i’m writing my dissertation on achilles’ grief through the perspective of plato’s symposium and the ascent of love. i’m happy to say i’ve used the quote ‘quasi-wife’ in regards to patroclus and it is entirely valid to do so
i will try! my intention is to get it published if it’s of a good enough quality to do so. in the meantime my ask box is always open to discuss it. it’s sort of my bread and butter right now lol
if anyone is curious my specific topic is discussing achilles’ love and grief for patroclus shown through the lens of plato’s theory of ascent in love. but achilles himself is sort of my specialty in the classics genre so i could talk my head off about him regardless
I would love to know if there's any part of Plato's theory that doesn't apply to your thesis (a counterargument) that you debunk in your paper? If that's not too big of a spoiler haha
Also curious if there's anywhere specific you plan to publish it?
i’m not entirely sure yet. things like that (and if i do at all) will probably wait until i get closer to or having done finished it. i’ll post any details if i do!
i’m writing my dissertation on achilles’ grief through the perspective of plato’s symposium and the ascent of love. i’m happy to say i’ve used the quote ‘quasi-wife’ in regards to patroclus and it is entirely valid to do so
i will try! my intention is to get it published if it’s of a good enough quality to do so. in the meantime my ask box is always open to discuss it. it’s sort of my bread and butter right now lol
if anyone is curious my specific topic is discussing achilles’ love and grief for patroclus shown through the lens of plato’s theory of ascent in love. but achilles himself is sort of my specialty in the classics genre so i could talk my head off about him regardless
pls tell us more abt patroclus and his role as the quasi-wife to achilles. i find it so interesting! but (i love patrochilles so no hate) some ppl say that they weren't exactly romantic since the greeks viewed queer relationships differently? but idk
hi anon! i’d love to answer!
(before i start i’m going to give the heads up that this is all from the top of my head. i don’t have my copy on me at the moment.)
so the term ‘quasi-wife’ in terms of patroclus comes from emily wilson. you can watch her full speech on youtube, but i’ll just link the clip that she’s referencing it here for context and convenience sake.
so when i’m discussing patroclus as achilles’ quasi-wife, it’s actually in a lot less of a romantic context than you expect, but i do personally view their relationship as romantic. when we’re talking about him being a ‘quasi-wife’ we’re talking less about the direct romantic connotations of the relationship and more of how patroclus takes on the role of the wife for achilles.
in book 9, homer mentions that patroclus is the one to serve achilles and their guests. this job tends to go to a woman, and you would expect it to be done by a slave woman rather than your comrade. achilles is not short in those, but patroclus is the one to do it. of course you can make the case that automedon takes this role up after patroclus dies, but to me it just feels like he’s filling in for patroclus as a friend rather than taking up some wifely mantle.
achilles also pampers patroclus to a degree, like a husband buying his wife nice things. off of the top of my head, in the same scene i just mentioned we learn that the slave woman patroclus sleeps beside is one achilles gave to him. he’s also much more receptive to patroclus than to others. there’s a mention of cleopatra and meleager and how meleager is only moved by cleopatra’s tears, something we see paralleled between achilles and patroclus when patroclus is begging achilles to rejoin the war.
and of course there is achilles’ famous grief which we can, from a literary perspective, link to helen and menelaus. much like menelaus starts the trojan war for the loss of helen, achilles turns the tide of the war all together for the loss of patroclus. though i find it really interesting that when patroclus dies achilles takes on a lot of wifely roles. his grieving process is very womanly, especially when he gathers patroclus’ ashes which even the epic itself mentions a woman would’ve done. it’s implied that they had a much more equal relationship than the traditional male/male relationship would have, with a clear understanding of the erastes and eromenos (though i have my own gripes with the limitations historians place on defining queer relationships into this dynamic but that’s for another day). patroclus has to be reminded of his position as the older of the two to guide him, for example.
