Untitled

[otnesse]

List of known aliases for CyberCubed/CyberSai/Precita:

*The Fighting Misty

*Gliscor'd

*Breloom'd *Vanderbilt

*Decidueye29

*Shiny Muk

*Scott85

*Scottys8d

*Scott-ys8t

*MetroidEyed

*Morizan

*Salools

*FulgoreX

*Rizenaha

*Katgravrush

*Michael Lubow

[wingletblackbird]

Love ‘em and Leave ‘em

Anakin: Falls in love with Padme when he’s assigned to protect her. Fandom: “He’s so selfish! Their relationship is so inappropriate and it stops him doing his job!”

Obi Wan: Hooked up with Satine as a teenager when on assignment on Mandalore and probably got her pregnant Fandom: “Obitine are the best couple in Star Wars and its so wonderful he has a son!”

This is a quote from one of @tragicfantasy-girl’s posts. It made me laugh, but I also wanted to point at the serious side of this too. There is a very important contrast here and I’ve been meaning to talk about this for awhile.

The Jedi Order forbids marriages but allows hook-ups. This is not a good thing. I I hope I don’t need to explain why “love ‘em and leave ‘em” should not be considered the gold standard for relationships. (Then again, the Jedi don’t approve of committed relationships so that’s fine to them, but it’s certainly not healthy.)

The above understanding also means that, while a Jedi cannot make a commitment to anyone, they can theoretically use them. In the worst cases, it can encourage objectification and/or abandonment in the interest of that they call “non-attachment.” And by abandonment, I don’t just mean their partner.

I think we see this very clearly in the contrast between Anakin and Padme and Obi-Wan and Satine. Anakin is undeniably attracted to Padme, and if physical attraction were all that mattered to either of them, that’s fine.

Anakin, however, for all his faults, is not interested in that. He respects Padme. We see this all throughout AotC. He honors her boundaries. He demonstrates admiration for her and the work she’s done. He supports her. He wants so much more than just to satisfy his lust.

Later, in RotS, when Padme tells Anakin she is pregnant, he supports her immediately. Scandal or no scandal, he won’t abandon her. He is going to be there for her and the baby no matter what. He seriously steps up where many men fail to. It’s quite admirable, whatever the Jedi say. There’s many a woman in a crisis pregnancy who has not had nearly so much support.

In comparison, we have Obi-Wan who honors the Jedi Code. He hooks up with Satine on a mission. I grant he seems to care about her, but the Jedi way means he will leave her heart-broken. Every relationship Obi-Wan enters into, he enters into knowing it will end. He’ll just abandon them. Where emotions are involved, and they tend to get involved, that’s no kindness.

And the implication is that Korkie is his son. Let’s assume he is. Does Satine ever try to contact Obi-Wan about this? Maybe she does. Even if she did, I doubt the message would ever reach him. People cannot simply contact the Jedi Order. Is she going to petition the Senate about her crisis pregnancy? Yeah, right. So, now she’s alone and pregnant. 

Then, even if he did know, what’s Obi-Wan going to do? If Korkie’s Force-Sensitive, he’ll just go to the Temple. And if he’s not, is a Jedi going to called up for child-support? Somehow I doubt it. How do you even begin to get a Jedi on the hook for that? See above about petitioning the Senate. How much do Jedi even make anyway? Probably just a teeny monthly stipend, if that. The Order provides for them after all. Is the Order going to provide for all the potential illegitimate children out there? Somehow, I doubt it, unless they have the Force and induct them into the Order.

And in the unlikely event that Obi-Wan both knows about his son and has to pay child support, Obi-Wan’s not going to visit that child. He won’t do more than maybe send one letter, if that, because attachment, especially to one’s biological family, is forbidden. Anakin can’t even visit or contact his mother in slavery. There’s no way Obi-Wan’s visiting his kid he’s never met who’s being raised in a decent environment. In fact, he doesn’t. And that’s the Jedi way. 

And if that’s the Jedi way, it is wrong. That is deeply, deeply messed up. 

And you know what else? The Force does seem to have a hereditary element to it. It would not surprise me if the Order promotes casual sex knowing that there will be unintended pregnancies, because that just means more Force-Sensitive kids for them. It’s not like having the Force is not significantly rare after all. They could use the numbers.

tl;dr It seems sad (and wrong) to me that a loving and committed relationship where people raise their kids together is seen as dangerous-you-are-headed-to-the-Dark-Side. But loving and leaving someone, abandoning your kids, and forsaking commitment/responsibility, especially if they don’t have the Force is noble-good-light-side. There is something very wrong with that picture. Even more so when the former is forbidden, and the latter is encouraged.

[fanfic-lover-girl]

And what about the implications for FEMALE Jedi? I’m guessing abortions abound like what nuns in the Catholic church used to do back in the day.

[otnesse]

I'm pretty sure the Catechism in the Catholic Church specifically FORBADE abortions even back then, especially for nuns. More likely than not, they put the kid into adoption.

That said, definitely agreed regarding the implications for the female Jedi (and unlike the Catholic Church, the Jedi have zero respect for their OWN code, or indeed ANY absolute standards per what Obi-Wan himself said TWICE).

[prokopetz]

Whenever I talk about what the Internet was like in the mid 1990s I invariably get a bunch of folks responding "yes, I too remember the 90s", then proceeding to describe the Internet circa 2005 – and like, it makes sense that this would happen, because relatively few people were actually online in the 1990s, but it's striking how many folks just straight up misremember the mid 2000s as "the 90s".

[otnesse]

I know I was using the internet during the 1990s, around 1996-1998, definitely, and this was back when dialup was still being used (oh, and I remember going to a few Zelda fansites and accessing toy websites as well).

[wingletblackbird]

Love ‘em and Leave ‘em

Anakin: Falls in love with Padme when he’s assigned to protect her. Fandom: “He’s so selfish! Their relationship is so inappropriate and it stops him doing his job!”

Obi Wan: Hooked up with Satine as a teenager when on assignment on Mandalore and probably got her pregnant Fandom: “Obitine are the best couple in Star Wars and its so wonderful he has a son!”

This is a quote from one of @tragicfantasy-girl’s posts. It made me laugh, but I also wanted to point at the serious side of this too. There is a very important contrast here and I’ve been meaning to talk about this for awhile.

The Jedi Order forbids marriages but allows hook-ups. This is not a good thing. I I hope I don’t need to explain why “love ‘em and leave ‘em” should not be considered the gold standard for relationships. (Then again, the Jedi don’t approve of committed relationships so that’s fine to them, but it’s certainly not healthy.)

