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,, source? Thoughts?

Source: The Condendings of Horus and Seth, recorded in the Chester Beatty Papyrus I (held in Oxford) c.1147 BC (Ramesses V - New Kingdom). There is an older Middle Kingdom version from Lahun, but it is extremely fragmentary. The one I'm listing is our first complete version dating to the Pharaonic period, and there are other much later versions too.

Thoughts: Girl help, they'd Hatshepsut'd the Contendings by introducing additional homophobia.

It's hard to know where to begin here because...wow...mhmm...that sure is...a version of reality. This is the unfortunate thing of what happens when people think they know and can analyse an ancient text based on simply reading it with no cultural context and often not actually having read the text at all, which this person very clearly hasn't.

You can read a 1931 translation by A.H.Gardiner here (starts on page 8), but please be aware that it's quite an old one. It's still good, just terms and language (particularly describing Seth, Horus, and the Lettuce) may be old fashioned/offensive. The version I'm using is much newer (W.K.Simpson 2003 - The Literature of Ancient Egypt, Yale University Press, 91-103) but I cannot reasonably copy out the whole translation from the book (that's copyright infringement). I will be quoting it, though, so you can compare the two.

So, let's bulletpoint this under a cut before I cry, and a reminder that when I as an English person say 'Let's look at this...' I culturally mean 'join me in analysing this' and not the US cultural meaning of 'fuck you I think you're an idiot' that I get tripped up by and called a bitch about so often.

Seth is Horus' uncle. That's correct.

'And also much older than him' Why this addition was relevant I don't know. I suppose it adds to the 'problematic taboo' of what they're about to relate to their audience. Salaciousness sells. But 'much older' uhh...they're gods. What year were any of them born? What are their ages? Time doesn't really have a meaning when it comes to the Egyptian gods, nor do ages. They've both existed for millennia by this point because wibbly wobbly timey wimey. The main thing is that they're both adults as Horus does not start fighting his uncle until he is of age.

'Horus always asks his mum for advice, it tells (sic) a lot lol' If you think 'asking a parent for help' is a sign you are very young, you're about 20 yourself and older adults ask their parents about things all the time. It doesn't prove shit.

I mean Horus asks his mother for advice several times in this story, but it takes place over multiple years because this fight lasts for 70 years. Oh no! He asks him goddess mother, and sister of the guy he's fighting for help. Wow. Much mummy's boy.

There's a whole load of latent homophobia in the way queer aspects of this tale are presented in the two screenshots, which uhh...so progressive of them. It should not take my cishet ass to point that out.

DRINK

Anyway, Horus beheads his mother after a fight because she accidentally stabbed him while he's a hippo. He then carries her head up a mountain and chucks it off the top of it before going to sleep up there (Thoth fetches the head and fixes Isis). It's a typical relationship between gods (they always do this) but it's not the relationship that's presented in the screenshots.

Translation (Simpson, 2003: 97-98):

Thereupon Seth became terribly enraged. And so the Ennead said to Seth, "Why have you become so enraged? Isn't it in accordance with what Atum, Lord of the Two Lands, the Heliopolitan, and Pre-Harakhti have said that action should be taken?" Then the White Crown was placed upon the head of Horus, son of Isis. Seth, being angry, let out a loud cry before the face of this Ennead, saying, "Is the office being awarded to my young brother even while I, who am his elder brother, am still about?" Then he took an oath as follows, "The White Crown shall be removed from the head of Horus, son of Isis, and he shall be thrown into the water so that I can contend with him for the office of Ruler." Pre-Harakhti acquiesced. Thereupon Seth said to Horus, "Come, let's both transform ourselves into hippopotamuses and submerge in / the deep waters in the midst of the sea. Now as for the one who shall emerge within the span of three whole months, the office shall not be awarded him." Then they both submerged. And so Isis sat down and wept, saying, "Seth has killed Horus, my son!" Then she fetched a skein of yarn. She fashioned a line, took a deben-weight's (worth) of copper, cast it into a harpoon, tied the line to it, and hurled it into the water at the spot where Horus and Seth had submerged, Then the barb bit into the body of her son Horus. So Horus let out a loud cry, "Help me, mother Isis, my mother! Appeal to your barb to let go of me! I am Horus, son of Isis!" Thereupon Isis let out a loud cry and told (her) barb, "Let go of him! See; that's my son Horus, my child." So her barb let go of him. Then she hurled it back again into the water, and it bit into the body of Seth. So Seth let out a loud cry, saying, "What have I done against you, my sister Isis? Appeal to your barb to let go of me! I am your maternal brother, Isis." Then she felt very compassionate toward him. Thereupon Seth called to her, saying, "Do you love the stranger even more than (your) maternal brother Seth?" So Isis appealed to her barb, saying, "Let go of him! See, it's Isis's maternal brother whom you have bitten into." Then the barb let go of him. Horus, son of Isis, became furious at his mother Isis and came out with his face as fierce as an Upper Egyptian panther's, holding his cleaver of sixteen deben-weight in his hand. He removed the head of his mother Isis, put it in his arms, and ascended the mountain. Then Isis ?transformed herself into a statue of flint which had no head. Pre-Harakhti said to Thoth, "What is she who has come having no head?" So Thoth told Pre-Harakhi, "My good lord, that's Isis the Great, the God's Mother, whose head Horus, her son, has removed." Thereupon / Pre-Harakhti let out a loud cry and said to the Ennead, "Let's go and inflict severe punishment upon him." Then the Ennead ascended those mountains in order to search for Horus, son of Isis.'