i say all this to say that the ‘quasi-wife’ definition is far less romantic than it sounds, though my dissertation is written with the assumption that their relationship is romantic. it’s completely valid to interpret them as platonic, anon, it’s up to interpretation and i can’t be the one to sway either or. i personally don’t like to base their relationship on pederasty, though, i think modern depictions of these dynamics are limiting and ignorant to a much broader culture and to evidence we have in ancient greek literature. again, another story for another day.
i’m writing my dissertation on achilles’ grief through the perspective of plato’s symposium and the ascent of love. i’m happy to say i’ve used the quote ‘quasi-wife’ in regards to patroclus and it is entirely valid to do so
from my limited understanding asking a bunch of rome historians whether caesar actually wanted to be a king is a rough equivalent to eris throwing the golden apple at peleus and thetis' wedding in terms of causing chaos and confusion
(possibly) unpopular opinion but i’m not a fan of the version where helen isn’t actually taken to troy bc she’s replaced by a clone and is kept away from the war. it feels like it takes away from her experiences and like it’s just preserving her sexuality to keep her pure to menelaus, you get me? like how could a woman have sex with another man (either consensually or not) and still be desirable?
The Reaction of Achilles (upon hearing the news of Patroclus' death), an Iliad analysis
So if you remember my old post about the relationship of Achilles and Patroclus, which you can find here, I have commented upon the fact that his reaction on the news of the death of his companion even before he got the actual body, can be potentially much more ominous than what people think
I am pretty sure that most of you came in contact with interpretations before such as Achilles collapsing on the ground screaming his lungs out (and for a good reason given that many remember how his mother has heard him scream and arrived with her entourage to see what is going on), or the reaction you get to imagine from popular retellings either before or after the arrival of the body with Achilles reacting vocally or verbally almost immediately. The moment, particularly that first scenario has been done before even by comics which seems sped up due to the lack of framing or potentially the feeling of inability to capture such an intense expression of pain on paper.
All of the above is understandable.
However allow me to say that this is not entirely the case and that the real thing can be more ominous than what people think!
Therefore I thought it would be useful to make a separate post about this in a full analysis on a step by step build up till the climax of it.
->The Anticipation
While they were fighting like raging fire for the body, Antilochus ran with his fast feet to Achilles to tell him the news. He found him before the upright like horn ships, already considering in his mind what had already happened. Vexed as he was he was saying in his brave heart:
(Translation by me)
Achilles was already sitting before the ships and he was already perplexed and vexed. He was already sensing what Antilochus had come to tell him. He seemed already fearing or daresay aware of the result. He was sitting there in silence. Homer mentions to us how he was "thinking in his heart" or better "spoke mentally to himself" (εἶπε πρὸς ὃν μεγαλήτορα θυμόν) He doesn't dare to speak. He "speaks" mentally. In his heart. He is silent, silent in anticipation and agony. One can feel his heart already jumping in fear. His fears are double confirmed when he sees Antilochus run on his own. He can tell by the body language that the news are not good. And yet his thoughts are not yet certain. In fact there is some hidden hope in him:
Oh no! What happened now that drives the long-haired Achaeans back towards the ships, so distraught by fear within the plain? Let it be not that the gods have more woes for my soul just like my mother predicted for me and she had told me that while I was still alive the best of Myrmidons would die at the hands of the Trojans! Or worse what if the noble son of Menoetios is dead! The reckless fool! But surely I had ordered him to come back to the ships after he had repelled the fire of battle and not rush to fight with Hector!
(Translation by me)
Achilles is contemplating the worst! He knows deep down that this is what happened! In fact even now he half-prays that this is not what he fears. He even remembers his mother's words that "the best of Myrmidons" would die while he was still alive (in fact the word "to die" is given in a very poetic way by Homer by using the words "will lose the light of the sun" -> λείψειν φάος ἠελίοιο). Every inch of his body knows this to be true and yet he still hopes that this is not so! He still hopes it is all a wrong assumption!
-> Hope Shattered
He was thinking thus over and over in his mind and in his soul but then came close to him the son of peerless Nestor, pouring hot tears and he brought the terrible news
"Oh I am so sorry, son of Peleus the great warrior, that I have to bring you such terrible news, so terrible as I would never will! Patroclus is dead! Over his body the two sides are fighting and he is naked, for his arms Hector of shining helm has taken!"
