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oozey mess
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@fantasy-land-and-ocean
āUgh this prominent women in the Lesbian movement turned out to be a bisexualā āugh this famous lesbian transitioned into a manā āugh this queer romance writer turns out to be aceā āugh this cis feminist author ended up being nonbinaryā āugh this writer on masculinity transitioned into a womanā
Oh no! We might have to recognize liberation as an interconnected intersectional struggle! Ahhh!!! >.<
Reblog if you think asexuality is a legitimate sexuality.
I'm trying to prove something.
Reblog if your blog is a safe place for asexuals.
as an asexual myself, my blog is a safe place for people of all sexualities :)
Youāre not depressed. You just need $250,000 in your bank account.
Reblog to materialize $250,000 in prev's bank account
all cops are bastards because all cops are just doing their jobs
āIām just doing what Iām told. If I am ordered to remove gold fillings from refugees theeth then thatās what Iāll doā, says police officer Michael Hansen. Just thought Iād add this since not a lot of people outside of the nordic countries seem to have seen it. This is a danish police officer discussing a new danish law that says the police should seize the possesions and money of refugees to finance the integration.
He uh, skipped awful quickly to āstealing gold fillingsā didnāt he?
Original Article the image & caption are taken from.
Itās real.
Remember that ājust following ordersā was a claim made by the nazis who survived World War Two who were charged with warcrimes.
They also stole the gold from peopleās teeth.
anakin is not in love with queen/senator amidala, he is in love with padmƩ naberrie.
i often wish my faves were more popular but then i see how people act about popular characters and i don't wish that anymore
when i posted this i didn't realize people would think i mean that people are too mean or weird about popular characters in a negative way. i was thinking about the fact that popular characters get turned into boring homogeneous sexless avatars with no edge or depth who are only allowed to be a representation of fans' personal experiences and therefore cannot do wrong without it being explained away or somehow someone else's fault because otherwise it's a personal attack upon the fan
Men who talk shit about gold diggers underestimate the grit it takes to put up with an insufferable man, even when money is involved. We should be thanking them for their service like they are veterans.
Can't leave this in the tags..
Also if men have such a big problem with gold diggers, maybe they shouldn't have, I don't know, hoard resources and exclude women from developing the skills that would let them have access to those resources for millennia...Just a thought
Men who talk shit about gold diggers underestimate the grit it takes to put up with an insufferable man, even when money is involved. We should be thanking them for their service like they are veterans.
Can't leave this in the tags..
What is your explanation for these daily massacres in Gaza and throughout Palestine?
For 1000 days, 100 people have been dying every day, the majority of them children, women, and the elderly, right before your eyes and within your hearing. What kind of logic is this? What explanation can there be for the extermination of an entire people? Where are the rights, the charters, and the international treaties? It has become clear that they are all lies. The strongest imposes their control. What is our sin, we defenseless civilians, that we should be exterminated? Wake up, I beg you!
Why must I die and see those around me die? Is this fair while the whole world lives in peace? Why must I fight just to stay alive? Why must my father struggle with his illness alone? I don't want to lose my father or anyone I love here. Please donate to me and my family and save us from this injustice. Please donate now.
I can't do this alone, but I'm doing my best. Please don't let my efforts go to waste. Donate, please donate! Anything helps, but please do your utmost and donate. I don't know how to say this, but truly, these donations are our lifeline, and without them, we will perish and never survive. Please do your utmost to help us.
If you can't donate, please share this post widely. Help us find someone who can and will donate. Share with your family, your friends, everyone who can. Please contribute whatever you can; our lives are in danger.
This family is in desperate need of help. Anything you can give will help immensely!
Please help Nader, he is my friend and struggling and just that hurts to see. Donate if you can.
I don't think Anidala is at all comparable to Joker/Harley Quinn.
ppl compare them because media literacy is dead and rotting
I'm genuinely impressed how bad and completely missing the point of... everything that a take can be, on this website.
Just... it was impressive, how far-reaching the complete 'I am showing I understood literally nothing' wrt to the movies.
I've seen my share of bad prequels takes but MY GOD that one takes every cake. Absolute worst, and the Prequels hatedom has some truly abysmal takes.
Is it ok that I want to defend this theory in a "so bad is good" kind of way? I mean, I don't think any other ship has a hatedom that is so dedicated to being this obtuse while thinking is smart.
But also, I just read the comments on this meta and half of them are claiming that Padme looks closer to Obi Wan's age than Anakin's (she doesn't) and that Natalie Portman was an adult when she was cast (she wasn't)...and well, I don't want to go there but considering how some ppl have defended a dead PDF with phrases such as "The girls were 14/15, it's not like they were 8!!!!!!) I'm seriously side eyeing this.....
I mean, it's your blog, defend what you want on it?
I didn't expect a reply tbf...
I'm genuinely impressed how bad and completely missing the point of... everything that a take can be, on this website.
Just... it was impressive, how far-reaching the complete 'I am showing I understood literally nothing' wrt to the movies.