The above understanding also means that, while a Jedi cannot make a commitment to anyone, they can theoretically use them. In the worst cases, it can encourage objectification and/or abandonment in the interest of that they call “non-attachment.” And by abandonment, I don’t just mean their partner.

I think we see this very clearly in the contrast between Anakin and Padme and Obi-Wan and Satine. Anakin is undeniably attracted to Padme, and if physical attraction were all that mattered to either of them, that’s fine.

Anakin, however, for all his faults, is not interested in that. He respects Padme. We see this all throughout AotC. He honors her boundaries. He demonstrates admiration for her and the work she’s done. He supports her. He wants so much more than just to satisfy his lust.

Later, in RotS, when Padme tells Anakin she is pregnant, he supports her immediately. Scandal or no scandal, he won’t abandon her. He is going to be there for her and the baby no matter what. He seriously steps up where many men fail to. It’s quite admirable, whatever the Jedi say. There’s many a woman in a crisis pregnancy who has not had nearly so much support.

In comparison, we have Obi-Wan who honors the Jedi Code. He hooks up with Satine on a mission. I grant he seems to care about her, but the Jedi way means he will leave her heart-broken. Every relationship Obi-Wan enters into, he enters into knowing it will end. He’ll just abandon them. Where emotions are involved, and they tend to get involved, that’s no kindness.

And the implication is that Korkie is his son. Let’s assume he is. Does Satine ever try to contact Obi-Wan about this? Maybe she does. Even if she did, I doubt the message would ever reach him. People cannot simply contact the Jedi Order. Is she going to petition the Senate about her crisis pregnancy? Yeah, right. So, now she’s alone and pregnant. 

Then, even if he did know, what’s Obi-Wan going to do? If Korkie’s Force-Sensitive, he’ll just go to the Temple. And if he’s not, is a Jedi going to called up for child-support? Somehow I doubt it. How do you even begin to get a Jedi on the hook for that? See above about petitioning the Senate. How much do Jedi even make anyway? Probably just a teeny monthly stipend, if that. The Order provides for them after all. Is the Order going to provide for all the potential illegitimate children out there? Somehow, I doubt it, unless they have the Force and induct them into the Order.

And in the unlikely event that Obi-Wan both knows about his son and has to pay child support, Obi-Wan’s not going to visit that child. He won’t do more than maybe send one letter, if that, because attachment, especially to one’s biological family, is forbidden. Anakin can’t even visit or contact his mother in slavery. There’s no way Obi-Wan’s visiting his kid he’s never met who’s being raised in a decent environment. In fact, he doesn’t. And that’s the Jedi way. 

And if that’s the Jedi way, it is wrong. That is deeply, deeply messed up. 

And you know what else? The Force does seem to have a hereditary element to it. It would not surprise me if the Order promotes casual sex knowing that there will be unintended pregnancies, because that just means more Force-Sensitive kids for them. It’s not like having the Force is not significantly rare after all. They could use the numbers.

tl;dr It seems sad (and wrong) to me that a loving and committed relationship where people raise their kids together is seen as dangerous-you-are-headed-to-the-Dark-Side. But loving and leaving someone, abandoning your kids, and forsaking commitment/responsibility, especially if they don’t have the Force is noble-good-light-side. There is something very wrong with that picture. Even more so when the former is forbidden, and the latter is encouraged.

[allronix]

Okay. Got some coffee. Got some downtime. Let’s roll.

First off, Lucas can be a big case of “open mouth, insert whole leg” and/or Rowling-grade cringe. Great example? Going on record saying Indiana Jones was schtupping an eleven-year-old girl. Yes. He actually said that. Ew. I’ll wait for y’all to get the brain bleach. I kinda treat his “Jedi can have sex, but not attachment” in the same “What in the HELL, dude?!” way.

The whole concept was one that some of the harsh critics of the franchise, such as David Brin (writer of the Uplift series and The Postman) and Athena Andreadis breathed fire on. Andreadis pointed out how overwhelmingly male the film’s Jedi were (the female Jedi were background set pieces in the films and didn’t get speaking roles, aside from Jocasta Nu being the prototypical clueless old lady librarian), and pointed out that allowing sexual release (with prostitutes and other casual liaisons) but not allowing marriage or long term relationships was a common way to keep young men emotionally stunted and needy enough to become unquestioning cannon fodder for the old men running things. 

Brin caustically pointed out that the whole “sorry, babe, can’t get attached,” utterly reeks of immature male fantasy where someone can sleep around with impunity, and has a handy reason to rebuff any requests for more substantial commitment. As far as the inevitable illegitimate children such a “hit it and quit it” policy would leave? Lucas probably didn’t think it through. He’s a cisgender, heterosexual and sexually conservative guy and a product of the mid-century where the whole “girl of the week” trope was more acceptable.And, well…see the statement about Indiana Jones and “What Were You THINKING?!”

To the apologists? While casual sex isn’t taboo under Buddhism, sexual promiscuity is considered a form of abuse.

Keep reading

[tragicfantasy-girl-deactivated2]

Oh, Manwë the Elder King, I just looked at that article you referenced about Indiana Jones.. and. Ugh. Ugh: this is every single shade of gross.

Lucas actually threw around the idea of Indiana Jones having sex with a girl under 15 because if she was any older it “wouldn’t be interesting… ”

Indiana Jones was an abusive creep (but he was almost much worse)

Watching movies you loved as a child is a fascinating way to learn about what you cared about back then, versus what catches your attention

This…. actually goes a long way towards explaining some of the content relating to sex and marriage in not just the movies, but the Clone Wars series. (I am convinced Filoni’s attitudes are no better, and could even be worse. )

Hence:

Jedi can sleep around as much as they want, as long as they don’t become “attached”

Which by extension means there is nothing wrong with them paying for sex, an inherently exploitative action.

Presumably, male Jedi are not required to take responsibility for any illegitimate offspring they sire, although Lucas never talked about that it can reasonably be inferred from his statements.

All it all we have a *very* one-sided view of relationships which gives the Jedi most of the power yet places none of the responsibility on their shoulders.

…and they tell us Anidala is a fundamentally bad and abusive relationship. On that matter, many in SW fandom uphold Obitine to be a counterbalance, and therefore a model “healthy” relationship (looking at *you* @hannagoldworthy) - yet everything you say refutes that.