Such affection between the pair. Relationship is just fine...I swear

Just before this they're mad at Horus and tell him his breath smells bad: 'Then the Universal Lord became furious at Horus and told him, "You are despicable in your person, and this office is too much for you, you lad, the odour of whose mouth is bad."' (Simpson, 2003: 94) Tbh I'm including this for no other reason than that it's funny.

DRINK

'In the well known story...' This is where it starts to go off the rails really hard. It is not a story about Seth wanting to 'possess Horus carnally'. This is how I know this person has never even looked at the Contendings. They don't know what they're talking about. The infamous 'lettuce' incident is but a tiny fraction of the overall story in which Horus and Seth fight for the right to the throne of Egypt. They are constantly doing different challenges to try to prove that they are worthy of the throne. Seth wins some, Horus wins others, it's generally a tie.

This is then when the 'picnic' shows up and what the above screenshot is talking about.

As Horus is asleep on the mountain top, Seth shows up and gouges his eyes out. He then goes back to the Ennead and says 'Don't know where Horus is' Of course this is a lie. Hathor finds Horus and restores his sight.

Relevant translation (Simpson, 2003: 98-99):

'Now as for Horus, he was lying under a shenusha-tree in the oasis land. Seth found him, seized hold of him, threw him down upon his back on the mountain, removed his two eyes from their sockets, and buried them on the mountain so as to illumine the earth. His two eyeballs became two bulbs / which grew into lotuses. Seth came away and told Pre-Harakhti falsely, I didn't find Horus," although he had found him. Then Hathor, Mistress of the Southern Sycamore, set out, and she found Horus lying weeping in the desert. She captured a gazelle and milked it. She said to Horus, "Open your eyes that I may put this milk in." So he opened his eyes and she put the milk in, putting (some) in the right one and putting (some) in the left one. She told him, "Open your eyes!" He opened his eyes, and she looked at them; she found that they were healed.'

You'll note that it's both eyes taken rather than one, and Hathor who heals him rather than Thoth, as he does in a previous version. Gardiner (1931: 21) in his notes on this passage cannot tell whether this is a change from the earlier myth, as happens with a lot of Egyptian stories depending on which gods are in favour in any given century) or whether this is entirely made up for this particular myth. Myths in Ancient Egypt are both complimentary and contradictory. You get used to it pretty quick, which is why saying 'this is the one true version' is a crock of shit when it comes to translation and interpretation.

The Ennead, sick of both Horus and Seth's incessant fighting by this point, summon them both and tell them to make up and put the matter to rest. So Seth invites Horus to his home to eat, drink, and make peace.

This is where we get to the point where the user is referring to 'reaping masculinity' and 'being the loved on in a gay relationship was "feminine" in Ancient Egypt' and uhhh...cite your sources babe.

The 'femininity' part comes from much later sources and is a Greek and Roman cultural way of looking at same sex relations. It should not be applied to the Egyptians because they do not conceive of sexuality this way, nor view it as a defining trait of a person. This is why you find it's not really recorded in Egyptian sources. (Parkinson, 1995)

However, Parkinson (1995, 2008) does note that those who 'receive' are portrayed as 'back turners' and this is derogatory. It is an aspect of masculinity, but it's not about 'being feminine' it's about 'being a coward.' So it's 'unmanning' but more in the sense of 'I have made you a cringefail loser' and not 'lmao you're a girl now'. It's important when dealing with historical homophobic attitudes towards same-sex relationships that we get the flavour of homophobia correct. Otherwise you're just perpetuating more homophobia a little to the left.

Let's look at Simpson's (2003: 99) translation:

'Now afterward at evening time, bed was prepared for them, and together they lay down. During the night Seth caused his phallus to become stiff and inserted it between Horus's thighs. Horus then placed his hands between his thighs and caught Seth's semen.'