I've seen my share of bad prequels takes but MY GOD that one takes every cake. Absolute worst, and the Prequels hatedom has some truly abysmal takes.
Is it ok that I want to defend this theory in a "so bad is good" kind of way? I mean, I don't think any other ship has a hatedom that is so dedicated to being this obtuse while thinking is smart.
But also, I just read the comments on this meta and half of them are claiming that Padme looks closer to Obi Wan's age than Anakin's (she doesn't) and that Natalie Portman was an adult when she was cast (she wasn't)...and well, I don't want to go there but considering how some ppl have defended a dead PDF with phrases such as "The girls were 14/15, it's not like they were 8!!!!!!) I'm seriously side eyeing this.....
I mean, it's your blog, defend what you want on it?
I'm genuinely impressed how bad and completely missing the point of... everything that a take can be, on this website.
Just... it was impressive, how far-reaching the complete 'I am showing I understood literally nothing' wrt to the movies.
I've seen my share of bad prequels takes but MY GOD that one takes every cake. Absolute worst, and the Prequels hatedom has some truly abysmal takes.
Is it ok that I want to defend this theory in a "so bad is good" kind of way? I mean, I don't think any other ship has a hatedom that is so dedicated to being this obtuse while thinking is smart.
But also, I just read the comments on this meta and half of them are claiming that Padme looks closer to Obi Wan's age than Anakin's (she doesn't) and that Natalie Portman was an adult when she was cast (she wasn't)...and well, I don't want to go there but considering how some ppl have defended a dead PDF with phrases such as "The girls were 14/15, it's not like they were 8!!!!!!) I'm seriously side eyeing this.....
LoveĀ āem and LeaveĀ āem
Anakin: Falls in love with Padme when heās assigned to protect her. Fandom: āHeās so selfish! Their relationship is so inappropriate and it stops him doing his job!ā
Obi Wan: Hooked up with Satine as a teenager when on assignment on Mandalore and probably got her pregnant Fandom: āObitine are the best couple in Star Wars and its so wonderful he has a son!ā
This is a quote from one of @tragicfantasy-girlās posts. It made me laugh, but I also wanted to point at the serious side of this too. There is a very important contrast here and Iāve been meaning to talk about this for awhile.
The Jedi Order forbids marriages but allows hook-ups. This is not a good thing. I I hope I donāt need to explain whyĀ āloveĀ āem and leaveĀ āemā should not be considered the gold standard for relationships. (Then again, the Jedi donāt approve of committed relationships so thatās fine to them, but itās certainly not healthy.)
The above understanding also means that, while a Jedi cannot make a commitment to anyone, they can theoretically use them. In the worst cases, it can encourage objectification and/or abandonment in the interest of that they callĀ ānon-attachment.āĀ And by abandonment, I donāt just mean their partner.
I think we see this very clearly in the contrast between Anakin and Padme and Obi-Wan and Satine. Anakin is undeniably attracted to Padme, and if physical attraction were all that mattered to either of them, thatās fine.
Anakin, however, for all his faults, is not interested in that. He respects Padme. We see this all throughout AotC. He honors her boundaries. He demonstrates admiration for her and the work sheās done. He supports her.Ā He wants so much more than just to satisfy his lust.
Later, in RotS, when Padme tells Anakin she is pregnant, he supports her immediately. Scandal or no scandal, he wonāt abandon her. He is going to be there for her and the baby no matter what. He seriously steps up where many men fail to. Itās quite admirable, whatever the Jedi say. Thereās many a woman in a crisis pregnancy who has not had nearly so much support.
In comparison, we have Obi-Wan who honors the Jedi Code. He hooks up with Satine on a mission. I grant he seems to care about her, but the Jedi way means he will leave her heart-broken. Every relationship Obi-Wan enters into, he enters into knowing it will end. Heāll just abandon them. Where emotions are involved, and they tend to get involved, thatās no kindness.
And the implication is that Korkie is his son. Letās assume he is. Does Satine ever try to contact Obi-Wan about this? Maybe she does. Even if she did, I doubt the message would ever reach him. People cannot simply contact the Jedi Order. Is she going to petition the Senate about her crisis pregnancy? Yeah, right. So, now sheās alone and pregnant.Ā
Then, even if he did know, whatās Obi-Wan going to do? If Korkieās Force-Sensitive, heāll just go to the Temple. And if heās not, is a Jedi going to called up for child-support? Somehow I doubt it. How do you even begin to get a Jedi on the hook for that? See above about petitioning the Senate. How much do Jedi even make anyway? Probably just a teeny monthly stipend, if that. The Order provides for them after all. Is the Order going to provide for all the potential illegitimate children out there? Somehow, I doubt it, unless they have the Force and induct them into the Order.