(Translation by me)
No matter how much Achilles tries to make himself believe otherwise, hope is shattered from moment one when he sees the tears of Antilochus (δάκρυα θερμὰ χέων) and it certainly is turned to dust when he hears the terrible news and one is more terrible than the other.
Patroclus is dead (in the text "lies down" or "is on the ground" or more simply "has fallen" κεῖται)
They don't have his body yet for both sides are fighting still (νέκυος δὲ δὴ ἀμφιμάχονται)
He is naked (νέκυος γυμνοῦ) and therefore dishonored
The facts are given climatically, one might say with increased severity. Not only is Patroclus dead (Achilles' worst nightmare), they also have not yet secured his body (Achilles cannot even be certain he can offer him a funeral) but he is also stripped naked from the armor (his body has been partially dishonored for the armor of the warrior was stripped off him).
-> Shock and Silence
One should notice that the most natural reaction is not vocal in these cases but rather silence and total shock. Because that was what happened to Achilles that very moment. He practically collapses! And if you remember from my other post the reaction is rather heartbreaking!
So they spoke and black mist of distress covered him: With both his hands he gathered smoky sand and he poured it over his head and disfigured his face: his nectarous chiton turned black with ashes. And he himself dropped in the dirt and stretched over pulling out his hair in lament with his hands for his beloved. The slaves given as war price to Achilles and Patroclus, released a great cry of sadness and they approached all to the sides of mourning Achilles, beating their chests with their hands, and their knees each. Also Antilochus with them was lamenting and pouring tears holding the hands of Achilles: for he was moaning with his noble heart: worried that he would cut his throat with iron (here: a knife).
(Translation by me)
[See also my other analysis post for the same passage]
Of course people are more or less familiar with it but as I mention to my other post, I want you to pay attention to the events one by one:
Distress covers him like a shadow (ἄχεος νεφέλη ἐκάλυψε μέλαινα).
His face immediately darkens with this sorrow! The shattered hope that I mentioned above is being presented in the grimmest way possible by Homer!
Gathers sand and ash with his hands and pours it all over himself (ἑλὼν κόνιν αἰθαλόεσσαν χεύατο κὰκ κεφαλῆς)
He scratches his cheeks with his hands (χαρίεν δ᾽ ᾔσχυνε πρόσωπον)
He falls on the ground (αὐτὸς δ᾽ ἐν κονίῃσι μέγας μεγαλωστὶ τανυσθεὶς κεῖτο)
Pulls his hair out (χερσὶ κόμην ᾔσχυνε δαΐζων)
Notice what misses from the passage so far?
The sound!
Not even once in all these actions that Achilles performs in his ultimate pain and distress do we hear a sound mark by Homer. There is not even one single mention to sound so far. In fact the first sound mark of the passage happens after the slave women come out of the tent and only then we get the first sound mark. And guess what.
It is not a scream!
Not yet. Achilles is in such a state of grief and shock that he hasn't screamed yet! There is one sound mark that we see and that is a groan or a moan of pain! ὃ δ᾽ ἔστενε κυδάλιμον κῆρ says Homer "he was groaning with his noble heart" or even better "he was groaning his heart out".
Throughout the passage Achilles barely mentions anything but action but after a little while we do hear the first sound reference in the text, which is a sound of a groan rather than a scream. Do you know what this means?
=> Achilles just poured ashes over himself, scratched his face, totally changed in his pain in a matter of seconds and eventually dropped himself on his knees and on the ground; WITHOUT MAKING A SOUND AT ALL OR BARELY ANY! <=
That in my mind is even more ominous than Achilles scream right away! You can see the shock, the pain striking him straight in his heart and he can't even find the voice, just like when someone punches you in the stomach! He makes no sound and barely groans just like someone has been striken down senseless in a matter of seconds!
You can imagine him almost tremble all over, barely breathing as if he cannot draw breath anymore, hands over his face or in his hair literally pulling it out in his silent pain!