Their “relationship” is based entirely on the encounter they had as teenagers - which presumably involved Kenobi having sex with the girl he was supposed to be assigned to gaurd. Bear in mind that JAs often loudly object to Anakin romancing Padme when he was supposed to be protecting her, even though their relationship was entirely chaste and they were both adults. Yet they have no problem with Kenobi having engaged in such behaviour.

Further, Kenobi’s youthful dalliance ended with him being basically ordered by Yoda to break things off with her. He says as much to Anakin in Season 6 of the Clone Wars. So when push came to shove, he chose the Order over her.

Now, in the previous Season and a couple of times before that we had a couple of these trying -to -be -epic romance moments in which Kenobi says he would have left the Jedi if only she’d asked him to- but I don’t buy it for an instant. He had to make that choice, and we *know* what he chose. Besides, there are plenty of lines in the series which suggest Kenobi doesn’t respect Satine’s beliefs or wishes: even to the point that he makes fun of her beliefs- a few times.

Also, that whole idea places the responsibility entirely on the shoulders of the woman. If Kenobi truly loved Satine, she would not have had to *ask* him. He would have chosen her of his own free will. As the above suggests, we have every reason to believe he would not have taken her wishes into account when faced with such an important decision.

Now for the controversial part, and the part which makes my personal troll scream in outrage… I believe Satine was always doomed because she was only ever created for Obi Wan, as his “love interest” and was always going to be killed off to give him “man pain”.

You see this reflected a lot in fandom. They speak of Satine, if at all, only at her death, and not as a person of inherent value who lost her life- but because of how much sad-sads her death caused to a man. Her dying is just counted to the tally of his “infinite sadness” which by turn exists entirely to make him look good.

[otnesse]

I heard about what Lucas suggested with Indiana Jones and Marion Ravenwood’s past (nearly made him a pedophilic creep, and he thought THAT would have been something the audience would have been entertained by?! As much as I’m not fond of Spielberg after some of his antics especially lately, at least he had enough humanity to be against the idea back then. And quite frankly, I REALLY don’t want to know what must have happened in Marion’s past before meeting Indy if she was already promiscuous as a 12 year old in that nixed idea, since that would imply she was sexually abused…). Makes me wonder why the heck God didn’t obliterate Indiana during that climax, closed eyes or not (since God and his son Jesus made it VERY clear they don’t support it at all. That ending literally traumatized me to such an extent that I have an extremely WARPED sense of God as a result.). And I thought the Jedi had protagonist-centered morality…

And as much as I respect Anidala as a ship and am very much willing to go through fire to defend it, I do still have one gripe about it, and it’s less the ship itself and more certain… directing choices Lucas made in TPM. I know canonically Padme and Anakin were meant to be four years apart in age, but due to Lucas deciding to cast Natalie Portman and Jake Lloyd as Padme and Anakin, respectively (who at the time of the films were 18 and 10, respectively), it ended up coming a bit TOO close to resembling a May-December romance/cougar relationship (and I suspect THAT directing decision was most likely a holdover from that idea Lucas had for Raiders). It would have been a bit more palatable to have an actual 14 year old girl play Padme at that time while saving Natalie Portman for AOTC. Or, if they absolutely MUST have Portman play Padme during that time, at least doll her up to plausibly look 14 (you know, like how they dolled up Moaning Myrtle’s actress so she’d plausibly look like a middle schooler when she was actually in her thirties at the time she played her in The Chamber of Secrets).

And yeah, definitely agree with you that what Lucas stated about sexual relationships, especially for Jedi, was extremely bad and sickening. This is more like the crap that Jean-Paul Sartre and Simone de Beauvoir cooked up. Seriously, Anidala’s abusive? If anything, that was probably one of the healthiest relationships in Star Wars.

[fantasy-land-and-ocean]

Natalie Portman was 16 when filming The Phantom Menace…and 14 when she was cast, she was 18 when the film was released …..A little research wouldn’t hurt…..

[otnesse]

Another user pointed this out and I took that correction into consideration.

[altocat]

And then he later surrenders all his "fond memories" to the Lifestream years later.

God, he has no right to make me THIS upset on a daily basis 😭

[otnesse]

Either that, or Jenova did that for him. Personally, I'm not entirely sure he surrendered ALL of those memories considering the existence of Kadaj, Loz, and Yazoo in the first place.

[rosy-crow]

Important

[otnesse]

Don't know if it's before Sephiroth went mad or after, and quite frankly, I don't care: GO SEPHIROTH!! Stop that mad clown!

[rosy-crow]

They are talking about Kadaj here.

I have more to say about this whole episode later on because I finally watched it all the way through, but ouch. This whole scene was perfect for explaining Kadaj. It was also perfect for explaining the core issue for Sephiroth’s character in general. History repeated itself here.

Kadaj and Sephiroth, children born with the almost continuously infantile desire for reunion with a mother they never met. And that wish would never come true for either.

Aerith is all of us ;-;

[otnesse]

Makes Aerith's action to Kadaj in Advent Children look more heartwarming as a result.

[rosy-crow]

One of my fav Dissidia Opera Omnia moments is when Rufus tries to tell the crazy nihilist clown god of destruction that he’s wrong because there is always business strategy and good PR and Kefka is legitimately like “what the fuck are you talking about”

Oh and, this too

That gosh darn stupid Sephiroth always ruining things

[otnesse]

You know, I kind of wish Sephiroth remained good, because THIS definitely would have Sephiroth actually BEING a hero if he stopped Kefka there.

And yeah, Rufus? The Returners couldn't even convince Kefka to change his tune by citing their own personal means of finding happiness, it's definitely unlikely company PR would do the same for him either (though he took the PR bit surprisingly well compared to the Returners' personal examples, considering his reaction to Rufus was a mere "what are you talking about?" rather than deciding to just blow up the planet in rage over their examples).

[mocha-lattes27]

If you can take the time to understand Sephiroth's actions, you can understand the choices of Lucrecia Crescent. You can't coddle and go "Oh. Poor baby boy Sephiroth" and then in the same sitting entirely blame Lucrecia for what happened to him. Yes, she is to blame—TO AN EXTENT—but the overall blame is on Hojo and Shinra's shoulders.

You can't catch onto the subtle hints that Sephiroth was abused (I'm referring to before Ever Crisis was out), and then ignore the OBVIOUS hints that Lucrecia was a victim of abuse as well.

