bullied and Iād feel better if my bullies apologised to me.
I wish someone wouldāve called Sirius and Remus on their bullshit. I want someone to just confront them, to scream at them, to call them out on their bullying ways. Actually, if Harry was the one to call them out and yell at them, it would be a million times better! (Siriusly tho, that would be epic!)
I wish Ronald wouldnāt have been painted as a jerk for āabandoningā Hermione and Harry. He was right, Harry didnāt have a plan and they made no progress whatsoever, and Ronald was worried about his family.
I wish I could change how Percy was treated throughout the series. His family was terrible to him (except Molly). Iāve already explained a lot in my answer to an ask a while ago, right here.
I wish people would take McGonagallās treatment of students (especially Neville) more siriusly. They call Severus a child abuser when this woman exists.š¤¦āāļø
I honestly wish Sirius Black was a villain. He would be extremely badass and I think Iād love him!
I wish Draco and Hermione ended up together (still love Romione tho)!
Thereās more but Iāll stop here. I didnāt expect this to be so long, my apologies!
Also, Iām glad you told me that thereās no reason to limit myself to only one, cause god knows I can never pick one. Itās either 1000 reasons, or no reasons at all. Thereās no in between.š
Have a lovely day!ā¤ļø
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