And in the unlikely event that Obi-Wan both knows about his son and has to pay child support, Obi-Wanās not going to visit that child. He wonāt do more than maybe send one letter, if that, because attachment, especially to oneās biological family, is forbidden. Anakin canāt even visit or contact his mother in slavery. Thereās no way Obi-Wanās visiting his kid heās never met whoās being raised in a decent environment. In fact, he doesnāt. And thatās the Jedi way.Ā
And if thatās the Jedi way, it is wrong. That is deeply, deeply messed up.Ā
And you know what else? The Force does seem to have a hereditary element to it. It would not surprise me if the Order promotes casual sex knowing that there will be unintended pregnancies, because that just means more Force-Sensitive kids for them. Itās not like having the Force is not significantly rare after all. They could use the numbers.
tl;dr It seems sad (and wrong) to me that a loving and committed relationship where people raise their kids together is seen as dangerous-you-are-headed-to-the-Dark-Side. But loving and leaving someone, abandoning your kids, and forsaking commitment/responsibility, especially if they donāt have the Force is noble-good-light-side. There is something very wrong with that picture. Even more so when the former is forbidden, and the latter is encouraged.
Okay. Got some coffee. Got some downtime. Letās roll.
First off, Lucas can be a big case of āopen mouth, insert whole legā and/or Rowling-grade cringe. Great example? Going on record saying Indiana Jones was schtupping an eleven-year-old girl. Yes. He actually said that. Ew. Iāll wait for yāall to get the brain bleach. I kinda treat his āJedi can have sex, but not attachmentā in the same āWhat in the HELL, dude?!ā way.
The whole concept was one that some of the harsh critics of the franchise, such as David Brin (writer of the Uplift series and The Postman) and Athena Andreadis breathed fire on. Andreadis pointed out how overwhelmingly male the filmās Jedi were (the female Jedi were background set pieces in the films and didnāt get speaking roles, aside from Jocasta Nu being the prototypical clueless old lady librarian), and pointed out that allowing sexual release (with prostitutes and other casual liaisons) but not allowing marriage or long term relationships was a common way to keep young men emotionally stunted and needy enough to become unquestioning cannon fodder for the old men running things.Ā
Brin caustically pointed out that the whole āsorry, babe, canāt get attached,ā utterly reeks of immature male fantasy where someone can sleep around with impunity, and has a handy reason to rebuff any requests for more substantial commitment. As far as the inevitable illegitimate children such a āhit it and quit itā policy would leave? Lucas probably didnāt think it through. Heās a cisgender, heterosexual and sexually conservative guy and a product of the mid-century where the whole āgirl of the weekā trope was more acceptable.And, wellā¦see the statement about Indiana Jones and āWhat Were You THINKING?!ā
To the apologists? While casual sex isnāt taboo under Buddhism, sexual promiscuity is considered a form of abuse.
Oh, Manwƫ the Elder King, I just looked at that article you referenced about Indiana Jones.. and. Ugh. Ugh: this is every single shade of gross.
Lucas actually threw around the idea of Indiana Jones having sex with a girl under 15 because if she was any older it āwouldnāt be interesting⦠ā
Watching movies you loved as a child is a fascinating way to learn about what you cared about back then, versus what catches your attention
Thisā¦. actually goes a long way towards explaining some of the content relating to sex and marriage in not just the movies, but the Clone Wars series. (I am convinced Filoniās attitudes are no better, and could even be worse. )
Hence:
Jedi can sleep around as much as they want, as long as they donāt become āattachedā
Which by extension means there is nothing wrong with them paying for sex, an inherently exploitative action.
Presumably, male Jedi are not required to take responsibility for any illegitimate offspring they sire, although Lucas never talked about that it can reasonably be inferred from his statements.
All it all we have a *very* one-sided view of relationships which gives the Jedi most of the power yet places none of the responsibility on their shoulders.
ā¦and they tell us Anidala is a fundamentally bad and abusive relationship. On that matter, many in SW fandom uphold Obitine to be a counterbalance, and therefore a model āhealthyā relationship (looking at *you* @hannagoldworthy) - yet everything you say refutes that.
Their ārelationshipā is based entirely on the encounter they had as teenagers - which presumably involved Kenobi having sex with the girl he was supposed to be assigned to gaurd. Bear in mind that JAs often loudly object to Anakin romancing Padme when he was supposed to be protecting her, even though their relationship was entirely chaste and they were both adults. Yet they have no problem with Kenobi having engaged in such behaviour.
Further, Kenobiās youthful dalliance ended with him being basically ordered by Yoda to break things off with her. He says as much to Anakin in Season 6 of the Clone Wars. So when push came to shove, he chose the Order over her.
Now, in the previous Season and a couple of times before that we had a couple of these trying -to -be -epic romance moments in which Kenobi says he would have left the Jedi if only sheād asked him to- but I donāt buy it for an instant. He had to make that choice, and we *know* what he chose. Besides, there are plenty of lines in the series which suggest Kenobi doesnāt respect Satineās beliefs or wishes: even to the point that he makes fun of her beliefs- a few times.