"Hojo and Lucrecia married for science." Did ya'll even play Dirge? It was clear that Hojo was incredibly manipulative to lure Lucrecia in. Vincent literally says "As long as she's happy" because he thought she was happy and in love with Hojo, and she likely was at one point. Some of you also forget that Hojo preyed on Lucrecia at a very vulnerable point in her life.

We can recognize that Lucrecia did awful, but you also have to recognize that she was a victim of Hojo and Shinra as well.

By the way, Sephiroth did far more abhorrent things than Lucrecia did. Some of ya'll Lucrecia haters are letting your misogyny show, and there really is no denying that.

[otnesse]

Yeah, she was a victim of Hojo and Shinra, much like her son, and she definitely did not willingly abandon Sephiroth either: He was outright KIDNAPPED from her by his dad, WITHOUT even letting her hold him.

Honestly, the shade she gets reminds me a LOT of the unfair bashing Ariel gets.

[rosy-crow]

Does bro even have hobbies

[otnesse]

Heck, does Shinra even ALLOW him to have hobbies for that matter

[altocat]

I've said it before and I'll say it again--Sephiroth did NOT enlist into Shinra like all the others. He did not have the luxury of choice. He was effectively a hostage since birth. Or rather, a glorified pet that they abused and deployed at will. Just because Sephiroth outwardly SEEMED to benefit from Shinra's praise and privileges doesn't mean he actually WAS. He is little more than a trained dog to them. He does horrible things for Shinra because they are effectively his masters, not because he likes killing for them or actually gets anything out of it.

He was stolen from his mother from birth

He never went outside

He never got to travel

He slept in a windowless cell without a visible bed

He was used to having things taken from him

He was subjected to years of physical, medical, and psychological abuse

He was denied any information about his family

He was denied any information about his biology that would have alleviated his concerns about being physically different from other people

He served as a guinea pig for other soldiers and his torture was designed to test the limits of the human body

He was likely way overexposed to Mako to a higher degree than the other soldiers, something we KNOW is extremely dangerous

He was denied the proper foundations to learn healthy coping or socializing techniques

His humanity and personhood were consistently ignored in favor of the false image of a warrior

He was encouraged to be violent for the sake of survival

He likely wasn't being financially compensated for ANY of his efforts

His privacy was consistently violated since his toddler years and was blasted out for all the world to see

They were ready to kill him if he ever turned on them

They were probably never going to let him peacefully retire

They forced him to kill other children

They forced him to rescue his own abuser

They forced him to fight/turn against the only people he'd ever truly loved

Sephiroth was not there willingly. He was not there by choice.

He never was.

[otnesse]

Sephiroth if anything is probably one of the few cases where "Just Following Orders" if anything would have gotten him PARDONED after World War II rather than executed (unlike the German soldiers, he was outright raised since birth to be a weapon and had zero actual choice in the matter).

[otnesse]

Want to be clear, I'm no fan of Family Guy, and especially not a fan of a repeat rapist like Glenn Quagmire (in fact, he's part of the reason I'm soured to Brock regarding a similar running gag starting with AG [yes, Brock had the running gag in the OS as well, but at least that had the excuse of him trying to find a new mommy for his siblings. AG destroyed that bit of context the moment they brought Lola in and kept his womanizing gag regardless, something even Takeshi Shudo complained about]). That said, however, if a May fan demands to know why I hate/dislike May so much, I'd probably supply a similar length of specific grievances I have against May as a character, her writing, and, yes, even how she compared to Misty ultimately after replacing her (though even that is minor surprisingly enough) to that of Quagmire when Brian demanded to know why Quagmire had contempt for him:

[onewinged-sephiroth]

*even he could not say no to those puppy eyes*

[otnesse]

Neither of them knew it at the time, but let's just say they BOTH would learn what the harm would be in that, if for differing reasons.

[otnesse]

I thought of a far better Jaws reference for Shrek 2 than the one they used (that was technically meant to insult Ariel than anything else).

Basically, have Fiona in the water beckoning Shrek to come in as the water's great a'la Chrissie Watkins (with it being heavily implied that Fiona was skinnydipping). It then shows her in shadow from below with a similar theme to the Jaws leitmotif playing in the background. But then when it cuts back to the surface, there's a muffled flatulence sound effect and some bubbles popping behind Fiona, with a Bruce-like Great White Shark ending up surfacing and floating belly-up right behind her as Fiona grabs it and decides it would be a great bit of dinner for the two of them, heavily implying that Bruce was about to eat Fiona, but got a direct blast of her flatulence instead and got killed instantly, also doubling as a reference to the opening squence for the first film where Shrek "fished" by farting in the swampy bog.

[bestboiraditz]

I was watching some old clips of Raditz and I realized something interesting about this characterization. Yes, Raditz is immediately interesting because he's Goku's older brother, but he's made even MORE interesting in my opinion thanks to the brief characterization he's allowed to have.

Take his first lines to Goku:

He doesn't immediately berate him for his failure to purge the planet, he takes a moment to muse on how much Goku has grown and how he looks just like their father Bardock. Keep in mind, Bardock wasn't even a spark in Toriyama's mind, so for him to have Raditz say this when he's supposed to be a throwaway villain shows an unusual level of fondness for family, especially considering what we later learn about Saiyans

Raditz, upon realizing Goku doesn't remember him, isn't just annoyed that Goku forgot his mission, but seems distraught that his little brother doesn't remember him.

It's a small detail, but again, cements that Raditz shows an unusual level of attachment to family bonds, especially for a Sayain.

And then (and this is something important to keep in mind) he declares that he will find a way to recover his little brother's memories because Goku is NEEDED.

His priority isn't to get the planet purged or punish Goku for failing, it's to regain the only biological bond he has left, however little of it there may be.

I find it interesting Toriyama wrote this piece of dialogue. It just seems odd he would write such layered dialogue to characterize a villain he always intended to kill off ASAP. I guess it was to play into the whole "subverting the brother trope" but still, it doesn't make the characterization any less interesting

When Raditz tells Goku how their planet was destroyed and how everyone died, he AGAIN emphasizes that this means their parents died too.

Again, Raditz really seems to put value on his family. Note he says PARENTS not just father. Even Vegeta, for as long as we've gotten to know him, never talks about his father King Vegeta that much (if at all? He's thought about him, but not really talked about him) I find Goku's reaction interesting too, as if deep inside, despite not remembering Bardock and Gine, his heart still feels the pain of losing them. (Could it be possible Raditz noticed his reaction and took that as a sign that Goku felt the bond too, hence his following actions?)

