Interview with GHOST and TRIBULATION
TOBIAS FORGE and JONATHAN HULTÉN have a lot in common. While one of them currently slips into the role of the exalted charmer Cardinal Copia as the singer of GHOST, the introverted TRIBULATION guitarist on stage transforms into a fascinating, expressive being who exists beyond genre and gender boundaries. What is real, what is an artificial figure? METAL HAMMER met both of them during their tour together for a conversation that allows far more than just a look behind the scenes of two of the most popular metal bands at the moment, but also unexpectedly intimate insights.
Tobias, originally you didn’t want to be the singer of Ghost. Did the mask help you to come to terms with this exposed role?
Tobias Forge: Yes, well, at least from today’s point of view. But I never wanted to be unknown.
What function does your stage make-up have, Jonathan?
Jonathan Hultén: It helps me to put myself in a certain mood. The idea behind it is to isolate and reinforce a fraction of myself, an aspect of my personality. To immerse myself in this is an experience beyond the everyday state of mind.
Strengthen also Cardinal Copia or Papa Emeritus facets of your personality, Tobias?
Tobias Forge: I’m not shy, but I’m not as sociable as Cardinal Copia - and also not a “physical clown” like him. What I do is a kind of mixed bag. I imitate people I find funny or interesting.
Basically, the way actors do it. If you asked Robert DeNiro how he came up with the young Don Corieone, he would probably say: Well, there was this guy in my old neighborhood… The costume gives you the opportunity to completely surrender yourself in that moment and just be that new person. That’s interesting, because you only reveal it to a few people for a limited time. You don’t have to see how that person lives the other 22 hours of the day. Like with actors: James Bond is cool because you only see certain sides of him. Never in the bathroom or shower. Well, not in the toilet, in the shower. But always in the company of a snake or something he kills.
How long does the transformation take?
Tobias Forge: But you finished much sooner than I did.
Jonathan Hultén: For pragmatic reasons. I like to get it done as soon as possible so as not to get in a bind later. How about you?
Tobias Forge: We have a very tight schedule. Pretty much exactly one hour before the show starts I walk in the door as Tobias and come out as someone else.
What does this transformation do to you?
Jonathan Hultén: You have to enter a stage with emphasis. So it’s good to be prepared.
Tobias Forge: And that’s what happens within this hour. You slowly start to move differently… I love being a different person for two hours and then changing back. But I need some time for that, usually I stay alone for an hour after the show.
Jonathan Hultén: That’s good. As far as I can, I try to do the same. Mostly by doing something that I can be introspective about… …carry things back and forth or something.
Tobias Forge: I think that’s very important. There is potential suffering in art, especially in mental health. The smaller the discrepancy between yourself and the person you are portraying on stage, the harder it is to deal with. If you are merely associated with your stage character, people expect you to behave like that in real life.
And that can be problematic…
Tobias Forge: Exactly, because they created this super human being who can do anything, who has a carte blanche. Everyone applauds, everyone laughs, and everything you do is funny or cool. And if you take it to the bar afterwards… There are bad examples of people who can’t get down in normal life, become alcoholics or, well, die.
Jonathan Hultén: Sure, all that can be destructive. But in my case it was very helpful to discover my more explosive, extroverted sides. And to dare to give them more space, because privately I am quite shy. That’s also part of the process of building up, which takes a long time.
I gradually gain self-confidence from this, so that I can now express myself better in everyday situations.
Tobias Forge: I think they are one and the same. It’s like mental martial arts, where the person who doesn’t like the fight, but still has to face it - within the limits of the dojo, of course, so as not to hurt anyone. And, yes, art is basically good for anyone who has the desire to become someone else. It’s a generalization, but I think there’s a lot of truth in it: many artists choose this path because they weren’t very popular at school. Or they can’t come out of themselves, but their art offers them an opportunity to do so. It’s fun to go on stage, to transform and feed off the energy or admiration.
How you interact with the audience has changed over the years.
Tobias Forge: Sure. The masked person has an advantage of about 70 concerts, so 1,000 hours on stage. If I had given myself the same amount of time to develop without the make-up, without the role, just with acoustic guitar, I might have created a completely different stage personality. But this is completely uninteresting for me, because I prefer this super character! (laughs)
Jonathan Hultén: transformation would then no longer be so dramatic, but much more subtle.
Tobias Forge: And you’d have to be comfortable in your own skin.
Jonathan Hultén: I’m working on it. (laughs)
Jonathan, your solo debut, CHANTS FROM ANOTHER PLACE, will be released soon and you will also be touring with Chelsea Wolfe. Will you be different on stage there than you are here with Tribulation?
Jonathan Hultén: It has become harder to separate the two. They are like different shades of the same color. And I’ve found that they both borrow a lot from each other. The tribulation performer exists much longer, so he has much more experience. He/she is like an archaeologist who explores an inner wildness and passion. Over the years a lot of weird stuff has been dug up and included.
On the other hand, the solo performer, who has only been around for about three yen and is still is at the beginning of the excavations. However, I expect that also here many interesting things will appear
What can we expect from you live?
Jonathan Hultén: Just like with Tribulation, the atmosphere will be very important. But apart from some dramatic excursions, the show will be mostly silent and contemplative. The silence gives more room for more complex emotions to unfold in a way that I miss in the energetic performances of Tribulation.