Also, that whole idea places the responsibility entirely on the shoulders of the woman. If Kenobi truly loved Satine, she would not have had to *ask* him. He would have chosen her of his own free will. As the above suggests, we have every reason to believe he would not have taken her wishes into account when faced with such an important decision.
Now for the controversial part, and the part which makes my personal troll scream in outrage⦠I believe Satine was always doomed because she was only ever created for Obi Wan, as his ālove interestā and was always going to be killed off to give him āman painā.
You see this reflected a lot in fandom. They speak of Satine, if at all, only at her death, and not as a person of inherent value who lost her life- but because of how much sad-sads her death caused to a man. Her dying is just counted to the tally of his āinfinite sadnessā which by turn exists entirely to make him look good.
I heard about what Lucas suggested with Indiana Jones and Marion Ravenwoodās past (nearly made him a pedophilic creep, and he thought THAT would have been something the audience would have been entertained by?! As much as Iām not fond of Spielberg after some of his antics especially lately, at least he had enough humanity to be against the idea back then. And quite frankly, I REALLY donāt want to know what must have happened in Marionās past before meeting Indy if she was already promiscuous as a 12 year old in that nixed idea, since that would imply she was sexually abusedā¦). Makes me wonder why the heck God didnāt obliterate Indiana during that climax, closed eyes or not (since God and his son Jesus made it VERY clear they donāt support it at all. That ending literally traumatized me to such an extent that I have an extremely WARPED sense of God as a result.). And I thought the Jedi had protagonist-centered moralityā¦
And as much as I respect Anidala as a ship and am very much willing to go through fire to defend it, I do still have one gripe about it, and itās less the ship itself and more certain⦠directing choices Lucas made in TPM. I know canonically Padme and Anakin were meant to be four years apart in age, but due to Lucas deciding to cast Natalie Portman and Jake Lloyd as Padme and Anakin, respectively (who at the time of the films were 18 and 10, respectively), it ended up coming a bit TOO close to resembling a May-December romance/cougar relationship (and I suspect THAT directing decision was most likely a holdover from that idea Lucas had for Raiders). It would have been a bit more palatable to have an actual 14 year old girl play Padme at that time while saving Natalie Portman for AOTC. Or, if they absolutely MUST have Portman play Padme during that time, at least doll her up to plausibly look 14 (you know, like how they dolled up Moaning Myrtleās actress so sheād plausibly look like a middle schooler when she was actually in her thirties at the time she played her in The Chamber of Secrets).
And yeah, definitely agree with you that what Lucas stated about sexual relationships, especially for Jedi, was extremely bad and sickening. This is more like the crap that Jean-Paul Sartre and Simone de Beauvoir cooked up. Seriously, Anidalaās abusive? If anything, that was probably one of the healthiest relationships in Star Wars.
Natalie Portman was 16 when filming The Phantom Menace...and 14 when she was cast, she was 18 when the film was released .....A little research wouldn't hurt.....
LoveĀ āem and LeaveĀ āem
Anakin: Falls in love with Padme when heās assigned to protect her. Fandom: āHeās so selfish! Their relationship is so inappropriate and it stops him doing his job!ā
Obi Wan: Hooked up with Satine as a teenager when on assignment on Mandalore and probably got her pregnant Fandom: āObitine are the best couple in Star Wars and its so wonderful he has a son!ā
This is a quote from one of @tragicfantasy-girlās posts. It made me laugh, but I also wanted to point at the serious side of this too. There is a very important contrast here and Iāve been meaning to talk about this for awhile.
The Jedi Order forbids marriages but allows hook-ups. This is not a good thing. I I hope I donāt need to explain whyĀ āloveĀ āem and leaveĀ āemā should not be considered the gold standard for relationships. (Then again, the Jedi donāt approve of committed relationships so thatās fine to them, but itās certainly not healthy.)
The above understanding also means that, while a Jedi cannot make a commitment to anyone, they can theoretically use them. In the worst cases, it can encourage objectification and/or abandonment in the interest of that they callĀ ānon-attachment.āĀ And by abandonment, I donāt just mean their partner.
I think we see this very clearly in the contrast between Anakin and Padme and Obi-Wan and Satine. Anakin is undeniably attracted to Padme, and if physical attraction were all that mattered to either of them, thatās fine.
Anakin, however, for all his faults, is not interested in that. He respects Padme. We see this all throughout AotC. He honors her boundaries. He demonstrates admiration for her and the work sheās done. He supports her.Ā He wants so much more than just to satisfy his lust.
Later, in RotS, when Padme tells Anakin she is pregnant, he supports her immediately. Scandal or no scandal, he wonāt abandon her. He is going to be there for her and the baby no matter what. He seriously steps up where many men fail to. Itās quite admirable, whatever the Jedi say. Thereās many a woman in a crisis pregnancy who has not had nearly so much support.
In comparison, we have Obi-Wan who honors the Jedi Code. He hooks up with Satine on a mission. I grant he seems to care about her, but the Jedi way means he will leave her heart-broken. Every relationship Obi-Wan enters into, he enters into knowing it will end. Heāll just abandon them. Where emotions are involved, and they tend to get involved, thatās no kindness.