That's it, that's the whole section that the person described as 'Seth wanting to carnally possess Horus and make him into a woman'. There's no Horus 'escaping by making Seth drunk', it doesn't happen and it's not the night before Horus' coronation. Anyone else think that the person may have Very Much Overstated The Whole Situation? You too? Oh good. We're on the same page then. Moving on.

DRINK

Horus does return to Isis for help afterwards, and I don't see why this is an issue because 'help my uncle, your brother, and murderer of Osiris, just used intercrural sex to leave his semen on me to position me as a coward and thus unworthy of the throne of Egypt' is a pretty big problem that you'd want advice with.

Isis...freaks out. To make sure no semen is on Horus, she does in fact cut his hands off and throws them in the Nile before making Horus new ones. (This is possible because there's a creation myth where Khnum the potter makes all things out of clay, so just fashioning new hands is a piece of cake, especially for a goddess.

Here's the relevant translation (Simpson, 2003: 99):

'Then Horus / went to tell his mother Isis, "Help me, Isis, my mother, come and see what Seth has done to me." And he opened his hands and let her see Seth's semen. She let out a loud cry, took up her knife, cut off his hands, threw them into the water, and restored for him hands that were equivalent.'

Again, a very small part of the story.

The OP then contradicts themselves by saying Isis is a wise woman to go to after implying Horus was a mummy's boy for going to his mum for help after his uncle raped him. I would fight this person with my bare hands. A fish doesn't eat it, but a fish does eat Osiris' penis when Seth dismembers him (if you read the Ptolemaic version of the myth. Earlier versions just have it get lost.)

Now we get to the lettuce incident, which goes a little differently to how the OP writes about it. Here's Simpson's (2003: 99) translation:

'Then she got some fragrant ointment and applied it to Horus's phallus. She caused it to become stiff and inserted it into a pot, and he caused his semen to flow down into it. Isis at morning time went carrying Horus's semen to the garden of Seth, and she said to Seth's gardener, "What sort of vegetable / does Seth eat here in your company?" And the gardener answered her, "He doesn't eat any vegetable here in my company except lettuce." And Isis put Horus's semen on it. Seth returned according to his daily habit and ate the lettuce, which he regularly ate. Thereupon he became pregnant with Horus's semen.'

idk about you but 'mum jacking son off into a pot and then using it as salad dressing' isn't my idea of fun. The reason it's lettuce and not any other vegetable is because the lettuce found in Egypt at this time is a type of Romaine which has a thick sap that is extremely reminiscent of semen. That's why that lettuce is associated with the fertility god Min, and why Seth likes to eat it; i.e. to project his virility and strength. In the Ptolemaic version, this is presented to him at a picnic that Horus throws in turn for the meal at Seth's house.

I should also note at this point that 'thereupon he became pregnant with Horus's semen' is not literal. I've seen far too many people take it as a literal statement, which is what you get when you fuck about and find out with texts that you don't also look into the cultural background of. jwr 'to become pregnant' is the literal word they use but the Egyptians also used wrD 'to be weary' as an alternate way of saying 'death' so we should always be on the lookout for 'words being used to mean something else.' In this case, it's more 'it is inside his belly' but with not a full understanding of how pregnancy happens, 'baby grows in stomach' knowledge, and 'semen must go in a hole for semen to be in body because baby comes from semen going in hole to grow in belly' you can understand where 'it's in his stomach' becomes 'he got pregnant'. It's literally just telling you it's in his system.

So we get to 'the next day' where Seth thinks his semen is on Horus's thighs, thus making him a coward and not fit to be king, and Horus knows his semen is in Seth's stomach. The Ennead assembles and Seth proclaims (Simpson, 2003: 99):

'So Seth went to tell / Horus, "Come, let's go that I may contend with you in court." Horus said to him, "I'll do so; yes, I'll do so, I'll do so." Then they both went to court and stood in the presence of the Great Ennead. They were told, "Speak for yourselves!" Then Seth said, "Let me be awarded the office of Ruler, I.p.h., for as to Horus, the one who is standing (at law), I have performed a man's work against him." The Ennead then let out a loud cry, and they spewed and spat at Horus's face.'

This is that homophobia but culturally Egyptian this time. Horus is seen as a coward and emasculated by that cravenness. Still, he is not 'a woman' but he has removed his masculinity. He is 'other'. The Egyptian concept of masculinity has many layers, and for a god it's even worse. That's an important distinction to make, and I'll refer people to Parkinson (1995, 2008) for more information. I just want to point out that the OP has misunderstood and extrapolated based on outdated ideas. It's similar to the Greek idea of intercrural sex, and how not putting it in doesn't 'unman' a person, but also slightly to the left. Complicated is a good word for it.

