No Risk, No Life

What!

[aliteralchicken]

Tim just because you were in France for your first mini series doesn’t mean it’s the only place you’re allowed to visit

[kelpiecodyne]

Tim ends up in Paris so often I'm half expecting Paris to declare Robin/Red Robin a Parisian hero and demand Gotham give him back...

[thattimdrakeguy]

One of the reasons why I don’t like favoritism in official comics is because it distorts characters to put a specific one on a pedestal.

Like how Tynion tried to make Tim so cool that he ended up writing what felt like a total different character. Making him a show-off with a hot blonde girl friend that always praised him, was good at about everything and wanted to make Gotham a Utopia.

Just a bunch of stuff that wasn’t exactly Tim’s style. Who was usually the underdog for one reason or another and never really cared for being in-charge of everything like in his Utopia plan. And was not really Batman’s lieutenant like he was shown in Tec.

It created such frustration in me because I didn’t care if Tim was cool. His charm was being a relatable, underdog, dork.

Then on the otherside there was Tomasi style of favoritism. Where he shows it in a more complicated fashion. He’d try to make the unlikable one in a situation likable by giving them a sympathetic moment.

Like he had a story where he throws Tim and Jason under the bus to make Damian look tough (therefore cool to younger boys), and then gave Damian a “it’s not fair moment” for sympathy to attract more emotional types.

He had Tim be a total brat to Damian (something he doesn’t do, he usually kept his thoughts internalized till one of their fights broke out, or in one instant when he thought Damian was hurting Alfred. So he wrote him OOC to make Damian be one it seem we should root for in some fashion).

So then Damian goes off to beat up Tim and Jason to prove something, even though Jason didn’t even do anything. Comparing Tim being angry someone got killed to when Damian himself used to kill. Which makes no sense.

So instead of opening up the characters ina logical way that could further their relationship. It’s like the characters are ignoring the obvious because Tomasi is desperate for people to like Damian so he adds “it’s not fair” moments to the story instead to further the idea he wants Damian to be the likable one.

Later on Tomasi writes a story after Damian is dead and Bruce tries to trigger Jason’s PTSD so he could bring Damian back (which is the kind of goofy that’s confusing and out of place, and not the kind of goofy that’s fun and adds to the experience).

And, this would … sort of be okay, if Jason didn’t already die (which was his PTSD), Bruce can be emotionally constipated and he can be a jerk because of that.

But because Bruce didn’t go through this with Jason. It implies Damian’s on a pedestal.

And later on it creates this odd tone, because logically Bruce is the bad guy. He’s traumatizing his son on purpose for his own wants while crying stuff that’s basically saying “WHY DON’T YOU CARE ABOUT ME” being emotionally abusive.

But then later on Jason agrees to help bring Damian back like we should’ve been on Bruce’s side. A lot like the story with Damian against Tim but even more confusing because Tomasi didn’t initially break Jason’s character to make who’s good or bad more obvious or at least implied.

(And on a side note Babs says “there’s only one Robin. In that same story as Jason and Tim are right there. Further implying Damian’s on a pedestal.)

It creates odd, confusing and conflicting vibes and feelings because Tomasi doesn’t spend enough time to properly delve into things. You can yell character development, but it doesn’t feel earned or even accurate. It feels confusing, and I feel its because Tomasi’s afraid of making his favs look too bad.

Tynion seemed almost afraid of showing how Tim actually is because he wants him to be cool. But on his tumblr post he showed awareness that Tim is awkward and earnest. And I can only think of one singular time Tim was awkward, and that was to make TimSteph look cute. Earnest seems to be something he tries to put as a veil over his Utopia plan. But it doesn’t add up to how it was portrayed before, as a serious plan that Tim wanted to do for the betterment of man-kind because gosh isn’t he great and selfless.

It feels like excuses more than anything else.

Having favoritism just feels like it robs the stories of depth that’s more than superficial. And sometimes they try to put what it should be over what they actually did write as if to say “SEE I KNOW WHAT I’M DOING” but it just seems so empty and a stretch.

One of the reasons why Bat-Family hasn’t felt right in the comics is because it’s portrayed so inconsistently. It’s what a specific writer wants just in the moment rather then what it should be.

They don’t wanna do what it should realistically be (what ever that even is), because then maybe their favs would look bad to them and they worry.

But the reason why I felt attached to Tim was because he made mistakes but he was so earnest and tried his best that you wanted to see him do better. They didn’t spend issues about how great his try was and why he’s such a great guy for it. They focused on how he beat himself up for it but got back up to try again because he was a good kid with a lot of heart that really was just trying his best..

What made Damian likable initially after just being that brat was that he actually learned, and how through Dick and Alfred’s teachings he got better cuz he saw better. They made the point that he was the way he was because of other people, but they didn’t draw to make him likable because of that. He grew to be likable because of how he grew as a person.

Something not taken as seriously later on. Instead of growing his morals they tried to make him cuter in ways that replace who he just was, and not who he was for better or worse, just how he went about things and interacted with people, to make him cuter and therefore easier to like, even if its not how he is. Another trick I think Tomasi used to make him likable. Because I feel like he was too afraid of him growing a certain way. Because to grow you have to admit you’re wrong. Something Tomasi only touches sometimes. And hardly at all other times. Just a tinge of a touch to imply but not a bunch of needed focus to feel real. He might have his characters grow as long as it makes who ever look good. Where in other situations it might make them look bad compared to another.

Tynion put Tim’s character on a stand-still, because he wanted to change him to appeal to an audience of some sort if not just his teenage self. The stories feel on a bubble of themselves because they don’t feel connected with what happened before, or even after since YJ thankfully went back to how he was before.

Robbing the stories of feeling as big to the characters history as I’m sure the intention was.

Fan fiction writers can do as they please. They have responsibility to no one, but I feel official writers have more responsibility seeing how big these characters are, and the attachments people made to them.

So to throw some stuff away to make your fav likable just makes things feel selfish.

I don’t feel like writers show responsibility or care when these things happen.

(And I wish Jason would stop being thrown under the bus to make what ever random person look better. Even tho the person trying to look better ends up looking like a jerk. AKA Tim and Dick in post-UTRH stories that just annoy me. Cuz why did Jason have to be treated like such crap.)

[meara-eldestofthemall]

This is a brilliant, detailed examination by thattimdrakeguy of the character assassination of the Batfamily. Marv Wolfman came over from Marvel to create Tim Drake and he used a lot of what made Marvel characters so popular in doing so. I’ve long said that the main difference between Marvel and DC characters is that Marvel has regular people trying to understand their god-like powers, while DC has god-like individuals struggling to understand normal people. 

Thattimdrakeguy is absolutely correct in that Tim is supposed to be the regular guy doing his best to keep up with everyone else. I suspect it’s also why Tim gets written either totally out of character or shoved to the backshelf. DC seems permanently stuck in archetype mode. They repeatedly fail to correctly write a character that is nuanced. DC then complains that people don’t take comic books seriously enough. 

Well, DC, if you want people to see comic books for what they really are (a modern mythology that reflects the ethical and moral evolution of a society) then start acting like you want to be taken seriously. Batman is more than just a dark, broody man with the emotional range of a salamander. Dick Grayson is more than just someone to be nice to Damian when the world is mean to him. Damian is more than either the unrepentant assassin child or the poor little boy everyone picks on. Jason is more than just someone who can turn into a psycho killer when you want some drama. Tim Drake is so much more than the smug computer geek/genius kid.

If DC wants people to see comic books as true literature, then they need to start writing like it. 