And the implication is that Korkie is his son. Letās assume he is. Does Satine ever try to contact Obi-Wan about this? Maybe she does. Even if she did, I doubt the message would ever reach him. People cannot simply contact the Jedi Order. Is she going to petition the Senate about her crisis pregnancy? Yeah, right. So, now sheās alone and pregnant.Ā
Then, even if he did know, whatās Obi-Wan going to do? If Korkieās Force-Sensitive, heāll just go to the Temple. And if heās not, is a Jedi going to called up for child-support? Somehow I doubt it. How do you even begin to get a Jedi on the hook for that? See above about petitioning the Senate. How much do Jedi even make anyway? Probably just a teeny monthly stipend, if that. The Order provides for them after all. Is the Order going to provide for all the potential illegitimate children out there? Somehow, I doubt it, unless they have the Force and induct them into the Order.
And in the unlikely event that Obi-Wan both knows about his son and has to pay child support, Obi-Wanās not going to visit that child. He wonāt do more than maybe send one letter, if that, because attachment, especially to oneās biological family, is forbidden. Anakin canāt even visit or contact his mother in slavery. Thereās no way Obi-Wanās visiting his kid heās never met whoās being raised in a decent environment. In fact, he doesnāt. And thatās the Jedi way.Ā
And if thatās the Jedi way, it is wrong. That is deeply, deeply messed up.Ā
And you know what else? The Force does seem to have a hereditary element to it. It would not surprise me if the Order promotes casual sex knowing that there will be unintended pregnancies, because that just means more Force-Sensitive kids for them. Itās not like having the Force is not significantly rare after all. They could use the numbers.
tl;dr It seems sad (and wrong) to me that a loving and committed relationship where people raise their kids together is seen as dangerous-you-are-headed-to-the-Dark-Side. But loving and leaving someone, abandoning your kids, and forsaking commitment/responsibility, especially if they donāt have the Force is noble-good-light-side. There is something very wrong with that picture. Even more so when the former is forbidden, and the latter is encouraged.
Okay. Got some coffee. Got some downtime. Letās roll.
First off, Lucas can be a big case of āopen mouth, insert whole legā and/or Rowling-grade cringe. Great example? Going on record saying Indiana Jones was schtupping an eleven-year-old girl. Yes. He actually said that. Ew. Iāll wait for yāall to get the brain bleach. I kinda treat his āJedi can have sex, but not attachmentā in the same āWhat in the HELL, dude?!ā way.
The whole concept was one that some of the harsh critics of the franchise, such as David Brin (writer of the Uplift series and The Postman) and Athena Andreadis breathed fire on. Andreadis pointed out how overwhelmingly male the filmās Jedi were (the female Jedi were background set pieces in the films and didnāt get speaking roles, aside from Jocasta Nu being the prototypical clueless old lady librarian), and pointed out that allowing sexual release (with prostitutes and other casual liaisons) but not allowing marriage or long term relationships was a common way to keep young men emotionally stunted and needy enough to become unquestioning cannon fodder for the old men running things.Ā
Brin caustically pointed out that the whole āsorry, babe, canāt get attached,ā utterly reeks of immature male fantasy where someone can sleep around with impunity, and has a handy reason to rebuff any requests for more substantial commitment. As far as the inevitable illegitimate children such a āhit it and quit itā policy would leave? Lucas probably didnāt think it through. Heās a cisgender, heterosexual and sexually conservative guy and a product of the mid-century where the whole āgirl of the weekā trope was more acceptable.And, wellā¦see the statement about Indiana Jones and āWhat Were You THINKING?!ā
To the apologists? While casual sex isnāt taboo under Buddhism, sexual promiscuity is considered a form of abuse.
Oh, Manwƫ the Elder King, I just looked at that article you referenced about Indiana Jones.. and. Ugh. Ugh: this is every single shade of gross.
Lucas actually threw around the idea of Indiana Jones having sex with a girl under 15 because if she was any older it āwouldnāt be interesting⦠ā
Watching movies you loved as a child is a fascinating way to learn about what you cared about back then, versus what catches your attention
Thisā¦. actually goes a long way towards explaining some of the content relating to sex and marriage in not just the movies, but the Clone Wars series. (I am convinced Filoniās attitudes are no better, and could even be worse. )
Hence:
Jedi can sleep around as much as they want, as long as they donāt become āattachedā
Which by extension means there is nothing wrong with them paying for sex, an inherently exploitative action.
Presumably, male Jedi are not required to take responsibility for any illegitimate offspring they sire, although Lucas never talked about that it can reasonably be inferred from his statements.
All it all we have a *very* one-sided view of relationships which gives the Jedi most of the power yet places none of the responsibility on their shoulders.