Horus laughs at this. Genuinely, the text says Horus laughs. He then says 'that's bullshit, lets call Seth's semen and see where it is, and then you can try calling mine. The answer might surprise you.' and so they do, and Seth's semen calls from where it was cast into the Nile. They call Horus's semen and it calls from inside Seth.

'"Let Seth's semen be summoned that we may see from where it answers, and my own be summoned so that we may see it from where it answers." Then Thoth, lord of script and scribe of truth for the Ennead, laid his hand on Horus's shoulder and said, "Come out, you semen of Seth!" And it answered him from the water in the interior of the 'marsh'!? Then Thoth laid his hand on Seth's shoulder and said, "Come out, you semen of Horus!" It said to him, "Where shall I come from?" Thoth said to it, "Come / out from his ear." Thereupon it said to him, "Am I, who am divine fluid, to come out merely from his ear?" Then Thoth said to it, "Come out from the top of his head." And it emerged as a golden solar disk upon Seth's head.' (Simpson, 2003: 100)

Yes, Horus's semen has such an inflated sense of importance that it refused to come out of an ear, and instead out of a symbol of divinity. I hate that op refers to it as 'juice' because bestie you said 'semen' on the part, just say it again. 'Juice,' my ass.

Seth does become enraged, but he isn't made fun of, nor does he 'escape' and Horus is immediately crowned. As I said before, this is a long running dispute and it's why it's called 'the Contendings' (plural) of Horus and Seth.

What actually happens is Seth becomes upset and tries to grab the semen, but Thoth snatches it and puts it as a crown on his own head. Why he does this I don't know, but it's not mentioned again. The actual lines are:

'Seth became exceedingly furious and extended his hand to seize the golden solar disk, but Thoth took it away / from him and placed It as a crown upon his (own) head. Then the Ennead said, "Horus is right; Seth is wrong." Seth became exceedingly furious and let out a loud cry when they said, "Horus is right; Seth is wrong." And so Seth took a great oath by god as follows, "He shall not be awarded the office until he has been dismissed outside with me and we build for ourselves some ships of stone and race each other. Now as for the one who prevails over his rival, / he shall be awarded the office of Ruler, l.p.h."' (Simpson, 2003: 100).

The semen incident, overall, isn't that big of a deal in the long run. It's over very quickly and neither Horus nor Seth suffer any long term consequences.

So the finale is 'okay Horus: 5, Seth: 5, we need something to break the tie between them' and Seth demands a boat race. But he says that both boats must be made of stone. On the day of the race, Seth's boat sinks immediately, but Horus's sails, thus winning the race. Seth is angered, turns into a hippo and bashes Horus's boat showing that it was actually made of barley fibre and disguised to look like stone. Horus cheated just as Seth did with the semen.

So they write to Osiris in the underworld because this has gone on for 70 years and everyone is sick of it. Osiris writes back 'umm, well since I'm dead, my son should inherit rather than my brother' and thus Horus is crowned king and Seth is given a position as his advisor.

Now I know that a lot of you will be like 'but Seth evil???1111!!!???' and I'm here to tell you that no he's not. Cut that shit out. Seth is a chaos god and Horus is calm/steady. In Egyptian mythology, you need chaos to balance out the calm. There must be both. Seth isn't considered evil within Egyptian mythology, just a little unpredictable, which is why the other gods don't punish or humiliate him for the Contendings but recognise his wisdom and cunning just as they did with Horus. They effectively equally matched, it's just Horus gets the job by birthright. That's it, that's the story.

So the OP's comments are something that have been waved over the truth to get a flavour of it, the La Croix of truth as it were, and are horseshit. As soon as the internet found out that Horus and Seth had sex they became blinded by 'lmaooo it's GAY™ #weknew #cunty' and rational thought fled the building. Genuinely, it's frustrating how often that happens. You can do a proper historical, cultural, and even queer reading of this text, but the above OP wasn't it.

Sources:

Gardiner, A.H. 1931. The Library of A. Chester Beatty: Description of a Hieratic Papyrus, with a Mythological Story, Love Songs, and Other Miscellaneous texts. Oxford; OUP. (linked above)

Parkinson, R. 1995. "Homosexual" desire and Middle Kingdom literature. Journal of Egyptian Archaeology 81, pp. 57 - 76. 2008. Boasting about hardness: Constructions of Middle Kingdom masculinity. In Sex and gender in ancient Egypt: 'Don your wig for a joyful hour', ed. Carolyn Graves-Brown, pp. 115 - 142. Swansea: Classical Press of Wales.

Wilkinson, W.K. 2003. The Literature of Ancient Egypt: An Anthology of Stories, Instructions, Stelae, Autobiographies, and Poetry. New Haven and London. Yale University Press.

oh and uhh

DRINK

I'm Lottie. This has taken me four hours and hasn't been Milo Rossi. Fucking googledebunk that shit. Bye.

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