Like @masakoxtra said, Bardock's line seems to be unusually empathetic for Saiyans. (He talks about it at 3:30)

Even Raditz, despite living his whole life under Frieza's boot and submitting to the bullying and callousness of Vegeta and Nappa and hardening his heart because of it, hasn't completely lost his sense of empathy, it's part of his nature albeit incredibly suppressed.

Raditz then has an unusually distressed response when he realizes Goku doesn't have a tail.

He doesn't mock him for losing it or immediately gets disgusted by his weakness, he is outright horrified and then gets mad at Goku for letting others just remove his tail (From Raditz's perspective, It would be like if Goku just let his arm get cut off to fit in with a race of one-armed aliens).

For Raditz, he views it as a form of betrayal, not just of his race, but the idea that his own brother would rather pass as a lowly earthling than embrace his own heritage (family being something Raditz clearly values) really gets to Raditz on an emotional level.

Now that I think about it, Raditz kinda goes through 4 out of 5 of the stages of grief for the brief time he's alive.

His first reaction is denial that Goku had forgot him and accepted life on earth, then anger that he would rather live as an earthling than be with his Saiyan kin, and then he starts the bargaining phase, trying to entice Goku with the idea of fighting saying that he's a Saiyan and it's in his blood.

When that bargaining doesn't work, he resorts to a different form of bargaining.

Blackmail.

Raditz steals Gohan trying to force Goku to join him. He tells Goku to kill 100 humans by tomorrow as proof of his submission, but pay attention to the wording:

Raditz says "when you decide to join us, and you WILL decide to" that's how much confidence he has in Goku's devotion towards his son EVEN THOUGH Goku's a Saiyan.

Raditz doesn't have a shadow of a doubt that Goku will do everything in his power to protect his son, even if he is a weak crybaby. Saiyans don't typically care much for their kin as shown in several flashback material later on (in fact it's later explained that they'll completely disown and abandon babies that are too weak to be considered useful. They have a very Spartan-esque society).

But Raditz knows he can use Gohan as leverage because Raditz actually understands emotional connections between family members, something he would've likely valued all the more being considered weak himself.

A lot of times people are able to use emotional manipulation because they either understand or were a victim of similar manipulation.

He then warns Goku that he might as well comply because everyone is going to die anyway, the earth being scheduled for purging. He hammers home the point that Goku's defiance is pointless and he really doesn't have a choice anyway so he may as well submit.

But what Raditz is doing here is almost an act of compassion (for a Saiyan). The way he sees it, Goku will die if he doesn't comply, so joining them is the only way he'll be able to survive. If he didn't care about Goku's life, why warn him? Why give him a chance to prove himself?

In fact, why would Raditz need Goku to prove himself when he was willing to take him without that before?

This is just an idea, but could it be...because of his scouter?

Remember, his scouter was open the entire time so Vegeta and Nappa are listening in. If Vegeta was listening it, after hearing about Goku's weak power level and his defiance and kind-nature, Raditz probably knew Vegeta might just dispose of Goku when they returned, considering him a disgrace to the Saiyan race. So Raditz has to have Goku prove himself by killing a bunch of humans to show Vegeta he's worth keeping alive.

It's horrific in Goku's eyes, but to Raditz, the lives of a few humans is inconsequential compared to his brother. This again is why Raditz says Goku has no choice, Vegeta won't give them a choice.

This also might be desperation on Raditz's part. If we are to consider the opening of Dragonball Z: Kakarot canon, Vegeta and Nappa mock him, Nappa going as far as to declare it's why he's called "Raditz the Runt", apparently a knickname he's saddled with in the Frieza force.

Raditz, instead of responding angrily or protesting as most Saiyans would, bows his head and pathetically apologizes, promising things will be different next time, showing that not only is this bullying common, but Raditz has just accepted it at this point. The way Raditz treats Goku when meeting him may stem from this treatment, he's trying to sway his brother the only way he's seen, through brute force and intimidation.

But Vegeta, getting sick of Raditz's weakness, promises to kill him if he screws up again, and if Vegeta promises death, you know it's coming. Raditz, panicking as his self-preservation instincts kick in, mentions his brother, saying he can help make things easier, but really Raditz just doesn't want Vegeta to kill him. Even then, Vegeta scoffs "The fact that he's YOUR brother doesn't exactly fill me with confidence" It's possible that Raditz did actually forget his brother and it was only in his panic, scrambling mentally for any way to save his life, that in that moment of desperation he at last remembered Kakarot.

Again, if we are to consider this conversation canon, Raditz needs Goku to survive to better the odds of his own survival, it's only after he's in a pod heading to Earth that he has time to think about Kakarot and wonder why he hasn't tried contacting them after so long.

But back to the OG manga, After Raditz gives Goku his ultimatum, he says this:

Again, he could've stopped at "I hope you don't disappoint me" but to follow it up by emphasizing it's for both his and Gohan's sake is noteworthy.

And even though Raditz clearly doesn't have much of a connection with Gohan as he does with Goku, I find this bit particularly interesting:

He barks at Gohan to stop crying and states that he possesses the proud blood of Saiyans. Yes, he is annoyed by Gohan's crying, but he also feels that he's better than that since he is still a Saiyan and wants him to be strong.

I like to imagine that Raditz is repeating something Bardock told him when he cried as a child, it feels like a very Bardock thing to say.

I particularly like the english dub of this scene, Justin Cook gives such an interesting and tender delivery of the line.

Also I really like how Raditz pauses to look at Gohan before walking away in the anime, I like to interpret it as Raditz seeing a bit of himself as a child in Gohan, but quickly burying those feelings.

There's a little fancomic I found that really drives that idea home.

When Goku and Piccolo show up, before they even fight, Raditz says this:

Again, why warn Goku? This feels more like Raditz is still in the bargaining mindset, he's trying to get his brother to give up and now must resort to brutally beating him to get his point through.

And then followed by this.

Remember, his scouter is open, so it's entirely possible he's acting ruthless and declaring they'll die so he won't look soft to Vegeta. I mean, he'd kill Piccolo without a thought, yeah, but Goku...? It may still be a bluff.

Plus, if he was serious about killing them, why stand around and let them plot instead of finishing them off?

The tail scene is where we see Raditz's cowardly nature on full display. But I think this moment really enhances his character because most Saiyans probably wouldn't beg for their lives, at least not to the degree Raditz is doing, they're too proud a race.