ā¦and they tell us Anidala is a fundamentally bad and abusive relationship. On that matter, many in SW fandom uphold Obitine to be a counterbalance, and therefore a model āhealthyā relationship (looking at *you* @hannagoldworthy) - yet everything you say refutes that.
Their ārelationshipā is based entirely on the encounter they had as teenagers - which presumably involved Kenobi having sex with the girl he was supposed to be assigned to gaurd. Bear in mind that JAs often loudly object to Anakin romancing Padme when he was supposed to be protecting her, even though their relationship was entirely chaste and they were both adults. Yet they have no problem with Kenobi having engaged in such behaviour.
Further, Kenobiās youthful dalliance ended with him being basically ordered by Yoda to break things off with her. He says as much to Anakin in Season 6 of the Clone Wars. So when push came to shove, he chose the Order over her.
Now, in the previous Season and a couple of times before that we had a couple of these trying -to -be -epic romance moments in which Kenobi says he would have left the Jedi if only sheād asked him to- but I donāt buy it for an instant. He had to make that choice, and we *know* what he chose. Besides, there are plenty of lines in the series which suggest Kenobi doesnāt respect Satineās beliefs or wishes: even to the point that he makes fun of her beliefs- a few times.
Also, that whole idea places the responsibility entirely on the shoulders of the woman. If Kenobi truly loved Satine, she would not have had to *ask* him. He would have chosen her of his own free will. As the above suggests, we have every reason to believe he would not have taken her wishes into account when faced with such an important decision.
Now for the controversial part, and the part which makes my personal troll scream in outrage⦠I believe Satine was always doomed because she was only ever created for Obi Wan, as his ālove interestā and was always going to be killed off to give him āman painā.
You see this reflected a lot in fandom. They speak of Satine, if at all, only at her death, and not as a person of inherent value who lost her life- but because of how much sad-sads her death caused to a man. Her dying is just counted to the tally of his āinfinite sadnessā which by turn exists entirely to make him look good.
I heard about what Lucas suggested with Indiana Jones and Marion Ravenwoodās past (nearly made him a pedophilic creep, and he thought THAT would have been something the audience would have been entertained by?! As much as Iām not fond of Spielberg after some of his antics especially lately, at least he had enough humanity to be against the idea back then. And quite frankly, I REALLY donāt want to know what must have happened in Marionās past before meeting Indy if she was already promiscuous as a 12 year old in that nixed idea, since that would imply she was sexually abusedā¦). Makes me wonder why the heck God didnāt obliterate Indiana during that climax, closed eyes or not (since God and his son Jesus made it VERY clear they donāt support it at all. That ending literally traumatized me to such an extent that I have an extremely WARPED sense of God as a result.). And I thought the Jedi had protagonist-centered moralityā¦
And as much as I respect Anidala as a ship and am very much willing to go through fire to defend it, I do still have one gripe about it, and itās less the ship itself and more certain⦠directing choices Lucas made in TPM. I know canonically Padme and Anakin were meant to be four years apart in age, but due to Lucas deciding to cast Natalie Portman and Jake Lloyd as Padme and Anakin, respectively (who at the time of the films were 18 and 10, respectively), it ended up coming a bit TOO close to resembling a May-December romance/cougar relationship (and I suspect THAT directing decision was most likely a holdover from that idea Lucas had for Raiders). It would have been a bit more palatable to have an actual 14 year old girl play Padme at that time while saving Natalie Portman for AOTC. Or, if they absolutely MUST have Portman play Padme during that time, at least doll her up to plausibly look 14 (you know, like how they dolled up Moaning Myrtleās actress so sheād plausibly look like a middle schooler when she was actually in her thirties at the time she played her in The Chamber of Secrets).
And yeah, definitely agree with you that what Lucas stated about sexual relationships, especially for Jedi, was extremely bad and sickening. This is more like the crap that Jean-Paul Sartre and Simone de Beauvoir cooked up. Seriously, Anidalaās abusive? If anything, that was probably one of the healthiest relationships in Star Wars.
LoveĀ āem and LeaveĀ āem
Anakin: Falls in love with Padme when heās assigned to protect her. Fandom: āHeās so selfish! Their relationship is so inappropriate and it stops him doing his job!ā
Obi Wan: Hooked up with Satine as a teenager when on assignment on Mandalore and probably got her pregnant Fandom: āObitine are the best couple in Star Wars and its so wonderful he has a son!ā
This is a quote from one of @tragicfantasy-girlās posts. It made me laugh, but I also wanted to point at the serious side of this too. There is a very important contrast here and Iāve been meaning to talk about this for awhile.
The Jedi Order forbids marriages but allows hook-ups. This is not a good thing. I I hope I donāt need to explain whyĀ āloveĀ āem and leaveĀ āemā should not be considered the gold standard for relationships. (Then again, the Jedi donāt approve of committed relationships so thatās fine to them, but itās certainly not healthy.)
The above understanding also means that, while a Jedi cannot make a commitment to anyone, they can theoretically use them. In the worst cases, it can encourage objectification and/or abandonment in the interest of that they callĀ ānon-attachment.āĀ And by abandonment, I donāt just mean their partner.