These in turn defy the unwritten rules of a traditional metal show, not least thanks to you. Tribulation are considered a death metal band…
Tobias Forge: I wouldn’t call you guys like that.
Do you see yourselves as pioneers? Do you enjoy being different?
Jonathan Hultén: I stopped thinking about whether people see me as stupid, weird or whatever. It’s the only way I can do it. Headbanging just wasn’t enough. I felt there had to be something bigger, some kind of ectase. This may be weird, but it feels good.
How important are grace and style to you?
Jonathan Hultén: Both are important, but it’s equally important not to be obsessively attached to them. Someone once said that grace is a combination of spontaneity and control. It’s a good rule of thumb - on and off stage. It’s always about balance. Every situation is unique and requires a unique approach.
Tobias Forge: You should be really proud of it, apart from the fact that your music is great. Your performance is dramatically different from any other. Besides the music, your physical attributes and the way you present yourself make you a very unique and interesting person. Strange, cash, different. You should definitely pursue that. Yes, I think you should see yourself as a pioneer.
Jonathan Hultén: Mm, thank you. (chuckles)
What does that do to your audience?
Tobias Forge: If you are a live musician, have an antenna for it and you don’t completely care, you always enter a symbiosis with the fans. Give and take, almost like in a physical relationship. You will try to perfect ways to give pleasure to each other. I know it sounds weird, but every decent relationship changes with age. You grow together, you have new needs or ideas. That’s why some couples bring in other people, or whips or plugs. It’s the same with you and the audience. During our second show I noticed that our audience is very positive, but I couldn’t make a rhyme out of it.
Tobias Forge: The room was filled with Hard Rock people, the kind of people I’ve been playing to since I was a teenager. But they weren’t headbanging as usual. Instead they did something else.
Tobias Forge: Yeah, they were wiggling around. (laughs) And singing and laughing, very different from what I knew from Death or Black Metal shows.
Are there any other special features of your fans?
Tobias Forge: When we played the first headliner shows in America, I noticed for the first time the gender diversity in our audience. Our fans are a lot of girls, a lot of guys, and a lot in between. We’ve always been a magnet for people who are unhappy with their gender or don’t feel they belong anywhere: Kids, many outsiders and outcasts in various fragile states.
Jonathan, Tobias’ words seem to resonate with you.
Jonathan Hultén: Yes, they do. I don’t speak for tribulation as a whole when I say this, but I personally don’t feel I belong to either gender. But I’ve never felt the need to choose either. Androgyny is what I feel most comfortable with. This tendency probably also applies to performance, whether tribulation or solo.
Tobias Forge: The best portrayal of the devil I’ve ever seen is from the movie ‘The Passion of Christ’. Satan is portrayed by a woman, but speaks in a man’s voice and thus becomes the epitome of androgyny, completely genderless. For incorporating this aspect into your stage personality, I give credit to you and the band. Especially when you get together with Adam (Zaars, guitarist of Tribulation) on stage, it seems elfish and feminine, but also masculine. This is incredibly interesting and unusual, especially in the rigid heavy metal genre with this “men are men” and “women are women” thing: Doro Pesch, girl, Manowar, guys, great. But when I think of all the metal bands I like, there are also examples of very attractive androgyny, which is not necessarily sexual. Not to mention seventies rock bands.
You have been confronted with different kinds of music and art forms from a very young age. Does that give you an artistic advantage?
Jonathan Hultén: It helps me to keep my relationship to art fresh, to get excited. Whether in childhood or in adulthood: open-mindedness helps the creative process. If you’re not afraid of opening up to all kinds of different music styles, you can find inspiration in the most surprising places. No matter where the idea comes from - the important thing is whether it works. Certainly, this is reflected in all areas of creative work. Become the medium through which the flow of inspiration flows - then collect the gold pieces that this flow carries with it and create something beautiful out of them.
Does the metal context limit your expressiveness?
Tobias Forge: I don’ t feel restricted with Ghost at all. There are only a few ideas I can’ t realize with the band, because Ghost is a combination of all the things I like about music, cinema and theatre. But if there is enough time in the future, I would love to be in a completely different band where I am not the center of attention. I am a guitarist and would like to sing backup. That corresponds to me much more.
Jonathan Hultén: I’m exploring something new, and it’s been quite interesting - and different. There are endless possibilities to discover yourself, artistically and as an artist. Only unfortunately there is not enough time.
I’m afraid that we don’t have enough time either.
Tobias Forge: Yes, but these things are existential. They are not only about art and being an artist, but also about how both are connected to the human psyche and why people, artist or not, need art to function in modern times. That, by the way, is also one of the things I appreciate about tribulation: You are artists, not just any death metal band. I don’t want to hang anybody on the fence but especially in metal many musicians claim that they make music for themselves first and foremost. That’s not true! As soon as you go on stage you want to get something back. Even GG Allin! And his gigs were really a confrontational and bad experience for every lover of the fine arts. Playing just for yourself? That’s not how it works. You either do it to please or to deliver something. People laugh, cry, clap, scream, whatever… And when they leave, they feel a little bit better. That’s entertainment!
Anja Delast/ Metal Hammer
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