[fantastic-nonsense]

What's your favorite deranged Tim Drake moment?

inventing a fake uncle so he wasn't adopted by the guy he wanted to adopt him

sneaking back into Gotham after the bridges were blown during No Man's Land

thinking he got his girlfriend pregnant by kissing her

trying to clone his dead best friend 99 times because he missed him

joining a terrorist organization to prove that his dad wasn't dead

voluntarily becoming Bruce's emotional support child as a 13-year-old

saving the universe by playing baseball with his friends

threatening to kill himself to his older evil self's face

using his own last name as a vigilante name

threatening to beat Jason to death with a crowbar while wearing the Batsuit

Voting ended onFeb 11, 2023

[fantastic-nonsense]

Honorable mentions that didn't make it onto this poll:

faking an assassination attempt and a debilitating injury for a year because a reporter figured out his secret ID

ignoring Dick's blindingly obvious petty jealousy to continue fangirling over Blue Beetle

purposefully getting high so he stood a chance fighting Lady Shiva

smuggling a spare Batmobile to Titans Tower in San Francisco via the batarang budget

[fantastic-nonsense]

@legendary-chemistry: Please I need issue numbers for all of these

Ask and ye shall recieve. Explanations and citations of everything mentioned in this poll, with panels included:

#1: In the aftermath of his dad's death in Identity Crisis, Tim decided that instead of accepting Bruce's offer to adopt him (an offer he genuinely wanted to take), he was going to live as an emancipated minor. The courts didn't accept that plan, so he decided to...falsify several documents and hire an actor to pretend to be his Uncle Eddie. This lasted for a year in-universe before Bruce found out. Instead of being mad about it, Bruce was instead proud that Tim had managed to pull off such a difficult plan and lie to him about it for a full year...because everyone in the Batfamily handles their issues in a very healthy and productive manner, you see. This basically all happens in the post-Identity Crisis and pre-Infinite Crisis era of Robin (1993), during the Willingham era; following Infinite Crisis, Tim moves into Wayne Manor and accepts Bruce's second offer of adoption.

#2: This one happened during the No Man's Land saga. Basically: the US government declared Gotham a disaster zone after it was decimated by an earthquake. They told everyone to evacuate then blew up all the bridges connecting the city to the mainland, declaring it a 'no man's land' and abandoning everyone left behind. After several months of trying to persuade Congress to fund the reconstruction of Gotham, Bruce returned to the city along with Dick. Tim, who had fled with his dad during the initial evacuation, decided to not stay evacuated and snuck back into the city to help Bruce, Dick, and Babs.

This then sparked a national manhunt and ultimately a televised staged rescue event by the Federal Marshalls and U.S. military, largely as a political stunt maneuver, which makes Tim both a) a solid part of the reason Congress decided to rebuild Gotham and b) the closest thing DC had to a milk carton kid:

"What? You're doing what? You want what?" "A rescue, Tim. Federal agents are prepared to come into Gotham to get you." -Robin (1993) #73

Unfortunately I did not describe this event in a way that accurately describes just how absolutely deranged this entire bit of NML was in the poll. Otherwise I think a lot more people would have chosen it.

#3: as a preface I slightly misremembered this one, largely due to me not having read Tim's solo in several years. Basically, this is the beginning of Steph's teen pregnancy arc. Right before Cataclysm (the aforementioned earthquake), Steph hooked up with an old boyfriend of hers and got pregnant, but the father ran away during the aftermath of the earthquake and left her before either of them knew about the baby. Tim notices Steph acting off and asks her if she has the flu, and she laughs and instead tells him she's pregnant. To lighten the tension, she makes a joke about how it can't possibly be Tim's because they've only made out and not gone any further:

"Relax, Boy Virgin. You're not the guilty party. A couple of make-out sessions do not a baby make." -Robin #58

Tim is really just shocked by the news and needs a minute to process, and Steph's making fun of him for it. But...in my defense, it does in some ways play like Tim thinks it might be his for a hot second there. Also funny sidenote: Babs also assumes the baby is Tim's (to Tim's amusement) and has to be corrected:

"Could I ask for some non-professional advice?" "Talk to Doctor Babs, Robin." "I have this friend...my friend is pregnant." "Hold on, the 'friend' isn't you, is it? Oh. Are you–" "No, Barbara. Not guilty. Not even a suspect." -Robin (1993) #58

#4: After Superboy dies in Infinite Crisis. Tim and Cassie Sandsmark, Conner's girlfriend, both go into grief spirals and deal with this in their own super sad but also completely unhinged and fucked-up ways. Cassie joins a cult dedicated to Conner. Tim...goes a bit mad with grief and tries to clone him. His repeated attempts fail, because Tim is unaware of the particular scientific process through which Cadmus stabilized Kon's unique biology as a half-human/half-Kryptonian clone, but damn if he doesn't try. The larger context is that Kon dying is the latest in a long string of losses for Tim, who's now lost his dad, Stephanie, his step-mom Dana, his school-friend Darla, and Conner all in the span of about a year. The cloning is revealed in Teen Titans (2003) #34 and resolved in #37, the cursed issue that also includes Tim and Cassie deciding to deal with their mutual grief over Kon by getting together:

"You can't! He wouldn't be the Superboy we knew!" "He'd be close enough! We could make him close enough! I've lost too many people, Cassie. I want one back. I want my best friend back. I want Conner back. I miss him so much." -Teen Titans (2003) #37

Yeah. Grief is being dealt with exceedingly poorly on a truly unhinged level. Geoff Johns, what the fuck.

#5: Tim went a bit off the rails in the aftermath of Bruce dying in Final Crisis (2008). As previously discussed, he's lost a hell of a lot of people in a very short time. Less than six months before that, he was fighting Dick at the edge of a Lazarus Pit trying to take some water to resurrect them. So he's already not doing too hot, and then Bruce dies. While having a breakdown in the Manor's portrait gallery, Tim sees an 'ancestor's' portrait that was identical to Bruce...causing him to take a gigantic, illogical leap of faith and say Bruce wasn't dead. Which he wasn't, but of course Tim refused to actually explain his logic to everyone, so they think he's in denial and want him to get therapy. Instead, Tim runs off and goes globetrotting to find actual evidence proving Bruce was alive; stuff happens, and he ends up hooking up with Ra's al Ghul and the League of Assassins to use them for their resources. This goes...moderately well, but mostly poorly for everyone involved, and ends with Tim racing back to Gotham to save everyone from a massive powerplay Ra's instigated to try and fuck over Bruce's legacy. This all happens in the first 12 issues of Red Robin.

#6: The arc that started it all, A Lonely Place of Dying. Tim sees Batman spiraling in the wake of Robin's death, decides that Batman needs a Robin in order to keep from going off the deep end, and tracks down Dick to ask him to go back to Gotham and become Robin again. Dick refuses, Tim gets exasperated, Alfred's a Grade A enabler, and Tim eventually stares down Batman, tells him he needs a Robin, and goes "well. If no one else is going to keep you alive I'm going to do it and you can't stop me." A+ reaction to everything Tim, you've successfully chosen to parentify yourself and become Bruce's emotional support Robin at the age of 13.

#7: this happened in Young Justice (1998) #27, one of my favorite single issues. Cissie was minding her own business when she was abruptly teleported into space, where the rest of YJ is decked out in baseball uniforms and tells her about the Slag, who've conquered the world Mryg but have agreed to leave if YJ beats them in a baseball game. The stakes very quickly become the freedom of both Mryg and Earth. Yes, it's just as ridiculous and delightful as it sounds.

#8: this incident happened in the 'Titans of Tomorrow' arc of Teen Titans (2003). The Titans meet their evil future selves, who're murderous psychopaths and also intent on making sure the Titans turn out like them. So, to keep himself from becoming something horrible, Tim's first impulse is to basically...hold a gun to his own head in front of his evil future self and threaten to pull the trigger:

-Teen Titans (2003) #51

Absolute drama king behavior. There were simpler ways to get the point across that you'd become Batman only over your own dead body, Tim.

#9: this tragedy happened in Young Justice (2019). Tim was having a bit of an identity crisis and flipping between calling himself Red Robin and Robin. He and his friends take an impromptu trip through the multiverse and end up on Earth-3, home to the Crime Syndicate. Everyone meets and fights their evil counterparts; Tim's counterpart, for some reason, is a red-headed villain named 'Drake.' Bart and Earth-3!Steph both suggest he take up the name...and he does. Thankfully, it only lasted about a year before Tim reverted fully back to Robin again.