I think we see this very clearly in the contrast between Anakin and Padme and Obi-Wan and Satine. Anakin is undeniably attracted to Padme, and if physical attraction were all that mattered to either of them, thatās fine.
Anakin, however, for all his faults, is not interested in that. He respects Padme. We see this all throughout AotC. He honors her boundaries. He demonstrates admiration for her and the work sheās done. He supports her.Ā He wants so much more than just to satisfy his lust.
Later, in RotS, when Padme tells Anakin she is pregnant, he supports her immediately. Scandal or no scandal, he wonāt abandon her. He is going to be there for her and the baby no matter what. He seriously steps up where many men fail to. Itās quite admirable, whatever the Jedi say. Thereās many a woman in a crisis pregnancy who has not had nearly so much support.
In comparison, we have Obi-Wan who honors the Jedi Code. He hooks up with Satine on a mission. I grant he seems to care about her, but the Jedi way means he will leave her heart-broken. Every relationship Obi-Wan enters into, he enters into knowing it will end. Heāll just abandon them. Where emotions are involved, and they tend to get involved, thatās no kindness.
And the implication is that Korkie is his son. Letās assume he is. Does Satine ever try to contact Obi-Wan about this? Maybe she does. Even if she did, I doubt the message would ever reach him. People cannot simply contact the Jedi Order. Is she going to petition the Senate about her crisis pregnancy? Yeah, right. So, now sheās alone and pregnant.Ā
Then, even if he did know, whatās Obi-Wan going to do? If Korkieās Force-Sensitive, heāll just go to the Temple. And if heās not, is a Jedi going to called up for child-support? Somehow I doubt it. How do you even begin to get a Jedi on the hook for that? See above about petitioning the Senate. How much do Jedi even make anyway? Probably just a teeny monthly stipend, if that. The Order provides for them after all. Is the Order going to provide for all the potential illegitimate children out there? Somehow, I doubt it, unless they have the Force and induct them into the Order.
And in the unlikely event that Obi-Wan both knows about his son and has to pay child support, Obi-Wanās not going to visit that child. He wonāt do more than maybe send one letter, if that, because attachment, especially to oneās biological family, is forbidden. Anakin canāt even visit or contact his mother in slavery. Thereās no way Obi-Wanās visiting his kid heās never met whoās being raised in a decent environment. In fact, he doesnāt. And thatās the Jedi way.Ā
And if thatās the Jedi way, it is wrong. That is deeply, deeply messed up.Ā
And you know what else? The Force does seem to have a hereditary element to it. It would not surprise me if the Order promotes casual sex knowing that there will be unintended pregnancies, because that just means more Force-Sensitive kids for them. Itās not like having the Force is not significantly rare after all. They could use the numbers.
tl;dr It seems sad (and wrong) to me that a loving and committed relationship where people raise their kids together is seen as dangerous-you-are-headed-to-the-Dark-Side. But loving and leaving someone, abandoning your kids, and forsaking commitment/responsibility, especially if they donāt have the Force is noble-good-light-side. There is something very wrong with that picture. Even more so when the former is forbidden, and the latter is encouraged.
Okay. Got some coffee. Got some downtime. Letās roll.
First off, Lucas can be a big case of āopen mouth, insert whole legā and/or Rowling-grade cringe. Great example? Going on record saying Indiana Jones was schtupping an eleven-year-old girl. Yes. He actually said that. Ew. Iāll wait for yāall to get the brain bleach. I kinda treat his āJedi can have sex, but not attachmentā in the same āWhat in the HELL, dude?!ā way.
The whole concept was one that some of the harsh critics of the franchise, such as David Brin (writer of the Uplift series and The Postman) and Athena Andreadis breathed fire on. Andreadis pointed out how overwhelmingly male the filmās Jedi were (the female Jedi were background set pieces in the films and didnāt get speaking roles, aside from Jocasta Nu being the prototypical clueless old lady librarian), and pointed out that allowing sexual release (with prostitutes and other casual liaisons) but not allowing marriage or long term relationships was a common way to keep young men emotionally stunted and needy enough to become unquestioning cannon fodder for the old men running things.Ā
Brin caustically pointed out that the whole āsorry, babe, canāt get attached,ā utterly reeks of immature male fantasy where someone can sleep around with impunity, and has a handy reason to rebuff any requests for more substantial commitment. As far as the inevitable illegitimate children such a āhit it and quit itā policy would leave? Lucas probably didnāt think it through. Heās a cisgender, heterosexual and sexually conservative guy and a product of the mid-century where the whole āgirl of the weekā trope was more acceptable.And, wellā¦see the statement about Indiana Jones and āWhat Were You THINKING?!ā
To the apologists? While casual sex isnāt taboo under Buddhism, sexual promiscuity is considered a form of abuse.