The scene is so disturbing that Antilochus holds his hand because he fears (δείδιε) that Achilles might cut his own throat (μὴ λαιμὸν ἀπαμήσειε) with his dagger! Notice how Achilles is in such a state of shock that he can't even do that technically! Antilochus is holding his hands (χεῖρας ἔχων Ἀχιλῆος) but the verb "fear" over something like "preventing" or "stopping" shows that Achilles has not made any such move yet but he seems perfectly capable of! Antilochus and the women are in fact the only people in the scene that are making any actual or louder sounds:
ἀκηχέμεναι μεγάλ᾽ ἴαχον ("screaming loudly in pain") -> the slave women
ὀδύρετο δάκρυα λείβων ("lamenting and shedding tears") -> Antilochus
Achilles' pain is among them so intense because so far it is the most silent of all! All the others are wailing or crying around him and yet Achilles feels as if he is barely making any dead sounds!
-> And Then the Explosion
Amidst all this lament, Achilles finally finds his voice as if all the breath he tried to draw finally settled in his lungs and finally his pain that was making his heart pump up as if ready to burst, now finally is released:
He cried out woefully: and his noble mother heard him where she was within the deep sea by her old father's side, and immediately released a shriek and all the divine Neriads living deep into the sea gathered around her.
(Translation by me)
Finally Achilles releases his great cry of pain and distress (σμερδαλέον δ᾽ ᾤμωξεν) and NOW is the moment that his mother hears him even from the depths of the sea! And as if on a queue she also screams back in equal distress for her son's unimaginable pain (κώκυσέν). His voice was heard so deep that his mother heard him in the sea and not only that, she called out in return hearing the ultimate pain in her son's voice! It is NOW that the infamous cry of pain happened!
It was the climax of a silent, intense scene...not the entirety of it! This is why it is so disturbing and powerful!
Conclusions:
Although I do understand completely people connecting the ultimate pain with an immediate cry or screaming, in reality the ultimate expression of pain is silence. When the greatest pain strikes you, you are left unable to react! You might freeze or find yourself unable to breathe! The true reaction happens after a while
The cry of Achilles was not the full scene, it was the climax!
Which is also why, in my opinion, the rest of the scene is much more disturbing and much more ominous, showing the descend of Achilles towards madness. And the scene was heavily implied from the beginning, given how Achilles started in silence and ended in his cry. His silence came from anticipation, from piled up worry and finally that piled up worry but also hidden hope hit him in the stomach and he could not react but with his body. His voice followed.
But what do you guys think? Let me know ^_^
~*~*~*~
Some of my other Achilles-related Analysis and thoughts:
Achilles being on the edge
The importance of silence (thanks to @deadbaguette)
Achilles personality from his upbringing
Achilles in Statius 1
Achilles in Statius 2
Achilles mourning at the pyre
Achilles pyrrhic dance
On Achilles' death and Achilles' Tendon
"Devil's Advocate" on Achilles (thanks to @justvea18)
My Photos from the statue of Dying Achilles from the Achillion in Corfu:
💬 13 🔁 13 ❤️ 60 · Some images from Achillion in Kerkyra from my time when I went there in the recent past (the restoration of the statues
can’t blame clytemnestra for losing her shit if i spent my entire life being the twin sister of the most beautiful woman ever and not getting the same recognition only for my husband who killed my kid to bring back a side bitch i’d have done worse
okay hear me out. The trojan war as a mockumentary. Each season is on year 8-10 episodes. season 1 starts with the wedding of Thetis & Peleus - Thetis sits on the beach in her wedding dress looking at the sea "i wish i could drown them all" - & ends with the sacrifice of Iphigenie. Both sides gets viewed. the final episode ends with the ships leaving the beach. Odysseus's last line is "& may the gods bless us with a calm journy home" *Thunderstorm in the background while the scene goes black*
at what point do you just have to accept that your freak of a boyfriend is going to keep your corpse rotting in his bed for a socially and hygienically unacceptable period of time. like ‘yeah. i figured he’d do this. let me talk some sense into him he won’t listen to anyone else. trust me, how do you think i got here?’