#10: Battle for the Cowl is a shitty, poorly-written, OOC mess for everyone involved. HOWEVER: it also has hands-down one of the funniest, most deranged conversations between Jason and Tim that's ever been written. They're both dressed up in Bat suits and fighting over who gets to become Batman now that Bruce is dead; I will specifically note here that Tim doesn't actually want to be Batman and is mostly only doing it because Dick is too stubborn to put the suit on and go fight Jason himself, but the point stands. Jason ambushes Tim and they absolutely have it out with each other.

I also slightly misremembered this one, because Tim actually does genuinely hit Jason with a crowbar a couple of times...right before Jason stabs him in the chest with a batarang and leaves him for dead:

They're ridiculous, your honor. But yes, one of the more unhinged Tim moments in comic book history.

I'll just skim through the honorable mentions because this response has already gotten way too long:

In the back half of Red Robin (2009), starting with Issue #15, Tim staged his own attempted assassination and faked a spinal injury for at least 6-8 months after Vicki Vale got a bit too close to figuring out he was Red Robin.

Baby Tim casually ignored Dick's blindingly obvious petty jealousy that Ted Kord was coming over to visit Babs and talk shop with her in Birds of Prey (1999) #19. The fact that Dick was jealous of Babs talking to Ted is irrelevant to the conversation, because Tim just skipping over his obvious jealousy to demand Babs introduce them? Iconic.

Move over Dick, you're clearly not Tim's favorite superhero in this moment.

Honestly both of the Tim-Shiva incidents probably require a long, convoluted explanation to properly get across how absolutely insane both events are, but...tl;dr the first time, a morally ambiguous ally he's working with, Dava, is using a drug that gives her superspeed. She kisses Tim, which introduces the drug into his system, and he promptly gets into a fight with Shiva to ensure she doesn't kill Dava. Because he's drugged and unused to having powers, he legit beats Shiva's ass to the point where he accidentally kills her and has to resuscitate her on the spot. That was Robin (1993) #51. Apologies for also slightly misremembering this one, because he didn't purposefully drug himself; Dava kissed him without his consent. I was mixing it up with the second Tim-Shiva incident in Robin #183, where he pre-game poisons her using hotel chocolate after she challenges him to a fight to the death. Still: unhinged.

In the early issues of Teen Titans (2003), Tim reveals that he's smuggled one of Bruce's spare Batmobiles all the way across the country to Titans Tower in San Francisco; he successfully pulled it off by disgusing the travel expenses as part of his batarang budget. Bart promptly crashes it while joyriding.

Even these explanations don't truly get across how absolutely unhinged some of the shit Tim says and does over the years is. I love him and I'm so sad that people think he's the boring, "normal" Robin, because it's absolutely not true. He's just as insane as all the others; he's just a lot better at hiding it.

[soleminisanction]

Like I mentioned on my previous post, there’s a particular aspect of how Steph got fired from being Robin that I find particularly interesting. (And based on your tags, @alvindraperzzz, you're going to enjoy this as well ;) )

So, just as a reminder, this is the deal that Stephanie and Bruce make when he agrees to let her be Robin:

"You're on probation. You don't learn any of the big secrets. And the first time you disobey my orders, is the precise moment you're out. No second chances."

Here's what makes this interesting: Tim also had a probationary period. It took place between 1989's "A Lonely Place of Dying" storyline and 1991's Robin miniseries, happening in scattered pieces across bits of Batman, Detective Comics, and other associated books.

Aside from changes in comm-tech between 1989 and 2003, there's only two major differences between Steph's probationary period and Tim's. First, Tim already knew the biggest of the Big Secrets, so he gets moments of interacting with Bruce and Alfred in civilian mode and even stays with them during school holidays. And second, Tim was not allowed his own costume and was forbidden from going out on patrol. Presumably, this second difference comes from a mix of Bruce's implied scheme to lure Tim back, Steph already having copious experience on the streets as Spoiler, and just general management of their differing personalities.

The important thing is, during this time, Tim was under the same restrictions as Steph: stay out of this fight, and if you disobey me you're gone. And there came a time, right at the end, where Batman wound up in a dangerous situation versus a supervillain (in this case, Scarecrow) and the would-be Robin chose to break the rules. What's interesting is the parallels and differences between the two scenes, and how, if you're paying attention, they're pretty consistent, despite their very different endings.

For one, in Tim's case, he's not initially on the scene, and he doesn't have contact with Bruce (like I said, 1980's comm-tech -- Oracle wasn't even a thing yet). This means that he isn't defying direct orders when he chooses to act. And he doesn't rush in himself right off the bat -- his first choice is actually to dial up Commissioner Gordon on the landline.

It's only after he runs out of ways to get a hold of Batman and warn him of the danger that he makes the decision to go out. And he does so very conscious of the fact that this is going to cost him Robin, in spite of the months of work he's put in.

Stephanie, on the other hand, is on the scene and has a direct line to Batman. She's chattering in his ear the whole time, to the point that he has to tell her to be quiet because she's distracting him. And when the fight gets going, he tells her repeatedly that he's doing fine, don't come in here, stay in the plane.

She lasts maybe fifteen seconds before abandoning her comms and diving in.

She doesn't wait or consider her options. She doesn't even give their deal so much as a passing thought. She simply assumes that she knows better than him and leaps in without thinking. Which mostly just demonstrates that a) she doesn't trust him which is bad when you're trying to form a partnership, and b) she can't be trusted to follow orders.

Also, frankly, she demonstrates poor judgement by completely misjudging the situation. Bruce does not need her help. Even injured, he's doing just fine. Stephanie rushing in is nothing but a distraction and, ultimately, what loses the fight.

Tim, on the other hand, judged the situation correctly. When he arrives on the scene, Batman (and innocent civilian Vicki Vale, not shown for space) is in trouble. He's been caught by Scarecrow and genuinely needs the back-up because he's being psychologically tortured.

Another parallel is that both Robins wind up in trouble as a result of coming to Batman's rescue. Which makes sense, they're teenagers versus adults with super-tech, training and horrible fear chemicals.

In Tim's case, he gets doused with fear gas (specifically "essence de trauma" because this was back when Scarecrow had specific strains of his stuff) which trapped Tim in an illusion of the very recent attack on his parents. Seriously, this is happening like, the day after they buried his mother.

But! He pulls himself out of it with the help of what might be hallucinations or might be the ghosts of Jason Todd and the Earth-1 Dick Grayson (it's never explained because this was the late 80s and nobody questions this stuff when half the creative staff is running on cocaine.) He then manages to turn the tables on Scarecrow and actually save the day.

Stephanie, on the other hand, gets herself caught.

Which, like I said, loses Batman the fight. And more importantly, it puts Steph's life in danger and she's not able to get herself free.

And it isn't like she doesn't have the opportunity, in-universe. This is where the scene ends, but Bruce recaps on the next page how Scarab, quote, "Left Robin tied up, but alive and uninjured" when she stole the Bat-plane to make her escape.

So, if you're a reasonable person, I hope you can see how there's already multiple strikes against Steph that don't really apply to Tim: she broke the rules thoughtlessly instead of with consideration, she defied direct orders instead of taking initiative on her own, and she completely misjudged the situation, putting herself in danger for no real reason and costing Batman the fight.

But now, we come to the difference that almost everyone overlooks, but I think is the real key to the whole thing: how each Robin behaves in the aftermath.

Because, see, Tim comes to Bruce immediately afterwards and owns up to everything.

I really like this scene because what Tim says here is very deliberate. He doesn't make excuses or try to deny anything. He simply explains himself and then apologizes, fully willing to accept the consequences of his actions.

It's a very mature thing to do. I couldn't have done it at 13. I'm not fully confident I could do it now, at 33. And in return, Bruce says this:

This is the story where Tim earns his wings. In the next two pages, he's given his costume and is officially made the new Robin. And it's because he demonstrates, through his actions in this story, that he understands both the weight of the legacy and the very real responsibility he's about to leap into.