Raditz starts rambling about how he'd never actually kill his brother and his death threats were just bluffs.

Yes, we know it's a ploy to get free, but could there be an iota of truth in there? The fact he could've cut off his tail but was waiting for Piccolo to fire off his second Makenkosopo shows that Raditz is a quick thinker and very calculating.

Plus he probably didn't want to have to lose his tail unless he absolutely HAD to.

Goku was NOT stupid for letting go.

After Goku releases him, Raditz mocks his softness stating that he, a Saiyan-warrior wouldn't hesitate to kill their own brother, only to confusedly ask if Goku wants "a demonstration".

Like, if he wouldn't hesitate to kill his brother, why is he hesitating to kill his brother?

He's not killing him, he's torturing him, he could easily end it.

Remember that Double Sunday he shot off with ease earlier?

And of course after Raditz and Goku get turned into donuts, Raditz says one of the saddest lines in retrospect:

Like, he is relying on Vegeta and Nappa to save him, believing that they'll value him as a Saiyan and bring him back because HE HAS NO ONE ELSE TO RELY ON.

Right before he dies, he's in a sort of stage 4 depression where he can't believe this is how his life is going to end, dying alone and disgraced on some backwater planet at the hands of his own brother, their family line coming to a miserable end. He's never allowed to come to stage 5: acceptance (which is often where the change in a person's perspective/character tends to happen) because he dies and is forgotten.

Another thing that makes me sad Raditz didn't survive is cuz he's the perfect medium between Goku and Vegeta.

Goku rejects his saiyan heritage while Vegeta clings to it, but Raditz feels like he could easily straddle both worlds. He'd cling to his saiyan heritage out of love and respect for his parents (He'd still call Goku Kakarot, not because "it's a Saiyan name" like Vegeta, but because it's the name Bardock and Gine gave, his reason a much more personal one).

However, Raditz would have plenty of things NOT to like about Saiyan society, especially with how he and his father were treated as low-class warriors.

Being on earth, surrounded by kind people who don't belittle him and show basic kindness and respect would quickly endear Raditz to earth (remember, Bardock's kin are unusually empathetic for Saiyans).

Plus, being around Goku, who'd no doubt encourage and be proud of Raditz whilst training, would do a lot to boost Raditz's confidence (Goku looking like Bardock a way to ease his yearning to prove himself to his father) and further make him enjoy earth.

I like to imagine that, while Goku always wears a training gi from earth and Vegeta always wears some semblance of saiyan armor, Raditz would probably have a saiyan breastplate resembling Bardock's (as a kind of tribute to his dad) and go with loose pants like Goku which is good for training, visually symbolizing his willingness to find the balance between two worlds.

If Raditz had survived in the canon, this could've played even further into Vegeta's sense of isolation post-Cell arc. During his whole Majin Vegeta vs Goku fight speech, he could've said something like "And imagine the frustration I felt, when the only other pure-blood of my race left, your brother, that low-level trash who'd trembled for years under my elite warrior might, not only obtained the power of a super saiyan, but deemed me, ME the prince of all Saiyans UNWORTHY of his time! UNWORTHY FOR HIM TO FIGHT!"

Oh, and...

Must run in the family.

[unnounblr]

Something that always strikes me is when the fandom (and, worse, sometimes latter official material, like GT, Fusion Reborn, the Toyotaro Super manga) acts like, Vegeta was always noble, and Raditz and Nappa couldn't be redeemed because they were always bastards, when, like.

In the actual text of the manga, in the actual story of the Saiyan Saga, Vegeta was the Big Bad, and was significantly more evil and presented with less redeeming or positive qualities than either of them.

Like. Not to distract from a Raditz post, but Nappa did immediately think of resurrecting Raditz with the Dragon Balls. While I doubt their relationship was ever cuddly, that one moment interests me, makes me think that there's some level of. Care. There.

The fact that Vegeta kills Nappa, and the reason he does so, makes me think that maybe Raditz always suspected that Vegeta was going to be the one to kill him.

I still kinda love that DBS Broly has two other Saiyans without names with them that survived initially. I want to believe Vegeta killed them both at some point.

I have seen too many fan writers act like Vegeta is secretly mourning or regretful of the genocide and extinction of the Saiyans, when. I honestly think that the biggest threat to the surviving Saiyans was Vegeta, more than Freeza, and Vegeta contributed more to the continued extinction, with his pride and bloodlust superiority.

Like, there's also the misconception, from the anime, that Freeza kills his own soldiers indiscriminately, when. Purely manga wise, I actually feel like that's more of a Vegeta trait.

Because I. What I like about the fact that Vegeta got to change and be redeemed. Is the fact that it's intrinsically unfair and unjust. There are moments where Dragon Ball is actually frequently pretty bleak and cynical, and. I actually do like the message that redemption and change aren't about who "deserve it" more, but just. About who gets given a chance.

Sometimes the worst person in a group gets an opportunity they fundamentally don't deserve, that somebody else might have deserved more. That's life.

[otnesse]

In Vegeta's defense, being taken in by the likes of Frieza at a young age because the latter blackmailed your dad in at least the anime isn't exactly going to do much favors to your morality long term (heck, it's actually saying a lot that Vegeta eventually DID genuinely redeem himself DESPITE everything, and it's at least plausible for someone THAT black hearted to turn around. Just ask Saint Paul, aka, Saul.). Plus, to be fair, the manga does sort-of hint Frieza's more than capable of killing his subordinates simply for being in his way (based on the flashback to Bardock that was taken directly from Bardock: The Father of Goku, and that scene had Frieza deliberately launching his supernova at Planet Vegeta while his forces were still in its path.). I do kind of wish Nappa and Raditz were allowed to come back from the dead, though, maybe even adjust to life on Earth since that would be the closest thing TO home by that point (sure, Nappa would probably have a bit of a grudge against Vegeta for the stunt he pulled, but then again, one of the games did imply he'll forgive Vegeta if he managed to get one of the higher level Super Saiyan forms). Heck, Raditz was arguably the NICEST of the three villainous Saiyans ultimately.

Well, I know a guy who DID actually redeem Raditz and Nappa and let them live.

[vegitofan0]

Snowball scene Misconceptions

So I was scrolling on twitter as one does when looking for the most …intelligent takes, and people have been bringing up discourse around this scene again from XYZ of Serena throwing snowballs at Ash; and of course leave it to the fandom to misinterpret the hell out of this scene and then extrapolate from their botched interpretation they have and then come to conclusions that stray so far away from the original scenes intention. Im gonna try and debunk as many of these talking points as I can,just the main ones I see online at least.