sometimes you just have to sit with all the things that are commonplace in the modern world that those from the trojan war would have a stroke knowing about. and i’m not talking about technology or medicine.
yeah that’s cool and all but there’s people in our lifetimes that have lived without smartphones and, like i said, not even factoring things like technology there’s so much that we consider something everyone knows about that those from the trojan war had no idea about.
going with the assumption that it’s set in the 12th century bc, there are way more interesting things that they had no idea about, like lemons (1st century bc) or peaches (4000bc) and domesticated chickens (domesticated between around 8bc but didn’t arrive until ~6th century bc) show a trojan a coin and they’d have no idea what it is because they’re older than money (1000bc).
sometimes you just have to sit with all the things that are commonplace in the modern world that those from the trojan war would have a stroke knowing about. and i’m not talking about technology or medicine.
"He's half of my soul, as the poets say" this, "Name one hero who was happy" that...
But like, can we talk about how beautifully tragic and tragically beautiful some of the original quotes from the Iliad are too?? And these are not even all of them!
"Oh, how I wish that neither the Trojans nor the Achaeans could escape death! If only the two of us survived, so that we could bring down the sacred walls of Troy together, the two of us alone..."
"But his mother hadn't told him about the tragic event yet; he wasn't still aware that the most beloved [philtatos] of all his comrades had died."
"As Achilles heard those words [about Patroclus' death], a dark, deadly cloud of anguish engulfed him; with both hands he grabbed plenty of dust from the earth, letting it fall upon his head and smear his marvelous face and clothes. He flopped down onto the ground, disfiguring his body with his hands, tearing the locks of hair out of his head. [...]
Meanwhile, Antilochus sobbed and cried silently, holding tightly still the hands of weeping Achilles, preventing him from grabbing a blade and slicing his own throat.
He let out a heart-wrenching cry, so loud that his mother heard him from the bottom of the ocean."
"What sweetness, what kind of relief is left for me, if my dear Patroclus is no more, him whom I cherished more than all my comrades, whom I valued as my own life, loved as my own soul? I have lost him. [...] And now I shall go find that killer [Hector], the man who deprived me of my dear life."
"She found her beloved son laying down with his arms wrapped around Patroclus' body, crying bitterly. And so did many other companions weep around him."
"You shall all die a bitter death by my hand, each one of you shall pay for what you did to Patroclus, killing him by the ships while I was not there."
"But I will never forget Patroclus, not as long as I live, not as long as I'm steady on my limbs. And even in death, in the realm of Hades where the dead are forgotten, the memory of my beloved comrade will live for all eternity."
[Patroclus' ghost appears to Achilles in a dream]
"You're sleeping, Achilles: have you forgotten about me? You cherished me while I was alive; are you going to neglect me now that I'm dead? [...] Give me your hand, I beg you. For once my body is properly burned, I shall no more come back from the realm of Hades. No more shall we take sweet counsel as we did when I was alive, the two of us alone, away from our comrades. A terrible Fate has caught me, one I was predestined to since birth, and it will soon be your turn to fulfill your destiny, and die by the walls of Troy. So I am asking just one more thing of you, I beg you, grant my wish: don't let my bones be separated from yours, Achilles. Let them rest together, just as we grew up together in your house [...] I would like one single urn to bring together my ashes and yours; the golden urn your mother gave you."
[And Achilles replies]
"Why, my beloved soul, have you come to me, why are you giving me such orders? Of course, I'll obey, I will do everything you wish. But now, come here, come closer to me. Let me hold you: and let us forget about our sorrows by holding each other, at least for a short while.
Thus he spoke, and immediately tried to reach out to him: but he couldn't. The soul slipped away from his grasp, screeching and disappearing back inside the earth, dissolving into smoke. Achilles' hands clasped involuntarily, and he stood up, full of surprise and pain. He felt the urge to cry again."
(I did my best, personally translating the quotes from the original Greek text like the literature noob I am lol. bye I'm going to cry again in peace now)
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