Compare that to how it goes down with Steph.

Like I said in my previous post, despite Bruce saying she'd be out "the precise moment" she disobeyed him, Bruce doesn't fire her immediately after the Scarab incident. Instead, the story skips ahead by three weeks, until after Bruce has recovered from his injuries.

This is something he's shown consciously choosing to do, though he doesn't explain why. I like to think it's to give her time to consider her actions.

Note the difference in the way that Steph behaves: she shows up in her costume, with the standing assumption that they're going to go after Scarab. The only thing that she thinks would've prevented them from doing so is Batman's vision not healing.

She feels "guilty" about him being blinded, but that just demonstrates that she doesn't really understand the situation -- Batman was blinded while she was in the plane. Which implies that what she feels "guilty" about is not disobeying him sooner. The fact that she put herself in danger, the fact that she broke the rules, these things never cross her mind.

You'll note that she doesn't apologize either. Again, it's probably not deliberate, but "I feel so guilty, it was all my fault!" is not the same thing as "I'm sorry." The former is what you say when you're trying (consciously or not) to get the person you've wronged to comfort you. To tell you that it's okay, you didn't mean to do it, everybody messes up so don't feel bad. Which you'll note that Bruce does.

It's only after Steph does this, comes to him acting like nothing's wrong and they just had a little oopsie-daysie on the way to their next rip-roaring adventure, that Bruce finally drops the bomb.

Note the "direct order in the field" specification.

Stephanie only starts to admit that she did something wrong after she realizes she's going to be punished, and even then, she's not apologizing, and she's not owning up to her actions. She's making excuses, trying to wheedle out of the consequences of her own actions. And not once does she ever seem to internalize that she could have died.

And all of this is very in-keeping with her personality as established up to his point.

In short, while the two situations are very similar, Stephanie's actually demonstrates the exact opposite of Tim's: even after years of being Spoiler and multiple occasions where her own life, civilian lives, and the lives of people she supposedly cares for have been on the line, she's still treating this all as a game where the most important aspect of the outcome is how she feels about it. It's not just that she made "one mistake," this is part of a pattern for her, one that demonstrates very aptly that she does not understand the danger she's putting herself in, doesn't respect the guidance of the people who are trying to teach her, and frankly, has no interest in ever getting better, because she doesn't think she has a problem.

It can't be her fault, after all. She just made a little mistake! It's everyone else who're being unfair to her, holding her to rules and agreements she never meant to honor, and they'll all see as soon as she can prove them wrong...

And we all know where that leads.

Now, there are people who believe that this entire issue is simply unfair to Stephanie. And yeah, there's an entirely different discussion to be had about the out-of-universe decisions surrounding this story, the intention of the creators, etc. But I think everything that happens here in Robin #126 is as in-keeping for Steph's personality as the events of Batman #457 are for Tim. And I believe that, in both, Bruce's reasoning is fair and based on sound judgement, not sexism.

Still, they're very fun to compare. The nuances between the different relationships is very interesting.

[upswings]

Comic page: A chaotic scene at the former Justice League headquarters, with JLA members, DEO/government officials, and Superboy/Impulse/Robin all cleaning up after a crisis. There's crosstalk: Martian Manhunter talking with a few DEO agents -- "So you're saying that the boy will stay in your care?" "Until we can assess the extent --" "-- and potential threat of his abilities --" "-- current state of catatonia --" -- and then, Max Mercury and Impulse. Max: -- proud of you. Bart! Bart: Thanks, Max ... -- am I still grounded--? Off to the side, we also see Batman and Robin speaking. Bruce looks typically stoic. Bruce: Oracle reports that everything is back to normal. The entire Justice League was -- stumped. You and your friends did a ... fine job, Robin. Tim: Um ... yeah ... thanks. Bruce: Come on. It's a long drive back to Gotham. -- from JLA: World Without Grown-Ups #2

There's a scene from Teen Titans: Year One I'd like to put this alongside, but I'm too lazy to track it down. (Some of you probably know which one I mean anyway.)

Here, Batman is still a grim and stern contrast to the other kids' mentors, but he does manage to tell Tim the important stuff first -- hey, you did a good job; I'm proud of you. And then he thinks better of pulling him away from the party:

Superboy: Hey, Wonder -- where ya goin'? Robin: Oh, uh ... gotta go ... Robin: See ya. Robin: What are you stopping for? Batman: Robin ... Tim ... Batman: You, Superboy, and Impulse did an excellent job back there. And ... (Panel break.) Batman: ... I'm proud of you. And ... Robin: What?! Batman: I'll see you back in Gotham. -- JLA: World Without Grown-Ups #2 (id in alt text)

You can attribute this to Bruce having learned something in the years since Dick, or just to these writers finding the balance of Bruce not being a complete asshole better, but I think it's worth reiterating. It's a fanon trope that Tim got the angry, no-smiles hardass Batman because he showed up right after Jason died, but if anything canon indicates the opposite: Tim arguably gets the best treatment of the post-Crisis Batkids. When Bruce is being a jackass to him -- which does happen plenty of times, don't get me wrong -- he's usually being an equal or greater jackass to several other people.

[zahri-melitor]

I know which one you mean. It’s Teen Titans: Year One #3.

Bruce really hasn’t learned to parent properly yet and the contrast is just…yeah.

[milfkarazorel]

@lesbiananitafite

[violet-catsarelife]

(The evolution trigger is ✨Trauma✨)

Edit: since there seems to be some confusion about all the AU Jasons, here's a list of where they're from.

From Left to right Red Hooded Ninja: Young Justice cartoon Red Hood: Red Hood and the Outlaws (2016), DC comics Arkham Knight: Batman: Arkham Knight video game Red Robin: Death in the Family interactive movie Father Todd: Flashpoint: The World of Flashpoint #2, DC comics

[bi4biwallylinda]

Tim's early relationship with Cass is so funny to me I can't explain it

[chamiryokuroi]

All the different Timber through the multiple universes 🤭 Tim is so silly and so stupidly in love with Bernard in all of them and I love that for him 👏

[tripwhyer]

I love how nowadays Tim Drake's base of operations is the Robin's Nest when in the modern era he literally bought, refurbished, and lived in the movie theater the Waynes were murdered outside of. He didn't even ask Bruce his thoughts until after the purchase. Why did he do that

[kiragecko]

(He also chose it because it's what he landed in front of when Damian cut his line and tried to kill him (in attempt no. 3?))

-

I actually want to talk about how essential to his characterization I think the theater was.

The Tim fandom likes to joke about Tim stealing other people's names, and being unable to chose anything original. They also joke about him being amoral, one step from becoming a villain. I think all of these have a single root. Tim defines himself through other people.

He grew up in frequently shifting boarding schools, with no caring adults that made an impact. His special interests were a boy who gave him one hug when he was young, and the man who rescued that boy. His parents are usually traveling, even during school breaks. He uses a common neurodivergent masking technique of keeping disconnected enough from his emotions that he can logic his way through problems instead.¹ When he first shows up, he can't figure out that telling Dick his name might help Dick trust him. He and his dad both forget his birthday, and his dad often buys him gifts that Tim doesn't want but his dad does. He had two fathers, a pseudo-grandpa, and a big brother, at the time, but still had to teach himself how to drive. He's extremely skilled at fitting in, but awkward when trying to be himself.

This kid has been neglected and tends to only value his use to other people. He puts a lot of thought into his actions, but very very little into his desires or feelings. He both doesn't trust himself, and tries to rely entirely on himself. He assumes people forget about him whenever he isn't around, and that he has no right to expect differently.

He deals with this by building himself out of other people's stuff. Their morals. Their names. Their mannerisms. Their symbols. Things that connect him to them, and seem trustworthy and stable.