So first the context behind this scene, Ash has lost against wolfric which by this point is about his third loss,greninja and Ash have both left the Pokemon center and have been gone for almost a day,and Serena worries obviously,and goes to look for him.

Serena then finds Ash in the forest and goes to comfort him by try to relate to him through their similar experiences with losing. Ash then lashes out at her for no reason and Serena retorts by asking Ash to talk to her and Ash just brushes her off and tells her to go away. In response to this Serena throws snowballs at him and tells Ash thats not the Ash she knows and reminds him of his core characteristics.

I think where people get caught up is the part where Serena tells Ash that he’s not acting like the Ash she knows and people have framing it as Serena gaslighting him on some level and telling him how he’s supposed to act because she has an "idealized" version of him in her mind that she expects him to always act like. The argument kinda hinges on the idea that Xy’s characterization of Ash being more heroic and less bratty and combative is not who Ash really is and that since this is the "first" time he’s been really down,so Serena has a "fake" idea of Ash. Whats flawed about this argument is that it’s a bit dishonest with its framing,like one of Ash and Serena’s first interactions is Ash at a weak spot mentally. At the beginning of Xy Ash has just lost to viola and is struggling with his training against Alexa and counting his recent loss in the unova league where he placed worse than before,so if you take all that into account Ash was having a hard time similar to this,it’s not the exact same situation as in the snowbelle arc but it’s very similar. Serena when first giving Ash his handkerchief back reminds Ash of there time in camp which reminds him of his core self. I think Serena was trying to go for a similar approach here by reminding Ash that he’s being uncharacteristically a wimp. Shes not saying that he NEEDS to act a certain way,but that he’s has the tools to bounce back from this loss in a more healthy way. Ash was pushing away all the people that care about him and isolating himself which is that exact opposite thing that gave him and greninja the ability to tap into the battle bond in the first place. Serena has seen him bounce back from losses and by reminding him of his core character he’ll be able to come back from this loss which in the end works.

I don’t like how some people online have tried to frame this scene as Serena being just as if not the only one in the wrong in this. People think that just cause she has a crush on him that she has formed a "fake/idealized" version of him that she’s basically gaslighting which as I just explained isn’t really the case. Sure Serena probably on some level sees Ash with rose tinted glasses,but I doubt it’s not the level people try and make it out to be,like it’s not like shes actively favoring Ash over like clemont or Bonnie,she just as a crush and thats fine😭. Serena’s opening line probably wasn’t the best as telling someone like in that state you now how they feel,even if it’s true it shifts the focus on her rather than Ash,but Ash’s equally cringe response was not warranted like at all either . I think a lot of these arguments also hinge on downplaying Serena’s POV and giving Ash all the benefits of doubt and then will act like there explanations are also justifications,but newsflash you can’t just treat people bad because you’re in a bad spot mentally.

Also how people throw around the term "depressed" to describe Ash is very misleading,Ash is not clinically depressed he’s just very upset. So when people try and use cringe arguments like,"well Serena shouldn’t have thrown snowballs at a depressed person" and it’s like relax y’all acting like they had rock in em and Ash has survived worst and was fine.

Another thing people look over is that Serena is explicitly sorry for anything she did. This shows that Serena was being accountable for any wrongdoing she might have done. This also proves that Serena doesn’t have an idealized version of Ash because if she did I doubt someone like that would have any remorse or accountability for what they may have said or did.

So to end this Ash is,by in large the one in the wrong,Serena doesn’t have an idealized version of him in her mind,and it worked out in the end,Ash and greninja reconnected and mastered the battle bond so you can thank Serena for that.

Anyway,Vegitofan out!:)

[thekalosianpipelette]

To add to this, Serena's approach towards empathy is a very common autistic approach to empathy. As an autistic individual with an entire family full of autistic people, we all grew up believing that this was how humans empathised with each other. We took "put yourself in someone elses shoes" LITERALLY, and the best way to literally do that is to articulate an experience you have had that highlights that you have, quite literally, walked in similar shoes.

It's only in the last year that my entire family learnt this is not how neurotypical people empathise. If anything, it looks like shifting the focus back onto one's self in a dismissive way. Yet, two autistics doing this together... that's basically "I see you. Let me show you with an example that I completely understand the emotion you are expressing," and then the autistic person on the receiving end goes "Oh wow, you were able to perfectly capture my exact emotion and feeling with a clearly articulated example, I feel super seen."

Now, I'm not saying that Serena is autistic... but maybe one of the writers is. Maybe someone somewhere in the production wanted it to be perceived as her making it about herself. Who knows! But at the end of the day, Serena was attempting to find a way to resonate and connect with Ash to make him feel less alone in his sadness, and he lashed out at her aggressively because he was wanting to wallow in his woe alone. Sad people do this all the time, especially when they don't feel they deserve love, affection and connection. He was grieving his losses and his disconnect with Greninja... no wonder he leant into that. But it resulted in Serena then feeling rejected and hurt, and she lashed out at him in return, then immediately regretted being so reactive in the moment.

They're both human, and humans tend to lash out when they are hurting. Both Serena and Ash regretted lashing out at each other, and Ash was able to get out of his funk thanks to Serena's blunt evisceration of his character. I really love the Snowbelle arc, because I appreciate seeing Ash have these moments of weakness and vulnerability, and learning lessons through these challenges.

[otnesse]

Interesting point, especially speaking as someone who's autistic myself. Never thought of it that way, which actually does make Serena's action even MORE understandable. Misty had a similar attempt even in early Kanto as well.

Either way, all I can say is, she certainly handled the situation a LOT better than Naru Narusegawa from Love Hina did in Chapter 17.

EDIT: In case you need clarification, this is what I was referring to:

In case you need context, both Naru and Keitaru flunked their entrance exams into Tokyo University beforehand and became depressed enough to go to a bar and... well, as you can see, things got ugly. Naru basically started the whole fight as you could see there, and when Keitaru called her out (which, I should point out, was pretty much the ONLY time he did so rather than meekly apologizing to her, or to any of the other girls for that matter), she basically went all cry-bully on him. Yeah, Serena definitely handled the situation with WAY more maturity than her ultimately. Heck, Misty, even though she's a Tsundere like Naru is, handled similar situations in Showdown at Pewter City and Friends Till the End with WAY more maturity than Naru did. I think the saddest thing is that two ten year old girls had more maturity than a 17 year old high schooler (in fact, ironically, Naru if anything behaved a bit more like Ash in those instances).