Oh, Manwƫ the Elder King, I just looked at that article you referenced about Indiana Jones.. and. Ugh. Ugh: this is every single shade of gross.
Lucas actually threw around the idea of Indiana Jones having sex with a girl under 15 because if she was any older it āwouldnāt be interesting⦠ā
Watching movies you loved as a child is a fascinating way to learn about what you cared about back then, versus what catches your attention
Thisā¦. actually goes a long way towards explaining some of the content relating to sex and marriage in not just the movies, but the Clone Wars series. (I am convinced Filoniās attitudes are no better, and could even be worse. )
Hence:
Jedi can sleep around as much as they want, as long as they donāt become āattachedā
Which by extension means there is nothing wrong with them paying for sex, an inherently exploitative action.
Presumably, male Jedi are not required to take responsibility for any illegitimate offspring they sire, although Lucas never talked about that it can reasonably be inferred from his statements.
All it all we have a *very* one-sided view of relationships which gives the Jedi most of the power yet places none of the responsibility on their shoulders.
ā¦and they tell us Anidala is a fundamentally bad and abusive relationship. On that matter, many in SW fandom uphold Obitine to be a counterbalance, and therefore a model āhealthyā relationship (looking at *you* @hannagoldworthy) - yet everything you say refutes that.
Their ārelationshipā is based entirely on the encounter they had as teenagers - which presumably involved Kenobi having sex with the girl he was supposed to be assigned to gaurd. Bear in mind that JAs often loudly object to Anakin romancing Padme when he was supposed to be protecting her, even though their relationship was entirely chaste and they were both adults. Yet they have no problem with Kenobi having engaged in such behaviour.
Further, Kenobiās youthful dalliance ended with him being basically ordered by Yoda to break things off with her. He says as much to Anakin in Season 6 of the Clone Wars. So when push came to shove, he chose the Order over her.
Now, in the previous Season and a couple of times before that we had a couple of these trying -to -be -epic romance moments in which Kenobi says he would have left the Jedi if only sheād asked him to- but I donāt buy it for an instant. He had to make that choice, and we *know* what he chose. Besides, there are plenty of lines in the series which suggest Kenobi doesnāt respect Satineās beliefs or wishes: even to the point that he makes fun of her beliefs- a few times.
Also, that whole idea places the responsibility entirely on the shoulders of the woman. If Kenobi truly loved Satine, she would not have had to *ask* him. He would have chosen her of his own free will. As the above suggests, we have every reason to believe he would not have taken her wishes into account when faced with such an important decision.
Now for the controversial part, and the part which makes my personal troll scream in outrage⦠I believe Satine was always doomed because she was only ever created for Obi Wan, as his ālove interestā and was always going to be killed off to give him āman painā.
You see this reflected a lot in fandom. They speak of Satine, if at all, only at her death, and not as a person of inherent value who lost her life- but because of how much sad-sads her death caused to a man. Her dying is just counted to the tally of his āinfinite sadnessā which by turn exists entirely to make him look good.
I heard about what Lucas suggested with Indiana Jones and Marion Ravenwoodās past (nearly made him a pedophilic creep, and he thought THAT would have been something the audience would have been entertained by?! As much as Iām not fond of Spielberg after some of his antics especially lately, at least he had enough humanity to be against the idea back then. And quite frankly, I REALLY donāt want to know what must have happened in Marionās past before meeting Indy if she was already promiscuous as a 12 year old in that nixed idea, since that would imply she was sexually abusedā¦). Makes me wonder why the heck God didnāt obliterate Indiana during that climax, closed eyes or not (since God and his son Jesus made it VERY clear they donāt support it at all. That ending literally traumatized me to such an extent that I have an extremely WARPED sense of God as a result.). And I thought the Jedi had protagonist-centered moralityā¦
And as much as I respect Anidala as a ship and am very much willing to go through fire to defend it, I do still have one gripe about it, and itās less the ship itself and more certain⦠directing choices Lucas made in TPM. I know canonically Padme and Anakin were meant to be four years apart in age, but due to Lucas deciding to cast Natalie Portman and Jake Lloyd as Padme and Anakin, respectively (who at the time of the films were 18 and 10, respectively), it ended up coming a bit TOO close to resembling a May-December romance/cougar relationship (and I suspect THAT directing decision was most likely a holdover from that idea Lucas had for Raiders). It would have been a bit more palatable to have an actual 14 year old girl play Padme at that time while saving Natalie Portman for AOTC. Or, if they absolutely MUST have Portman play Padme during that time, at least doll her up to plausibly look 14 (you know, like how they dolled up Moaning Myrtleās actress so sheād plausibly look like a middle schooler when she was actually in her thirties at the time she played her in The Chamber of Secrets).
And yeah, definitely agree with you that what Lucas stated about sexual relationships, especially for Jedi, was extremely bad and sickening. This is more like the crap that Jean-Paul Sartre and Simone de Beauvoir cooked up. Seriously, Anidalaās abusive? If anything, that was probably one of the healthiest relationships in Star Wars.