He cares about things based on how much his loved ones care about them. He's probably never considered how HE feels about killing, because not killing is incredibly important to Bruce and Dick. He frequently ignores rules if nobody is around to notice, because their affect on others is what's important to him. His morality feels weird to people because his investment isn't 'normal' and emotion-based. He didn't get this stuff modeled to him, as a kid. He didn't internalize it. He figured it out intellectually, by watching vigilantes from a distance, or later, by figuring out which actions were crimes he was supposed to stop.

He's Robin because Dick and Jason gave Robin meaning. When he needs a new name and costume, he picks the one that Jason was acting really possessive about a few weeks before. He makes puns and jokes while patrolling, because that's what his predecessors did. (His own jokes tend to be much drier.) He's the best 'little brother' he can be for Dick, but the best 'partner' he can be for Bruce; and his friendship with the Core 4 is entirely unique to them, defined to match how very weird they are.

Of COURSE a Tim who's trying to figure out how to be an adult would be drawn to a building that's meaningful to Bruce, in a neighbourhood that's meaningful to Jason. Of course transforming this place of pain, endings, and beginnings into HIS place of healing, endings, and beginnings is attractive! He needs the connections! He needs the value! He doesn't think it gets any value by being HIS, so it needs to come with value preinstalled.

-

¹ I learned this technique to avoid the emotional blowups executive dysfunction can't prevent. My sister and husband learned it to make up for difficulty recognizing emotions. You may form your own conclusions about the reasons Tim might have found it useful.

[tripwhyer]

All shitposting aside, your fantastic analysis really hits home when looking at the final panel of the Red Robin series where Tim finally starts to define his decisions without hanging them on top of Bruce's or Dick's or the rest of the Batfamily. Tim is owning both his plan for Boomerang to die and his decision to spare him, and recognizes the resulting friction with Bruce when he stands by the former as much as the latter. He took an entire series to get here, and it still ends on a huge question mark and uncertain future for Tim because his personal hero journey hasn't been self-defined before and he's barely started learning.

He started off the RR series by saying that he "only serves one man, and he isn't here" (Bruce was still on his doctor who adventure). His first half of the series is working pretty much alone (Tam was the victim of a ton of misogynoir during this arc, and isn't a character or partner to Tim as much as she is a narrative tool, sadly).

He works with the Titans and Pru, but in an episodic way rather than sustained support. But once he's back in Gotham and patroling regularly with Dick and Damian, he says "more than that, it feels right. Yes, even Damian as Robin." He clicks back into place once he's in Gotham with the Bats, and it's reflected in the entire tone of the series shifting brighter during that time.

But even once he returns, he learned a lot from working on his own and is starting to define value for himself! While wrestling with how he makes moral decisions outside of Batman!

This comic series has some deep flaws but the ending really drives home who Tim is and how he operates. It's a well-deserved, open-ended conclusion to his pre-Flashpoint characterization.

[kiragecko]

#tim drake#dc#into the soup#seriously their analysis above has me reeling#long post#One thing tho is that pre-flashpoint he didn't really choose the name Red Robin even to spite Jason#he didn't name himself as much as it was the name of convenience. that was when he was actively cutting himself off from bat family#association via his costume and MO shifting#when he introduces himself to Dick as Red Robin he simply says 'Red Robin seems to have stuck'#he didn't want to spite Jason pre flashpoint because he's still working through guilt over Jason's Murder Spree ™ after freeing him from#Arkham. His relationship with Tim that the fandom is more familiar with is mostly post-Flashpoint - via @misosuper

I agree that he didn't want to spite Jason. I disagree with him not choosing to be Red Robin. But I recognize that it's complicated.

Tim first saw the Red Robin costume while Anarky (Ulysses Armstrong) was briefly running around in it. Red Hood was there at the same time, and visibly upset to see someone in HIS costume. (He only wore it for an issue, but Alternate Murder!Bruce gave it to him! It's important!) Tim confiscates the costume, gets a bunch of burns when Anarky blows him up, and then puts it on to protect his healing neck when he decided to take Anarky down. At this point, he's just Robin in a backup costume. (ignore the fact that Jason, Ulysses, and Tim are all VERY different sizes and can't just wear each other's clothes.)

But after he loses Robin, that's the costume he chooses. It's not an alternate costume any more. He knows it was Jason's, because Jason told him. I don't think he has any plan to upset Jason by taking it. I think he took it because it had meaning to someone in his family and he wants the connection.

It probably DID upset Jason. I don't think they see each other again before the reboot, but it would make sense. But I don't think that was Tim's plan. If Tim had been trying to upset anyone, he would have taken the Renegade costume.

[kiragecko]

#He also specifically mentions taking that costume because it was already 'tainted'#and he knows he's going to cross lines he wouldn’t have crossed before as Robin#so like I think he wanted a name and costume with the connection (as mentioned)#and he took that one because it already had blood on its gloves - via @oneeyedoctogod

I must have skimmed over this line. TIM! He has some issues with Jason that make me uncomfortable. 'Tainted.' Ugh.

[ectonurites]

Who was Dodge?

So Dodge was this younger kid who really wanted to be a superhero. He stole this belt from his dad (who was a scientist ya know) that lets him teleport and starts trying to fight crime all on his own

He looks up to Tim as Robin and wants to work with him, and have Tim teach him how to be a hero and stuff.

(Robin #153)

However Tim says no way because, well, this is after One Year Later, Tim's lost a lot of people in the hero game and doesn't want another kid getting involved let alone one he'd feel responsible for. This is also during the evil!Cass arc so Tim is... extra cranky.

(Robin #153)

Dodge continues to tag along and try to do hero work himself since Tim won't mentor him, and actively gets in the way on a kidnapping case Tim's trying to solve

(Robin #154)

As part of Tim's plans to solve this thing, he lets himself get kidnapped as Tim Drake so he can get to the missing kids and to the source of all of it, but Dodge shows up again... and things go wrong. While trying to get the bad guy, a piece of what Tim threw goes off course and hits the belt that gave Dodge his transportation powers, which ends up trapping him in a coma.

(Robin #155)

This is what happened directly before the Suicide Prevention comic I've talked about before, and is one of the main reasons Tim feels like utter shit in that issue.

Then, in the following issues during Tim & Klarion's little adventure, we learn that Dodge's powers re-activated and he transported himself out of the hospital.

(Robin #158)

And now... he's angry. His belt's powers have fused with him so he's just a general teleporter who looks all funky and kinda transparent and glowy. And he's very angry at Tim specifically. So he starts trying to form a team to take Robin down.

(Robin #161)

However even in all of this he more just wants to mess things up for Robin, not like, actually kill him or anything. But the team he assembles have different things in mind and absolutely want to kill Robin. Everything gets out of his control and he realizes that he fucked up here, but the bad guys threaten his family so he stays with the group in their plot to kill Robin.

It's then revealed that one member of the group he'd assembled was actually Rose undercover (and Zach Zatara pretended to be Tim as a decoy during all this too). Tim was trying to get Dodge out of the situation with the villains, and take them down himself with his team.

(Robin #166)

During the big fight though Dodge does what he does and ignores Tim telling him to stay out of it. He helps in taking down the bad guys but his teleportation powers interact badly with one of them and he... fades away

(Robin #166)

Tim doesn't want to believe he's dead but he never gets seen again :(

I miss him... he was just a little boy... babey... and this is another one of those things that will forever weigh heavily on Tim's mind.

[meara-eldestofthemall]

The storyline between Tim and Dodge always struck me as ironic when you consider how he became Robin. Yes, Tim's original purpose was to get Dick Grayson to reclaim the mantle but he refused to take "no" for an answer, despite Batman's objections.

Tim kind of forced his way in too. Granted the motivations were starkly different. Dodge wanted to be a hero for the fame. Tim did it to save Batman and by extension Gotham. It was an interesting paradox.

[macdenlover]

it came to my realization that 99% of my fandom related headaches would be cured if everyone understood this

[macdenlover]

a comic i made is being sold on a shelf at my favorite cb store as of today and this post is still my biggest accomplishment of the day

[neil-gaiman]

This headcanon guide, if understood, would also reduce the Asks I get by about half.