[vegitofan0]

Snowball scene Misconceptions

So I was scrolling on twitter as one does when looking for the most …intelligent takes, and people have been bringing up discourse around this scene again from XYZ of Serena throwing snowballs at Ash; and of course leave it to the fandom to misinterpret the hell out of this scene and then extrapolate from their botched interpretation they have and then come to conclusions that stray so far away from the original scenes intention. Im gonna try and debunk as many of these talking points as I can,just the main ones I see online at least.

So first the context behind this scene, Ash has lost against wolfric which by this point is about his third loss,greninja and Ash have both left the Pokemon center and have been gone for almost a day,and Serena worries obviously,and goes to look for him.

Serena then finds Ash in the forest and goes to comfort him by try to relate to him through their similar experiences with losing. Ash then lashes out at her for no reason and Serena retorts by asking Ash to talk to her and Ash just brushes her off and tells her to go away. In response to this Serena throws snowballs at him and tells Ash thats not the Ash she knows and reminds him of his core characteristics.

I think where people get caught up is the part where Serena tells Ash that he’s not acting like the Ash she knows and people have been framing it as Serena gaslighting him on some level and telling him how he’s supposed to act because she has an "idealized" version of him in her mind that she expects him to always act like. The argument kinda hinges on the idea that Xy’s characterization of Ash being more heroic and less bratty and combative is not who Ash really is and that since this is the "first" time he’s been really down,so Serena has a "fake" idea of Ash. Whats flawed about this argument is that it’s a bit dishonest with its framing,like one of Ash and Serena’s first interactions is Ash at a weak spot mentally. At the beginning of Xy Ash has just lost to viola and is struggling with his training against Alexa and counting his recent loss in the unova league where he placed worse than before,so if you take all that into account Ash was having a hard time similar to this,it’s not the exact same situation as in the snowbelle arc but it’s very similar. Serena when first giving Ash his handkerchief back reminds Ash of there time in camp which reminds him of his core self. I think Serena was trying to go for a similar approach here by reminding Ash that he’s being uncharacteristically a wimp. Shes not saying that he NEEDS to act a certain way,but that he’s has the tools to bounce back from this loss in a more healthy way. Ash was pushing away all the people that care about him and isolating himself which is that exact opposite thing that gave him and greninja the ability to tap into the battle bond in the first place. Serena has seen him bounce back from losses and by reminding him of his core character he’ll be able to come back from this loss which in the end works.

I don’t like how some people online have tried to frame this scene as Serena being just as if not the only one in the wrong in this. People think that just cause she has a crush on him that she has formed a "fake/idealized" version of him that she’s basically gaslighting which as I just explained isn’t really the case. Sure Serena probably on some level sees Ash with rose tinted glasses,but I doubt it’s not the level people try and make it out to be,like it’s not like shes actively favoring Ash over like clemont or Bonnie,she just has as a crush and thats fine😭. Serena’s opening line probably wasn’t the best as telling someone like in that state you now how they feel,even if it’s true it shifts the focus on her rather than Ash,but Ash’s equally cringe response was not warranted like at all either . I think a lot of these arguments also hinge on downplaying Serena’s POV and giving Ash all the benefits of doubt and then will act like there explanations are also justifications,but newsflash you can’t just treat people bad because you’re in a bad spot mentally.

Also how people throw around the term "depressed" to describe Ash is very misleading,Ash is not clinically depressed he’s just very upset. So when people try and use cringe arguments like,"well Serena shouldn’t have thrown snowballs at a depressed person" and it’s like relax y’all acting like they had rock in em or something and Ash has survived worse and was fine.

Another thing people look over is that Serena is explicitly sorry for anything she did. This shows that Serena was being accountable for any wrongdoing she might have done. This also proves that Serena doesn’t have an idealized version of Ash because if she did I doubt someone like that would have any remorse or accountability for what they may have said or did.

People always like to try and criticize Serena for being not confrontational enough with Ash,but then the one time she’s explicitly confrontational with him y’all have a problem,interesting…

So to end this: Ash is by in large the one in the wrong,Serena doesn’t have an idealized version of him in her mind,and it worked out in the end,Ash and greninja reconnected and mastered the battle bond so you can thank Serena for that.

Anyway,Vegitofan out!:)

[otnesse]

You forgot to mention a similar situation where Ash was struggling with Korrina, even going as far as to try and have his Pokemon learn to dance just to compete with Tierno due to him using rhythm to beat her, and Serena talked him out of it.

And even though I'm far from an Amourshipper, and I'm not exactly a fan of Serena herself (though I'll be quick to point out that I'm no hater of her either. I guess to quote Metal Gear Solid, I'm neither enemy nor friend to her. I'm more of a Misty fan than anything else. That said, Serena did moreorless avert some French stereotypes, including the oversexed type despite having a more... Fiona-esque depiction to her. Meaning she was similar to Misty in that respect [even if not to the same degree, as Misty actually averted a LOT of stereotypes of anime females at the time], so I do have respect for her in that regard.), I definitely appreciate this well-written defense post of Serena's blow-up and a defense for her specifically. I also agree Ash ultimately was at fault there and kind of deserved the snowballs there (even if I personally think Misty handled two similar situations slightly better, I don't really blame Serena for how she acted, plus she did regret her behavior later on and most certainly would have apologized had Ash not thanked her instead). I think I can name characters from other series who engaged in FAR more blatant gaslighting abuse than Serena did even if I DID find her at fault. Case in point, Naru Narusegawa from Love Hina in not one, but TWO chapters of that manga, Chapter 17 nearing the end and Chapter 102 when Kanako tried to sexually assault Keitaru. In fact, I actually was going to compare this scene to Naru's behavior in Chapter 17 in a future post (I'm getting Misty done first, and she has three scenes from TWO episodes where I'm comparing her with Naru. Just to be clear, Misty and Serena were SAINTS compared to Naru regarding how they treated the main character in similar situations).

Besides, personally, I felt The Bicker The Better and how May and Ash behaved there was WAY worse than this (and unlike with Serena, where Ash WAS indeed largely at fault moreorless, in that particular case, MAY was the one largely at fault and if anything acted like a complete brat). In fact, I'd argue if ANY scene was similar to the Chapter 17 ending scene from that piece of crap manga, it was that episode.