[aenxiome]

Hey, I’m trying to write a fic and there’s something I’m not sure of and I don’t have access to the comics.

How long was Batman stuck in time? I know how it happened, Darkseid, final crisis, and I know Tim had something to do with getting him back, but how long was he gone?

From what I’ve researched it couldn’t have been too long, afew months to a year at most, Dick was filling in for a bit, but I can’t narrow it down more than that.

Does anyone have a better timeline?

[kelpiecodyne]

(Cracks knuckles) Okay, time to see how good my knowledge of this era is.

First off, there is no canon timeline for exactly how long Bruce is dead. It is very much something you have guess from context clues and hints...which to be honest, thanks to the joy that is comic book timelines, is an absolute nightmare. Especially since several comics during this time directly contradict themselves.

But, if you try and find logic in what they offer, you can conclude that Bruce is ‘dead’ for approximately 5-6 months, and most likely dies at some point in July.

Our first solid clue is in Batman #687, where Bruce's ‘death’ in Final Crisis is established as exactly four weeks earlier.

This is post Battle For The Cowl (which when you think how much happened in the Robin and Nightwing comics up until then is kind of hilariously quick). But Bruce is dead approximately one month before Dick becomes Batman, Damian becomes Robin, and Tim leaves to find proof that Bruce isn’t dead.

This suggests Bruce died in July of that year, because in Batgirl #1 (2009), Stephanie Brown begins attending college, which typically starts August/September, and gives us a solid date point to extract other times from.

It’s hard to say exactly when Tim left because Red Robin starts with a time skip, but given that Dick and Damian seem relatively comfortable with each other this issue, it’s probably not been immediately after, so Stephanie likely becomes Batgirl a few weeks or so after Dick becomes Batman at the very most, so by this point we're in late August or early September.

Now, not long after Dick becomes Batman, Blackest Night happens, and this has to be prior to Tim going to Iraq. But the closest thing Tim gives us to a timeline is this: (Red Robin #1)

So no clue how long he’s been running round before he’s called back to Gotham for Blackest Night. Batman & Robin have a few story arcs before this point, and are comfortable with each other by Blackest Night, so it’s been at least another month since Dick became Batman, taking us solidly into late September or October.

Anyway, Blackest Night happens, and issue #8 confirms that Bruce is alive – but for unknown reasons, they don’t bother to mention this to any bat.

Since they don’t bring this up, Tim returns to Europe, and gets caught up in Ra’s al Ghul shenanigans less than week later. We know he doesn't immediately fall into Ra's clutches due to meeting with Kon in Paris after Blackest Night (Adventure Comics #3), but he's still in Paris by the time the assassin trio catch up with him. Given how fast he'd been burning through cities, it must have been pretty soon after. More on this later.

After Blackest Night, Damian gets shot and becomes paralysed (Batman & Robin #6). This requires surgery through Talia, extending this time period to allow for recovery. (Batman & Robin #8)

Also during this time, Dick, unaware that the JL have realised Bruce is alive, ends up dumping the not-Bruce in a Lazarus Pit (Batman & Robin #7).

After which, he learns Bruce is alive, and Dick and Alfred start searching for clues too (Batman & Robin #10).

There’s nothing in Batman and Robin to suggest how long this period is however, and couldn’t find anything in Justice League (though didn’t look too hard). Damian is on his feet by #10, so it's been at least two weeks. But it does suggest Tim isn’t back yet, meaning he must still be with the League, so we look to Red Robin.

Despite zero time specifics in that whole damn run (they literally just refer to the time skips as 'before' and current as 'now'), there is context clues in Red Robin for how long he’s gone – specifically, the day he leaves, after about a month of Hush pretending to be Bruce and spending money like crazy, Lucius Fox demands to see Tim so they can activate the emancipation/share contingency (Red Robin #1).

Tim is either already gone or preparing to leave at this time, so when Lucius learns (through unknown means) that Tim is in Berlin, he sends his daughter Tam to retrieve him. However, she's at least a day behind (it's stated that it's approximately 29 hours between Tim's last interaction with the assassin trio in Berlin and arriving in Baghdad (Red Robin #3), and when she eventually catches up with him in Iraq, she’s immediately abducted with him to The Cradle, where the two of them remain for some time (Red Robin #5)

Again, we are not given a timeline, but since Tim has just lost an organ and came close to death, if we give him comic-book-timeline to recover, it’s probably at least four-six weeks in Ra’s custody minimum.

It’s likely not longer either, since Lucius is not concerned about Tam when he brings her up in conversation with Alfred, that suggests it’s not been long since he asked her to go. A month to six weeks to track down a vigilante without hearing back doesn’t seem unreasonable. Any longer and Lucius would probably be more concerned due to the lack of communication (Red Robin #7).

So let’s say just over a month to get Tim back to Gotham. If we try and figure out where that fits in the Gotham timeline, he’s probably back three weeks or so after the Not!Bruce Lazarus plot at the earliest, given Damian is on his feet at this point as well, but Dick and Damian have a Barbatos related arc to finish up before Tim shows up too. so it’s not unreasonable to say we’re in late October, possibly even November at this point.

One final thing to note, is at some point between Tim returning to Gotham and Bruce returning, Damian joins the Titans for a brief period (Teen Titans #89).

Although Beast Boy’s definitely being sarcastic here, it’s suggested that Damian has only been Robin for a short time, lending to the '3 month's as Robin' timescale. And Damian joins after Tim returns, as Tim is surprised to learn Damian is with the Titans (Teen Titans #91), after having reunited with them in the showdown with Ra’s (Red Robin #12), and would have learned if Damian joined beforehand from them at that point.

So, given that timeline, it has been approx 3-4 months of Bruce being 'deceased.' There’s also a few Gotham storylines that happen after this point where Bruce is clearly not back, but it also can't be too long after this before Rip Hunter and the Justice League manage to pinpoint Bruce and bring him home, as he is still missing when Tim gets Lynx arrested in Red Robin #13, but is back home before #17 when Tim frees her, which is noted in Bruce Wayne: The Road Home #Red Robin.

So less than a month from Tim returning to Gotham for the Justice League to rescue Bruce and bring him home, which means late October, or possibly November.

With all this said, unless someone else knows of any other time specific moments mentioned in comics, the basic timeline as far as I can piece it together is:

July – Bruce ‘dies’

August – Dick becomes Batman, Damian becomes Robin, Tim becomes Red Robin & leaves Gotham

August/September – Stephanie becomes Batgirl

September/October – Blackest Night, Tim gets abducted by the League, Damian is temporarily paralysed and Dick tries to resurrect the wrong Bruce

October – Tim Returns to Gotham, Damian joins the Titans

October/November – The Justice League Retrieve Bruce, Damian leaves the Titans

[danny-chase]

You ever think about Donna coming back to life right smack dab in the middle of a crisis event and her best friend in the biggest personal crisis of his life (and nearly dying in the crisis) and her team/family in the titans split into two with the team holding onto the old namesake hardly having any of the same members as when she died. Like when she died not everything was good, her friends still had their challenges and issues, but I can't help but think that she'd see all the turmoil and fallout after her death and end up blaming herself (even though, clearly dying isn't her fault). Feeling like everything rides upon her being okay and maintaining that perfect facade. Anyways-

[thekidthesuperkid]

The “Bats are always the leaders of their teams” trope is actually a Robin trait, not a Bat trait, and in this essay I will

[thekidthesuperkid]

OKAY, so...

We all know of the idea that all Bats must at some point be leader of the team they're on, and there is of course the automatic assumption that it started with Bruce. It did not. This trait began with Dick and was transferred over time to Bruce, and of course the other Robins, and because of various retcons, revisions, and retellings, it was eventually cemented as canon that leadership skills started with Bruce.

But let's look at the chronological history of the teams they've been on.

::read more::

The first team that Batman was part of was the JSA from the 40's. Him and Robin weren't actually official members of the team, because editorial had a rule that when a character had their own series, they would become honorary members instead of full members, and Batman had had his own series pretty much from the beginning. Batman and Robin showed up in the stories sometimes, but either way, the way the team worked meant there wasn't really a leader of the team. Their stories were consistently structured so the members met up to discuss their current cases, split up to work on the case individually, then joined up to wrap up the case as a group. When there was a crisis, or a potential new member, or any other decision to be made, the members voted on what should happen. There was however a chairman. The chairman was usually Hawkman, but Jay Garrick and Alan Scott also filled the role sometimes.

Then there was the soft reboot in the sixties and the JLA was created. Interestingly, Batman wasn't even part of the team initially. He was later revealed to be a "non-participating member", and then over time was gradually added into more and more stories. There were chairmen and leaders on this version of the team, but it was a rotating position. Batman was not the leader. But meanwhile...the Teen Titans were being created, and Robin was immediately made the leader. Roy and Wally sometimes used to challenge his leadership (especially Roy), and there were occasional missions where the team split up and someone else had to take charge of the second group, or Robin just wasn't there and someone else stepped up, but Robin was the real leader, and continued to be for the entire series.

Later, in the early 80's, Bruce created the Outsiders team so that it could do missions that the Justice League couldn't for political reasons. This team continued for several years, and Batman started out as its leader, but it later split apart because of dissatisfaction with how he was running the team (read: the team got mad at Bruce withholding information, Bruce tried to disband the team in response, and the other members decided to continue the team without him). For the rest of the Outsiders' existence, there is a lot of inconsistency about whether Batman is even on the team, let alone leading it. Additionally, for a couple years in the mid-80's, there was a new version of the Justice League called Justice League Detroit. It's leaders were Aquaman and the Martian Manhunter. Batman wasn't even on the team. But at the same time as all that was happening, the New Teen Titans series was going strong, and it was a team that started with Raven seeking out superpowered heroes to help her, and Robin to lead. Dick eventually left Robin, and spent a while trying to figure out his identity before deciding on Nightwing. He stayed leader for almost the entire series.

After Crisis on Infinite Earths, during the Legends miniseries, the Detroit version of the Justice League disbanded and Doctor Fate gathered several heroes that formed what eventually became the JLI. Maxwell Lord took over the team soon after it started. He was the owner, and different members led the team in the field. Bruce started out leader but stepped down fairly quickly. Martian Manhunter replaced him. A few others also assumed leadership of the League during that time, including Wonder Woman.

About mid-nineties, Dick left the Titans and stopped being the leader (pretty much the first time in Titans history of the team existing without him!) because Batman editorial wanted him to go back to being a Bat character. Roy took over leadership of the Titans, although that seems to have been a pretty unpopular period for the Titans. Shortly afterwards a new Justice League series was started, Morrison's JLA. It was an entirely new team, and it included Batman. He was not the leader however. Iirc, Batman sometimes came up with missions for the team or helped with tactical planning, but Superman was the chairman. The two of them as well as Wonder Woman were starting to really be given priority in the stories because of popularity which meant they sort of acted as leaders, but it seemed to be more because they were the big-name characters.

A little while later, the Titans re-formed again, and immediately decided on Dick as their leader. At the same time, Young Justice was being created. Tim was the leader initially, but partway through the series, Tim stepped down as leader and Cassie replaced him. There were several issues around Tim's leadership because his teammates were constantly having trouble trusting him because of the secrets he kept, and at the same time, Bruce's teammates were having similar problems.

Eventually both young hero teams disbanded because of the events of Graduation Day, and afterwards, the Core 4 joined a new Teen Titans team, and Roy created a new Outsiders team, with Dick as the leader. There didn't seem to be one specific leader for the Titans at the start, though the older Titans were mentoring and training the younger ones. Eventually Cassie officially became the leader of the team.

The Outsiders went through several changes until it was back to being Bruce's team, although he didn't seem to actually lead the team for very long after he took over. These days the Outsiders are led by Black Lightning. Meanwhile the Trinity was still dominating League stories, but it was officially being led by Black Canary as chairwoman.

Then Diana killed Maxwell Lord and left the League because of it, Bruce was "killed" in Final Crisis, and Clark left Earth to live on New Krypton. Sometime after that, Dinah resigned from being chairwoman and Dick as Batman formed his own version of the Justice League. He led the team. (Also, before FC, Jason teamed up with Kyle Rayner, Donna Troy and a few other characters. He was very far from leading the team.)

After the reboot, everything was a mess. Editorial took the opportunity to erase all precedents for their characters and changed up whatever they wanted to. The New52 Titans series had (a weird version of) Tim as leader, and was pretty disliked, and Damian started his own Titans team, but that also didn't go well, both in terms of story quality and in terms of how things went for the team itself. Jason was made leader of the Outlaws, which had some fairly negative reactions. Babs was given the Birds of Prey team again, though her original reason for forming the team was because she needed field operatives to do what she couldn't as Oracle, and without Oracle the base reasoning for the team forming was gone. Dick's Titans were nonexistent for a while, then were brought back with some extremely messy continuity, then later they were put in the Titans Academy series which...was not enjoyed by everyone. And the Justice League comics had Bruce as leader right from the start.

TL;DR: Dick Grayson has consistently been leader of the teams he was on, but no one else has. Leadership abilities started with him, then gradually got transferred to Bruce's character and since then it has been assumed that it's a skill the entire Batfamily has, and most of them have been made leader at some point or another by writers, regardless of actual leadership ability. And basically DC doesn’t like to admit that someone is better than Batman at something, especially if it’s one of his kids.

[ectonurites]

can you please explain what happened on tim’s sixteenth birthday if it’s not too much trouble?

Anonymous said: what did Bruce do on Tim's birthday???

@gothamsiren4: i’m afraid to ask what happened but what happened

I would have just included screenshots of the other ask + reply but I need the image space for panels . tumblr and this stupid image limit is going to kill me

ALRIGHT LETS GO OVER ROBIN #116-120!

So, Tim just had a whole adventure from #112-#115 where he was out of town undercover (it was a WILD time. there was a giant monster, this random guy Stephen that could let Tim walk with him through the woods really fast, Tim accidentally wore a mullet wig nearly the whole time- chaos, truly) and when he gets back to Gotham he is fucking exhausted and his sense of time is all sorts of screwed up- something Dana notices as soon as he gets home, when he doesn't recognize an important date coming up that week.

(Robin #116)

So Dana calls up Steph & Ives to come help celebrate, and they all give Tim a particularly surprising surprise party- because he forgot his own birthday! Things are going great until the end of opening presents- where Cole (the guy who works the elevator in their building) has joined the party and it's revealed a mysterious box was left for Tim earlier and they have no idea who it's from.

This makes Tim's Robin anxiety kick into high gear, leaving him paranoid basically the rest of the night

(Robin #116)

Later after the festivities, Tim brings the box to Bruce to start examining it, and Bruce ya know forgot Tim's birthday (Alfred didn't though <3)

(Robin #116)

They do some analysis, follow some leads, and narrow down the guy that delivered it at least. But ultimately they don't get very far before the box… activates, while Tim is alone away from Bruce. It shows a hologram message apparently from a dystopian future Alfred (from the year... 2012... for reference, this issue was written in 2003) who says that in his time period someone in the Bat Family is going to go bad and cause the bad future- and that Tim needs to stop them in present day before it’s too late. But the message is disrupted by Future!Alfred getting shot and killed with some laser thing before he can say who it was, right in front of Tim.

(Robin #117)

Which... well all of this is a lot on Tim's mind. He's torn between 'is it fake or real' and ultimately doesn't tell Bruce about what happened, instead deciding to try to handle this on his own. He at first thinks okay- it's gotta be fake, but who is trying to manipulate me with this and what are they trying to get me to do. He thinks someone is tailing him, and his prime suspect is Jaeger: a guy he'd gone up against a few times previously when dealing with monsters (Man-Bats and Charaxes). He runs into Dick (bc he wanted to wish Tim a happy belated birthday) who helps out- they stage a very convincing (they are ridiculous) fake fight to try to fool anyone potentially trailing Tim, this way Dick could then follow at a distance to observe and see if someone really was following him.

Ultimately though, nobody was tailing him, but Tim keeps investigating the Jaegar idea until eventually finding out he's actually in jail, so clearly not involved in this. When Tim gets home he's got an urgent message from Bruce, about some crazy new high-tech interrogation methods he used on the guy they tracked down, Yak, that had delivered the box to Tim's house and apparently unknowingly made it under a kind of hypnotic state.

(Robin #118)

And the voice from these recordings Bruce was able to get from Yak's mind, that gave him commands for building the box and delivering it? That's a voice Tim recognizes alright- it's the voice of the future Alfred! So now Tim is distressed because the hologram of future Alfred being real and him needing to stop a teammate going bad to prevent a bad future... is suddenly the most plausible scenario, and the only lead he's got.

Tim tries to go hook Yak back up to Bruce's new machine himself, to see if maybe the name that future Alfred got cut off from saying was somewhere hidden in his mind, but Yak had escaped his holding cell and in the ensuing fight he breaks the machine, so Tim can't use it. Instead he's stuck, forced to be paranoid about his friends- investigating them to see who could be the person that goes bad.

(However we do get a slight detour from the main plot to check in on some stuff with Steph- who'd been lying to Tim for the last few issues. Since finding out her dad died, rather than going home and facing her mom like she promised she would in Robin #111, she'd been renting a room on her own. Tim helps do some mediation with Steph and Crystal, so that she can feel comfortable going home again. Then that night he resumes investigation)

He trails Cass first (remember, this is 2003. She’s still like the newest Batfam member and the two of them aren't that close yet), but comes to no conclusions. He theorizes possible scenarios for how it could be Dick, then Babs, and we find out he spends about 10 days straight trailing basically all his Gotham allies trying to figure out who it could be.

He forms a plan to try to test his allies, by writing up a whole planned manifesto of the sort of ideals that led to the bad future according to that future Alfred, with the idea of showing/explaining it to each one and gauging their reaction (thinking that someone who didn't react extremely negatively could be the person who goes bad). However before trying this method out on anyone, he gets paranoid that maybe him doing this is the thing that plants the seed in someone's mind- and freaks out a bit... before-- WHAT?!

Future Alfred comes back- not just a hologram this time! A real physical person! He explains that more things happened in the future- yes Tim saw him die its okay they were able to fix it- but ultimately Tim starts noticing holes in his story, for example his robot arm suddenly being on a different hand than last time.

(Robin #120)

Tim rips off this guy's mask and it's- PRESENT DAY ALFRED?

(Robin #120)

The "Have a drink, sir. I don't care what your birthdate says-- after tonight, you are of age." as Alfred pulls out a flask fucking killed me the first time I read this, it's such a funny line in the middle of this tense mess.

But yeah, it's revealed this was all Bruce's doing. Tim calls it a trick, Bruce calls it training. The entire situation was basically a test of Tim's abilities, to take him to the "next level" and Bruce is overall pleased with how he did... despite then going on to point out some of the flaws in how Tim handled the situation.

(Robin #120)

"I mean really, time travel?" is infuriating. Bruce. You know damn well time travel has happened in this universe.

Timmy is, understandably, fucking pissed.

(Robin #120)

This is one of the not-too-common instances of Tim swearing (like, in a way that needs to be censored. That's what's rare for him, he uses 'damn' and 'hell' regularly like most teen characters). He kinda quits- and very seriously contemplates doing so for real because this whole thing seriously fucked with his head... but after venting to Steph about it, he ultimately decides to go back to Bruce.

But it uh... doesn't get... resolved. Bruce does not apologize. Tim doesn't ask him to. The story just... ends. The ending feels extremely rushed imo. This was the last issue of Lewis' run though (Willingham's run starts the next issue) so idk maybe he thought he'd have more time to spend on the aftermath and that just didn't happen, I don't really know how that transition between writers went since ya know it was 18 years ago.

But yes, anyways, while a lot of these events happen after the actual day, this all started with Bruce having the box delivered to Tim on his 16th birthday.

A slight side tangent to this already very long post- but I do wanna bring back up how Meghan Fitzmartin talked about picking Bernard for Sum of Our Parts because of Tim's mental/emotional state (feeling unsure about himself and his place in things) around the time he met Bernard... because this story is definitely something we could consider part of that. This birthday arc ends in Robin #120, and Tim first meets Bernard the following issue in Robin #121! Very shortly after that, Tim nearly decides to quit again- because he thinks he killed Johnny Warlock (in #123-124). When he gets out of that funk and decides to go full swing into Robin again- that's right when his dad finds out and makes him quit in #125 (Issues #126-128 are Steph's time as Robin... then we begin War Games. Tim goes back to Robin at the start of Act 2 of the event, in Detective Comics #798, so between Robin #129 and #130). As evidenced by this constant back and forth, this is absolutely a period where Tim is going through a lot of uncertainty and identity issues.

[disco-troy]

The part that always drives me insane about this story arc is the end

Its the way Tim never doubted Bruce through the course of the story.... Cass or Dick or Babs could be evil but he doesn't even imagine Bruce to. And then after getting mad at Bruce and quitting, Tim realizes he can't leave Bruce

Tim narration: And then it hits me. Sharp and Hard. I've been sitting here imagining my new, low-pressure life. Being with Steph, hanging out with Ives. Watching TV with my folks. Studying at the library. Going for random walks. And once a month or so, taking the train out to see Bruce, catch up see how he's doing. Just old friends now. Each doing their own thing

And then suddenly I realize that that last part is a total fairy tale. If I quit robin, Bruce won't be in my life anymore. At all. I'll probably never see him again. Never hear of batman at all. None of them will be in my life anymore. Not even out of their costumes. They won't be able to. Even Dick...

SOMETIMES I WONDER IF THAT WAS THE ACTUAL TEST?! NOT THAT TIM COULD DETECTIVE AND DOUBT EVERYONE BUT THAT HE WOULD ALWAYS TRUST BRUCE ABOVE ALL ELSE AND HE WOULD COME BACK HE ALWAYS COMES BACK

And so Tim goes back....

Tim: I'm not going to ask you to apologize for what you did Bruce: I hope not.

No apology. No acknowledgment.

[mycroftrh]

As Damian’s 16th birthday approaches, Tim gets more and more anxious. He spends more and more time with Damian, until they’re almost attached at the hip. Offers, with a tone of suppressed desperation that does not suffice to make Damian agree, to take Damian out of the country for his birthday. Starts to stand firmly in between Bruce and Damian every time they’re in the same room, twitching every time Bruce moves toward them.

Damian’s 16th birthday passes without incident, if you don’t count Tim hovering at his shoulder the entire time, armed, checking every present before letting Damian take it.

Tim is staring at the clock as it hits midnight, and his body goes almost limp, the constantly-held tension of weeks dropping. Then his face fills with confusion. Then goes blank. He leaves, with the party still in swing, and Damian feels the absence at his side immediately, the spot just behind him that he’s grown used to having a protective presence in finally empty.

No one sees Tim for weeks.

[allthatlovesabout]

the funniest thing about smallville is the fact that they basically took your typical lighthearted #thepoweroflove superman story and put a succession character in there. like lex is out here trying to escape the Cycles and suffering under the thumb of his abusive father while clark is like man i wish my dad would let me play football :/ like i love smallville clark, he's one of my favorite guys of all time, but he is incapable of understanding why lex is the way he is, not only because he grew up with a family that loved and cared for him but because he is living inside a completely different genre. he's out here saving people, making the world a better place through goodness and compassion, while lex is sitting inside his million dollar estate on his fourth glass of bourbon talking about how he doesn't know how to love people because he was raised in a business instead of a family. and both of these are very good and interesting stories, but they are so fundamentally different that i think the show struggles to reconcile them at times, which is why you have scenes where clark is like "well lex you should've just tried harder with your dad because love and family conquers all in the end" while lex is just sitting there looking at him like he's insane.